Winning Time: The Rise Of The Lakers Dynasty - General Discussion

[TV Diva Queen]

When McKinney and Westfield were in the Hamburger Hamlet, McKinney was dissing the place asked Westfield "what's good here", Westfield replies "hamburger, ribs, onion strings" (paraphrased) and McKinney orders wings and fries.  subtle dis right there.....

[DoctorAtomic]

I grew up in Celtics land, though not really a fan. I don't really recall anything prior to 1984 mainly because basketball wasn't on TV much. 

I'm fairly sure I saw the Knicks, 76ers, Celtics regularly, but not the Lakers until then. The Finals weren't live TV. 

I didn't know anything about Magic and Westhead. Or Norm even. I came in when it was already Riley. 

I know the show is playing up the Celtics rivalry, but the Lakers still had something going with the 76ers too, and I think they could emphasize that more. 

[UrbanShocker]

Growing up in the 80's the story I always heard was that Magic (and him alone) got Westhead fired.  The show is basically saying West, Riley and Sharman were also basically on board with getting rid of Westhead too, and maybe they were.  But the show so far has been mostly accurate with that story.  

As for Westhead's "system", it did eventually pay off ... in college basketball when he became the head coach of Loyola Marymount University.  His system then was to be as up-tempo as possible, and the star of that team was Hank Gathers, who lead the nation in both points and rebounds in the same season (which is unheard of). Unfortunately Gathers had a heart condition, and when he decided to not take his medication because it was making him sluggish, Gathers had a fatal heart attack on the court during LMU's conference tournament game in 1990.  Westhead (unfairly) took some of the blame for that and went back to the NBA immediately afterwards. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I remember that. I never made the connection that it was Westhead because I didn't know of him before.

I don't know if the system really paid off. He was successful in a weak conference, but they only got as far as the Elite Eight under him once and got blown out by UNLV. They lost in prior years to better teams that still outscored them in the 100s. The top college teams from the 90s never adopted the style. 

That kind of goes to my prior point that his system can plug anyone one in. That makes sense in college, and even then only to a point because you need shooters.

The scores they showed in the last episode were the historical scores. Whether West said what he said in the episode and in irl or not, they were squeaking by teams they were far better than. They weren't losing because of Magic not trying. They lost because they were all getting to their spots instead of playing basketball. Even then, the 'system' was a lot of dumping to Kareem. 

McKinney's concept was also transition and movement, but it allowed for the players flexibility than just run to spots. The triangle is similar. You can't be waiting for you point guard to plod up the court every possession and calling out every single play. 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

I can see why Buss thought maybe Magic was just blowing off steam. He was young. I can also see why he wouldn't want to go through another coaching change during the season. 

Nowadays, players have much more control of their own movement, and they should, so back then, this must have been unbelievable. I can get the public blowback. 

The scene with Magic and Buss was fantastic. I know it's played like Magic is being petulant, but he's not wrong. Bill and West are saying the same thing. 

I did like the subtle 'shut up and ball' crack Magic made too. 

Really though, Buss offered Magic the 25 years. Magic just wanted something beyond only the 5 years. It's kind of on Buss. 

Clarke is absolutely brilliant. I don't know if West was that irl, but I so want to be that. I loved that Riles took a page and became Coach when he punched out the chalkboard. West looked gleeful when Riley threw him off the bench. 

I would like to know what the offense is. Clearly, it is more like McKinney than the System, but I don't think they were just going out and winging it either. 

I can't imagine Kareem roller skating. I'm really interested in how Buss locks him in for the rest of his career. 

Riley becoming coach is "The Lakers" for me. 

[buttersister]

Finally. I’m Pistons and Bulls, but been waiting for Riley to arrive. I won’t miss  Westfield and am glad West got what he wanted. 
 

Did the team really instantly switch from a bunch of bitches to coach’s team? And is Honey too good to be true?

[baldryanr]

8 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Nowadays, players have much more control of their own movement, and they should, so back then, this must have been unbelievable. I can get the public blowback. 

Nowadays it has swung too far in the other direction, so you get players like James Harden and Kyrie Irving essentially giving up in the middle of the season and demanding a trade.

6 hours ago, buttersister said:

And is Honey too good to be true?

Honey's not a real life person, so who knows where they'll got with this.  She's likely a merge of two real life people, Karen Demel and someone nicknamed Puppi Buss (and no, I'm not making that up).  Regardless, Jerry's going to share the same aversion to monogamy that Magic has.

[DoctorAtomic]

11 hours ago, buttersister said:

Did the team really instantly switch from a bunch of bitches to coach’s team?

I don't think it was instant. They lost a bunch of games until Riley blew up. That looked like a couple of months to me. Kareem didn't come around at first either, so that was probably dragging the team down. 

I bet irl there had to be an adjustment going back to the Showtime style offense. 

 

[buttersister]

4 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

until Riley blew up.

This was the moment I was referring to. Guess it was possible, considering how not-blow up he was previously. That hand was a medium-sized price to pay. 

But where did the Armani jones come from? I saw his Dad go for dapper, but that’s not exactly the same thing. He wore it well, an it went with the Showtime pizazz, perhaps that’s what he was aiming for all along?

[DoctorAtomic]

There may not have been a huge blow up irl in one big scene, but something had to happen over that period to get the team back on track. It could have been Riley just getting back to his scrappy NBA roots. West made a comment about it. 

The wife said Riley was better than his dad, so maybe the suits stemmed from him accepting that. 

Magic's look when Riley chewed out Kareem was priceless. I think that sold the team in the scene. 

I really hope some of that happened. Could you imagine telling Kareem that he retired two months ago? 

[Night Cheese]

Just popping in to say I'm watching and loving this show. This era is a little before my time, but I'm a lifelong Celtics fan (and lifelong Lakers hater), so I've enjoyed learning more about this bit of Bos/LA rivelry and history that up until now I've only heard about from people who lived through it or the occasional documentary. I knew next to nothing about any Lakers coaches other than Pat Riley (lifelong Pat Riley hater too, fwiw) and I guess Jerry West, but my knowledge was moreso him as a player and the NBA logo, so all the McKinney/Westhead drama has been fascinating. 

I really hope this show lasts long enough to make it to the end of this era and Magic's diagnosis. I'm old enough to remember when that happened and hearing about it on the news, but I was too young to understand the impact it had on his career and the NBA. I'd like the show to reach that point so that I don't have to seek out Magic's biography or anything like that.

[Dminches]

On 8/28/2023 at 4:28 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

Was anyone actually around for the Lakers/Celtics in the 80s? I'm wondering if this is resonating with anyone else like it is for me. 

 

For sure. I have been following the NBA since the late 60s. While most of us weren't privy to what was going on behind the scenes, the players and personalities depicted in the show seem pretty true to form. I am even impressed with how the actor playing Bird shoots the ball.  It looks exactly like Bird's motion.

[baldryanr]

On 9/6/2023 at 3:45 PM, Night Cheese said:

I really hope this show lasts long enough to make it to the end of this era and Magic's diagnosis. I'm old enough to remember when that happened and hearing about it on the news, but I was too young to understand the impact it had on his career and the NBA. I'd like the show to reach that point so that I don't have to seek out Magic's biography or anything like that.

The book this is based on literally ends with Magic starting to make his announcement, so the author wasn't concerned with the aftermath.  Magic's legacy as a player was already set at that point and I'm not sure he would have won any more rings since MJ was hitting his peak, James Worthy was about to break down physically, etc.  However, it did deprive him of some stat padding.  That's something a lot of the older players don't have, and a glance it makes them look inferior to their more modern counterparts.

[Night Cheese]

7 hours ago, baldryanr said:

The book this is based on literally ends with Magic starting to make his announcement, so the author wasn't concerned with the aftermath.  Magic's legacy as a player was already set at that point and I'm not sure he would have won any more rings since MJ was hitting his peak, James Worthy was about to break down physically, etc.  However, it did deprive him of some stat padding.  That's something a lot of the older players don't have, and a glance it makes them look inferior to their more modern counterparts.

Thanks, I'll have to check out the book.

[DoctorAtomic]

Check out some of those scores from 1982. 135 and 127 on two of those games. I wish the show didn't skip over it. It's hard to show the difference between 1982 and 1983 without showing 1982. It looked like Norm was just done. That probably meant more doubling on Kareem, and he got beat up more. Taking Worthy out of the lineup right at the playoffs probably knocked them off their rhythm too. I just don't remember any of it irl.

I do think the trading Norm made sense, especially after the bad Finals being slow. He's been pissy for years. I didn't know Scott was a package with the "Swede". I never heard of him. If Magic wasn't hurt, Buss would have pulled the trigger on the Skywalker trade.

I know it's about Magic v Bird, but neither ever did it alone. Bird still needed McHale, Parish, and DJ to bring the ball up. Forwards didn't do that until Pippin. Magic needed Worthy, Scott, and Coop. 

I always remember Pat Riley being so smooth. It's great to see this early version. I like his relationship with his wife. I think Pat is missing that they have been to two straight Finals, so everyone is bringing everything they have at them every night. For Norm, that was one game. For them, it's 82 of them. 

That was really nice moment when everyone came to bring Kareem new records. Great monologue by Hughes. Even I was fired up!

The cuts between Buss and Red were really great too. 

I liked the montage of going back to Magic and Bird during the playoffs. Both of them said irl they used to follow their box scores. I liked that touch. 

Is Jay Mohr playing Kareem's agent? Great casting. 

I had a conversation this weekend about being able to hang the phone up on people. 

Why is next week the finale? Who makes a 7 episode season?

Edited September 11, 2023 by DoctorAtomic

[Mr. R0b0t]

The show is a delight!  They need more eyeballs on it so I'm doing my part and campaigning for it as much as I can.  

[UrbanShocker]

Last year all the talk was about how the show was not perfect with the representations of some of the characters, especially Jerry West and Kareem.  I haven't heard any of that this season, mostly because it's been much more factual (I would say this season is 95% fact while last season was closer to 80%).  They really haven't had to embellish some of the stuff which was IRL crazy.  But I think season 2 felt a bit too long at the beginning and way too quick at the end (2 years of NBA history in 45 minutes in the last episode).  They should have had at least a 10-episode season to not fast forward through everything.  At least next week they get to the '84 finals which are legendary (I'm a bit too young to remember it myself, but I remember the '86 Celtics and the '87 Finals with the Magic hook shot).

Yes, that was Jay Mohr as Kareem's agent - and in real life he's Jeanie Buss' fiance.  Also, the radio announcer doing a play-by-play late in the episode was NFL network host Rich Eisen, who I don't usually associate with basketball.  But he's had a bunch of actors from the show (and the book's author Jeff Pearlman) on his daily radio show, so it made some sense.

I really hope this series is picked up through four seasons, which I think was the original plan.  There is some doubt it will be picked up but it's been a fun series and I would hate for it to end in the middle of the story.  

[DoctorAtomic]

6 minutes ago, UrbanShocker said:

But I think season 2 felt a bit too long at the beginning and way too quick at the end (2 years of NBA history in 45 minutes in the last episode). 

Really. I don't know why they didn't spend at least one episode each on 82 and 83. It would have built up to a better pay off with Norm leaving (from a dramatic tv pov), as well as bringing in Worthy to show how essential he became and why they lost in 83. I think you could have done all of that in 8 or 9 episodes versus 7. 

That's really the only criticism I have. The main players, West, Magic, Buss, Kareen, Bird, Red, and Riley are just fantastic. I can totally buy the respective speeches at the end. 

I guess they wanted to rush to 84 because after that you have the Lakers in the Finals 5 out of 7 years with Magic's last one in 1991. That's a lot of ground to cover. 

I really hope they end the series on the Dream Team. I want to see Magic and Bird playing together. They've been playing up the personal rivalry, so it would seem to be a natural ending. 

[Popples]

Watching DeVaughn Nixon grind on someone who looks exactly like his stepmother was weird.

18 hours ago, UrbanShocker said:

Yes, that was Jay Mohr as Kareem's agent

This drove me crazy because he looked familiar, but I couldn't figure out why.

18 hours ago, UrbanShocker said:

Also, the radio announcer doing a play-by-play late in the episode was NFL network host Rich Eisen

No way! I have to re-watch it because I didn't recognize him 

I want this show to return for a third season; unfortunately, the actors not being able to do press for it hurt the ability to help build a following.

[DoctorAtomic]

I think being on HBO is good though because ratings essentially don't matter for another season. It would be great if they could pick up and award or two to help.

I'd love it if Clarke picked up a supporting actor award somewhere. He was on Farscape! 

 

[baldryanr]

How they portray the 84 Finals is going to be incredible.  The ludicrously physical play (imagine if McHale's clothesline takedown happened today).  The 90+ degree games in Boston.  Magic whiffing in games 2 and 4.  Worthy making multiple big mistakes.

[DoctorAtomic]

What a great opener with Musburger. I barely, barely remember 1984. I didn't know Magic choked it in Game 2. I do remember the 21 assists. I can't imagine being in the Garden for a game 7.

No offense, Red, but there really wasn't another Bird. 

Great discussion with West and Magic about making the other players better. That goes a long way even outside of sports. Again, don't know if it was real life, but I could see Magic being about beating Bird than LA versus Boston. Not showing game 7 and only West was brilliant. 

I'm not buying the Buss and Honey plot. I don't get all the hostility. I get why she's mad, but I'm not seeing the years of abuse she's intimated. The fact that he just forgot about filing the papers doesn't seem overly egregious for Buss. 

On 9/12/2023 at 5:15 PM, baldryanr said:

The ludicrously physical play (imagine if McHale's clothesline takedown happened today).

I liked when Bird just looked at the camera and said "We got him." I don't know if that's how it happened, but totally makes sense. And Bird just drains it over Magic. Wow. I don't recall Magic d'ing up Bird. I doubt irl Riley would put Magic on him. Although on the show here, they may be making a point that Magic isn't playing the team. 

They're scoring tons of points in these games. It's like now, and the rules are way tighter today in terms of pushing people around. They had hannndchecking back then too. And they shoot 3s so much more now. That's a lot of baskets to get in the 130s with not many threes. Now, you're talking 30% of shots are 3s. Also, no way Kareem fouls out today either. 

I had no idea Rambis had groupies. I like how they just show Jack Nicholson whooping it up all the time. He had one line hazing Carr. So great. 

Bird and his mother was a great scene too. You don't want too much of him. That was just enough.

Obviously, this is one of my top shows, so I would have liked 8 or 10 episodes. They glossed over the 76ers series, both of them, and here, we got 2 seconds of Kareem in game 6. I would have liked some more time on that because their backs were against the wall. I know you can't have actors playing too much basketball, but they could have more in-game scenes. Hughes is killing it as Kareem. I cannot believe he decked that guy!

I do think ending on the 1984 Finals makes sense narratively because the Lakers dominate the rest of the decade. Really, they went to the finals 8 times from 1980-89. That's ridiculous. It hasn't happened since. 

This is it for the show? That's criminal. Maybe Starz will take a shot like they did with Minx. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by DoctorAtomic

[DanaK]

Canceled https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/winning-time-canceled-hbo-two-seasons-series-finale-1235592576/

[DoctorAtomic]

I just saw. It's not like HBO is massively ratings driven. I hope they shop it around. I hope they win a few awards to up the show value.

[baldryanr]

8 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I do think ending on the 1984 Finals makes sense narratively because the Lakers dominate the rest of the decade. Really, they went to the finals 8 times from 1980-89. That's ridiculous. It hasn't happened since. 

I love the Lakers, but they definitely benefited from being in the weaker conference.  Boston just wore down having to deal with the Pistons, 76ers, and Bucks.  It's too bad we won't get to see the show's portrayal of the Pistons, especially Laimbeer. 

As for real life, the year the Lakers missed the finals (86) was the year the Celtics were at their absolute peak.

[DoctorAtomic]

The Celtics destroyed the Rockets in 86.

The conferences go back and forth. I'd say Jordan benefitted from a weaker east in the 90s. 

The Celtics just got older. The Pistons couldn't beat them until they did. 

[Carolina Girl]

Can anyone tell me just WHAT the Jack Nicholson character was shouting  during the final game?  Something about a jalopy?  

[DoctorAtomic]

He called Carr an old jalopy because he wasn't getting any minutes. 

[DoctorAtomic]

From what I read, it sounds like it was going to be the last season because they filmed the additional '5 days later' afterwards. I don't know why they did just argue for an extra episode to wrap up or just extend this final episode to 90 minutes or so, if only to squeeze in 1985. 

[DanaK]

Hopefully Max won’t drop the series anytime soon

[Carolina Girl]

8 minutes ago, DanaK said:

Hopefully Max won’t drop the series anytime soon

It did.  Yesterday was the series finale.  

[DoctorAtomic]

No, I think they meant that the show is still on Max to watch and not Max removing the show entirely from the site. 

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

No, I think they meant that the show is still on Max to watch and not Max removing the show entirely from the site. 

Yes, the former is what I meant. I didn’t watch the show but I’m considering it in the future

[TV Diva Queen]

I'm so disappointed that this is cancelled and we didn't get into the true dynasty of the Lakers. My family truly enjoyed this show.  Our kids are early 20's and it gave them a glimpse of the fabulous basketball me and the DH grew up with.  We live in chicago and was really looking forward to the Jordan years.  

[Dminches]

Clearly the producers knew that they were only getting 2 seasons given the ending and how it brought the storyline to the present.

It was a fun 2 seasons and brought back many memories from that era of the NBA.

 

[edhopper]

Max's motto, You love it, we cancel it.

[DSpree]

To be called “Winning Time Rise of the Lakers etc”…and to cancel the show before the Lakers can finally beat Boston in ‘85 is just wrong headed plain ole mean. I assume Zaslav is a Celtics fan? ( Rhetorical) SMH

[Halting Hex]

"Holy shit!"

"Holy shit!"

"Holy shit!"

"Holy shit!"

"Holy shit!", "Holy shit!", "Holy shit!"

That was me watching episode 1x06 (I don't have HBO and am only now catching up on downloading) when "Prove Your Love" came on during the scene where Westhead is sitting with the comatose McKinney in the hospital, right before Westhead's first game as interim coach.

I mean, nobody knows  "Prove Your Love".  You don't even know it's a Fleetwood Mac song. It wasn't a single, and FM have literally never played it live.  I only discovered it this year.

(Nowadays I'm so annoyed by how Mick Fleetwood has tried to bury the Bob Welch-era Mac records, that I'm starting to hate on Stevie Nicks just for revenge.  And I know that Stevie and Lindsay Buckingham made some excellent records for the group, leading to riches and glory.  But my love of the underdog gets my back up about how Mick just wants to delete the struggles between the early Peter Green-era hits [in 1969, Fleetwood Mac sold more records in the UK than anyone else…Beatles Stones, Who, Led Zeppelin, the Mac beat them all] and the Rumours mega-success.  While I think that Christine McVie and Welch [and others] made the best music in the catalogue.)

Since then, I've been trying to get music reactors to listen to the song, give it the audience it deserves. (Ken Barnes of Rolling Stone did call it "exquisitely pretty", after all.)  No luck at all. 

(I did get somebody to listen to the tune that precedes it in the episode, "Dear Mr. Fantasy" by Traffic…but that's a very different matter, as the millions who saw Avengers: Endgame could tell you.)

And yet, here is "Prove Your Love" coming right out of nowhere.  Wow.  Big ups to the music department. (There must be a Christine Perfect McVie fan on the staff; "I'd Rather Go Blind" [the Etta James classic that plays as Magic strays with Cindy Day] was a staple of Christine's act, going back to her days in Chicken Shack.)

Sorry to see the series go.  I was looking forward to seeing Westhead at Loyola-Marymount, naturally.  (Remember, it was Tarkanian and UNLV who ended that Cinderella story.)

Ah, well.  Maybe Showtime will pick it up?  For obvious branding reasons, if nothing else.

(No idea if the series will get into the Magic/Isiah rumors.  But if they do, I hope somebody asks Stormin' Norman about the tales of his wife Debbie Allen, er, "mentoring"  a whole bunch of young actresses in the cast of "A Different World".  Fair's fair, right?)

Edited September 26, 2023 by Halting Hex

[DoctorAtomic]

UNLV ended it, but they also lost to North Carolina by a lot the year before iirc. UNLV was almost a pro team, but North Carolina was a traditional program back then with a conventional offense. That's why I question whether the 'system' was ever successful. It's not like he was ripping through a power conference. No Final Fours either. 

[Night Cheese]

On 9/26/2023 at 5:02 AM, Halting Hex said:

(No idea if the series will get into the Magic/Isiah rumors.  But if they do, I hope somebody asks Stormin' Norman about the tales of his wife Debbie Allen, er, "mentoring"  a whole bunch of young actresses in the cast of "A Different World".  Fair's fair, right?)

Can you elaborate on this? Genuinely curious because I remember the show well from my childhood but was too young to know any behind the scenes stuff. And Google was a dead end.

[DoctorAtomic]

Isiah kissed Magic on the cheek before tip off of the Finals, and everyone went bonkers because it was the 80s. Youtube has to have it. 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by DoctorAtomic

[Halting Hex]

Obvious error in 1.08.  Grandma doesn't want to watch the NBA All-Star Game and suggests watching Dynasty instead.

1)  It's the afternoon in Los Angeles (Pacific Time).  Notice all the sunshine coming through the window.  There's no prime-time programs on other networks for hours and hours.

2)  This is 1980.  Dynasty doesn't premiere until 1981.

Gammy might be following the exciting 3rd season of Dallas, culminating in the famous cliff-hanger.  But as both Dallas and the NBA were on CBS, switching channels isn't really an option.

She's probably just hallucinating, but still.

(The obvious error in 1.07 was that "Johnny Most" was nowhere near drunk enough.)

Salacious side-bar under the spoiler

Spoiler

7 hours ago, Night Cheese said:

Can you elaborate on this? Genuinely curious because I remember the show well from my childhood but was too young to know any behind the scenes stuff. And Google was a dead end.

Tales of Debbie Allen providing the sort of same-sex "mentoring" that Usher gave to Justin Bieber have been around for a while.   Here's an African-American-themed gossip site discussing it in 2017, but the thread notes that they've been discussing it since at least 2010, and on the second page there's a link to a list of gossip originally posted by radio host (now talk show host) Wendy Williams.  This NBA discussion board posted it in 2007, but notes that it might be from earlier, as Cuttino Mobley is referenced as being from Houston, whereas "Cat" had moved to Sacramento and then the Clippers by '07.

But yeah, always a lot of gossip about everything.  Since the profit model is based on appealing to as many people as possible, many people in the arts go to great lengths to conceal same-sex inclinations.  I mean some people still think Taylor Swift likes men, ffs.

 

[yanksno1]

Was the last ep the series finale? They def played it out like it could be. I thought Season 2 was really strong, and they could easily keep going. Really liked all the actors they brought in to play their roles, thought they did a great job. There's so much story they could tell with the Lakers as a base. I'll def be bummed if that's the last we see of this show.

[DoctorAtomic]

HBO canned it. So we'll have to hope it gets picked up somewhere else.