Winning Time: The Rise Of The Lakers Dynasty - General Discussion

[cambridgeguy]

Looks like Jerry West REALLY doesn't like his portrayal on the show

I don't know enough about the law to know whether or not this has any legs.

[Lady Whistleup]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Looks like Jerry West REALLY doesn't like his portrayal on the show

I don't know enough about the law to know whether or not this has any legs.

Idk what he's so upset about. Everyone I talk to says Jerry West is by far their favorite character in the series.

[DoctorAtomic]

I probably wouldn't want to be portrayed as yelling *all* the time either, but I do speak loudly a lot. I'd be curious as to why the showrunners went in the direction of portraying West that way if there wasn't some truth there. 

I mean, Magic likely wasn't talking to Cookie when there was another woman cleaning up in the bathroom, but we know he was quite the philanderer so you're going to up that on a tv show for drama.

West never yelled at all? Ever? That's hard to believe. The show could also be setting him up as angry now, so when he transforms into the GM that everyone knows, it's more earned and dramatic. That's how tv shows work. Sure, you have 100% right to correct the record as you think you should, but you could also have some fun with it. No one is doubting West was strongly involved in building this dynasty.

I'm sorry to all these people, but the show is excellent across the board. Looking back at the extent of my posts, and seeking out other media sources to learn about the history of time, this show is far exceeding my expectations and is easily in the top spot of my viewing rotation. 

I especially like that it's once per week so we have a lot of time to go over what actually happened and how they did it on the show. 

[Lady Whistleup]

I don't think their portrayal of West is even bad. I think the way the show portrays West, every organization needs someone like him -- passionate, knowledgeable, and devoted.

[Marley]

Did Kareem only watch episode 1-2? Because I agree the show was one note then but I think it’s getting better. I do think it could be better tho but it’s not horrible. I mean he lived it tho so I guess I shouldn’t judge lol.

[DoctorAtomic]

Maybe Kareem didn't like the orange juice bit. 

Chick seems way way worse than West by far. West may be yelling all the time, but he was clearly the impetus in getting McKinney hired (on the show; idk irl). He's trying to replace Westhead, but the team clearly didn't have confidence in him. 

Chick is just full of himself and treated Riley like garbage. 

[cambridgeguy]

According to the show West was also the guy who didn't want to draft Magic in addition to being a raging maniac who regularly trashed his golf clubs, office, etc. when he wasn't moping in a dark room. 

[TV Diva Queen]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:30 AM, cambridgeguy said:

Looks like Jerry West REALLY doesn't like his portrayal on the show

I don't know enough about the law to know whether or not this has any legs.

This is exactly what I see the HBO depicted Jerry West doing......LOL

[Unclejosh]

It is pretty funny how all the real life people involved who have had negative things to say about the show are kinda acting exactly how their characters as portrayed in the show would act.

Art imitating life or vice versa?

 

[DoctorAtomic]

Has Magic said anything? 

I don't know if it's generational, but I'm surprised they're not jumping in on it. 

Maybe Kareem wasn't that broody, for example, and he's certainly free to express his pov on those times, but it's a fact he was kind of a (justifiably) surly guy. I'd certainly like to hear from him on what he thought about McKinney's hire compared to West and how he transitioned to the Showtime offense. 

Or that West really didn't have a front office position at this point in the show. He's kind of just there. How did that happen?

I mean, it's an indelible period in NBA history, and there's no question the product today is directly derived from these individuals. Bird too. If the Celtics didn't acquire McHale and Parish, they're probably wouldn't have been the rivalry. It's not like ML Carr was going to keep up with Kareem. 

I'd be putting out my own podcast talking about the show. 

[Lady Whistleup]

41 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Has Magic said anything? 

I don't know if it's generational, but I'm surprised they're not jumping in on it. 

Maybe Kareem wasn't that broody, for example, and he's certainly free to express his pov on those times, but it's a fact he was kind of a (justifiably) surly guy. I'd certainly like to hear from him on what he thought about McKinney's hire compared to West and how he transitioned to the Showtime offense. 

Or that West really didn't have a front office position at this point in the show. He's kind of just there. How did that happen?

I mean, it's an indelible period in NBA history, and there's no question the product today is directly derived from these individuals. Bird too. If the Celtics didn't acquire McHale and Parish, they're probably wouldn't have been the rivalry. It's not like ML Carr was going to keep up with Kareem. 

I'd be putting out my own podcast talking about the show. 

Magic doesn't like it either. He says he hasn't watched though.

I think at this point Jerry West is just making it worse for himself. People that watch Winning Time tell me they LOVE Jerry West's character. I do too. He comes across on the show as someone passionate about the game and about the Lakers. 

[DoctorAtomic]

The actor playing West has a ridiculous acting pedigree (he was on Farscape?!). I'd be thrilled if someone at that level was playing me. Also he's really one of the only actors I've seen to actually be able to do a Rhode Island accent. 

No offense to Magic, you don't have to watch the show for sure, but I'm not clear on how or what you can claim is inaccurate. Kareem did watch it and offered his opinion. 

I've certainly pointed out where I think they might have taken some dramatic license, but, you know what you did and what happened. Even Arsenio was plain about Magic's proclivities in the Magic-Bird documentary. And they're best friends. 

I'd be interested in Magic's documentary, but if he's producing it, I mean, is that 'factual' too? 

16 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I think at this point Jerry West is just making it worse for himself.

What they're all doing is giving the show massive free press. 

[DoctorAtomic]

And like the article said, the Lakers had 30 years.

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I've certainly pointed out where I think they might have taken some dramatic license, but, you know what you did and what happened. Even Arsenio was plain about Magic's proclivities in the Magic-Bird documentary. And they're best friends. 

Forget Arsenio, Magic himself has gone into pretty explicit detail about what went on.  Unfortunately some of that was because he seemed really anxious to dispel rumors he was gay.

[ninjago]

On 4/19/2022 at 9:40 AM, Lady Whistleup said:

Jerry West is Crazed Coach

I like Kareem's writing as well, but I disagree strongly with this.  The Jerry West character on the show is fantastic, and I think very well drawn and interesting.  I know Jerry West does not like the portrayal and I'm sorry for that.

[Lady Whistleup]

37 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Forget Arsenio, Magic himself has gone into pretty explicit detail about what went on.  Unfortunately some of that was because he seemed really anxious to dispel rumors he was gay.

An interesting post-script: Magic and Isiah reconciled and TO ME both of them seemed to tacitly acknowledge that their relationship might have been, uh, more than friends. Here's the video. Would two straight guys really say stuff like "I apologize that we haven't been together"?

 

[Emmybean]

On 4/20/2022 at 11:46 AM, Lady Whistleup said:

I don't think their portrayal of West is even bad. I think the way the show portrays West, every organization needs someone like him -- passionate, knowledgeable, and devoted.

His 180 on McKinney, recognizing his talent after studying the films, showed the extent to which he could get out of his own head when he saw what the team needed. A

 

[nichelle]

On 4/21/2022 at 9:05 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

An interesting post-script: Magic and Isiah reconciled and TO ME both of them seemed to tacitly acknowledge that their relationship might have been, uh, more than friends. Here's the video. Would two straight guys really say stuff like "I apologize that we haven't been together"?

 

Yes, they would.

[Lady Whistleup]

Great episode tonight. Really loved the jockeying for power between Jack, Paul, and Pat. I have no idea if Pat Riley was conniving behind the scenes in those years, but tonight for the first time the Pat Riley character worked for me. 

The stuff between Magic and Cookie was great. In real life, Magic did father a son with another woman named Melissa Mitchell, and the son's name is Andre. Judging from IG he's pretty close with Magic.

Also loved the scene between Jerry West and Magic. Again, Jerry West is my favorite character. Teams need a Jerry West.

The Spencer Haywood drama was apparently very real. He did suffer from a cocaine addiction.

Things that did NOT work for me:

- The Buss family drama. I just don't really care.

- The Doctor J actor did not work at all. Dr. J was handsome and cool. This actor seemed sort of a ... chump. 

 

[Popples]

44 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

- The Doctor J actor did not work at all. Dr. J was handsome and cool. This actor seemed sort of a ... chump. 

He looked way too old. Dr. J at this time was 30 and the actor looks well into his 50s.

[Lady Whistleup]

This is what Dr. J looked like around the time Magic came into the league:

ETA: fact checking Episode 8:

https://screenrant.com/winning-time-episode-8-true-story-fact-change/

https://www.whattowatch.com/features/fact-vs-fiction-winning-time-season-1-episode-8-did-spencer-haywood-have-a-drug-problem

Edited April 25, 2022 by Lady Whistleup

[edhopper]

I'll give the casting agents a break. They need to find a lot of 6'6" actors. The guy who played Dr. Jay was a little old, but he did it well. 

I know a lot of this is not strictly true, but boy it's fun.

[ninjago]

I love the fun stuff, like Buss being sleazy or bantering with his mom.  Don’t want to see him crying and manipulating the nurse.

I find Jerry West hot as hell in this for some reason.  Sorry Jerry.

Edited April 25, 2022 by ninjago

[Marley]

I thought this was one of the better episodes. Not really interested in Jerry Buss and that nurse tho that was disturbing to watch.

Not sure why Cookie is surprised every time Magic fucks around. Seems like she’s been shown who he is. I mean again she does marry him.

If this is how Larry Bird really is it makes me dislike him. Such an asshole.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Marley

[nichelle]

In the 4-part Apple+ series, "They Call Me Magic", he explains how he revealed his son to Cookie. Right after they reunited in their off and on and off and on relationship, they were at his parents' house. He left the house and came back with a young boy. Cookie says that 'they all said, this is Andre`' That's when Magic told her that he had a son. He explained that it was one night. And he says that revealing it was "awkward and tough" but he wanted her to know that he is his son and would always be in his life.

During that same trip home to Michigan, he later proposed.

I enjoyed watching the Apple series and hearing the perspective of events from Magic, his parents, his brothers and sisters,  Cookie, her college friends, Isiah, Kareem, business partners, friends such as Arsenio, Pat Riley, etc.

Note - I was born and raised in Michigan and was there through early adulthood. So, I had a lot of exposure to Magic in college and then Isiah leading the Detroit Pistons. I was a Bad Boys fan. So, it's been fun watching "Winning Time" though they have certainly taken some liberties. 

 

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, Marley said:

If this is how Larry Bird really is it makes me dislike him. Such an asshole.

They turned him into a cartoon character based on the Hick from French Lick nickname.  If you're going to dislike the guy then the way he treated his daughter is a better reason.  Say what you will about Magic but he was willing to be a part of his son's life.

[Lady Whistleup]

I don't have Apple +. Is the Magic series worth watching? Is it like The Last Dance except about Magic?

As for Larry Bird, think he came from a different era of the NBA. He believed in playing a rough physical game and he believed in trash talking. Nowadays, NBA stars are careful to grant Make-a-Wishes (even prickly Michael Jordan apparently grants many wishes), take selfies with young AAU prospects, visit hospitals, give out Thanksgiving dinners, etc. Larry just wasn't that type of celebrity.

[Marley]

6 hours ago, nichelle said:

In the 4-part Apple+ series, "They Call Me Magic", he explains how he revealed his son to Cookie. Right after they reunited in their off and on and off and on relationship, they were at his parents' house. He left the house and came back with a young boy. Cookie says that 'they all said, this is Andre`' That's when Magic told her that he had a son. He explained that it was one night. And he says that revealing it was "awkward and tough" but he wanted her to know that he is his son and would always be in his life.

During that same trip home to Michigan, he later proposed.

I enjoyed watching the Apple series and hearing the perspective of events from Magic, his parents, his brothers and sisters,  Cookie, her college friends, Isiah, Kareem, business partners, friends such as Arsenio, Pat Riley, etc.

Note - I was born and raised in Michigan and was there through early adulthood. So, I had a lot of exposure to Magic in college and then Isiah leading the Detroit Pistons. I was a Bad Boys fan. So, it's been fun watching "Winning Time" though they have certainly taken some liberties. 

 

That story makes Magic seem like an even bigger douche. Instead of explaining to her he just brings the kid over. What a fun meeting lol.

[Athena5217]

28 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I don't have Apple +. Is the Magic series worth watching? Is it like The Last Dance except about Magic?

I didn’t really like it. It’s not very balanced. I think it shows Magic in a very favorable way, and ignores some of the less flattering things he’s done. For example, according to Cookie, Magic had a hard time accepting that EJ is gay, but the documentary made it seem like their relationship has always been great. 

Magic has done a lot of wonderful things on the court and off, so I understand showing all those things. However, he isn’t perfect and the documentary either does not mention or glosses over his flaws. 
 

[nichelle]

43 minutes ago, Athena5217 said:

I didn’t really like it. It’s not very balanced. I think it shows Magic in a very favorable way, and ignores some of the less flattering things he’s done. For example, according to Cookie, Magic had a hard time accepting that EJ is gay, but the documentary made it seem like their relationship has always been great. 

Magic has done a lot of wonderful things on the court and off, so I understand showing all those things. However, he isn’t perfect and the documentary either does not mention or glosses over his flaws. 
 

I had a bit of a different impression. In the documentary, EJ, Cookie and Magic each described the interaction when they first discussed EJ. Magic said he is ashamed of it, was unaccepting and said things he regrets (that EJ needed to be macho, etc).  He said he failed him. EJ and Andre described their conversation after and how upset EJ was. They went through a rocky period. 

It was called out in the documentary. Was it likely softer in the documentary when looking back? Yep, I'd guess so. I just remember that they didn't make it seem like it was great at all. 

 

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I don't have Apple +. Is the Magic series worth watching? Is it like The Last Dance except about Magic?

As for Larry Bird, think he came from a different era of the NBA. He believed in playing a rough physical game and he believed in trash talking. Nowadays, NBA stars are careful to grant Make-a-Wishes (even prickly Michael Jordan apparently grants many wishes), take selfies with young AAU prospects, visit hospitals, give out Thanksgiving dinners, etc. Larry just wasn't that type of celebrity.

Opinions will vary. I enjoyed it just to get some more insight into a figure who experienced so much publicly, the good and the bad. It kept my attention and it was interesting to hear him narrate his life.

[HC87]

On 4/24/2022 at 10:44 PM, Popples said:

He looked way too old. Dr. J at this time was 30 and the actor looks well into his 50s.

Yeah, the guy playing Dr J was their first real misstep in casting.

They are also portraying Bird as a Neanderthal....only allowing him to grunt a word or two in any scene he is in.

[TV Diva Queen]

serious question.....I'm watching this with my hubby and he said says that Larry was pretty much a di*ck.  DH is 61 and is a b-ball guy.  I'm 57 and only remember LB commercials or ads, I really never noticed or cared about his on court antics.  How old are all of you saying that they're portraying LB bad?

[DoctorAtomic]

Bird was definitely not interested in 'branding' at all, nor did he bask in any adulation like Magic, and he was a documented trash talker. A real good one. This is really a hyper real drama of the 'underdog' Lakers and big bad Celtics. They're going to up the 'villain' quotient on Bird. irl, there's plenty of video showing him in press conferences, locker room, and he's professional with the media. Even back then the media was playing up a personal rivalry that really wasn't as there as it was made out to be. Bird isn't going to be doing any schmoozing to be sure. I have a hard time thinking Bird would take a dinner with Stern about marketing. 

I really liked the opening monologue with Buss talking about what's impossible. 
Brody also sounded a lot more like Riley here. 

7 hours ago, HC87 said:

Yeah, the guy playing Dr J was their first real misstep in casting.

Milton Berle wasn't so good either. I'd say the physique on the basketball posters and the voice was good, but otherwise, the actor really didn't have much of a resemblance. I liked the actor though and how he was actually one of the first pros to be genuinely warm to Magic and trying to help. 

I can't believe the All Star game was in Landover! I was also surprised that teams didn't have more than one assistant them. I don't know if I found it that believable that McKinney would want to bounce Riley. Sure, maybe to be assistant to the assistant, which Riley wouldn't like either, but they are 40-12. I don't understand where the animosity is coming from (prior to Riley getting out in the media - which was brilliant). Interim Interim Head Coach. Also brilliant. 

I do like Buss' relationship with his mother. They're both doing a great job. Not Buss and the nurse though. Come on. 

I forgot Dawkins was on the Sixers back then too. That guy was something else too. Though I don't think losing at Philadelphia is that big a deal at this point. Sixers were a powerhouse then. Easily the top team. 

So what does West think of this episode? Because show-West and his scene with Magic was probably barely second to Kareem and Earvin Sr for me so far. 

I don't know about the actor playing Cookie saying that Cookie 'really knows' Earvin. Did she though? 

[Popples]

4 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I can't believe the All Star game was in Landover!

That's where the Capital Centre was where the Bullets played. My high school graduation was there and it was demolished later that year. OMG, that was 20 years ago!

[Athena5217]

21 hours ago, nichelle said:

I had a bit of a different impression. In the documentary, EJ, Cookie and Magic each described the interaction when they first discussed EJ. Magic said he is ashamed of it, was unaccepting and said things he regrets (that EJ needed to be macho, etc).  He said he failed him. EJ and Andre described their conversation after and how upset EJ was. They went through a rocky period. 

It was called out in the documentary. Was it likely softer in the documentary when looking back? Yep, I'd guess so. I just remember that they didn't make it seem like it was great at all. 

I wonder if I missed part of episode because I don’t remember everything you are describing. It’s very possible—we had some internet issues during two of the episodes so I restarted and fast forwarded to where I thought it left off.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

On 4/24/2022 at 8:49 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

This is what Dr. J looked like around the time Magic came into the league:

ETA: fact checking Episode 8:

https://screenrant.com/winning-time-episode-8-true-story-fact-change/

https://www.whattowatch.com/features/fact-vs-fiction-winning-time-season-1-episode-8-did-spencer-haywood-have-a-drug-problem

I'm not entirely surprised there was a rift with McKinney and Westhead. The Lakers were legitimately the best team in the west under Westhead since he took over. 

They didn't say that McKinney's memory was fuzzy liked they showed on the show. It's kind of a cop out in a way. I'd rather see Westhead just take the job. 

[Athena5217]

8 minutes ago, Popples said:

That's where the Capital Centre was where the Bullets played. My high school graduation was there and it was demolished later that year. OMG, that was 20 years ago!

And the Capital Center was only about a mile of where the NFL team the Washington Commanders (formerly the Redskins) currently play! DC is a small city area-wise so Landover has served as the location for many Washington sports teams.

I am a little surprised the show didn’t just say the All-Star game was in DC because it is more recognizable for the viewers. It’s funny what  Winning Time is accurate about and what it makes up.

Was Dr. J wearing a deerstalker hat when he met Magic?

[DoctorAtomic]

I always thought the Capital Centre was downtown. I knew RFK stadium was further out. 

[Lady Whistleup]

An interesting sidenote: Jerry Buss's mother passed away in 1977, before the era of Showtime.

[Popples]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I always thought the Capital Centre was downtown. I knew RFK stadium was further out. 

They used to be the Baltimore Bullets, then moved to Landover and went from Capital then Washington Bullets. They moved into DC proper when they changed the name from Bullets to Wizards in the late 90s.

 

[nichelle]

1 hour ago, Athena5217 said:

I wonder if I missed part of episode because I don’t remember everything you are describing. It’s very possible—we had some internet issues during two of the episodes so I restarted and fast forwarded to where I thought it left off.

 

My memory is only so clear because I watched the series just a few days ago. Give me a while and it will eventually become a blur 😝

[Athena5217]

3 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I always thought the Capital Centre was downtown. I knew RFK stadium was further out. 

The Capital One Arena where the Washington Wizards and NHL team Washington Capitals play now is downtown. That was built in the late 1990s and was called the MCI Center (then Verizon Center). Before that, they played in Landover. I remember when the arena opened downtown. It was amazing. Getting to Landover for a game was hell.

[DoctorAtomic]

I can imagine. 

I'm glad they took some liberties with Buss' mother then. They're certainly a highlight. I guess the show needed and outside voice of doubt for Jerry. Even though we get inner monologues from the characters, Jerry is 100 mph Lakers all the time and there's no one to talk more about realities. Claire can to a point, but not like his mother talking to him. 

 

 

[Lady Whistleup]

I loved this episode. Magic kind of took a backseat in this episode and I liked that. He isn't the series' most interesting character.

Jerry Buss's mother's death was very sad, and so was Spencer Haywood's deterioration. I liked Kareem more in this episode as he tries to help Haywood. Wood Harris is doing an amazing job as Haywood.

The ongoing McKinney/Westhead/Riley episode also came to a nice conclusion. Adrian Brody is growing on me as Riley. Still don't think he exudes the kind of cool of Riley, but the portrayal is more organic now.

[Racj82]

Some facts I read up on about the episode.

Spencer made it all the way to game 3 finals. Not before the finals began. The front office told him not Kareem and it was Westheads decision not the teams. 

Spencer did want revenge but it was just for Westhead not the organization. He called in a hitter from Detroit but obviously never went through with the plan.

Kareem didn't invent the skyhook but it was never really branded until Kareem started doing it.

We all know all the Jeanie or Jerry's mom isn't true. But, even when Jeanie did join, Jerry did seem to always be supportive.

This was the first episode where I needed the Buss family drama to go. Especially because it's not really. I could have used more time on the actual playoffs. I'm fine with on the court stuff not taking centerstage but I think the playoffs deserved some more time.

 

[cambridgeguy]

I'm a little surprised they moved up Haywood's getting kicked off the team.  Finals tied 1-1, then he gets booted?  How much more dramatic can you get?

Speaking of the Finals, here's a fun fact - games 3 and 4 were back to back.  That would never, ever happen these days.

[Lady Whistleup]

Here's an article that goes over what actually happened with Haywood:

https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/23047223/winning-time-showtime-lakers-spencer-haywood-cocaine-drug-use-kareem-abdul-jabbar

Apparently, in real life Haywood and Kareem were not friends. 

They appear to be friendly now though. Haywood attended Kareem's 75th birthday party recently:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CcWYMB7P5L4/

He looks really good for his age (73).

[nilyank]

At the end of the day Buss needed to be the one to make the decision about who was going to be the coach but I really wanted to which way West would have gone. I was expecting on his Pro and Cons list for Paul  Westhead, in big gigant letters under Pro, Patrick Riley.

[Lady Whistleup]

3 hours ago, nilyank said:

At the end of the day Buss needed to be the one to make the decision about who was going to be the coach but I really wanted to which way West would have gone. I was expecting on his Pro and Cons list for Paul  Westhead, in big gigant letters under Pro, Patrick Riley.

I loved the fact that Westhead's penchant for Shakespeare was under 'con.' That was actually one of the big points of contention between Magic and Westhead.

[roughing it]

On 5/1/2022 at 8:05 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

Wood Harris is doing an amazing job as Haywood.

Yes, however his real age (53) is too old to be playing a professional basketball player.