The Marvels (2023)

[tv echo]

‘The Marvels’ Star Iman Vellani Talks That Final Scene and ‘Ms. Marvel’ Season 2
BY BRIAN DAVIDS   NOVEMBER 13, 2023
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-features/the-marvels-post-credit-scene-iman-vellani-1235645900/ 

Quote

The dynamic between the three of you is the best part of the movie. Did the real-life dynamic between the three of you mirror what was happening on camera? Did the three of you get closer as they got closer?
Yeah, we had a couple team building exercises. The first week that we got to London, we all got together and watched Black Widow in the theater. So that was my first time meeting Teyonah [Parris], and it was so sweet. Everyone was very protective over me being the youngest, but I also knew way more than them about their own characters. (Laughs.) So the tables turned when they needed help with something. They’d be like, “I don’t understand this scene. What’s the lore behind it? What’s actually going on? Are we punching a moon back into orbit? What?” Each character has such a different idea of what being a hero is like, much like in real life. Teyonah also has a different approach to acting in these superhero films than Brie and I do.

So, for Kamala, it’s this romanticized idea. She sees the Avengers as Earth’s mightiest heroes. She sees Captain Marvel as this cosmic lady fighting battles in space with her cat. It’s so cool. And she listens to Ant-Man’s podcast and reads his book, and then she reads comics and writes her own fanfic. So Kamala went into this teamwork with really high expectations, and it was so much like me. I was like, “We are going to be blood sisters by the end of this. Everyone’s getting a tattoo together.” (Laughs.) It didn’t go that far, but we did get very close. We text all the time.
*  *  *
Well, you had your Nick Fury in Iron Man moment as Kamala Khan recruits Kate Bishop (Hailee Steinfeld) to start assembling the Young Avengers. Cassie Lang (Kathryn Newton) seems to be next on her list as well. When did you first hear about this?
There was a version of this in an old script, but we never shot it. And then there were rumors that we were going to get to it in additional photography, but with a different young Avenger. So I never really got the script until right before additional photography and then I flipped out. I immediately rewatched Iron Man and texted Nia in all caps. I was like, “I cannot believe the honor that I am getting right now. This is crazy!” I did not need to rewatch that entire movie, but it didn’t hurt. So I was giddy the entire time. All of us were freaking out. It was also the last scene we shot for the movie, and it is the last scene of the movie. 

It sounds like you were bursting at the seams. 
Yeah, I couldn’t keep it together. During all of our rehearsals, I was like, “I feel so cool right now in my baseball cap,” and that trench coat was so cool. I then met Hailee for the first time, and it was a dream. Suddenly, it felt like I was a part of something much bigger. 
*  *  *
So the mid-credit scene …
They shot the mid-credit scene during principal [photography]. They shot it earlier, so they knew what they were doing. But I thought it was going to be something else. I did not realize Beast [Kelsey Grammer] was in it. I knew they shot it, but I was expecting to see something else. And lo and behold, they kept the secret even from me. I literally jumped and had a heart attack on my bed when I watched it for the first time. I literally texted every single person we worked with, and I was like, “How could you keep this from me?” But at least I got to experience it as a fan, which was so cool. I’m just so excited to see what they do with that in the future. 

We found out at the end of Ms. Marvel that Kamala has the mutant gene. Was that another late-stage change to her origin, or did they tip you off ahead of time? 
That was sort of a late surprise. We did do that in additional photography, but I think they were just waiting on the go-ahead to be able to film it. Even when we were filming it, we didn’t know if it was going to make the cut at the end of the day. So I was praying. I emailed Kevin and I was like, “This needs to be real,” because what an honor it is to be called the first mutant in the MCU. It’s just so cool. 

But I do wonder if they chose to go with the X-Men-related mid-credit scene in The Marvels because of Kamala’s mutant gene. Maybe there’s a long game being played there.
Yeah, I think they’re connecting a lot of things. They’re sprinkling in the mutants here and there. We saw [Charles Xavier] in Multiverse of Madness. So I honestly am not privy to what they’re doing with the X-Men and how they’re going to incorporate them, but it is extremely cool and a really big flex to have one in our own movie. Well, two, if you count me.

Edited November 14, 2023 by tv echo

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Spider-Man. After the events of No Way Home, I figure he would be a free agent. And if you're going to do Young Avengers/Champions, he would be the biggest name.

If Holland’s Peter comes back, he is still an Avengers level character. I can’t see them wasting any appearances they can get Sony to agree to on the Young Avengers/Champions. 

[Raja]

Elder alert. Like I was confused with the movies Guardians with "Champions" I'm thinking of Hercules,  Angel and Iceman 

[tennisgurl]

Honestly, how can people hate a movie that features cute little alien kitties eating people all over a space station as Memory from Cats plays dramatically in the background? How?!

Seriously though, I really enjoyed this movie and thought that it was a ton of fun. It certainly had some flaws and I think it could have benefitted from a slightly longer running time, but its nowhere near the disaster that a lot of critics and internet types have been going on about. I know that I'm easy to please when it comes to franchises that I have put a lot of time into like the MCU, but I really do think that this is a good movie that was a victim of a lot of outside factors. A lot of people went into this movie with their reviews already written ready to hate it, because its what their section of nerddom always does, because it fits into the narrative that critics are running with about superhero fatigue and Disney's losing streak, or just because you get more clicks with bad reviews, a lot of them really do not seem like good faith reviews. If you don't like a movie that's fine, but have an actual reason.

I had a ton of fun with this and it seemed like everyone in my theater was really into it, lots of laughs, especially the post credits when Kamala showed up to do her Nick Fury impression. This is the best Brie Larson has been as Carol so far, she got to show a lot of personality and she played off Iman Vellan and Teyonah Parris really well, they had a great natural chemistry between them. The whole cast was really good but Iman Vellan stole the show, you can see why the MCU is leaning into her being a major character in the MCU going forward. I already love Kamala and the Khans from Ms. Marvel so I was thrilled to get to see them on the big screen, Iman really is a star, so much that even a lot of the hater videos cant say that much bad about her. I like that, while Kamala is a very fast learner and is great at using her powers, she's just a normal teenager who is very much in over her head and still learning. 

I would have been the first person eaten by a Flerken, I could never resist those little fur balls. Goose continues to be a very good girl, I hope that its a running gag that people keep adopting Flerken kittens and have to Flerken proof their homes or something. 

I love that Carol is now a cannon Disney princess, complete with a song and dance number and a pretty princess dress. 

My biggest complaint about the movie was that I wanted it to be a bit longer and really explore the ideas it had. I am glad that they got into the complicated dynamics between Carol and Monica and how Monica feels abandoned by Carol, but I wanted them to get more into it, it feels like we just scratched the surface between them. Things like the musical planet were a ton of fun (loved how Monica looked like she wanted to dip as fast as possible while kamala was having the time of her life) but I wanted to see more of it, or get to hear more about the Skrull colony. I also like the with great power comes great responsibility theme throughout, Carol dealing with the unintended consequences of her actions and Kamala getting hit with how being a superhero isn't all codenames and punching robots, but its a theme that I wanted to see explore more, especially the fall out from Carol destroying the Supreme Intelligence. 

I really hope that this movie gets some good word of mouth that gets people into the theater, it really deserves a chance. It was nice to see Kate and Pizza Dog, looks like Avengers TNG is coming up! Maybe Goose and Pizza can start the Pet Avengers?

[kittykat]

I know the movie has underperformed but at least the narrative has been MCU Fatigue as opposed to the tired excuse of "Women can't headline action films," no matter how loud the incel crowd crows.  And honestly after Barbie's success those douches don't have a leg to stand on with that excuse.

[aghst]

4 hours ago, kittykat said:

I know the movie has underperformed but at least the narrative has been MCU Fatigue as opposed to the tired excuse of "Women can't headline action films," no matter how loud the incel crowd crows.  And honestly after Barbie's success those douches don't have a leg to stand on with that excuse.

Unfortunately, I think people will try to blame the women characters or actresses in this movie.

Some of the fatigue is, why make movies about relatively minor Marvel characters like Captain Marvel?

Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan were saying on their podcast that the movie may need to hit $700 million in box office receipts to break even.

Brie may have to do some more Nissan commercials for awhile.  Not that she's in danger of ending up in the poor house but maybe those commercials allow her to take on lower-profile projects.

She may have to take supporting roles in a few years, like being the mother of teens or young adults, like one of her early signature roles in United States of Tara.

[Sakura12]

I'm surprised Kamala didn't mention that her great Grandmother was from a different dimension when they were talking about the bangles. 

I don't think Brie is hurting for work, she's got a show on Apple TV. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan were saying on their podcast that the movie may need to hit $700 million in box office receipts to break even.

That’s too high an estimate given it’s budget, ~$550 million is more realistic. I’ve seen some people (with a clear agenda) saying the break even point is as high as $900 million. 

1 hour ago, aghst said:

Brie may have to do some more Nissan commercials for awhile.  Not that she's in danger of ending up in the poor house but maybe those commercials allow her to take on lower-profile projects.

She may have to take supporting roles in a few years, like being the mother of teens or young adults, like one of her early signature roles in United States of Tara.

Why?

[aghst]

She’s getting up there in years.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

4 hours ago, aghst said:

She’s getting up there in years.

Brie Larson is thirty-four years old.

Brie Larson has an Oscar.

Brie Larson is thirty-four years old.

More on the actual movie later, unless we're about to resign her to playing grandmothers.

[shrewd.buddha]

13 hours ago, aghst said:

Some of the fatigue is, why make movies about relatively minor Marvel characters like Captain Marvel?

Ms. Marvel->Carol Danvers->Binary->???->Captain Marvel
Probably only a small number of people know the long and convoluted evolution of this character in Marvel Comics.  The character was reinvented, reimagined and relaunched several times. But who can blame them for wanting to have a flagship character with the name Marvel..?
Marvel Studios pulled a rabbit out the hat with the relatively unknown "Guardians of the Galaxy" - but that had a director who was a super-fan of the material he was given to work with.  Ms. Marvel always seemed like a project that someone else was being assigned to "make happen". 

Regarding 'The Marvels', it seems as if people are equating "hate" with not being excited enough to go to the theater on opening weekend. The covid years resulted in people getting comfortable with waiting for movies to become available on streaming. 
Having two co-stars that only exist on Disney+ may have encouraged people to wait for streaming. 

Nobody seemed to get upset when 'Dial of Destiny', 'Morbius', 'John Carter' or 'Flash' failed to connect with the masses. It was understood that people were just not interested - and could not be swayed by the advertising hype machinery. 
'John Carter' might be a good comparison: not a particularly bad movie, but bizarrely promoted with a confusing title and even more confusing concept. 
I wonder if the people who protectively defend 'The Marvels' can in some way relate to those people who defensively defend their favorite comic hero 'Flash' from its critics and haters. (Somebody somewhere probably has unconditional love for 'Morbius', too.)

Maybe Disney/Marvel deserves to reap what they have sown:
They were not confident enough to stick with 'Captain Marvel 2'. 
They were not confident enough to stick with Brie Larson as the solo star of the movie.
They  didn't trust the director's finished product, chopped it to pieces and hacked the runtime to make it "short and sweet". 
They were too scared to let Carol Danvers have any type of real romantic relationship. No one is satisfied - or fooled - with all the nudge-nudge-wink-wink crap. 

Apologies for the lengthy rant. I think (maybe) that Brie would agree with me when I say that I look forward to putting all this non-movie movie baggage behind me. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

4 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

I wonder if the people who protectively defend 'The Marvels' can in some way relate to those people who defensively defend their favorite comic hero 'Flash' from its critics and haters. (Somebody somewhere probably has unconditional love for 'Morbius', too.)

Perhaps, but there's a piece in there where Ezra Miller's behavior may have had a hand in turning people off, and for more serious reasons than Brie Larson simply speaking her mind around the time Captain Marvel finished filming. Whatever she said or didn't say, she didn't get so far off the reservation that she was breaking into people's houses. Even if Miller is ill, as he later claimed, it goes beyond bad publicity when your lead is running amok. They are not the same.

I would agree that the lack of Carol having an obvious romantic connection could hamper things. She had lovely chemistry with LaShana Lynch, but they killed Maria Rambeau off, and while her interactions with Prince Yan were nice, I don't know enough about him to get invested. Valkyrie? Maybe, because Twitter is talking quite a lot about her showing up to take the Skrulls from the refugee colony to safety. "May our next meeting be joyous." Hmm.

I also think it's important to acknowledge that this is the first post-strike Marvel film. Even if it wasn't flawed, and it is, the main cast couldn't do any press or promotion regarding it, so there wasn't that extra effort to talk it up before it hit theaters. Maybe that matters less in today's online all the time culture, but I don't think it matters that much less. The strike didn't end until just before this was officially released, so there's definitely some bad timing involved.

Finally, there's always the argument that we as a collective are much harsher on the female characters than the male ones, and Carol is right at the head of the pack in that regard. Monica and Kamala kinda-sorta haven't been around long enough to offend anyone, and Kamala might be spared anyway since she's still just a kid and can be expected to be overeager and make dumb mistakes before she matures and grows out of that.

 

Notice how she says "Please?" when she's speaking to Kate Bishop about the new Avengers initiative, even though Kate's older and she's the one doing the beginning of the recruiting.

She hasn't even really outgrown her fangirl phase yet, so she's a work in progress.

I really will talk about the movie next, but yeah, there is a lot of non-movie baggage to unpack here.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Sakura12]

2 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Maybe Disney/Marvel deserves to reap what they have sown:
They were not confident enough to stick with 'Captain Marvel 2'. 
They were not confident enough to stick with Brie Larson as the solo star of the movie.

Captain America didn't get a second solo movie either. He shared his second movie with Black Widow and Bucky. Yet we are going with they didn't trust Brie. They must have really not trusted Chris Evans since his 3rd movie was basically Avengers 2.0.

Everyone is always harder and more critical of actresses over actors. They are allowed to grow old and continue to get younger love interests. But a 34 year old woman is getting up there in years and needs to start playing grandmothers. Eyeroll.

I liked this one more than the first one. I like seeing heroes learning to work together. That's why I like the guardians movies. Whenever we get a solo hero everyone always asks where is this other hero, why aren't they helping. Then we get a team up movie and people are like you don't trust to her to headline her own sequel. It's a never ending battle.

I don't care if people hate this movie just give more reasons then hating it because that's what everyone else is doing. Or wanting to Disney/Marvel to fail. Was this movie the greatest ever? No. Was it enjoyable? Yes. That's all I was looking for. 

I think Brie, Iman and Teyonah did a great job with their characters. My one complaint I wish it was longer so we could see more of them. 

The Singing/dancing planet was great because we got to see a different side of Carol. I loved seeing Monica's reactions to seeing Aunt Carol in a princess dress version of her outfit dancing and singing like she was in a musical. 

 

 

[aghst]

Did I say grandmothers or mothers of teens/young adults?

If you're going to attack my point, at least be accurate.

She would not be the first thirtysomething actress to play a mother of a high school or older kid.

I'm not supporting these casting practices, just pointing out that it happens if a lead actress struggles to continue getting lead roles.

She'll continue to play this character for a few more years as supporting character but unless the box office or other revenue sources turn around for this movie, there may not be a sequel with Captain Marvel as the lead.

Again, I'm not saying she deserves that fate, if that is what happens.  It's just a tough business.

 

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Regarding 'The Marvels', it seems as if people are equating "hate" with not being excited enough to go to the theater on opening weekend.

I think the reason the box office is low is people not caring enough to see it in the theaters. Which is becoming more and more normal now that the window before streaming debut are shortening. But there are a lot of people who genuinely hate the movie and characters who want to give the box office a larger meaning. 

 

7 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

They were not confident enough to stick with 'Captain Marvel 2'. 
They were not confident enough to stick with Brie Larson as the solo star of the movie.

I don’t think it’s a lack of confidence in the character of the actress but their need to push every character into the intertwined world of the MCU. 

 

5 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Perhaps, but there's a piece in there where Ezra Miller's behavior may have had a hand in turning people off, and for more serious reasons than Brie Larson simply speaking her mind around the time Captain Marvel finished filming. Whatever she said or didn't say, she didn't get so far off the reservation that she was breaking into people's houses. Even if Miller is ill, as he later claimed, it goes beyond bad publicity when your lead is running amok. They are not the same.

Exactly this. 

[Raja]

2 minutes ago, Dani said:

I think the reason the box office is low is people not caring enough to see it in the theaters. Which is becoming more and more normal now that the window before streaming debut are shortening. But there are a lot of people who genuinely hate the movie and characters who want to give the box office a larger meaning.

I think its is more the social and political wars going on with the parent Disney. The box office collapse is the proof that they have been waiting for. Even if they would agree with me that The Marvels is better than the lastest, Thor Love and Thunder  and Ant-Man movies and not trying to make a worst movie of all time argument are making a general franchise direction that finally caught up with the MCU case 

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, Raja said:

I think its is more the social and political wars going on with the parent Disney. The box office collapse is the proof that they have been waiting for.

I think it’s both. The perception in certain sections of “woke Disney” and the “M She U” definitely plays a role but a lot of those people are absolutely rabid in their hate for Brie specifically. And it goes well beyond just Disney. Every major fan base is being it with the same crap.

I am dreading they how toxic it is going to be alone when the Percy Jackson series is released next month. 

[tv echo]

The Marvels | An Epic Score | Now Playing In Theaters
Marvel Entertainment    Nov 15, 2023

[baldryanr]

 

[Linderhill]

On 11/15/2023 at 1:38 PM, shrewd.buddha said:

Ms. Marvel->Carol Danvers->Binary->???->Captain Marvel
Probably only a small number of people know the long and convoluted evolution of this character in Marvel Comics.  The character was reinvented, reimagined and relaunched several times. But who can blame them for wanting to have a flagship character with the name Marvel..?

count me in as one of those that knows that long complicated evolution of the character in Marvel comics.  I always loved her when she was in the X-Men and had a very hard time forgiving Rogue for her part in the whole story.  I remember buying the "new Captain Marvel" book with Monica on the cover and wondering how that was all going to work out since I knew that Carol would be back somehow as Captain.

[baldryanr]

Well, that could have gone better

It'll be a minor miracle if the movie cracks the $100 million mark domestically, so I hope it gets more of a surge whenever it debuts on Disney+.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

From the article:

Stars Brie Larson and Iman Vellani began promoting the superhero sequel a couple of days prior to its debut, once a tentative agreement was reached in the SAG-AFTRA strike.

Never forget that this has to be at least partly because the studios had been refusing to pay their actors and writers fairly. If their greed hadn't been such a roadblock, the main cast could have been doing the usual promoting on the talk show circuit and wherever else.

On a lighter note, Iman Vellani is a treasure and must be protected:

[tv echo]

Billie Eilish’s ‘Barbie’ Song, Robbie Robertson’s Scorsese Score Honored at 2023 Hollywood Music in Media Awards
By Paul Grein     November 16, 2023
https://www.billboard.com/music/awards/2023-hollywood-music-in-media-awards-billie-eilish-robbie-robertson-win-1235473365/ 

Quote

Women co-wrote five of the six songs that won in various film categories. And women composers took two of the seven film score awards. Laura Karpman won score – sci-fi / fantasy film for The Marvels; Hildur Gudnadóttir won score – horror/thriller film for A Haunting in Venice. In addition, Mica Levi, who identifies as non-binary, won score – independent film for The Zone of Interest.

Edited November 20, 2023 by tv echo

[baldryanr]

12 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Never forget that this has to be at least partly because the studios had been refusing to pay their actors and writers fairly. If their greed hadn't been such a roadblock, the main cast could have been doing the usual promoting on the talk show circuit and wherever else.

I've always wondered how much of a difference this makes considering we're talking about an MCU movie and a sequel to a blockbuster that pulled in over a billion dollars.  Does watching the actors yuck it up with Colbert, Fallon, etc., eating hot wings, doing the Wired autocomplete interview, talking about how super duper awesome everything was, and so forth really make people more willing to go watch?  I'm sure it had some impacy, but if (and this is a big if) the marketing department has done its job then the trailers should be enough to let most people know when the movie is coming.

[tv echo]

The Marvels Hasn't Killed the MCU, It Proves the Actors' Worth
Some claim The Marvels' opening weekend box office performance killed the MCU, but what it actually proves is SAG-AFTRA's point about actors' worth.
BY JOSHUA M. PATTON    PUBLISHED 13 HOURS AGO
https://www.cbr.com/the-marvels-didnt-kill-mcu/ 

[Raja]

1 hour ago, baldryanr said:

I've always wondered how much of a difference this makes considering we're talking about an MCU movie and a sequel to a blockbuster that pulled in over a billion dollars.  Does watching the actors yuck it up with Colbert, Fallon, etc., eating hot wings, doing the Wired autocomplete interview, talking about how super duper awesome everything was, and so forth really make people more willing to go watch?  I'm sure it had some impacy, but if (and this is a big if) the marketing department has done its job then the trailers should be enough to let most people know when the movie is coming.

While I saw the Disney+ series I think the movie worked fine without the two Disney+ origin stories the promotion tours might have gotten folks out to see the other Marvels. But then it seems that throwing Ms. Marvel on an ABC Saturday death time slot binge didn't work.

The K-Pop star I think was also supposed to bring in ticket buyers but beyond those watching shot by shot trailer reviews, which wasn't his fan base it might have shown up as a secret cameo like Valkyrie for the Marvel zombie's, a surprise once you were in instead of a selling point to get you in.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, baldryanr said:

I've always wondered how much of a difference this makes considering we're talking about an MCU movie and a sequel to a blockbuster that pulled in over a billion dollars

Two or three years ago it probably wouldn’t have mattered but today the Marvel name worked against this movie. The general perception now is against Marvel movies. In my personal circle Multiverse of Madness and Love and Thunder really damaged the brand. 

3 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Does watching the actors yuck it up with Colbert, Fallon, etc., eating hot wings, doing the Wired autocomplete interview, talking about how super duper awesome everything was, and so forth really make people more willing to go watch?

I think the bigger impact than the actors not promoting was how many entertainment content creators weren’t promoting struck work in solidarity with the actors.

Those I follow on social media are usually the ones who would be very excited about this type of movie and no one was talking about the Marvels. I would occasionally see official Marvel promotion but the comments were filled with people saying it was the worst Marvel movie ever. I was starting to wonder if I was the only one excited about the movie. 

Then the strike ended and it was like flipping a light switch. Suddenly my feed was filled with people talking positively about the movie, calling out the toxicity in the fan base and edits from the movie. But by then it was too late. 

[Raja]

In my case the YouTube algorithm feeds me a constant stream worse movie ever. It killed woke MCU/Disney.  However the movie review podcast I listen to generally fall into the 62% Fresh go see The Marvel's it's fun, especially Ms. Marvel category 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

8 hours ago, baldryanr said:

I've always wondered how much of a difference this makes considering we're talking about an MCU movie and a sequel to a blockbuster that pulled in over a billion dollars.  Does watching the actors yuck it up with Colbert, Fallon, etc., eating hot wings, doing the Wired autocomplete interview, talking about how super duper awesome everything was, and so forth really make people more willing to go watch?  I'm sure it had some impacy, but if (and this is a big if) the marketing department has done its job then the trailers should be enough to let most people know when the movie is coming.

I don't have any precise figures either way, but as @Dani says it's been a wasteland as far as the usual talk show stuff, and even the youtubers seem to have backed off from doing their own work to be supportive of the strikers. Regardless, the strike could have been ended way before the 148 days that it lasted if the studios had been giving more generous offers. Given how genuinely happy Iman seems about being involved with the franchise, her enthusiasm for this project could have been contagious, but she literally wasn't to speak on this movie because it was against the rules.

Of course, there's always the crowd who were determined to wipe their ass with this film no matter what, and yes, any amount of promotional work wouldn't have changed their mind about it, so in that sense you're right. But that's a larger conversation and I'm talking about reasonable people anyway, not someone who hates the movie even when they haven't seen it. As I said in the main MCU thread, the Star Wars toxicity started to leak over into this fandom at some point, and its infecting everything even if the franchise hasn't always made particularly good decisions about how to proceed.

[shrewd.buddha]

3 hours ago, Dani said:

The general perception now is against Marvel movies. In my personal circle Multiverse of Madness and Love and Thunder really damaged the brand.

Theory #1: Marvel shouldn't hand out movie projects like 'prizes' to directors and writers who don't understand or care about the source material.
 Taika Waititi (Love & Thunder) and Patty Jenkins (Wonder Woman 1984) gave their iconic comic characters a type of cartoon character treatment.
Long-time comics fans were not pleased. 
Joel Schumacher's "Batman Forever" effectively killed Batman for several years.
(correction: Schumacher's "Batman and Robin" )

Theory #2:  Warner Brothers' promotion for The Flash damaged all future movie promotion. 
Steven King said he liked The Flash.  Director James Gunn had some quote about The Flash being the best superhero movie he had ever seen. (!?!) Warner Bros. even got Tom Cruise to say something positive. (!)
The general public did not believe the hype.
Maybe people did not trust the vague, non-specific praise The Marvels received: "it's fun",  "lots of wacky shenanigans", "the actors seemed to be having a blast". 

These are actual quotes from the positive reviews on RottenTomatoes:
"The trend toward general wackiness continues with The Marvels."
"It’s silly and makes little sense, but it’s such a fun time at the movies. "
"But anyone will enjoy the nutty vibe that drives the chaotic plot, which is so formulaic that it requires no thought at all."
With such faint praise, is it any wonder that the average movie goer was not running to the theater on opening weekend? 

Theory #3: Comicbook characters with no 'classic' storylines, well-known support characters and well-known arch enemies are a tough sell: 
People know Aunt May, Lois Lane, Mary-Jane Watson, Alfred, Commissioner Gordon, Bucky Barnes, Lex Luthor, Red Skull, Green Goblin, etc. -- and they want to see them brought to life, too. 
Not a lot of people know very much about the character Blue Beetle, ergo not a lot people show up to see the Blue Beetle movie. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by shrewd.buddha

[baldryanr]

3 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Theory #1: Marvel shouldn't hand out movie projects like 'prizes' to directors and writers who don't understand or care about the source material.
 Taika Waititi (Love & Thunder) and Patty Jenkins (Wonder Woman 1984) gave their iconic comic characters a type of cartoon character treatment.
Long-time comics fans were not pleased. 
Joel Schumacher's "Batman Forever" effectively killed Batman for several years.

Isn't the lesson to hire those folks but not give them free reign.  They (and Tim Burton) only had the chance to come up with a crappy sequel because their first try was so successful.  Say what you will about Batman Forever, but it was financially successful.  Batman and Robin is what murdered the franchise.

[shrewd.buddha]

3 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

Say what you will about Batman Forever, but it was financially successful.  Batman and Robin is what murdered the franchise.

I may have gotten my Batman movies mixed up. Which was the one with Bat nipples on the uniform?  I think it also had Arnold Schwarzenegger and a Bat credit card.  
.. you can't erase those things from memory, no matter how hard you try ..

[shrewd.buddha]

18 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

Isn't the lesson to hire those folks but not give them free reign.  They (and Tim Burton) only had the chance to come up with a crappy sequel because their first try was so successful. 

Sometimes you get lightning in a bottle. After the success of Batman, the studio seemed to think anything named 'Batman' would make money -- and they were correct .. until they went too far off the rails.
The same thing seems to be happening with Disney: thinking they can make make a profit with anything that has the MCU branding. 

[Raja]

16 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Sometimes you get lightning in a bottle. After the success of Batman, the studio seemed to think anything named 'Batman' would make money -- and they were correct .. until they went too far off the rails.
The same thing seems to be happening with Disney: thinking they can make make a profit with anything that has the MCU branding. 

What Disney missed was its exclusive streaming service which needs an unending stream of fresh content. 3 out of 4 just okay movies, with others saying the worst movie ever would have a portion of the box office waiting for a post Echo home video release. 

[aghst]

Captain Marvel grossed $1.1 billion worldwide.

The Marvels may not even crack $250 million according to some projections.

I noticed that they like to use different directors.  It's as if they think the characters and the story, which I guess is collaboratively mapped out across all MCU movies and shows by Feige and his team, are the main draw and the "guest directors" approach won't matter as much.

They haven't been wrong for a decade.

But maybe just having good-looking actors crack wise while beating up  baddies with overloaded special effects has run its course.

 

 

[shantown]

I liked this movie a lot. But it had an uphill battle from the start to be considered (financially) successful - or even get a fair shot at being liked. The original Captain Marvel movie, which I loved, premiered between the two final Avengers movies which played a huge part in the billion dollar box office it achieved. Make a billion dollars and you're pretty much guaranteed a sequel. But the unfortunate storm of MCU being on a downswing when this came out, the superhero movie backlash that's been growing, the actor's strike meaning no promotion from the stars, and the ridiculous internet hatred of Brie Larson and... well it had a lot working against it.

If the movie could stand on it's own - without being compared financially to the first, or to earlier Marvel movies, or without review bombing because morons don't like the "woke MCU" or whatever nonsense they whine about - I think it would have been received much better than it was. It was a fun movie that packed a lot (I dare say it packed too much) of story and character building into a short film. It set up some wonderful things should they choose to continue Monica or Carol or Kamala's story. It had some really funny lines, a great fight sequence, questionable yet fun science. I wish people could appreciate it for what it was instead of writing it off as a failure because it didn't meet the expectations of 5 other things.

But what do I know... I liked Batman and Robin. :)

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Theory #1: Marvel shouldn't hand out movie projects like 'prizes' to directors and writers who don't understand or care about the source material.
 Taika Waititi (Love & Thunder) and Patty Jenkins (Wonder Woman 1984) gave their iconic comic characters a type of cartoon character treatment.
Long-time comics fans were not pleased. 
Joel Schumacher's "Batman Forever" effectively killed Batman for several years.
(correction: Schumacher's "Batman and Robin" )

Theory #2:  Warner Brothers' promotion for The Flash damaged all future movie promotion. 
Steven King said he liked The Flash.  Director James Gunn had some quote about The Flash being the best superhero movie he had ever seen. (!?!) Warner Bros. even got Tom Cruise to say something positive. (!)
The general public did not believe the hype.
Maybe people did not trust the vague, non-specific praise The Marvels received: "it's fun",  "lots of wacky shenanigans", "the actors seemed to be having a blast". 

These are actual quotes from the positive reviews on RottenTomatoes:
"The trend toward general wackiness continues with The Marvels."
"It’s silly and makes little sense, but it’s such a fun time at the movies. "
"But anyone will enjoy the nutty vibe that drives the chaotic plot, which is so formulaic that it requires no thought at all."
With such faint praise, is it any wonder that the average movie goer was not running to the theater on opening weekend? 

Theory #3: Comicbook characters with no 'classic' storylines, well-known support characters and well-known arch enemies are a tough sell: 
People know Aunt May, Lois Lane, Mary-Jane Watson, Alfred, Commissioner Gordon, Bucky Barnes, Lex Luthor, Red Skull, Green Goblin, etc. -- and they want to see them brought to life, too. 
Not a lot of people know very much about the character Blue Beetle, ergo not a lot people show up to see the Blue Beetle movie. 

I don’t think any of those things are substantial factors. I think it’s a combination of the bad timing of Covid completely changing how people watch movies, the natural criticism cycle within fandoms, Marvel doing a shit job of appealing to the new fans they acquired with characters like Wanda and Carol and complete over saturation of the market. 

I know several people who loved Wanda and Carol coming out of Endgame who were completely turned off by Wanda’s story in Multiverse of Madness and completely checked out by the time this movie came around. People who thought Captain Marvel and WandaVision signaled stories they cared about would be the focus. I am a big Marvel fan but am still struggling to find any optimism for the franchise given how multiple female characters have been treated. 

Marvel does a pretty good job of taking care of how these women are treated in projects that focus on them, like She-Hulk, WandaVision and The Marvels, but as soon as you return to the male-led projects women repeatedly get screwed over. It’s demoralizing. 

[Tenshinhan]

6 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Theory #1: Marvel shouldn't hand out movie projects like 'prizes' to directors and writers who don't understand or care about the source material.
 Taika Waititi (Love & Thunder) and Patty Jenkins (Wonder Woman 1984) gave their iconic comic characters a type of cartoon character treatment.
Long-time comics fans were not pleased. 
Joel Schumacher's "Batman Forever" effectively killed Batman for several years.
(correction: Schumacher's "Batman and Robin" )

Say what you will about the quality of those films, but I would argue that Schumacher's films displayed a greater understanding of the source material than Tim Burton's.

I don't think that the issue is with long-term comics fans.  You can ignore the source material and still make a good film that general audiences will enjoy.  The problem is bad filmmaking when directors and writers have bad ideas and churn out mediocre stories.

3 hours ago, shantown said:

But what do I know... I liked Batman and Robin. :)

There's a lot to like about it.  It's a fun and entertaining movie, in spite of its overall negative qualities.

[tv echo]

The Meowvels | Now Playing In Theaters
Marvel Entertainment    Nov 21, 2023

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by tv echo

[Spartan Girl]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:08 PM, tennisgurl said:

Honestly, how can people hate a movie that features cute little alien kitties eating people all over a space station as Memory from Cats plays dramatically in the background?

I DIED at that part!

Screw the haters, I loved this movie. I know MCU burnout is a real thing and it didn’t help that K.E.V.I.N. seems bound and determined to screw over every female character that deserved so much more (Wanda, Sharon, Gamora, Natasha), but a fun adventure with a genuine female team up was sorely needed.

Loved everything Carol, Monica, and Kamala. Especially them practicing switching powers via jump rope.

Okay, the MCU seriously needs to stop making sympathetic villains happen. Dar-Ben was willing to play the victim even though she damn well knew what the Kree did to the Skrulls and stealing resources and killing from other planets to help her own doesn’t justify her in the slightest. And OFC she immediately betrays the Marvels when they offer to save Halla. Villains are always gonna villain.

I get that Carol kind of made things worse, I just hate that she got more crap for it than someone did for his actions. On that note, at least she managed to be there for Maria during the Blip and before she died of cancer. 

Valkyrie! Always good to see her.

The musical planet and Carol’s princess gown was delightful. Was Brie really singing?

If the writers don’t give a shit about Secret Invasion, neither do I. It was so damn good to see Fury be Fury again. His interactions with the Khans were gold.

Ordinarily, I’d be mad that Monica had to sacrifice herself, but she’s not dead just stuck in the multiverse, so I’m good. If the X-Men are coming to the MCU, I sure hope they do better by Patrick Stewart than MoM did.

Screw everyone and everything that made this movie flop. It’s like the Ghostbusters bullshit all over again. But maybe it could still pick up, because I want more of this trio.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

9 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Okay, the MCU seriously needs to stop making sympathetic villains happen. Dar-Ben was willing to play the victim even though she damn well knew what the Kree did to the Skrulls and stealing resources and killing from other planets to help her own doesn’t justify her in the slightest. And OFC she immediately betrays the Marvels when they offer to save Halla. Villains are always gonna villain.

They will, but there is the slight argument that Dar-Benn was a victim of the Supreme Intelligence as well. Not on the same level as Carol, certainly, but it's never made entirely clear how the SI got total control of Hala, because the planet was failing because what amounts to an AI had wormed its way into everything. Like Yon-Rogg before her, Dar-Benn bought the lie that the SI was leading the Kree to victory over the Skrulls, but there's the chance or even the likelihood that the Supreme Intelligence aimed the Kree's warriors at the Skrulls as a distraction while it quietly continued its takeover. How else would its destruction doom the planet to a slow death?

[Fukui San]

I made sure to see it this week since it may be exiting theatres sooner than later. Thought it was a lot of fun, and I did not suffer from not having seen all of Ms. Marvel or any of Secret Invasion. The teleportation switch ups made for fun action scenes. Some of the character motivations were a bit iffy, but the relationship of the three leads made up for it. 
 

They do assume that you know everything MCU. When they are getting the refugee Skrulls to safety, they only give context clues that tell us who is taking them where.  A line like “Hey Valkyrie, thanks for taking them to Asgard” would be good. (I think? Wasn’t Asgard destroyed? Or did it come back in Love and Thunder?)

As the gaps in my knowledge demonstrate, there was too much stuff to keep track of. I didn’t see half of the movie offerings this year and have no plans to. But this one sounded fun and was fun. 

[Raja]

5 hours ago, Fukui San said:

(I think? Wasn’t Asgard destroyed? Or did it come back in Love and Thunder?)

Asgard was destroyed in Thor: Ragnarok. In the post Avengers: Endgame productions New Asgard is in some Norwegian fiord. Which of course makes the American President's statement and future goals in Secret Invasion a beyond stupid place to lead a nation.

[Spartan Girl]

7 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

They will, but there is the slight argument that Dar-Benn was a victim of the Supreme Intelligence as well. Not on the same level as Carol, certainly, but it's never made entirely clear how the SI got total control of Hala, because the planet was failing because what amounts to an AI had wormed its way into everything. Like Yon-Rogg before her, Dar-Benn bought the lie that the SI was leading the Kree to victory over the Skrulls, but there's the chance or even the likelihood that the Supreme Intelligence aimed the Kree's warriors at the Skrulls as a distraction while it quietly continued its takeover. How else would its destruction doom the planet to a slow death?

Granted. But Yan-Rogg still kidnapped and brainwashed Carol, and Dar-Benn still sabotaged the peace talks and was willing to endanger tons of other planets just to save her own and get back and Carol. So IDGAF if they were victims of the SI or not.

Am I the only one that missed Carol’s Blip haircut? I guess she got in solidarity with Maria. And now that we have confirmation that she was with Maria til the end** and knew she never got to see Monica again, I appreciated that look of pure hatred she gave Thanos right before she headbutted him in Endgame even more.

**See what I did there? 😉 

[Raja]

13 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

 

Am I the only one that missed Carol’s Blip haircut?

Did I mention it on this site or another that I really hate they called it "the blip". In Spider-Man as a joke among kids who came back after the Battle Of Earth that spread I can give them. But for that 5 year gap when half of life just disappeared for "the blip" to be the term that arose is inhuman.

[rmontro]

On 11/20/2023 at 1:39 PM, shrewd.buddha said:

I may have gotten my Batman movies mixed up. Which was the one with Bat nipples on the uniform?  I think it also had Arnold Schwarzenegger and a Bat credit card.  

Those movies are confusingly named.  Batman Forever was actually the third one, but it sounds like it should have been the fourth (Batman 4ever - the one with Schwarzenegger).  Meanwhile, Batman & Robin was actually the fourth.

 

On 11/20/2023 at 8:24 PM, Tenshinhan said:

I don't think that the issue is with long-term comics fans.  You can ignore the source material and still make a good film that general audiences will enjoy. 

You can, but I don't think that makes it a good idea.  Marvel has several problems right now, and one of them is the perception that they don't really care about the core comic book fans.  You never got that impression in the early days when they were putting out Iron Man and The Avengers.

Other problems are, of course, superhero fatigue, inserting politics into the movies, and lazy writing (which includes ignoring the source material).

[shrewd.buddha]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

Marvel has several problems right now, and one of them is the perception that they don't really care about the core comic book fans.

The promotion for Barbie was savy enough to say it was for the people who love Barbie and for the people who don't.  Better to be inclusive and invite everyone.  It is not helpful when directors or actors say things like "I made this move for [some group]" or "This movie wasn't made for [some group]."  ..even if the comments were well intentioned.  

[Tenshinhan]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

Other problems are, of course, superhero fatigue, inserting politics into the movies, and lazy writing (which includes ignoring the source material).

Like they have always done in the comic books?  And in every other genre of fiction ever?

1 hour ago, shrewd.buddha said:

It is not helpful when directors or actors say things like "I made this move for [some group]" or "This movie wasn't made for [some group]."  ..even if the comments were well intentioned.

Any directors or actors in particular that you are referring to?

[rmontro]

6 hours ago, Tenshinhan said:

Like they have always done in the comic books?  And in every other genre of fiction ever?

Two things about that:  First, there is a matter of degree.  The early Marvel movies did not give off the idea that they were pushing politics.  Second, the political environment is especially toxic now, so jumping into that fray simply invites more toxicity.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, rmontro said:

The early Marvel movies did not give off the idea that they were pushing politics. 

I disagree. Tony “Merchant of Death” Stark transitioning to the man who wanted to protect innocents after being personally victimized by terrorism is very political. Nearly every Marvel movie has dealt with political/societal issues in some way. I see very little difference between the politics of Captain Marvel and The Marvels and the politics of the early movies beyond the leads no longer white men. The themes are the same.