S03:E09 The Grand Jury

[ifionlyknew]

10 minutes ago, DanaK said:

It seems the whole ordeal was just because Clinton's enemies wanted to catch him doing something illegal, so they tried to get him to lie about his affair with Monica while he was being deposed about Paula.

Yes, they knew exactly what they were doing which is why they needed to get Monica to write that statement before Clinton's deposition.  I've mentioned before the utter glee Starr and his team showed with "getting the goods on Clinton" is so gross.  They cared not one iota about destroying a young woman's life.

[Jillybean]

1 hour ago, hookedontv said:

That's actually a very good point. Beanie's voice is much more childish than Monica's. While Monica was in her earlier 20's when this happened, Beanie's performance to me seems to be more bewildered and childish. I feel that Monica had more poise than Beanie is giving, if that makes any sense. 

Speaking of voices, Paula Jones still sounds the same. 

If I were Monica I think I would have cried in that interview giving all those personal details.

When Sarah Paulson removed her glasses she looked even more like Linda Tripp. It was eerie! 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Jillybean

[hookedontv]

30 minutes ago, Jillybean said:

Speaking of voices, Paula Jones still sounds the same. 

If I were Monica I think I would have cried in that interview giving all those personal details.

When Sarah Paulson removed her glasses she looked even more like Linda Tripp. It was eerie! 

Whoa - Paula Jones still sounds the same and the actress portraying her really nailed her voice. And look, obviously. 

I wouldn't have held up well with that questioning in the room with the one woman, how embarrassing and mortifying to have to reveal that level of detail. And all with the "these are the terms of the agreement or else" looming over her all the time. 

That was eerie when Sara Paulson removed her glasses. This show has led me down a rabbit hole on occasion. In addition to Paula Jones' nose job, I totally forgot about Linda Tripp's subsequent plastic surgeries. 

[mostlylurking]

On 11/2/2021 at 10:30 PM, peridot said:

I can't believe Starr didn't care about a rape, and wanted it buried in the appendix.  Man, none of these guys cared about women at all.

All he cared about was catching Clinton in the lie.  He didn’t give a shit about anything else.  You would think an allegation of rape would be a tad bit more serious than a consensual affair, but yes please, let’s continue to talk in detail about blowies and cigars.   Meanwhile Osama bin Laden is sitting in a cave planning 9/11. Just disgusting.

I loved how Linda was hiding out in a hotel (for more attention) yet her daughter was like no one is at the house, no one even cares.  

On 11/2/2021 at 10:53 PM, txhorns79 said:

Also, I loved Linda's line about how her comment about the tie was meant as "Pro-Marshall's" rather than being pro-affair. 

I mean in fairness Marshalls is pretty awesome.  That’s probably the only thing I can agree with her about.

There is NO EXCUSE for Linda taping Monica, her supposed friend.  Absolutely none.  Monica’s life was literally ruined and Clinton was impeached for lying about a consensual affair (who gives a shit??) but not removed from office so again, who cares??  I’m so glad the grand jury saw right through her.  Sidebar - I kind of don’t understand being impeached but not removed from office.  If a president is impeached but gets to continue doing his job anyway?  Seems like a gigantic waste of time.

[mostlylurking]

On 11/2/2021 at 11:27 PM, lovinbob said:

And also, god love her—she was so honest.

Also how did she even remember all those details and dates??  Does she have a photographic memory? Was Bill just that good??  I couldn’t for the life of me remember practically every single sexual encounter I had with a specific person with that much detail.  That’s just nuts.

[mostlylurking]

3 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

On 11/3/2021 at 2:06 AM, hoodooznoodooz said:

Despite my opinion of her as a human being and how delusional she was, I thought Linda’s statement was pretty good.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that. I was like, "Wait a second...this is actually valid, and cogent."

The thing that messes it up is the tapes though.  She taped her suppose friend for hours and hours without her consent.  Now if there were no tapes and Monica asked Linda to lie under oath I agree that’s totally wrong and Linda was under no obligation to lie for Monica.  But I can’t forget the tapes and Linda deliberately trapping Monica, saying things like “refresh my memory, what happened on such and such day…..”. That’s just being a straight scumbag.  So when Linda says “I’m just like you”, many people were like yeah, no.

[Ailianna]

3 hours ago, mostlylurking said:

Sidebar - I kind of don’t understand being impeached but not removed from office.  If a president is impeached but gets to continue doing his job anyway?  Seems like a gigantic waste of time.

Impeachment is the political equivalent of being arrested. People still have a right to a trial before losing their jobs. Even though the trial is also hopelessly political.

[Ms Blue Jay]

7 hours ago, mostlylurking said:

Also how did she even remember all those details and dates??  Does she have a photographic memory? Was Bill just that good??  I couldn’t for the life of me remember practically every single sexual encounter I had with a specific person with that much detail.  That’s just nuts.

Aw come on LOL. I think people would remember having sex with the President.

[CeeBeeGee]

7 hours ago, mostlylurking said:

Sidebar - I kind of don’t understand being impeached but not removed from office.  If a president is impeached but gets to continue doing his job anyway?  Seems like a gigantic waste of time.

 

4 hours ago, Ailianna said:

Impeachment is the political equivalent of being arrested. People still have a right to a trial before losing their jobs. Even though the trial is also hopelessly political.

 

A slight correction--I would say, think of impeachment as the political equivalent of being indicted. And the trial in the Senate is the equivalent of--well, a regular trial, a petit jury trial.

[ifionlyknew]

16 hours ago, mostlylurking said:

All he cared about was catching Clinton in the lie.  He didn’t give a shit about anything else.  

 

16 hours ago, mostlylurking said:

 Monica’s life was literally ruined and Clinton was impeached for lying about a consensual affair (who gives a shit??)

Let's not forget Starr was appointed Special Counsel to investigate the Whitewater land deal.  When nothing came of that he moved on to the Paula Jones sexual harassment claim which wouldn't have been an impeachable offense.  Then he finds out about Monica.  Which in and of itself is not an impeachable offense.  However lying about it is.  Lucianne Goldberg told Linda to tape Monica.  Once that  happened and Starr had the tapes he knew he could finally nail Clinton.    So yes the United States had a president impeached because he lied about getting a blow job.  I remember when this was happening having an argument with someone that yes Clinton should be impeached because he lied and my response was but he was lying to a question that most men in that position would have lied about also.  How many married men are going to admit to cheating on their wives during a deposition?

Edited November 5, 2021 by ifionlyknew

[qtpye]

2 minutes ago, ifionlyknew said:

 

Let's not forget Starr was appointed Special Counsel to investigate the Whitewater land deal.  When nothing came of that he moved on to the Paula Jones sexual harassment claim which wouldn't have been an impeachable offense.  Then he finds out about Monica.  Which in and of itself is not an impeachable offense.  However lying about it is.  Lucianne Goldberg told Linda to tape Monica.  Once that  happened and Starr had the tapes he knew he could finally nail Clinton.    So yes the United States had a president impeached because he lied about getting a blow job.  I remember when this was happening having an argument with someone that yes Clinton should be impeached because he lied and my response was but he was lying to a question that most men in that position would have lied about also.  How many married men are going to admit to cheating on their wives during a deposition?

I think one of the things the show fails to portray is how popular Clinton was with the American people.

Of course, not everybody loved him but many people really liked the man and he was incredibly charming.

The economy was going gangbusters, 9/11 had not happened, yet, and things like the Great Recession and Pandemics were unimaginable. 

It would frustrate the hell out of his political enemies.

[mostlylurking]

9 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Aw come on LOL. I think people would remember having sex with the President

Lol….I mean yeah of course you are going to remember it but every detail??  “He took my bra off, oh actually sometimes he lifted my boobies out of my bra, oh and then this other minute detail…..”.  I don’t know.  Maybe when I was 24 my memory was better, ha!

[qtpye]

1 minute ago, mostlylurking said:

Lol….I mean yeah of course you are going to remember it but every detail??  “He took my bra off, oh actually sometimes he lifted my boobies out of my bra, oh and then this other minute detail…..”.  I don’t know.  Maybe when I was 24 my memory was better, ha!

I think part of it was that she thought she was madly in love with the guy.

Monica probably looked at their encounters through these incredibly romantic rose-colored glasses. She remembered every detail like a Harlequin novel.

It was probably not until she had to describe it out loud that she realized a lot of it was cheap/tawdry and how one-sided the whole affair actually was. 

[chlban]

1 hour ago, ifionlyknew said:

 

Let's not forget Starr was appointed Special Counsel to investigate the Whitewater land deal.  When nothing came of that he moved on to the Paula Jones sexual harassment claim which wouldn't have been an impeachable offense.  Then he finds out about Monica.  Which in and of itself is not an impeachable offense.  However lying about it is.  Lucianne Goldberg told Linda to tape Monica.  Once that  happened and Starr had the tapes he knew he could finally nail Clinton.    So yes the United States had a president impeached because he lied about getting a blow job.  I remember when this was happening having an argument with someone that yes Clinton should be impeached because he lied and my response was but he was lying to a question that most men in that position would have lied about also.  How many married men are going to admit to cheating on their wives during a deposition?

It doesn't matter what most men would do. It matters that the POTUS lied under oath. I had several similar arguments during that time. I was totally on the side of "I don't care about his sex life" and against impeachment UNTIL he lied under oath. 

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

When Bill was pleading and crying with Hillary, I wanted her to ask "Then why the hell have you continued to cheat on me all throughout our marriage?"

Also, I doubt Monica was the last.

I remember when Al Gore ran, he talked about what a good husband and family man he was to separate himself from the Clinton scandals.

In the end, Hillary and Bill are still married while Al and Tipper are divorced.

Life can be weird.

 

Just now, chlban said:

That's just one more truly sad thing about this. He was a pretty good POTUS and as long as everyone is of age and consenting, I don't care who they sleep with. But, this entire circus will always be what people remember about him. If he had just admitted the truth, in the beginning, it would have still hurt his legacy, but not to the same degree. Most people now know that JFK cheated and Eisenhower and Roosevelt both had long term mistresses, but those actions don't seem to define them like Clintons actions have.

I think some of us learned the hard way that there are worse things a leader can do other than just be a crap husband. Bottom line, Bill Clinton was a great President, but I’m just glad I’m not married to him.

[ifionlyknew]

6 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

 

I think some of us learned the hard way that there are worse things a leader can do other than just be a crap husband. Bottom line, Bill Clinton was a great President, but I’m just glad I’m not married to him.

At the time I think that is what most people thought.  I know I did.  Also the public already knew about Gennifer Flowers so it's not like this thing with Monica came out of left field. 

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, ifionlyknew said:

 

Let's not forget Starr was appointed Special Counsel to investigate the Whitewater land deal.  When nothing came of that he moved on to the Paula Jones sexual harassment claim which wouldn't have been an impeachable offense.  Then he finds out about Monica.  Which in and of itself is not an impeachable offense.  However lying about it is.  Lucianne Goldberg told Linda to tape Monica.  Once that  happened and Starr had the tapes he knew he could finally nail Clinton.    So yes the United States had a president impeached because he lied about getting a blow job.  I remember when this was happening having an argument with someone that yes Clinton should be impeached because he lied and my response was but he was lying to a question that most men in that position would have lied about also.  How many married men are going to admit to cheating on their wives during a deposition?

Not just Whitewater though. He also investigated the death of Vince Foster, the firing of the White House Travel Office personnel, potential political abuse of confidential FBI files, the Rose Law Firm, Madison Guaranty, and the Paula Jones lawsuit (thanks Wikipedia). I mean, he was allowed to expand into these other investigations, but it was a big sprawling mess of stuff. Before the Lewinsky scandal, nothing he investigated found anything on the Clintons themselves. I feel to this day that maybe someone else should have investigated the Paula Jones and Lewinsky stuff as it just feels like Starr might have taken on too much and possibly might have been frustrated in not getting something on the Clintons at that point. Forcing Monica to detail all the sex acts with Clinton totally feels icky, wrong and unnecessary even to this day

As for Clinton lying under oath in the Jones deposition about a separate affair, it still feels like something like that doesn't rise to the level of impeachment, or even warrant a big investigation; a Congressional censure would have sufficed.

[ifionlyknew]

9 minutes ago, DanaK said:

I feel to this day that maybe someone else should have investigated the Paula Jones and Lewinsky stuff as it just feels like Starr might have taken on too much and possibly might have been frustrated in not getting something on the Clintons at that point.

Yes. They kept throwing everything at the wall hoping something would finally stick.  It's amazing how that Special Counsel investigation was allowed to encompass so many different investigations.  I was under the assumption those investigations are supposed to have a very narrow focus.

[wendyg]

On 11/4/2021 at 8:38 PM, mostlylurking said:

Also how did she even remember all those details and dates??  Does she have a photographic memory? Was Bill just that good??  I couldn’t for the life of me remember practically every single sexual encounter I had with a specific person with that much detail.  That’s just nuts.

Well, she went through them all earlier to make the spreadsheet with Tripp, so that would have cemented them in her mind. But I think it's characteristic of a relationship that consists of scraps that you pay a lot of attention to every scrap and embed it deeply in your memory.

I think the real Monica Lewinsky has a sort of brashness about her that this actress is not showing, and I do wonder if Lewinsky internally sees herself as more of the innocent naive deer in the headlights that Feldstein is portraying and doesn't realize that to others she comes across differently. (I also think that seeming brashness is one reason she got pilloried so badly.)

[emmawoodhouse]

As a producer, I'm sure Monica had a say in how she was portrayed. And I agree that it's entirely possible that she saw herself as a deer in the headlights. It's impossible to know when she realized what a pawn she was in all this, but as Beanie plays her innocent and naive (and frustrated), it doesn't seem to be on her radar at this point in time.

[Spartan Girl]

You got to admire how calm and collected Monica was while listening to all of Linda's tapes and signing off on them. I wouldn't blame her if she was trying to calculate how much it would have cost to send a hitman after Linda knowing that she was planning to screw her over all along.

[kassa]

On 11/4/2021 at 4:48 PM, mostlylurking said:

The thing that messes it up is the tapes though.  She taped her suppose friend for hours and hours without her consent.  Now if there were no tapes and Monica asked Linda to lie under oath I agree that’s totally wrong and Linda was under no obligation to lie for Monica.  But I can’t forget the tapes and Linda deliberately trapping Monica, saying things like “refresh my memory, what happened on such and such day…..”. That’s just being a straight scumbag.  So when Linda says “I’m just like you”, many people were like yeah, no.

Exactly. This followed on the heels of TheMorallyCorruptFayeResnick(TM RHoBH) doing a tell all on her murdered friend. That stuff was still shocking in the 90s - but this had the added effect of the person shopping a book deal around while in the actual process of betraying the friend and setting her up. It's pretty common now for insiders to hold back their knowledge until they sell it in a book, but it wasn't then. Insider memoirs tended to appear years later, when things had calmed down. So racing to appear in front of the cameras as the star of the show was tied up with the appearance of famewhoredom - and who doesn't like a good case of "who the hell do you think you are?!"

We can't lose sight of the misogyny and looks-ism that added to the glee of the circus atmosphere. But at its core, as Mostlylurking says, there was revulsion at Tripp's tone deafness that she was acting nobly when not only her original actions but all her posturing after the fact was waaaaay outside societal norms.  

[Joimiaroxeu]

ROTATE.

Was that the usual physical setup for a grand jury or was it a function of the production's COVID protocols?

I also wonder if that grand jury dialogue as presented in the show was accurate. Seems like they had the older Black women coming across as particularly judgmental in their questions, in an almost personal way.  Is that actually allowed IRL?

But then the grand jury turned sympathetic to Monica at the end because of the way the FBI had held her hostage in the hotel room and wouldn't let her bring in her own attorney. Weird.

"More of a pro-Marshall's". Not an inducement for Monica to keep the affair going so you can keep recording your phone conversations with her. Linda had a rare talent for justifying everything she did.

TMW you realize you are not being seen as the American political hero you thought you were.

Linda: I'm you.
Half the world: No, you're not.

All those gory details about Monica and Bill's sexual activity, now available for the public to read, is the reason why Monica's fate was sealed against her ever getting married. At least not married to the kind of man she'd imagined she'd be with.

Rape reduced to a "various sexual experience." Ugh. I think Starr's callous decision on that issue might've made the difference between Clinton being removed from office or not. Despite the statute of limitations, I think a significant number of Democratic women would have turned against Clinton on that accusation, in a straw-that-broke-the- camel's-back kind of way.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Joimiaroxeu

[BoogieBurns]

On 11/4/2021 at 7:56 AM, ifionlyknew said:

 I don't think it was his physical appearance that was so alluring.  People say he is very charming in person. And there is a the whole smart and powerful thing going on.   I myself never found him appealing. I always thought Al Gore was way more attractive.

I remember having a crush on him when I saw him play sax on Arsenio. I was 6. Lol. I have a thing for silver foxes. Always have. 

There's a sparkle in his eye. He's magnetic. I was ignorant enough to think he was a harmless attractive man for his whole presidency. I really was clueless about the affairs and such.

John Mulaney talks of Clinton's charm in a stand up special. Billy boy was getting all the girls back in college (which he attended with Mulaney's parents) and he never stopped.