S03:E05 Do You Hear What I Hear?

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

 I find the lack of characterization of Monica to be the real issue here.  The plot is forcing Monica to do something but we never get any insight into her motivation.  The show is too focused on shoving lines of dialogue into the script to rile up the 2021 audience like the Brett Kavanaugh one or including scenes of Monica with Jake Tapper just because instead of giving the audience insight into who Monica Lewinsky was in 1997.  

I think this might be part of the problem with giving Lewinsky such a large part in the direction of the series. I think they didn’t want to make a series about her without her input but at the same time, she’s not an objective observer. She wants her portrayal to be a certain way. 

[DanaK]

Clinton and Lewinsky were certainly wrong in wanting to lie in depositions and at trial about the affair, but so many people were trying to use the affair, and anything else they could gets their hands on, just to get Clinton. It’s disgusting, and Monica got used and abused by them as a weapon in their war against the Clintons. Ken Starr’s 2 assistants (was one of them Brett Kavanaugh?) were chomping at the bit to find any way they could, including the affair, to keep their investigations going to find something on the Clintons. Involving the FBI and everyone else for something that was an affair just seemed like overkill. I guess some of that was due to accusations Clinton and Lewinsky were going to lie on depositions and a trial, but that wouldn’t have happened if Tripp hadn’t involved herself with Lewinsky and trying to get something on Clinton. What a mess that ended up being

[ifionlyknew]

11 hours ago, babyhouseman said:

I'm not excusing him, but I wonder if he has a sex addiction. He's so smart and charming, but addictions can affect the smartest people. 

My shrink says the same thing. That it is was more than just him being a dog.

 

 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Then I just learned that [Beanie] is Jonah Hill's sister

I try really hard not to hold that against her.

[Guest]

If you wish to continue to post in this thread, please make sure your post is about American Crime Story Season 3. If your post brings in another politician not mentioned on the episode, it will be removed and you will receive a warning. If your post is about a political figure on the show but is unrelated to the episode, it will be removed and you will receive a warning.

The topic is not the Clintons. The topic is the episode of the show that includes portrayals of the Clintons.

[helenamonster]

I was wondering about the legality of Linda's tapes as well, so it was good to get clarity in this episode. A lot of people get bitten by not realizing they're in a two-party consent state.

Weird to see the insufferably vulgar Roger Furlong as insufferably pious Ken Starr.

I did not like that Kavanaugh line at all and found it foul. It was an easy shot and at the expense of an uninvolved person. I just generally don't appreciate when writers try to be "cute" in works based on real events by calling forward to the future. It's never as clever as they think it is.

Monica was clearly an emotionally fragile person at this time, and it was painful to watch people take advantage of that. Linda telling her she looked fat in that dress to get her to not wear it? Just a supremely fucked up thing to do to somebody. If somebody told me I looked fat in something it would be whatever, but Linda knew what a painpoint Monica's weight was.

I also felt bad for Paula. Whether or not the story about her at that party was true, it's disgusting to imply that just because somebody has had a lot of sexual partners means they're ineligible to be subject to unwanted sexual advances. Were we really still so buttoned up about that sort of thing in 1997?

[chlban]

On 10/6/2021 at 2:15 PM, qtpye said:

 

We have been shown a lonely and almost friendless Linda, so the jolly, " I have a Christmas party every year and fill my house with people" thing seems so odd.

I know she was obsessed with Christmas but I think she was a little more socially savvy than what is being portrayed on the show. I think they are trying to make her look more pathetic to make her seem more sympathetic.

Linda has a cute house which was probably not cheap in the DC area.

Yeah, the house really struck me. I am sure after all those years she was paid well, but well enough to own that home? I assume DC suburbs are pricey, but maybe not. There is an ex husband too so maybe he pays generous child support? I know that when Linda remarried, she and her husband opened a Christmas shop.

[chlban]

On 10/6/2021 at 6:39 PM, tvfanatic13 said:

Nope. Still don’t like Beanie in the role. And Linda Tripp is still an ass. Is Hillary going to have ANY role in this show?

I don't like Beanie in the role either, and it's oddly distracting. The guy playing Clinton has grown on me. He has captured Clinton's mannerisms which makes up for not looking much like him. Of course, most of us know very little about Monica. I think the Paula Jones actress is excellent in the role. But  I have to say the Ann Coulter actrss perfect. Looks, voice, that manner of speaking, when I watch I see Ann  Coulter on the screen.

Edited October 10, 2021 by chlban

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

On 10/5/2021 at 8:28 PM, txhorns79 said:

I was very surprised by this because they previously played it like they all hated her.  I mean, we've seen she and her cubicle mate engage in passive aggressive loathing for one another, so to see the same woman at the party loving Linda's dip felt off. 

All it takes is Linda browbeating the boss and few other people into going, and everyone else will fall in line. You're afraid that you'll stand out if you don't go.

 

On 10/6/2021 at 7:54 AM, SailorGirl said:

Linda's encouragement of Monica to wear a peach colored outfit over a navy dress should have been the tip-off -- most women who struggle with their weight know that dark colors are more slimming than light colors -- especially peach! 

 

On 10/6/2021 at 8:58 AM, Retired at last said:

Seriously, who would believe that peach would look better????

When Linda said that, my wife responded with "In New York, they'll expect you to dress in dark colors for a job interview."

 

On 10/6/2021 at 11:31 AM, Route66 said:

She comes across as someone with a very low level of emotional intelligence. For all her practical experience and knowledge, she was unable or unwilling to "play the game."  She seemed genuinely surprised that nobody at the White House valued her enough to have her work there. It was clearly incredibly painful for her to verbalize the fact that Monica was getting these fabulous job opportunities just because of Vernon Jordan. She was crushed to recognize the fact that nobody valued what she had to offer.

In my adult life, I've made it a point to ingratiate myself with every boss and coworker I've had. It got me what I wanted and made my working life soooo much easier. My ex-wife was a lot like Linda: she'd be brusque and snarky with coworkers and bosses she didn't like, then wonder why "the ass-kissers" got opportunities she never did.

 

On 10/6/2021 at 5:19 PM, jschoolgirl said:

And Vernon Jordan was an enormous man, and he had that sort of knowing smirk about him. This actor, too, is too slight, and he hasn't gotten the smirk down.

The actor looked familiar, and then I realized he's Blair "Jonathan Rollins" Underwood from L.A. Law (which apparently is returning with Underwood himself in the lead --- ABC just ordered a pilot).

 

On 10/6/2021 at 7:36 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

Yeah, I'm sorry to Beanie but her face - especially the eyes - are just SO DIFFERENT from Monica and I can't get past it.  There have to be actors out there who somewhat resemble Monica.  

Beanie may not look much like Monica beyond the big teeth, but she is perfectly playing an emotional child besotted with a much older man.

 

On 10/7/2021 at 11:31 AM, gesundheit said:

So much. What was that line in the episode again? When Linda said something like "well, not everyone lives in New York!" and Lucianne said something like "yes, I do always have trouble understanding that" or something in this beautiful, dripping way. Absolutely spectacular delivery. We could've gotten zero other scenes and zero other context and that would have told us SO MUCH about who the character is. Martindale is so wonderful.

It reminded me of that scene in Taps when one of the parents tells Timothy Hutton's soldier father "Not all of us are in the army!" and he replies with a curt "No need to apologize, ma'am."

Meanwhile, I don't know if Rae Dawn Chong has had a lot of plastic surgery or the makeup is just that good, but I had no idea she was playing Betty Currie until I looked it up.

Did anyone else think Bill's gift-giving in the Oval Office was intended both to make sure Monica was keeping her story straight, and also as a simultaneously warm and caring, but definitive and final GOODBYE?

Edited October 10, 2021 by Sir RaiderDuck OMS

[CeeBeeGee]

 

On 10/5/2021 at 11:45 PM, choclatechip45 said:

Yes https://washingtoncitypaper.com/article/279465/i-dated-monica-lewinsky/

I lived in DC during all of this and I well remember reading that article in the City Paper (for those who don't know, it's like the DC version of the Village Voice). The article was such a breath of decency and kindness amid all the dreadful pillorying of Monica. I've liked Jake Tapper ever since. And they cast the guy who played him perfectly!

[SarahPrtr]

 

On 10/7/2021 at 8:53 AM, txhorns79 said:

Here is the real thing.  I don't think she had lived there for nearly twenty years before she passed away. 

That's the kind of free-standing house I wouldn't mind living in, if it were in a quiet, safe neighbourhood.  I really loved Juanita's house.  I love that style, with the wrap-around porch.  I'm imagining it with a porch swing.  I always give in to all the housing clichés!!

 

I was actually wondering if they were going to cast someone as Juanita and I'm glad that she's in it.  She's an important part of this story.  Those manipulative leeches trying to guilt trip her into giving a statement by bringing God into the conversation??!!  I wanted to scream and stomp on their feet!!  Met too many of those people when I was at church.  One of the reasons why stopped going.

 

On 10/7/2021 at 3:57 PM, Refresh said:

I think Beanie is doing a great job acting, but yea, I keep seeing Beanie. Not Monica. However, maybe it's a comparison thing? Most of her scenes are with Sarah Paulson who is very disguised, which makes you notice it more.

It's not unreasonable to expect the actors playing the parts of real people to resemble them.  The only thing that Beanie and Monica seem to have in common is that they both have dark hair. 

[kj4ever]

59 minutes ago, SarahPrtr said:

 

That's the kind of free-standing house I wouldn't mind living in, if it were in a quiet, safe neighbourhood.  I really loved Juanita's house.  I love that style, with the wrap-around porch.  I'm imagining it with a porch swing.  I always give in to all the housing clichés!!

 

I was actually wondering if they were going to cast someone as Juanita and I'm glad that she's in it.  She's an important part of this story.  Those manipulative leeches trying to guilt trip her into giving a statement by bringing God into the conversation??!!  I wanted to scream and stomp on their feet!!  Met too many of those people when I was at church.  One of the reasons why stopped going.

 

It's not unreasonable to expect the actors playing the parts of real people to resemble them.  The only thing that Beanie and Monica seem to have in common is that they both have dark hair. 

It is so wild to think those PI's were Miranda Lambert's parents!

[chocolatine]

I've had a crush on Jake Tapper for years but had no idea he'd gone on a date with Monica. I wonder whether she's ever regretted not pursuing things further with him.

Monica should have realized something was off when Linda suggested she'd look slimmer in peach than in navy. Every curvy woman knows that darker colors are more slimming.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Tex-Mex in DC. Bleh. The second worst Mexican food I ever ate was in DC. The very worst was in Ohio. AFAIC Mexican food outside of the southwest US is anathema. (Well, other than actually in Mexico.)

1 and 2 Corinthians are New Testament books. I guess Christian Ken Starr knew no one on his impeachment team was Jewish or Muslim? Or he didn't care.

Bill, it wasn't about how many women worked in your administration. It was that during JFK's era the mainstream press was caught up in whole Camelot thing and they refused to report on his philandering. Plus JFK's father would've gone after anyone who openly dared to undermine the carefully-crafted John & Jackie image. Clinton didn't have a rich, powerful daddy behind him and by the 90s the press had begun giving up pretense of working primarily in the public interest.

Wonder if Paula the puppet ever felt the hand Susan Carpenter-McMillan had lodged up her butt?

Wow, I'm surprised those lawyers didn't ask Paula exactly how many penises she'd seen and what the length of each of them was. They took slut-shaming to abysmal depths.

That moment in the car at the Christmas party was when Monica should've realized Linda was not her friend. Linda was practically licking her chops in excitement over how important she thought she was about to become at Monica's expense.

Semantics. A "sexual relationship" is more vague than "sexual relations." Too bad Monica didn't have someone she could trust parse that for her before she signed an affidavit which essentially amounted to perjury.

Linda had an unbelievably warped sense of "friendship." Monica was a meal ticket for her, not a friend. She was just trying to justify to others what she was doing by using Monica the way she did.

The only people I feel bad for here are Linda's kids. I wonder at what point did they realize how awful she was?

[CeeBeeGee]

15 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Bill, it wasn't about how many women worked in your administration. It was that during JFK's era the mainstream press was caught up in whole Camelot thing and they refused to report on his philandering. Plus JFK's father would've gone after anyone who openly dared to undermine the carefully-crafted John & Jackie image. Clinton didn't have a rich, powerful daddy behind him and by the 90s the press had begun giving up pretense of working primarily in the public interest.

 

Well, Joseph Kennedy Sr. had a stroke early on in Jack's administration and he was pretty much over as any kind of political power after that. Mainly Clinton was treated differently for a variety of reasons--Kennedy's era normalized womanizing to a much greater degree (as bad as Jack was, his father was much, much worse--I remember reading that the father had tried to hit on the teenage friend of one of his daughters), plus as you say the culture of the press had started to change.

[ifionlyknew]

10 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

 plus as you say the culture of the press had started to change.

Also it was the dawn of the internet.  News traveled faster and wider. Newsweek had the story and wouldn't publish it but Matt Drudge put it online. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

Well, Joseph Kennedy Sr. had a stroke early on in Jack's administration and he was pretty much over as any kind of political power after that.

Point taken.

Quote

Mainly Clinton was treated differently for a variety of reasons--Kennedy's era normalized womanizing to a much greater degree

Don't agree. I think Kennedy was a special case because of his looks and because of the "American royalty" aura around him and Jackie and their kids. Clinton was quite charismatic but I don't think many people were looking at him and Hillary as relationship goals. Clinton had to try harder than than JFK did and arguably got a lower quality of sidepiece. I mean, where was his Marilyn Monroe? (And this is where I smack myself upside the head for propping JFK's ability to cheat. Sigh.)

[chlban]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Point taken.

Don't agree. I think Kennedy was a special case because of his looks and because of the "American royalty" aura around him and Jackie and their kids. Clinton was quite charismatic but I don't think many people were looking at him and Hillary as relationship goals. Clinton had to try harder than than JFK did and arguably got a lower quality of sidepiece. I mean, where was his Marilyn Monroe? (And this is where I smack myself upside the head for propping JFK's ability to cheat. Sigh.)

Except that the press never reported the long time affairs of FDR and Eisenhower, 2 of Kennedys 3 immediate predecessors,  At that time the press did not seem to believe it was relevant. It really isn't, as long as it doesn't interfere with the job and does not push the POTUS to commit any illegal acts.  I think the first time a POTUS was openly questioned about an affair was Bush 41. He denied once and then steadfastly refused to discuss it at all. Most people have forgotten it was ever discussed.

[SarahPrtr]

On 10/8/2021 at 4:56 AM, SailorGirl said:

I realized that its the height and body style that aren't working for me, because I do think Beanie is really nailing Monica's giggly upbeat personality and flirty tone.

Monica is at least 2-3 inches taller than Beanie, and Beanie has a short torso with her breasts seemingly taking up her entire torso. Monica has a torso, Beanie doesn't.

The high-waisted skirts, while true to the time and Monica's style, only cut off Beanie's torso even more.

And that has nothing to do with size -- you can be a size 2 and have no torso! 

Yeah, body proportions play a big part in how a person looks.  For instance, I'm above average height (5 ft 6 in), so not short-short, but because I have half-body, half-legs proportion, without a frame of reference, I look stocky and a lot shorter, whereas my dancer friend who is 5ft 4 inches has 2/3-leg, 1/3-body proportions, so she looks a lot leaner and taller than me.  It's only when you see us next to each other that you realise that I'm actually taller.

 

Beanie is cute with lovely eyes and a heart-shaped face, but she's just not Monica.  I'll stop talking about the comparison between the two, because I've done it enough, but I think people would have watched the series even if ALL of the actors playing the characters were unknown, as long as they resembled the actual people.  I guess Beanie is more famous in the US, because I've never seen her in anything else.

[EssieMay]

On 10/7/2021 at 8:11 PM, deaja said:

 I find the lack of characterization of Monica to be the real issue here. 

Same. The portrayal is mostly vapid and whining with a soupçon of spunk (pun intended). The farewell speech at her going away party didn’t seem to match the character we are seeing but did match the real Monica who is and was bright, articulate, and likable. This character does not seem like she has the intelligence to become a White House intern. Portraying her as weak and ineffectual amps up the victimhood but it’s less interesting than the real person.  

[mostlylurking]

On 10/14/2021 at 6:07 AM, SarahPrtr said:

I guess Beanie is more famous in the US, because I've never seen her in anything else.

I’m in the US and never heard of her before.  I think she’s doing ok.  The fact that she doesn’t really resemble Monica doesn’t bother me, similar to how Cuba Gooding, Jr. not resembling OJ never bothered me either.  However…and forgive the shallowness…but her teeth.  Are they real??  They are very huge and not very white and the closeups are super distracting.  That distracts me more than anything else.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

Except that the press never reported the long time affairs of FDR and Eisenhower, 2 of Kennedys 3 immediate predecessors,  At that time the press did not seem to believe it was relevant.

No, I think it was because the MSM knew the general public didn't want to know, or at least not have it put in their faces on TV and in newspapers. Plus, that was when in movies and on TV shows married couples were still depicted as sleeping in separate beds. JFK and Jackie were probably the first POTUS and FLOTUS people imagined as actually having an active sex life with each other. Adultery wasn't going to be a part of that fantasy, at least not until well after JFK was dead.

[mostlylurking]

Watching this all I can think is how I cannot believe this young woman’s entire life was ruined by a consensual affair. Why??  I understand it was the lie that got Clinton impeached, not the actual affair. Everyone knew Clinton was a sleaze in his personal life.

Monica was a 20-something and made some bad decisions. I’ve been there and I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one.  I can so relate to Monica and watching her is so sad, as I can see so many things I did at that age were so similar to her.  It’s not right, and she does bare some blame absolutely.  But to have her entire life pretty much frozen in time because of her messiness as a 20-something??  That’s absurd. I thank god I didn’t meet the same fate. 

Not minimizing Clinton’s abuse of power regarding Monica at all, but at the end of the day it was consensual. I would think all the non-consensual stuff he was accused of would cause more of a stir and to me that’s all far more appalling.  Also, affairs are fucked up, and they can ruin relationships and it’s not right. But how come the man gets a pass??  He was the married one. He was the one with a family that he betrayed. It’s just infuriating.  He did so much more damage than she did. 

And I don’t care how annoying and juvenile Monica was. She trusted Linda as a friend. Linda didn’t turn on Monica because she was sick of hearing her inane conversations. She did it maliciously and in a desperate attempt to be relevant. I know she’s dead now but I don’t know how she ever lived with herself. Now she, I’m glad she became a national laughingstock. Nothing she did was noble.  I only feel badly for her children. 

Edited October 24, 2021 by mostlylurking

[kassa]

I've never seen Beanie in anything else, so while the lack of overt resemblance bothered me in the beginning, I'm enjoying her acting. It's HARD to play that earnest without being awful.

Did not bother me that officemates went to Linda's party. Either she's as known for these parties as she thinks, or they're just curious because most of us are curious about the obnoxious people in our lives. Wouldn't surprise me if a bunch of them "stopped by" on their way to do something else fun together. Make an appearance, see if it's what has been advertised, grab some great hors d'oeuvres, then go somewhere and have a fun time dishing together without her. 

As for why Linda would want them there -- to impress upon them how magnificent she is, of course. That would be her reason for doing ANYthing. People are just props for whatever story she's telling herself on a given day. Sure she hates these people, but she can't be sure they see her as some titan of Christmas entertaining if she doesn't show off for them. She would see it as solidifying her superiority to make them jealous.

[Armchair Critic]

I don't know if she did in real life, but I will say they have the Linda Tripp character dressing nicely.