S07.E16: P.O.W.

[Trini]

John Diggle (guest star David Ramsey) arrives in Central City with a weapon to help Barry stop the Godspeed War. Meanwhile, Allegra and Ultraviolet's (guest star Alexa Baraja Plante) new bond is put to the ultimate test, while Joe and Kristin Kramer (guest star Carmen Moore) are hunted by a former colleague of hers.

Marcus Stokes directed the episode written by Kristen Kim & Dan Fisk.

Airdate 7/6/2021

[Trini]

 

[Trini]

Barry and Diggle clip:

 

[scarynikki12]

My sweet baby Diggle who I miss so much is making the rounds.

Chester fanboying over Diggle is the most I’ve related to him.

The Godspeed remnant following Barry on the screen reminded me of Pac-Man.

I don’t know why Barry looked surprised that the Godspeeds know his name. He tells everyone with zero prompting.

The Godspeed they had locked up really likes the melodrama doesn’t he?

This is me being nitpicky but Barry, strictly speaking, Nora doesn’t exist yet so her future is wide open. Don’t stress about her dying in the future because she will if only due to old age.

Why do characters always become bad guys when they realize they’re immortal? I’d just travel around the world visiting libraries and trying new cuisine.

It’s Nora for real. And she brought her brother Bart. 

[shantown]

Dig! An Oliver mention! A Ray Palmer (and his nanites) mention! I suppose some other things happened too, but those were the highlights for me. I even liked the Godspeed war stuff a bit more because of it, or maybe because they finally actually got into what was going on with it.

And Nora and Bart at the end! I'm actually really looking forward to seeing the Flash fam with Grant, Candice, JPK, and Jordan Fisher all together, so hopefully it lives up to my own personal hype.

[KaveDweller]

Perhaps I am remembering wrong, but didn't Nora wipe herself out of existence to save the world a couple seasons ago. She did something heroic that changed the future so she wasn't born and disappeared into thin air? 

I know they just wanted the actress back, but it seems like a continuity error. A dream was one thing, but now she's really here

[bettername2come]

Chester fanboying over Diggle sparks joy. I especially liked him calling Diggle "the heart and soul of Team Arrow," although I think that argument could be made for all of Original Team Arrow. I also liked the mutual admiration between Cecile and Diggle. It was nice to see Diggle suited up again. I didn't remember a recent version of his suit having green on it, but I like it. I loved him and Cecile going on a mission together. I liked seeing her empath abilities revealing how intense those "headaches" are. Also, Cecile is like a quarter of John's size, and it's adorable. "Nanites, courtesy of Ray Palmer!" I love a good callback. Have Diggle and Barry hugged before? Because that was beautiful.

I wish they'd stop saying Iris is "under the weather." Like, the euphemism was overused. She's sick, she's not feeling well, she's not feeling up to it, she's resting. Say other things. I'm so glad she appeared. I was shocked. I didn't think we'd see her this ep. Did Deon actually call her "Mom?" If so, that's weird, although I did like that he was trying to protect her. I'm thinking Iris is pregnant with Nora and Bart and that's what's screwing with her ability to stay in her rightful place in the timeline. 

Can't say I ever cared about Esperanza but her going all Infinity Wars in Allegra's arms was sad. Shame they killed her off right after they made her voice stop being annoying.

You get fraternal twins! And you get fraternal twins! Everybody gets fraternal twins! I think the Bart actor is well-cast. Something about him reminds me of both Wally and Barry. Although he does seem younger than Nora. And I gotta say, I don't believe Barry would pass the name "Bartholomew" onto the next generation.

Spoilers for other Arrowverse show's promos: 

Spoiler

So Diggle's gotta go deal with his Green Lantern-ness right away, but I guess Lois Lane's gonna call him in to get a less-psychotic John's opinion on the Superman situation before he gets a chance. 

 

[cambridgeguy]

Barry - I can't go to 2049 because I'm needed here in case the Godspeeds do something.

Absolutely no one - can't you just come back seconds after you leave?  Later on Caitlin and Chester explicitly state they were expecting him back virtually instantaneously, so clearly he's supposed to have pinpoint accuracy.  It's also nice to see everyone appears to be A-OK with the potential for another Flashpoint.  I guess that makes a lot of them look like judgemental assholes in retrospect.

It's cool to see Nora and Bart but for the love of all that is holy I hope there isn't a big speech about the power of love coming.

At least with Esperanza dead we won't have random bursts of Spanish when she talks to Allegra.  It's not like it was saved for really emotional bits either, it really did seem like they flipped a coin every time they had to say something to each other.

Cool to see Diggle (and boy, that green item sure would have been handy here) but I had to laugh when he questioned Barry about letting the enemy into Star Labs.  Doesn't he know everyone is free to come and go as they please?  It's even worse than the old Arrow bunker.

[legaleagle53]

16 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

Perhaps I am remembering wrong, but didn't Nora wipe herself out of existence to save the world a couple seasons ago. She did something heroic that changed the future so she wasn't born and disappeared into thin air? 

I know they just wanted the actress back, but it seems like a continuity error. A dream was one thing, but now she's really here

A little thing called Crisis on Infinite Earths happened after we last saw Nora. That event not only merged some of the earths, it also reset the timeline and altered history in the process, which means that it also affected the future. In the new timeline, Nora is no longer an anomaly and never wiped out her own existence, so she and her brother Bart both exist on Earth-Prime in 2049.

[legaleagle53]

22 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

Did Deon actually call [Iris] "Mom?" If so, that's weird, although I did like that he was trying to protect her.

She and Barry believe that their combined energies created him and the other three forces, so she is his mother in that sense. That's why he called her "Mom."

[KaveDweller]

7 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

A little thing called Crisis on Infinite Earths happened after we last saw Nora. That event not only merged some of the earths, it also reset the timeline and altered history in the process, which means that it also affected the future. In the new timeline, Nora is no longer an anomaly and never wiped out her own existence, so she and her brother Bart both exist on Earth-Prime in 2049.

Thanks, I guess I missed that Crisis reset Nora's existence too.

Some might say that using Crisis to change things the writers don't like, or want to reset, or just plain don't remember is lazy writing.

[Primal Slayer]

The beginning of this episode was annoying. I couldnt take Chester fangirling out of Diggle to tell the audience who he is. It was just to much as they usually do when they try to do comedy nowadays. Same with Diggle having to go show to show just to give a pep talk and disappear. 

Other than that the 2nd half was definitely more enjoyable, there seemed to be some sort of stakes again? I have to assume Candiace had a COVID scare or something during these past 3 episodes. It is the only thing that makes sense why she is so absent and shows up for 5 seconds only for me to forget that she was part of this episode. 

I dont know why we had Crisis, had Nora disappear only for her to return like she's our Nora. This should be a new Nora. I liked her but I am already having flashbacks of them treating her as a grown child. Id like to see a slightly more mature Nora who doesnt use the baby voice. Bart...great introduction, still wish he wasnt their son but whatever. He seemed like bart to me. 

[shantown]

10 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

Some might say that using Crisis to change things the writers don't like, or want to reset, or just plain don't remember is lazy writing.

We call it a bug, they call it a feature :)

[Lantern7]

Ugh. Take away Diggle and the introduction of Bart (who wastes zero time breaking out the future-speak from Young Justice), and there's a lot I don't care about.

Godspeed? Didn't care. Calling the battles a "civil war"? Not caring. Dion? REALLY NOT CARING. I thought we were out of the "Personified Forces" game. Now I gotta look at stupid Dion and his stupid letterman jacket with the stupid implied turtle? Ugh.

Hi, Esperanza! Bye, Esperanza!! Too bad this isn't The Fast and the Furious. Those guys are all about family. But nope, you just went out and got yourself killed. Thanks for taking up story time in the past few episodes!

Kramer and Adam? Also not caring. I mean, we got Joe forced to survive in the woods as he and Kramer try not to get murdered, and that's pretty interesting. The rest? Eh.

This is the second Diggle Arrowverse episode, yes? Legends of Tomorrow didn't count, right? So, basically, he's dropping into the shows to lend a hand and endure ill-defined headaches.  On the bright side, he always brings the A-game, and we got to see Chester ruin his pants around him.

Only two episodes left in the season? I think we should just consider S7 a wash and focus on S8.

[thuganomics85]

Diggle!!  Definitely been enjoying him popping up again on the Arrowverse shows and I thought this was one of the stronger uses for him yet, due to the history with these particular characters (and actors), and while he was also saddled with an atypical pep talk, no one can quite do it like David Ramsey can!  Call it nostalgic, but it worked for me at least.  Hell, it even made me like Chester because I can totally believe that he would be a massive fan of his.  Of course, good old Diggle still has these mysterious headaches that he is dealing with, so hopefully he'll get that taken care of soon.  Well, at least after he zips over to Superman & Lois next!

For a second, I thought we were going to be getting another Iris-less episode, but she finally does pop up briefly in the Speed Force, because apparently her mysterious illness is quite bad, and Deon's been having to watch after her and prevent her from splintering off or something.  Still, I hope Candice Patton enjoyed her apparent extended vacation!

Whelp, bye already, Esperanza!  Her need for revenge does her in and she dies in Allegra's arms, while blaming her for abandoning her and not just going with her on her crazy murder spree.  Damn!  I'm not wild about Allegra, but that is cold as hell, Ultraviolet!

Joe and Kramer are still off in the woods doing their own thing and I struggle to care despite Jesse L. Martin and Carmen Moore's best efforts.

We are introduced to August Heart a.k.a. the original Godspeed.  Who... currently can't remember anything.  Should be fun!

Definitely a mistake to watch Fast & the Furious 9 today because between that and this show, I've heard the word "family" way, way too much now.

I swear, that reporter in the beginning seemed way too excited about all of the Godspeed chaos.  What the hell, lady?!

Maybe it's because I found this season to be such a bust, but I'm actually kind of excited for the Kid Flashes.  I always liked Jessica Parker Kennedy and it (fingers-crossed) seems like this version of Nora is going to be less impulsive and immature.  And while brief, Jordan Fisher seems like he will be a good fit for Bart.  At this point, I'm just hoping this season ends on a strong note with them and then some major course correction can happen (yeah, yeah, that's not likely but I want to believe!)

[SyncMaster]

I did not understand Barry's initial refusal to venture to 2049 based on his fear of causing a Flashpoint problem.  He caused the first Flashpoint because he traveled to the past and because he prevented his mother's death, which was a major happening in the original timeline.

How could traveling to the future cause an alteration in the current timeline?  Was he worried about causing problems from 2049 onwards?

[Trini]

So this episode was kind of weirdly composed to me. We're finally ramping up the Godspeed story and getting some answers and progress on that; but then there were also several other completely unrelated subplots going on that were taking up time, including one from a dead show. Then Cecile is again randomly inserted for mindreading and to replace Candice/Iris who could only do one scene for whatever reason.

But YAY! Nora and Bart!!

Let me get the irrelevant side plots out of the way:

Allegra/Esperanza -- So they were just going to kill her off anyway? Glad I never got invested. And now Allegra has even more guilt and less family, um, yay??

Joe/Kramer -- Okay we got a few answers, but I'm still not sure what the goal of this story is. Kramer finds out she's a metahuman and changes her meta-hating ways, I'm guessing. ... But how does this help or develop Joe? This should be as much his story as hers; and I have a feeling the only thing that will come of this is Joe getting his job back - which he never should have quit.

Diggle headaches -- Eh, I don't like the idea of turning him into a completely different type of superhero, but happy for those who want to see that - if they do that.

Besides that, I did like seeing Diggle again and his interactions with Barry and Chester. Would have been okay with him and Cecile, but it didn't feel like she belonged in the Godspeed plot. [insert 'Do you have daughter, Cecile?' rant here] I appreciate the show trying to feature Cecile/Nicolet more; but I feel she should be used more as an extension of Barry's family and not as another metahuman on Team Flash.

Of course there was going to be another pep talk, but it seemed out of character for everyone to be actually encouraging Barry to time travel. And then we see why - he wasn't going to succeed anyway.

So the Godspeed plot thickens. Did he time travel and lose his memory? Is he really from the future? How is he creating clones?? I hope we get answers. Nitpick: that line about dampeners not working on 'artificial' metahumans just doesn't line up with the rest of the show. They could have had another clone break that clone out of the cell instead.

Again it seems like they had to rearrange the plot to accommodate Iris/Candice's absence. Mysterious time shifting is a pretty good excuse, though it was still was disappointing that she was only in one scene. Wasn't expecting to see Deon again! I guess I'm glad they said the other Forces are 'busy', because you'd think they'd help out in a situation like this war.

Hope they let Barry & Iris touch again before the season ends. I was a little upset that Barry got to hug Nora and Diggle but not Iris.

Bart's entrance was perfect! I love him already. But I need him and Nora to still get the 'No Time Travel!' lecture, though. Why are they both here? Are they twins? Bart comes off as younger (but the actor is younger than JPK). Looking forward to Flash/West-Allen family shenanigans next week!

Edited July 7, 2021 by Trini

[cambridgeguy]

12 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

In the new timeline, Nora is no longer an anomaly and never wiped out her own existence, so she and her brother Bart both exist on Earth-Prime in 2049.

Oliver really was a big fan of everyone having two kids.  Diggle and Lyla?  You get to have your original and her replacement.  Lois and Clark?  Let's swap out your baby for twins.   Barry and Iris?  Double the speedsters means double the chances for time travel shenanigans.

[tennisgurl]

I guess Barry and Iris are going to need more diapers! Its possibly because the first half of the season was just so awful, but this back half is actually not too bad. Its not particularly good, but its more bland than infuriating the way the first half of the season was, and bringing Nora and new future son Bart into the show seems like a promising idea. I really like the guy playing Bart, he has that fun energy and like Jessica Parker Kennedy he definitely looks like he could be the child of Barry and Iris. I guess this Nora is sort of a new version of Nora, as the Nora we knew was erased from time, or I guess its also possible that the Nora we knew is back again in the future because of Crisis (our all purpose ret-con!) or something, but whatever timie whimy nonsense is happening, I am happy to get more WestAllen family time. Hopefully this Nora makes better life choices then the last one, be it because of experience or because this is a Nora that was raised by both Iris and Barry, who can remind her of the consequences of messing with timelines and could lead to her being more mature. 

This episode actually follows a similar format as a lot of episodes lately, with a decent main plot that is sadly kept from reaching its full potential because the show insists on cluttering everything up with useless subplots. I am still loving Diggle's tour of the franchise, and this was probably his best used appearance, as he actually does have a history with these characters that the writers can use. They even referenced his daughter being swapped with a son in the original Flashpoint before he got both kids after Crisis (Crisis is a big fan of siblings) and some of his history with Barry. Chester is still a LOT but I can totally see him gushing over Diggle, honestly I would do the exact same thing, and as annoyed as I am with the constant pep talks, Diggle can still make them work. The man is the absolute king of Arrowverse hope speeches, if he wasn't such a great superhero he would have a promising future as a motivational speaker. I do hope that at some point we can more check in with him to see how he's doing after everything, Crisis was a lot for him to deal with, losing his best friend and everything, instead of him just helping everyone else out. I really liked him teaming up with Cecile, its adorable how tiny she looks next to him. 

The Godspeed stuff is now a bit more interesting as we finally know what's going on, and connecting it to the future with Nora and Bart raises the stakes. Still not a great big villain for this arc, but god knows I'll take it over the speed force nonsense we got in the last Big Bad. I am glad that we got to see Iris for a bit, if only for one scene, even if it meant having to see Deon and see more of the stupid speed force crap again. The actor playing Deon is still pretty bad (although his awful dialogue does him no favors) and him calling Iris Mom makes me want to roll my eyes so hard they come out the back of my head. Especially in an episode involving Iris's actual children, not the weird magic comic forces possessing random adults with no connection to Barry and Iris whatsoever. Can we just be done with that story and get on with pretending it never happened? 

This season continues to refuse to cut any of these dull as dirt subplots, which really hurts all of their attempts at making an engaging main story. Every time I start to get interested in Godspeed or excited about the WestAllen babies, we have to cut back to Joe and Kramer wandering around in the woods or Allegra giving more stupid speeches to Esperanza about hope and love and it just kills any momentum the show is building. It sucks for Allegra that Esperanza died after everything she went through to help her because Esperanza is an idiot who runs around trying to attack supervillains when she just had surgery (well, "surgery") and without backup, especially as Esperanza took an extra few seconds before dying to really lay on that guilt trip, but I am mostly annoyed that we wasted so much time on her if it was going to end so anticlimactically. I have no idea what the point of this thing with Kramer and this asshole immortal guy is besides give Joe something to do, which they never would have needed to do if they had never had him randomly quit his job in the first place...which he did because of the woman he is now helping. The amount of nonsense in this subplot is off the damn charts. Neither of these plots are really awful, just pointless filler. 

[Lantern7]

I forgot to ask . . . could anyone make out the words when Diggle was having his episode?

[cambridgeguy]

19 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

I forgot to ask . . . could anyone make out the words when Diggle was having his episode?

"Worlds await" was repeated multiple times.

[rmontro]

18 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Chester fanboying over Diggle sparks joy. I especially liked him calling Diggle "the heart and soul of Team Arrow,

I actually thought that line was kind of cringe, but to each his own.

I was disappointed, because I was hoping Diggle's weapon was going to be a Green Lantern ring, not an Entropy Trap.

I always liked Nora, so I'm glad she's back on the show.   I was fairly indifferent about Bart Allen making an appearance, but looks like he could be interesting.

[Trini]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

... This episode actually follows a similar format as a lot of episodes lately, with a decent main plot that is sadly kept from reaching its full potential because the show insists on cluttering everything up with useless subplots....

This season continues to refuse to cut any of these dull as dirt subplots, which really hurts all of their attempts at making an engaging main story. <...> Neither of these plots are really awful, just pointless filler. 

Side plots aren't necessarily a bad thing; but at this point in the season when we're finally getting into the more important main arcs, they feel especially useless because they don't even connect to the main arcs or lead characters. It's not the time for filler.

I really wanted more time devoted to Barry & Iris and their family concerns, and Godspeed.

[Quark]

Great episode! Nice to see Nora (the daughter) again and meet Barry's son.

Feel bad for Allegra.

The Joe stuff was meh.

I can't say I care about seeing Diggle again. He was always rather meh to me.

[Cthulhudrew]

Esperanza was pretty vile up until the end, huh? Cursing Allegra for not choosing her and being happy to "die alone." Good riddance.

Why is Barry suddenly so afraid to run into the future and create another Flashpoint? This is new? Didn't he just run into the future (or past or something, I forget) during the insipid "Children of the Speedforce" saga? Not to mention all the times he's done it since Flashpoint. Seems pretty made up for drama.

The whole Iris plot came from out of nowhere. Was Candace Patton just off for a couple of weeks, and they decided they needed to shoehorn her into this ep for a few minutes?

It was good to see Diggle again, though it kind of sucks we'll have to wait another month to see the end of that story arc.

[miasth]

I did not expect to like Bart's suit from the photos I saw. I think it works though shiny as it it is. Nora has full purple lightning now which makes me wonder if they are twins and they split their parents lightning. Barry's prior speedforce rambling about more diapers points to the twin thing.

Poor Barry. He look shocked, happy, and a bit scared all at once. He ordered one kid and gets two who are speedsters. Him and Iris are in for fun times especially with Bart who may as well brought a sign saying he is a handful.

[Trini]

Bart's entrance was really amazing; so far Grant has been the only one able to do a proper slide in. I wonder how many takes this took?

Edited July 11, 2021 by Trini
grrr grammar