S02.E07: If You Could See Her Through My Eyes

[shapeshifter]

People keep referring to where Christie went as "a Casti club."  It isn't. Christie did NOT make a scene in front of Castithans as some have said upthread.  She was in an underground CosPlay club.  She was talking in front of humans.  And not just any humans.  IF I am correct about how these clubs are viewed in Defiance, it is like two gay guys in the 1950's having an argument in a secret gay club....NOBODY is going to find out about the fight because nobody who witnessed it would admit to having been there....

That's how I saw it too, @MDKNIGHT . Thanks for posting it in a clear way. Except Alak was there, so he knows. And with all the Spy V. Spy backstabbing that goes on in their little frontier town--especially among Castis, I would guess not everything that happens in the club stays in the club.

[RealityGal]

Datak's having clawed his way up from the lower castes is unlikely to predispose him more kindly towards Deirdre. The people who had to fight their way to the top are the people most invested in preserving the status quo of their newfound privilege.

 

Generally, I would agree, but its not like datak had moved his way up into a legitimate business, he worked his way up into being a crimelord.  I think there is a difference.  This isn't exactly the Kennedy's, this is more Pablo Escobar IMO.  There isn't even much in the way of subterfuge in hiding what his business is, its not like he is laundering money into legitimate ventures, as far as I could tell, so he is perfectly happy being a barely concealed crime lord.  

 

People keep referring to where Christie went as "a Casti club."  It isn't. Christie did NOT make a scene in front of Castithans as some have said upthread.  She was in an underground CosPlay club.  She was talking in front of humans.  And not just any humans.  IF I am correct about how these clubs are viewed in Defiance, it is like two gay guys in the 1950's having an argument in a secret gay club....NOBODY is going to find out about the fight because nobody who witnessed it would admit to having been there. 

 

If the writers are consistant with the Castithans being dogmatic patriarchal traditionalists then no way is Diedre marriage material and a kid of hers with Alak would be treated as a bastard in unenlightened times.  Datak and Stamah put up with Alak marrying a lowly human because among humans she was wealthy and the best catch available.  Yes now she isn't heir to the mines so she might be in trouble if that was all she had going for her but she is to bare the first Tar heir.  So at least for now she's secure but even after that she is still an official wife and traditionally would get SOME consideration.  It is only because Stahma is a murderer that she would be in any danger after the baby is born.  Still Christie could be 6 ft under and Diedre would still \have ZERO chance of becoming Mrs Tar.  Datak would never accept a whore into the family because part of being Castithans Is being hypocritical  AND  NO WAY can the son marry a whore who has been with the father.  I'm sure it even specifically says so in the sacred scrolls

 

For one, I don't think it being a "cos play" club makes a huge difference.  And furthermore, I certainly think it can, and probably will get back to Stahma because she seems to have her finger on everything.  People who are wanting to indulge one fantasy, may also have some degree of self hate which may require using drugs, while Stahma may no longer have all the adreno in town, she may have access to whatever people want in a club like that.  And I would think Stahma would figure that if she can find out, other people may have seen.  Unless Casti's are somehow kept out of the Janus club, I would think a few of them might want to go there just to see whats going on.  If there was a club full of people trying to replicate me, I would be interested in seeing what that was all about.  If I were a Casti dude, I might see it as an easy way to score.

 

 But, thats secondary to the fact that its just another instance in whats becoming a pattern for Christie of doing whatever the hell she wants because she is unhappy and emotional, and will do things impulsively instead of thinking them through.  And constantly upping the ante by doing things in more public settings.  I mean, how was she supposed to gain a greater understanding of Casti culture if she was simply dressing Casti?  To me, its like saying I understand my dog because I dressed up like a furry.  And understanding my dog would be much simpler than understanding the cultural complexities of an alien race.  Even if she was dressing Casti in a club full of Casti's it would be insulting, but to think you're going to better understand an entire culture because you just dressed up like them is even worse.  But I digress, Christie doing what she wants, and disrespecting Alak in public is just the last in the line of things she has done on impulse, and its getting more and more bold, and public.  First, they had their disagreement in the house where Alak told her that she doesn't understand because she is human, now she is doing things in front of others, how much longer until they are fighting in the streets, and tongues are clucking because that is not okay in Casti society.  Stahma gets her way by smiling in public and pulling strings in private, Christie doesn't get that, she just does things when she feels like doing them.  This makes her dangerous.

 

I actually think bearing the Tarr baby puts a huge target on Christie's back, especially as she acts more impulsively.  In unenlightened times, a woman of a certain social set realized that she was probably going to have to live by certain rules, one of which was that she wasn't going to run off with her child.  Christie, doing things impulsively, doesn't seem to understand that there may be certain rules that she will be expected to live by.  Especially in raising the child the way Datak and Stahma will likely want to raise him.  I imagine there would be things about Casti child rearing that she wouldn't understand, and wouldn't like, especially since she has already shown she doesn't like all of the Casti rules and is willing to push back.  The more she fights, the more I think it will look to Stahma and Datak that their best bet is to just get rid of her.

 

As for Deidre, I think both Stahma and Datak can see that Alak may not be super interested in a Casti wife.  Additionally, they should both realize that they live in a town thats a bit of a brave new world.  The former mayor runs the whorehouse, her sister opened the place, so it doesn't seem like being a hooker is as much of a social stigma as it is now.  If the Casti's represent an old school society, it reminds me of the story of "Mrs. Woodward", who in the 1950's was a "burlesque dancer" who married into one of the richest and oldest new york society families.  She actually had a "relationship" with the father, who then encouraged the son to ask her out.  They eventually married, so its not like even in an old school, patriarchal society that it doesn't happen.  A woman like Deidre who is willing to do anything and reinvent herself to fit in might be a better fit.  Christie seems to think she can become Stahma by cooking some meals and dressing up.  I think someone like Deidre would have the respect for Stahma to want to really study her ways and would put in the work, and deal with the initial dismay.

 

I don't think "official wife" would get even a rice grain worth of consideration when Christie starts making noise about not liking the child being raised Casti.  I don't think Stahma would have any problem getting rid of Christie if she in any way threatened Stahma's plan for her grandchild.

[AngelKitty]

The Christie/Alak relationship, which was a boring Romeo-Juliet set piece last season, has grown into a fascinatingly complex clusterfck.

 

Yes, it has.  And it could have turned into a boring teen love triangle or quadrangle if she had met some young stud instead of a creepy old guy.

[Mabinogia]

I think someone like Deidre would have the respect for Stahma to want to really study her ways and would put in the work, and deal with the initial dismay

 

And I think someone like Deidre wouldn't be content to be second fiddle to Stahma, would learn all she could and then go after the bigger fish, whether that means sleeping her way up to Datak or convincing Alak to overthrow his parents, letting Deidre into the family is not going to end well for the Tarrs. And I think someone like Datak, who did work his way up would understand that. He would see himself and Deidre and know that HE would not be content until he was #1 so she probably won't either. Painting her to be a poor little orphan just looking for a family doesn't ring true to me. If she just wanted a family she could go after an unmarried target. She wants to be a Tarr very specifically which means she's after power and money and will do anything to get it. I wouldn't trust her half as much as some silly human who just wants to fit in.

[BungalowSummer]

 

Still Christie could be 6 ft under and Diedre would still \have ZERO chance of becoming Mrs Tar.

 

Agreed. Dierdre is actually even more of a fool than Christie, who is mostly naive.

 

The scene that's been showing up in some of the previews -- of a woman falling from the arch -- tells me that Treasure Doll is going to be taking that trip down that Alak threatened her with. But I think it will be Christie who dumps Dierdre off the Arch. Another preview scene in the Arch studio shows Christie walloping Dierdre with what looks like a frying pan.

[AlliMo]

The fact that Datak has worked his way up to what's essentially a high caste crime lord makes respectability all the more important to him, not less. To Castis, their liro is everything.

[MDKNIGHT]

 

whether that means sleeping her way up to Datak or convincing Alak to overthrow his parents,

See if IIRC she HAS slept with Datak...as a prostitute and there is NO chance Datak is trading in Stahmah for Diedre. Also Datak is the type to think you don't buy the cow if you can have the milk for free or even for reasonable rates.  And really what father even the ones that are not sociopathic patriarchal hypocritical crime lords wants their son to marry a prostitute that they themselves have had? 

 

I don't know who to bet on killing Diedre.  At this point Christie is probably even money.

[sjohnson]

One of them is the best candidate for the body falling from the arch. Doesn't that have to happen at least once a season?

[shapeshifter]

I don't know who to bet on killing Diedre.  At this point Christie is probably even money.

If so, I wonder if it will be done in a manner that shows she has learned from Stahma's cunning methods, or if it will just get her sent to the badlands prison like Datak, or maybe just piss off Alak enough for him to kill her.

[HeySandyStrange]

I'm not sure the show is ready and willing to go quite so dark as having Alak kill his pregnant wife. That would be straight up Game of Thrones territory here and I'm not sure Defiance is the cable show to pull that off.  Would be a hell of a shocking twist of events though. Hell, Christie killing Deidre would be a  shock but it would give Christie something to do over then grind on creepy Casti crossdresser, so I could get behind that.

[jhlipton]

Sold into slavery as a child and then molded into a sex slave as she became older

 

Funny – this somewhat fits Deidre as well as Jalina.

 

I did not catch that "running with scissors" was a social metaphor, rather than just a "poked out his eyes" excuse.

But I think it was. For one thing, it makes a lot more sense that way.

 

That’s what I got. “Running with scissors” is somewhat of an idiom for doing something foolhardy and dangerous. In this case, both usages fit.

 

Yeah, Christie is drinking, which is no bueno, at least for a human child, so thats a little surprising, and that would be something I imagine Stahma may want to try to put a stop to.

 

It could be that she’s drinking a “Casti” beverage that won’t harm her child.

 

t doesn't seem like being a hooker is as much of a social stigma as it is now.

 

This is something a lot of shows, movies and books have trouble with. There’s the “Hey, we’re enlightened – prostitution is just a job; why should there be any social stigma?” But everyone in the society looks down on the “whores” who are “just doing a job”. They really can’t have it both ways.

One thing I liked about Kenya – she made sure that no-one disrespected her employees. For her, the “night porters” were valued employees and she would do anything to make sure they were treated as such. If the “violent man” wants someone to beat, Kendra would find one of her girls into that sort of thing, and she would play the “please don’t beat me!” role. No way would he have had any contact with a porter not into that.

[GaT]

I'm not sure the show is ready and willing to go quite so dark as having Alak kill his pregnant wife. That would be straight up Game of Thrones territory here and I'm not sure Defiance is the cable show to pull that off.  Would be a hell of a shocking twist of events though. Hell, Christie killing Deidre would be a  shock but it would give Christie something to do over then grind on creepy Casti crossdresser, so I could get behind that.

They could have him kill her accidentally though. That wouldn't turn him into a hard core murderer, but still have the drama. 

[Emily Thrace]

Something interesting about the parallel between Jalena and Deirdre was that Jalena was a loved member of the Tarr family while Deirdre is just an outcast. Which is interesting because really Deirdre "profession" is a lot more socailly acceptable than Jalena enslavement. Considering the shows films in Canada I suspect the writers have heard some of the debates about prostitution that have gone on over the past few months(The supreme court declared all our old prostitution laws invalid and we had to create new ones) I wonder if that hasn't helped shape this story. Stories like Deirdre's are why I don't think full legalization is a good idea and happy hooker stories like Kenya's always bug me.   I like that the show is actively trying to show all sides of the issue and not just push an agenda(That was always Firefly's bigest flaw IMO). They managed to have Datak get called out on his using but still showed his genuine greif. Its a balance and the show is delivering it well this year.

[RealityGal]

I think someone like Deidre would have the respect for Stahma to want to really study her ways and would put in the work, and deal with the initial dismay

 

And I think someone like Deidre wouldn't be content to be second fiddle to Stahma, would learn all she could and then go after the bigger fish, whether that means sleeping her way up to Datak or convincing Alak to overthrow his parents, letting Deidre into the family is not going to end well for the Tarrs. And I think someone like Datak, who did work his way up would understand that. He would see himself and Deidre and know that HE would not be content until he was #1 so she probably won't either. Painting her to be a poor little orphan just looking for a family doesn't ring true to me. If she just wanted a family she could go after an unmarried target. She wants to be a Tarr very specifically which means she's after power and money and will do anything to get it. I wouldn't trust her half as much as some silly human who just wants to fit in.

 

But the Tarr's have to know that neither of them are going to live forever.  And if I read them both correctly, they want to continue their legacy and growth of their name even when they are gone.  They both think Alak is weak, and I don't think Stahma has any great respect or love for Christie, and certainly Datak doesn't.  I think with time they may both learn to see her as a loose cannon, because that is how she is acting.  So the question for them may be who is the right woman to continue on their traditions and grow the family name/fortune even when they are gone.  Who may be a woman who can be quiet and demure in public, but can be a force to be reckoned with in private.  A loose cannon who could, at any moment, take her baby and run?  A woman ruled by emotion and impulse?  Or someone who walks into their family with her eyes wide open, knowing full well that they are a criminal family, and being perfectly fine with that.  Someone who will work under cover to get what she wants.  Or someone who responds to not getting her way by stomping, running off, and causing a scene?

 

She wants to be a princess, there aren't too many opportunities for princess in Defiance.  She wants a prince, there aren't too many of those in Defiance.  She wants a family she never had.  There aren't too many opportunities for a girl to find a prince and a family and to be a princess in the town of Defiance.  And she will happily take a flawed prince because its much more than she has ever had.

 

I think someone who wants money and power is much easier to control than someone who wants love, affection, and demands to fit in without doing any work.  You can give a person money and power, or those are things they can work to get.  You may not be able to give a person love if you don't have it in you to give it, you may not be able to give affection that you don't have to give.  You can't make people like you and make you a part of their culture just because you really want them to.  I think its much easier to change your pocketbook than to change how you feel.  Christie doesn't just want to fit in, she wants everything her way and if she doesn't get things her way, she isn't going to work to change them, she is going to stomp off, cause a scene and act on impulse.  That impulse can't be controlled, and that impulse to simply act when she doesn't get her way is what may one day cause her to try to run off with the grandchild.

 

The fact that Datak has worked his way up to what's essentially a high caste crime lord makes respectability all the more important to him, not less. To Castis, their liro is everything.

And I would say that if Deidre was content to remain a hooker, and simply wanted to be a hooker marrying his son, I think he would take issue.  But I think she is actively in the process of attempting to transform herself into someone new.  She seems to be trying to shed her hooker skin (which is less stigmatized) to reveal her new, more respectable DJ skin.  Now she is in the process of trying to develop respectable wife/princess skin.  Women before her have done it, even in western society....people have worked their way up from a low status position to a higher status position - sometimes through sex and conniving.

Edited August 4, 2014 by RealityGal

[MDKNIGHT]

people have worked their way up from a low status position to a higher status position - sometimes through sex and conniving

 

Yes but not with the blessing of murderous sociopaths who are also major hypocrits.  People keep saying stuff like Datak or Stahma will see something admiral by Diedre wanting to better herself because Datak worked his way up.  You fail to remember that these people are narcissists.  They don't admire other people.  They aren't going to be charmed by the plucky hooker.  IF they were soft hearted gullible people then yes they might feel a little empathy etc but they aren't. Datak didn't even have qualms about maiming his own son,  What empathy is he going to show Diedre? Also the last thing Stahma wants is  a hooker as wife to Alak.  What the hell is in it for Stahma?  They only accepted non Castithan Christie because they were planning to murder her family and then get her mines.  She is now pregnant but they might get rid of her after the baby is born BUT I bet her dad gets the mines back before that becomes an issue.  Diedre has her body which a lot of people have had and which Alak has had without marriage, so what is in it for the Tar family to take her in?  Nothing.  In a weird way she is almost as clueless as Christie about what she is dealing with.  If Diedre is lucky and I mean Lotto Level of lucky she might be a mistress and I didn't get the impression Alak thinks all that much of her.  But I can just see Stahma's expression if he tried to bring her home. 

Edited August 4, 2014 by MDKNIGHT

[Shanna Marie]

That was the only thing I didn't like. I suppose an alien may have been on a destroyed Earth long enough to have seen a squirrel (though I would guess they are rare to extinct by now), but to understand the slang meaning of "squirrelly?"

She could have been using the term idiomatically without knowing the origin of the term. If she's heard people using "squirrelly" to describe odd, eccentric behavior, then she may have just been using it that way, not in the sense of knowing that it refers to the odd, eccentric behavior of a bushy-tailed earth rodent. There are a lot of idioms used in regular speech whose origins have been mostly forgotten (for instance "wrapped around his little finger" has its origins in falconry), even by native speakers, so it wouldn't be at all odd for her to use the idiom without ever having observed a squirrel's behavior.

[Sonny]

I almost lost hope after the first episode, but this season improved a lot.

I enjoyed this episode, the lack of Amanda/Pottinger and Tommy/Berlin drama. I was glad they focused on the Tars and Irisa.

The bonding between Rafe and Datak was funnier than I would have expected. I guess this is now the redeeming arc for Datak, after his atrocities in previous episodes. He was one of the least interesting characters so far for me. The whole run for mayor story didn't entice me much, and even this season he was more a stereotypical villain for the sake of doing evil things, than an interesting character with layers and motives beyond getting more power and feeding his ego. I still don't think he is a good person, but it's good to see some other side of him. It makes him and his family much more enjoyable to watch.

Rafe, too, was rather boring until this season. I'm now curious to see how they will work out their problems, hopefully together.

Stahma might be my most favourite character at the moment. She finally is in a position to be more open about her feelings and wishes. Her story is probably my second favourite after Irisa's atm.

 

Most characters got much more interesting.

Like Christie. She might do stupid things, but what people seem to forget is that she is still a teenager, and human teenagers are emotional and impulsive. She has to please both her father and her new familie, who didn't get along so well until recently. She's married young, is now pregnant, and probably still hasn't really figured out who she really is and wants to be. Her brothers are gone, her father lost the mines and now his house; her father in law was in prison for murder and got cast out of his home by his wife ( who is possibly Christie's new role model), hurt Alak and does many other despicable things. She is caught powerless in the middle of it all and I can understand why she wants to get away from it, tries to find her own identity, also to understand the casti culture better, empower herself like Stahma did.

 

Same with Alak. Caught between the lines, still young, doing stupid things, trying to figure out who he really is. I'm still convinced he wouldn't want to really become like his father. And again we got some revenge sex...

The whole DJ-girl thing... well it's a stupid plot for drama's sake. I doubt the Tars would want another human girl attached to them. Even if Deidre had some chance of getting Alak there would still be Rafe, and he wouldn't want his daughter replaced. I wonder how the new bromance would influence Datak. Rafe might have lost the mines, but their kids are married. They seem to get along at the moment. Datak lost his crew to Stahma, has no real backing. Pleasing Rafe helps a lot to rebuild his good graces with Stahma. With all this focus on family this episode I think he would back Christie. Also as others have already said he likely wouldn't want somebody threatening his own position by worming their way up. I guess it might also depend on his temper... Lots of stupid drama.

 

Well, at least we found out about this cool underground club and got a crazy, cosplaying, highranking E-rep. His talk with Christie was great, though they are still creepy together. Defiance needed more crazy fun.

 

I wonder what the show has with beginning and ending an episode with sex. ... and music montages. That's something they don't need imo.

 

I'm glad Nolan found out about Irisa. Finally less drama from that.

Hopefully the show continues with the increased backstory and worldbuilding. This season already profited a lot from the richer world, though they could have explained much more. There were many unused oportunities. At least that's how it seems to me.

 

Sorry, it got a bit long.

[maczero]

I guess she may be more popular amongst the miners and the people she worked with in the cafe.  But the miners may resent Rafe for not doing anything against the mine takeover by the Earth Republic, and the people in the cafe haven't seen her in a while.

I'm under the impression that most of the miners are in the E-reps pocket.  IIRC they're getting paid significantly more than they were when the worked for Rafe. 

 

As for the Deirdre vs. Christie argument, Deirdre brings nothing to table to offer the Tarrs.  Christie may no longer be a mine heiress but she's still Rafe's daughter and it appears Datak wants an alliance with Rafe.  And although she and Alak are having problems right now, Christie's still his wife and mother of his unborn child.  Deirdre doesn't have money, influence, connections or even the affection of the Tarrs.

Edited August 4, 2014 by maczero

[MDKNIGHT]

I think the miners are happy with the extra money but there is a down side to being occupied and if/when the E-reps curtail their freedom to an unacceptable level there is going to be thought of revolution.  I'm sure Datak and Rafe aren't the only two people who want the E-rep out and when that ball gets rolling Rafe will probably again be a big honcho and by extension Christie will again have strategic value to the Tarrs.  It isn't that I don't think Stahma wouldn't kill Christie if there were a real advantage to it but as the chips are right now it just doesn't pay her to do so, AND there is NO reason for her to back Diedre. 

 

I just thought of something.  I'm not sure about the ethnicity of the actors but Rafe definately looks to be Native American which would mean Christie is at least part Native American which makes her going to a club and dressing up as another group and inadvertently causing offense (becaue let's face it she didn't MEAN to piss off or insult Alak, it was all about how groovy Castis are) is actually very ironic on the writer's part because there has been contraversy for a long time about things like the Atlanta Braves' mascot and other times whites dress up as Native Americans.  I wonder if any of tht factored into the writer's thinking. 

[maczero]

I just thought of something.  I'm not sure about the ethnicity of the actors but Rafe definately looks to be Native American which would mean Christie is at least part Native American which makes her going to a club and dressing up as another group and inadvertently causing offense (becaue let's face it she didn't MEAN to piss off or insult Alak, it was all about how groovy Castis are) is actually very ironic on the writer's part because there has been contraversy for a long time about things like the Atlanta Braves' mascot and other times whites dress up as Native Americans.  I wonder if any of tht factored into the writer's thinking. 

 

Actually, I think that relates to a running joke with the Tarrs and the McCauleys.  In season one, Datak says something derogatory to Rafe in regard to pink skin.  Rafe responds "does my skin look pink to you".  Then in this latest ep, Alak says to Christie how would she feel if he painted his skin pink.  Christie responds "I'm not pink".  It's got me thinking that Castis think that caucasians are the default appearance for humans.  Either that or they're color blind.

Edited August 5, 2014 by maczero

[BungalowSummer]

it appears Datak wants an alliance with Rafe.

Ultimately, Datak wants to regain what he had: his wife, his criminal empire and the mayor's office or, at least, his position at the top of the Defiance power structure.

He proposed an alliance with Rafe because Rafe is still a leader among the miners, even if he's lost control of the mines -- for now. So Rafe has men, but no weapons. Datak has weapons but no men.

Personally, I love the dynamic between them, but their alliance is one of convenience while they can help each other toward the shared goal of getting the E-Rep out of Defiance. That won't be easy, and they're potentially at odds over who runs the town, who gets the mines, Christie and the grandchild, Alak's crime career, and Stahma. And that doesn't factor in the Kaziri, which neither of them seem to know about yet.

[Bruinsfan]

This show feels more like Farscape every episode (a good thing). The humor, the buddyness, the singing-out-of-nowhere. I like it.

Don't forget the squicky unwilling eye surgery stuff!

[roctavia]

The Janus club isn't just for people who want to dress up like Castis it's all the different Votans... and possibly there are even some Casti there dressed as other races... in the background you can see some people dressed as Indogens.  

 

It is an underground club, and surely there would be some Casti who have a huge problem with it, but not necessarily all of them. Datak is very invested in maintaining the Casti way... but not all Casti are.

[CletusMusashi]

I don't see transracialism becoming accepted after what just happened. Not only are these people considered to be weird freaks, and not only does the cosplay tend to be interpreted as mockery, but now they also have the stigma of being associated with a string of human-on-Votan murders that was committed for the express purpose of providing them with popular accesories. I don't think saying "Oh, I'm sorry. I thought the doctor was only looting your people's cadavers" is really going to calm anybody down much.

[MDKNIGHT]

Good point CletusMuashi. 

 

BTW it may be speciest of me but the way the characters in the club (well only Mercado and Christie since we haven't heard from others) talk I think there is something wierd about thier dress up.  Like they both seem so DESPERATE about it.  Kind of like the difference between dressing up as a vampire for Halloween and getting so wrapped up in your vampire persona that it affects your real life.  Mercado seemed to worship the Castis despite the fact that we haven't seen all that much to admire.  He seemed to be overly impressed with their apparent theft of the Irathian's planet.  It is sort of like worhiping the Nazis for have successfully taken Poland and France.  It doesn't seem like good clean fun.  It comes across like at the very least a kink and at worst a tragic obsession.