S12.E09: First Blood

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

4 hours ago, mertensia said:

Total unexpected isolation is how I would break Dean if I had to.  He's not like, say, Gil Grissom from CSI who would do very well in isolation. So, yeah, I can see that his being unexpectedly in isolation-realizing this was possibly forever- and just going "can't cope".

Except he was ready to take on total sudden unexpected isolation in s10 when he learned about the Darkness and that he would be sent somewhere alone so that he never hurt anyone ever again and still be the lock and key. And that he would not put that burden on anyone else. It was only after he was given the directive to kill Sam and Sam put the pictures of Mary in front of him that Dean chose to kill Death, because he couldn't kill Sam. Not because he couldn't bear to be alone.  And no I don't think it was the Mark that let Dean be that brave.

Would his soul be awake/conscious in the Empty?  (Did they ever explain that?  Souls are aware in heaven, hell and purgatory...)  Because, if so,  by agreeing to let Billie kill him, he was (I assume?) ready to go into the Empty immediately...or was part of the deal that whoever it was would go to Heaven instead?  I don't think they specified that, did they?  So, in theory, Dean was agreeing to go from human isolation (with the faint hope that eventually they might get out) to heaven's isolation chamber for eternity.  Even if it was "expected," that's still eternity, not just a few more decades, so Dean couldn't have been *that* upset by isolation.  (I also can't remember...was Billie going to put them in the Empty whenever they died, no matter when or how? So that was always waiting for them?  If so, at least Cas took that threat away from them.)   

[ahrtee]

One additional thought that just occurred to me, about the idea that isolation is worse than hell:

Remember that Crowley's new, improved hell was endless waiting on lines.  So apparently, to Show, eternal boredom is worse than eternal torture.  At least they're consistent.  

[catrox14]

And another thing!

When I think about the part of Dean's Hell time, that was him torturing who knows how many souls for 10 years  because he couldn't take another moment after 30 years of torture wherein Alastair would rebuild him just to do it all over again,  it makes Dean saying Hell wasn't worse than being in solitary confinement for a period of time EVEN more absurd. WTF, show?

What does that communicate about Dean?  Did the writers just completely forget that part of Dean's Hell time?? The part that made him more guilt ridden than he already was? That part that he was so afraid would come back again if he had to torture Alastair to find out who was killing the angels just a few years ago? The guilt that he said he could never make right or that he lived with it in his head forever?

IF Dabb, was trying to make a statement about black sites, and isolation breaking a person, that was not demonstrated well.  Dean was shown was making the best of the shitty food and not minding it.  He was counting off the days by using a screw from the bed to scratch the days in the wall. I actually thought maybe Dean was going to go for a Shawshank Redemption thing where he would just keep digging until he got to an outside wall, luring the guard over and making a break for it.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

(I also can't remember...was Billie going to put them in the Empty whenever they died, no matter when or how? So that was always waiting for them?  If so, at least Cas took that threat away from them.)

Yes Billie was going to put them in the Empty when they died, regardless That was the threat since her arrival. The show never had her back down from the Empty threat (hee) I presume it was still in force.

Of course when Dean went off to save the world via death by soul bomb he would have just ceased to exist so even the Empty wouldn't have been a thing IMO.

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IF Dabb, was trying to make a statement about black sites, and isolation breaking a person, that was not demonstrated well.

I'm not sure Dabb was really saying anything in particular about black sites, but reaching really hard for a reason why Dean and/or Sam might make a deal like they did. He reached waaaay too far, if you ask me.

Edited January 27, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Commando Cody]

I'm glad they killed Billie. I never liked her. 

I was a little troubled at the end when The Winchesters were probed about the "loose ends".  It should have raised some suspicion for them. I'm not so sure I liked Mary listening to what they had to say at the end.  Then again, I'm anti-BMoL. 

[catrox14]

It just occurred to me that when Dean said "I've been to Hell and this is worse" that if Mary was just learning about his Hell time in that moment shouldn't she have been more like "WTF, Dean, what do you mean you've been to Hell? Why were you in Hell??" or did she learn about that HUGE thing before that moment and we weren't shown? 

So....I'm gonna need some follow up on that, Dabb et al. Fat chance.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Watched online at lunch cause I couldn't wait til I got home!  First thoughts:

I REALLY liked the "we save the world" line from Sam.  

Liked Wally too.  You go Wally.  I'd like to see him back.  Still processing/thinking on the rest...

ETA: There's just something about Sam in a jumpsuit...he looks good.  Take that as you will.  ;)

Edited January 27, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
Sam in a jumpsuit does things for me.

[catrox14]

Some reviews of the episode in the media.
 

Quote

 

Review of 12.09 in TV Guide.  Not enthusiastic about the episode.

http://www.tvguide.com/news/supernatural-recap-first-blood/?ftag=TVG_Twitter

 

Review from EW. More enthusiastic but don't agree with the reviewer that Mary was right to blame Cas. It wasn't really his fault that Dean and Sam didn't fucking leave the scene in 12.08

http://www.tvguide.com/news/supernatural-recap-first-blood/?ftag=TVG_Twitter

MovieTVTechGeeks loved the episode.

  https://movietvtechgeeks.com/supernatural-back-250th-episode-1209-first-blood/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=SocialWarfare

 

Edited January 27, 2017 by catrox14

[Wynne88]

One other small thing I noticed was when they actually put Sam and Dean into their cells, they weren't chained, nobody was (visibly) holding a gun on them, and at one point Sam's guard even had his back turned to Sam while he unlocked the door.  And yet they both meekly walked into their cells anyway.  Huh.

Despite the plot holes, though, I still enjoyed it.  I liked the fact that for once, the previews didn't spoil their deaths.  I truly didn't see that coming, and couldn't figure out how they had managed it since obviously they weren't going to stay dead.  I noticed Sam's comment about it being about six hours til midnight while they were running through the woods, and his statement to Dean that they needed to talk about 'this', which Dean naturally postponed, so the writers laid a bit of a trail to the eventual confession of the deal they made without beating me over the head with hints.

And mostly I just like to see both Sam and Dean portrayed as smart, competent fighters.  Loved Dean's line about them not being the ones who were trapped.

[ZennyKenny]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Man, the more I think about it, the more I say "fuck you" show for making Dean be the one who says being alone is worse than Hell. That really pisses me off.

I agree that this was a really lazy excuse to get them to want to get out of prison so badly that they'd be willing to sacrifice one of them with a deal just to do it. No way around it, that's just bad writing. However, I want to add:

Dean: "I've been to Hell, and this was worse."
Mary: "Wait, what??? You've been to HELL? The literal Hell? When did this happen? And why?"

A script in an alternate Universe.

[Ria]

Has Cas lost all powers with heaven closed off?  I remember when Cas was a real angel. When he could get inside Dean's dreams to talk to him. Anna (?) even did it when she couldn't find Dean because he was warded. When he could hear Dean's prayers. Cas used to be smart, powerful and resourceful. Now he's freaking useless, weak and incompetent. . I've had more than enough of the heroes having to get help from the bad guys, whether Crowley, Rowena or the BMOL. So many wonderful characters like Ellen, Bobby, Jo killed off and Cas reduced to this all do the brothers can keep teaming up with evil. Blech. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

16 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I honestly think I need to go back to watching on the 2nd night when I can watch with no commercials.  I think my appreciation of the show will benefit greatly.

How do you stream without commercials?  I don't watch live either, but even streaming from the CW site or app (it's not on Hulu anymore this season...) I have commercial breaks.  Not as bad as live tv, but they are still there.  And I completely agree that they break the momentum of the show.

16 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Loved the episode, as a whole. Sam and Dean being BAMF,<snip>

Also, I don't accept that the Winchesters had no other cards to play.

I first thought it was a spell they did.  And I was thinking "good for them"! (Dean did say he'd read a book or two.)  Upon further reflection, I think it would have been even more BAMF if it had been a spell they used on their own to get out rather than having made a deal with Billie.

16 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I agree with this.  While I'm sure it was no picnic being locked in there by themselves, I can't imagine it's worse than actual hell, especially with as much guilt as Dean has over actually torturing people, himself.  I just don't see them being on a par.

I missed the very opening of the episode, so did they explain why the dark-haired agent was so hell bent on killing the Winchesters?  Was he just carrying out the president's orders, or was there something else going on? It seemed personal to him.

On the isolation thing - the only thing I can use to wank that away is that with Dean's known guilt complex and only his own thoughts to keep him company, it was tearing him apart.  At least under physical, (or meta-physical, or quasi-physical or how ever it works in hell) - torture, the pain would keep your mind off your own guilt I guess.  

As for the other agent - no explanation which I can recall

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Also they 100% ripped off using a typewriter to communicate with someone else from Fringe. 

No explanation for why Dean wasn't praying to Cas at least ONCE.

That typewriter was very old-school spy technology.  Can't believe with all the fantastic weapons and spells HMSS has at its disposal, they still use WWII tech basically.  No Maxwell Smart shoe phone?

Neither of them praying to Cas is a huge plot hole.  I think the show should have at least shown them attempting it - and then it failed for "reasons".  Cas didn't hear, etc.  Not trying at all and jumping straight to Billie is incredibly weird and disturbing for both of them.  

[Jediknight]

2 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

One other small thing I noticed was when they actually put Sam and Dean into their cells, they weren't chained, nobody was (visibly) holding a gun on them, and at one point Sam's guard even had his back turned to Sam while he unlocked the door.  And yet they both meekly walked into their cells anyway.  Huh.

They knew it would be worthless.  They knew they were in a heavily guarded black site, trying to escape through brute force is a one way ticket to death.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

That typewriter was very old-school spy technology.

I'm talking about the magical way it was typing back to Mick. Fringe used one that communicated with an alternate universe. Who is Mick communicating with in that manner?

I was thinking about Cas and why he's not using his powers. Could that egg thing have done something to Cas' powers? Like he was hit with some of the "radiation" like radioactive fallout that is turning him human?

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

They knew it would be worthless.  They knew they were in a heavily guarded black site, trying to escape through brute force is a one way ticket to death.

So heavily guarded they could just walk out the front door and stand in "parking lot" chatting to their angel on the phone. Those were the worst soldiers ever!

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

So heavily guarded they could just walk out the front door and stand in "parking lot" chatting to their angel on the phone. Those were the worst soldiers ever!

LOL I'm putting it down to hubris that they didn't think those denim wrapped nightmares would ever try to escape.

Questions:

--What happened to the boys guns? I'm more than a little worried about Dean's beloved gun? Did the BMoL round them up for the boys?

--Where is Baby? Wouldn't they have confiscated her and put her on lockdown? They wouldn't have taken her to the black site and they wouldn't have left her at the motel. So where is she?

ETA: I'm pretty sure Cas didn't get her because he would have just driven her to find Dean instead of calling Mary. Even if Dean had the keys, Cas could have figured out how to hot wire Baby, no? What happened to Cas' ride?

Edited January 27, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Random thought: if they were in there a minimum of 6 weeks, shouldn't Dean's hair have been longer?  I know they showed him using an electric razor, but if he buzzed his entire head, it should have been even shorter.  Ditto for Sam.  

[HunterHunted]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Silly Demented One, you know logic and reason do not belong here. ;)

Don't even get me started on reaper lore. I guess they could've already been on earth when the angels fell, but I still prefer to think of them as a species unto themselves. So, that's my explanation for why Billie can teleport, reapers aren't angels. You only have to ignore one episode to make that work. But,, hey, I'm pretty sure the show ignored at least 10 episodes to make this one not work, so... . ;)

What cosmic consequences could come from killing Billie? They've already reaped DEATH, set leviathans loose from Purgatory, caused all of the angels to fall from heaven, and almost unmade all of creation. What's more cosmic than Amara almost unmaking all of existence. Shut up Billie. Shut up show.

If the British MOL had just managed to come to Dean and Sam like normal people, I'm sure Sam and Dean would have worked with them. The boys know how close they've come to the apocalypse time after time. They work with Crowley and Rowen a because they need help.

[AwesomO4000]

I think I need a rewatch. I am now starting to wonder if Dean's "This was worse" in reference to the isolation vs hell was Deanspeak for "I'm going to tell them something they might believe that'll be a short explanation so that I don't have to tell them the whole and/or entire reason that I made that decision." Because for me, that (the misdirection) would be in character for Dean. Then the question would be: well then what was Dean's motivation or entire motivation? And I have a couple of potential answers for that one...

• I think that in reality it is mainly just what Dean said: At least there would be one of them to keep going. And they know about Lucifer's spawn. Even if the gestation period is normal - and there is no guarantee that will be the case - they would have 9 to 9 1/2 months tops before Satan's spawn (literally) would be born into the world. God gave Dean and Sam the job of looking after the world (thanks, Dad), and if it all went to hell on Dean's watch while he was locked away, I think Dean wouldn't want the guilt of that. Nor would he want Castiel to have the guilt of that (since Cas blames himself for Lucifer getting out). Sam either, since Sam might blame himself also for going to the cage to begin with.
• Dean may not have wanted Sam to be left in isolation, wondering what it would do to him. Does Dean know about Sam's time in the cage and if isolation was a part of it? (we, the viewers don't know Sam's entire cage story). When and if they got out, would Sam be in any shape to do the job?
• And speaking of the job - both Sam and Dean know they have a crisis pending. Should they wait for as long as possible for a rescue that might never come? Or if it hasn't come in six weeks, assume the odds aren't great, cut their losses now, and have actual time to try to stop and/or prepare for the coming Satan's spawn debacle? There is no one else who knows except Castiel, and I don't know if Dean would want all of that on Castiel - who didn't even share with the BMoL "Well, we kind of won (to quote Giles from Buffy), but oh yeah even though Lucifer's gone - his spawn is out there somewhere gestating." Yeah sure you beat Lucifer, Cas... well except for the potentially even bigger problem Lucifer just happened to leave behind, but minor detail, I guess.

It might be a little bit of all of that. However, I can see Dean not wanting to say something like "Well, since Lucifer's spawn is out there, and one of us is going to have to stop it, we couldn't wait around in a cell forever for you guys to find us, so after it looked like rescue wasn't coming, we took matters into our own hands." Dean would rather insinuate that isolation was worse than hell than make his mom or Cas either worry and/or feel badly.

Of  course Dean entirely expected it would be him getting sacrificed, but at least Sam would be there to take on Satan's spawn, so Dean would at least feel okay about that. (And Sam likely expected it would be him going and Dean would beat Satan's spawn.)

I would compare the potential situation to Sam telling the teenage manwitch in "Swap Meat" that Sam would feel lucky to have his life. Even Dean mostly bought it until Sam said basically "Hell no, I lied out of my ass. That sucked. Why would I want that life?" once they were out of the kid's earshot. Except we wouldn't be getting that here from Dean, because they're all in the same car going home.

That's my new theory anyway. So I'm going to rewatch and see if I can detect how sincerely Dean is giving that explanation. Or if it just seems too casual and flip... since both of them seemed rather fine after they got out - to me anyway. It will be interesting to see if this is addressed in any way in the future once Sam and Dean get together on their own to talk.

And of course none of that would explain why neither of them prayed to Castiel, but that's another kettle of fish...

Edited January 27, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Morrigan2575]

14 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think I need a rewatch. I am now starting to wonder if Dean's "This was worse" in reference to the isolation vs hell was Deanspeak for "I'm going to tell them something they might believe that'll be a short explanation so that I don't have to tell them the whole and/or entire reason that I made that decision."

I wondered if he did it more for Sam then himself? Going by the visuals shown, Sam seemed to have a more difficult time in captivity then Dean.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[FlickChick]

19 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not gonna say anything about Misha's credit change as being a harbinger of doom....

Well, I am. It's the very first thing that came to my mind when he thrust that angel blade into Billie. And I have a bad feeling about this too...

I thought the episode was better than many we've seen this season (reason: too much Luci), but I agree with those who said that this detention certainly wasn't worse than hell for Dean. C'mon Dabb, really??? On the plus side for the Js, they certainly didn't have to study their lines very long. LOL :)

[Ninamags]

i choose to believe that Mary was listening to the Brit so that she can report back to the boys what they might be up to.

 

??

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So heavily guarded they could just walk out the front door and stand in "parking lot" chatting to their angel on the phone. Those were the worst soldiers ever!

Ha, yes, I thought the same thing about this supposed "black site". I can name about twenty characters from other shows who could have broken out of that thing easy. peasy without any silly and dumb spell. Heck, the Count of Monte Christo used roughly the same method of escaping. Only he didn`t need a spell, the prison he broke out of was a hell of a lot tougher than this little spa and he hold on for 13-14 years instead of six short weeks. The more I think about it, the more I feel the episode made the brothers look like real whimps. Only because the soldiers looked even weaker did they manage their escape. 

Quote

So I'm going to rewatch and see if I can detect how sincerely Dean is giving that explanation. Or if it just seems too casual and flip... since both of them seemed rather fine after they got out - to me anyway. It will be interesting to see if this is addressed in any way in the future once Sam and Dean get together on their own to talk.

Other than maybe seeing it in the previouslies, I wouldn`t count on it ever being referenced. Certainly not in any way refering to trauma. 

That said, I`m 100 % convinced the show was meant to play that stupid line about it being worse than hell as completely straight. I saw no subterfuge from Dean whatsoever. And like I said, belittling Dean`s hell has been ongoing. I have no doubt Dabb thinks nothing of it and is convinced this little prison stint was just depicted as the worst thing ever. 

Quote

Well, I am. It's the very first thing that came to my mind when he thrust that angel blade into Billie. And I have a bad feeling about this too...

I`m not too worried. The Js are basically working half the hours they did when the show started. That "slack" is picked up by guest stars but also by recurring characters who are given their own storylines. This very episode was for a lot of time the Cas and Mary hour. For that reason alone, I highly doubt Cas is going anywhere.  

Quote

If the British MOL had just managed to come to Dean and Sam like normal people, I'm sure Sam and Dean would have worked with them. 

I just love that the hunter in the beginning who had show-speak-markers for "dumb hick" actually did the smart thing while Mary is becoming stupidly ensnared by them. Geez, they can`t go five minutes without pontificating about the sociopathic need to eliminate witnesses and bystanders left and right. Mary was right there when they went "you left witnesses". That attitude summarizes them, is she truly that stupid? Wow, move over Barry, your CW crown has been taken.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Commando Cody]

12 minutes ago, Ninamags said:

i choose to believe that Mary was listening to the Brit so that she can report back to the boys what they might be up to.

 

??

I hope so. However, I don't give the writers of this show that much credit. 

[SueB]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think I need a rewatch. I am now starting to wonder if Dean's "This was worse" in reference to the isolation vs hell was Deanspeak for "I'm going to tell them something they might believe that'll be a short explanation so that I don't have to tell them the whole and/or entire reason that I made that decision." Because for me, that (the misdirection) would be in character for Dean. Then the question would be: well then what was Dean's motivation or entire motivation? And I have a couple of potential answers for that one...

• I think that in reality it is mainly just what Dean said: At least there would be one of them to keep going. And they know about Lucifer's spawn. Even if the gestation period is normal - and there is no guarantee that will be the case - they would have 9 to 9 1/2 months tops before Satan's spawn (literally) would be born into the world. God gave Dean and Sam the job of looking after the world (thanks, Dad), and if it all went to hell on Dean's watch while he was locked away, I think Dean wouldn't want the guilt of that. Nor would he want Castiel to have the guilt of that (since Cas blames himself for Lucifer getting out). Sam either, since Sam might blame himself also for going to the cage to begin with.
• Dean may not have wanted Sam to be left in isolation, wondering what it would do to him. Does Dean know about Sam's time in the cage and if isolation was a part of it? (we, the viewers don't know Sam's entire cage story). When and if they got out, would Sam be in any shape to do the job?
• And speaking of the job - both Sam and Dean know they have a crisis pending. Should they wait for as long as possible for a rescue that might never come? Or if it hasn't come in six weeks, assume the odds aren't great, cut their losses now, and have actual time to try to stop and/or prepare for the coming Satan's spawn debacle? There is no one else who knows except Castiel, and I don't know if Dean would want all of that on Castiel - who didn't even share with the BMoL "Well, we kind of won (to quote Giles from Buffy), but oh yeah even though Lucifer's gone - his spawn is out there somewhere gestating." Yeah sure you beat Lucifer, Cas... well except for the potentially even bigger problem Lucifer just happened to leave behind, but minor detail, I guess.

It might be a little bit of all of that. However, I can see Dean not wanting to say something like "Well, since Lucifer's spawn is out there, and one of us is going to have to stop it, we couldn't wait around in a cell forever for you guys to find us, so after it looked like rescue wasn't coming, we took matters into our own hands." Dean would rather insinuate that isolation was worse than hell than make his mom or Cas either worry and/or feel badly.

Of  course Dean entirely expected it would be him getting sacrificed, but at least Sam would be there to take on Satan's spawn, so Dean would at least feel okay about that. (And Sam likely expected it would be him going and Dean would beat Satan's spawn.)

I would compare the potential situation to Sam telling the teenage manwitch in "Swap Meat" that Sam would feel lucky to have his life. Even Dean mostly bought it until Sam said basically "Hell no, I lied out of my ass. That sucked. Why would I want that life?" once they were out of the kid's earshot. Except we wouldn't be getting that here from Dean, because they're all in the same car going home.

That's my new theory anyway. So I'm going to rewatch and see if I can detect how sincerely Dean is giving that explanation. Or if it just seems too casual and flip... since both of them seemed rather fine after they got out - to me anyway. It will be interesting to see if this is addressed in any way in the future once Sam and Dean get together on their own to talk.

And of course none of that would explain why neither of them prayed to Castiel, but that's another kettle of fish...

 

I was JUST coming here to post a similar theory!  I'm not 100% sure what drove the timing, except that I think it was enough time to presume they had to get out themselves.  6 weeks feels about right for that.  And yes, I think each thought they would be the one sacrificed so the other could go on.  And part of it may have been for Mary's sake, not just to stop the Nephilim.  In either case, I'm going to agree with everyone here -- Sam and Dean don't break that easy.  That "it was worse than hell" was for Mary's sake.  

Now, will we ever get follow-up?  IDK.  I think fans who are pissed off about how giving up after 6 weeks might eventually come to this conclusion as a potential solution.  Maybe Dabb thought that as well?  I do know that there are MANY times I feel like Supernatural writes in layers.  Some for the more casual fan, some for the more observant.  I'm not sure casual fans will fuss over the "hell was worse" comment.  

So, I really hope at the upcoming convention, someone asks "who would it have been?"  

Regarding Reaper skills.  Here's what I recall:
- Tessa said Dean saw her in her true form.  That makes her more like a floating vapor verses Angel with wings. They could still move about after the Angels Fell. 
- Although not explicitly stated, I think it's clear that they are a form of Angel.  We've had the pepto-bismal spewing anti-hurt angels & Cupids so there is precedent.
- Reapers could find Sam and Dean, the stuff on their ribs didn't stop them.  
- They can be bound and controlled (Faith).  Have we ever seen an Angel controlled?
- Apparently they can be called by name and will in fact show up if they want to.

Praying to Cas:
- They had to presume that their cells were monitored both audio and visual.  It seems like the only time their prayers were "heard" was when they were allowed.  So perhaps neither spoke out loud, at all, because they didn't want what they said to Cas to be overheard.  They didn't want any insight into who they were provided.  Supporting data:  Dean said ONE word, "Billie." Besides telling Cas that they are alive, which Cas probably picked up on the longing ANYWAY, they could tell him nothing about where they were.

Use of GPS versus map for location:
- They showed Sam holding up the phone.  In that relative valley where they were in, obscura of the GPS signal is likely.  It's why the driver had a map.  GPS only works in canyons when there are 3 within Line of Sight.  With those mountains and ridges, that may have made the coverage spotty. The map told them Colorado, and a 14K (like Longs Peak) would be evident to a survivalist like Sam.  

In sum:
- I agree with AwesomeO - "worse than hell" was a cover for Mary.  Sam and Dean escaped because they had work to do and each planned for the other to survive.
- They didn't pray to Cas because they were being monitored and they really couldn't say much more than "we're alive in a Black Ops site".  What would Cas or Mary do with that info?
- Reapers were always able to zap about (due to vapor-like true substance) after the Angels Fell.
- GPS does poorly under canyon-like conditions, thats why the driver had a map. NYC residents can relate. 

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

hat "it was worse than hell" was for Mary's sake.  

how would bringing up Hell to Mary when AFAIK she didn't know about it, make it a better thing for Mary? I don't get that rationale

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

- They didn't pray to Cas because they were being monitored and they really couldn't say much more than "we're alive in a Black Ops site".  What would Cas or Mary do with that info?

I appreciate that you look for ways to make gaping plotloes and sloppy writing work . I can't see how a silent prayer or just saying Cas would send them off after Cas. They didn't know who he was because he wiped their memories. They thought Mary was dead so they weren't even looking for her IIRC. They had less info on the boys than BMoL. Sam and Dean praying wouldn't raise an eyebrow because they already thought they were religious zealots. What happened to Cas going into Dean's dreams to communicate with him? That is all invisible to the outside because it happens when Dean sleeps.

[SueB]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

how would bringing up Hell to Mary when AFAIK she didn't know about it, make it a better thing for Mary? I don't get that rationale

Well, Mary said "and God's SISTER brought me back".  Plus she knew he time traveled. So he had to have told her SOME highlights.  He could have given her a Dean-class summary for Supernatural (ala Marie in Fanfiction) that explains why God's sister saved her.  However she didn't know about Angels until she met Cas.  So, I'm going to guess he mentioned the Apocalypse and that God has intervened in Sam and Dean's life a few times.  After she found out about Cas, I could see the following (MADE UP) conversation:

HEADCANON
Mary: How did you meet Cas?
Dean: It's a long story but remember that Apocalypse that we helped prevent?  Well, it started when I was in Hell and the Angels sent Cas to go get me out to help stop it.  
Mary: You were in Hell?
Dean: Yeah. Sam was killed as part of Yellow eyes' plan. I made a crossroads deal to save Sam.
Mary at this point would give a look
Dean: Yeah, making deals runs in the family.  Anyway, the Angels had me rescued after I went to Hell because of some prophecy about the apocalypse or something. They wanted our help.
Mary: So the Angels are good guys?  
Dean: No. They're dicks.  But Cas isn't.  He's saved our lives more times than I can remember.
Mary: It's a lot to absorb. 

Again, I just MADE THAT UP.  But it's plausible IMO.  
ETA: And he skips who broke the first seal, Ruby, demon-blood drinking, Sam killing Lucifer, etc...

Edited January 28, 2017 by SueB

[7kstar]

I liked part of this one.  For me it is kinda of like reading a fanfiction story.  You enjoy it and move on.  It isn't necessarily connected to the next story.  It's clear they didn't think about certain lines and how week that would sound.  Everything was done so they could bring in the next moment. 

For some reason they NEED Cas broken beyond repair, so that he is willing to do what ever it takes to save the family. 

They needed the BMoL to find someone to trust them and work with them. 

Spoiler

Of course it will cause Mary to get in trouble and need to be rescued...a guess.

Could it have been better, sure the whole reason they got caught in the first place is beyond stupid.  Them giving up is beyond stupid.  But if I just watch without using any brain cells I might find it all fascinating.  :)

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Praying to Cas:
- They had to presume that their cells were monitored both audio and visual.  It seems like the only time their prayers were "heard" was when they were allowed.  So perhaps neither spoke out loud, at all, because they didn't want what they said to Cas to be overheard.  They didn't want any insight into who they were provided.  Supporting data:  Dean said ONE word, "Billie." Besides telling Cas that they are alive, which Cas probably picked up on the longing ANYWAY, they could tell him nothing about where they were.

If they were being monitored, wouldn't have the monitorees have noticed them talking and making that deal with Billie too? It was clearly shown both of them cut their hands to make that bargain, even if Billie wasn't visible, I'd think that would be suspicious behavior I'd go check out. And, wouldn't someone have noticed them dead before the guy with the food did? 

Seriously, worst soldiers ever!!! 

Edited January 28, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

My headcanon is that the "Chow time" soldier liked them and wouldn't rat out there contraband. I have no real reason for it.

[ahrtee]

42 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'm not 100% sure what drove the timing, except that I think it was enough time to presume they had to get out themselves.  6 weeks feels about right for that.  And yes, I think each thought they would be the one sacrificed so the other could go on.  

 

I can buy the 6-week timeline as a "time's up" thing (not a giving-up one.)  

I think each was willing to be sacrificed rather than being left behind; but honestly, wouldn't you think after all this time that Sam would understand that there's *no way* Dean would willingly let Sam die instead of him?  So...maybe they would fake rock/paper/scissors.  But I think it's more likely one or the other would have done an end run around it, like Sam going to Chuck behind Dean's back and agreeing to take on the Mark.   But I also think Dean might just challenge him, as in: "It was my plan.  I'm the one who thought of it, and who made the deal.  I'm ready to die.  You have to honor my decision," as a callback to Dean not honoring Sam's choice with Gadreel.  

49 minutes ago, SueB said:

 I do know that there are MANY times I feel like Supernatural writes in layers.  Some for the more casual fan, some for the more observant.  I'm not sure casual fans will fuss over the "hell was worse" comment.  

I'm afraid maybe you're giving the writers too much credit. I don't think they're that subtle.  They write the story they had in mind, and even after all this time, are constantly surprised when the more observant ones complain about bad writing and canon errors.  I think a lot of long-time fans have begun hand-waving rather than stressing over these glaring errors and retcons, so maybe that's what they ultimately wanted.

 

52 minutes ago, SueB said:

Reapers could find Sam and Dean, the stuff on their ribs didn't stop them.  
- They can be bound and controlled (Faith).  Have we ever seen an Angel controlled?
- Apparently they can be called by name and will in fact show up if they want to.

There are a lot of inconsistencies in the "lore." (hah!)  Reapers couldn't find Cas when he was human (which, why?  Wouldn't they be able to find any mortals?  ... but maybe only when they're about to die.)  IIRC, April was a reaper but was working with angels, and she just happened to find Cas when everyone was looking for him.  I may be wrong about that.  I haven't rewatched that ep--or most of that whole season-- in a long time.

Angels were being controlled by Naomi, but that was another angel, so I don't know if that counts.  And she was using brainwashing rather than spells, so that's different, too.  It doesn't mean they can't be controlled, I guess.

Angels have names.  Reapers...didn't in the beginning.  (Dean, recognizing Tessa in s.4, called her by that name and she said, "that's one of my names.")  Dean summoned Tessa in Appointment in Samarra but both of them seemed surprised that she showed up.  I don't think he called her specifically, just A reaper.    

 

58 minutes ago, SueB said:

Praying to Cas:
- They had to presume that their cells were monitored both audio and visual.  It seems like the only time their prayers were "heard" was when they were allowed.  So perhaps neither spoke out loud, at all, because they didn't want what they said to Cas to be overheard.  They didn't want any insight into who they were provided.  Supporting data:  Dean said ONE word, "Billie." Besides telling Cas that they are alive, which Cas probably picked up on the longing ANYWAY, they could tell him nothing about where they were.

IA that they wouldn't be able to tell Cas anything about where they were being held; but I don't think it was ever necessary to pray out loud in order to be heard.  As others have pointed out, I think all angels could communicate very well through sleep, and Cas said that he could feel Claire's longing even if she didn't express it.  So even if Dean had nothing to help Cas find them, at the very least, he could have reassured him (and Mary) that they were physically well, and being kept in government super secret lockdown.  That would have at least given them someplace to start looking, even if they didn't get anywhere. And, if they could hold conversations with Cas while asleep, they wouldn't be isolated and therefore wouldn't be so frantic to get out that they would risk dealing with Billie.  I assume that's why they didn't want to even bring up that possibility.  

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Use of GPS versus map for location:
- They showed Sam holding up the phone.  In that relative valley where they were in, obscura of the GPS signal is likely.  It's why the driver had a map.  GPS only works in canyons when there are 3 within Line of Sight.  With those mountains and ridges, that may have made the coverage spotty. The map told them Colorado, and a 14K (like Longs Peak) would be evident to a survivalist like Sam.

I'll buy no GPS signal, especially in valleys.  I can't even get a good cell signal in my house, just because it's in a slight dip.  But I doubt they hand out maps to anyone going to a super-secret facility that no one is supposed to know about.  They blindfolded the lab tech when he had to come in, but gave directions to the caterer?  (I don't remember what was printed on the truck but it didn't seem top secret.)  

But I'm still calling bull on Sam telling one peak from another by map or even sight.  I can see Pikes Peak from my living room window, but from this distance it looks a lot less impressive than the 10,000-foot peak to the left, because the smaller one is actually closer.  Besides, there are many, many 14ers in Rocky Mountain National Park (not Forest, as they said); so unless the map had a notation, "you are here," he couldn't tell easily.  

 And honestly, I don't remember anyone ever calling Sam (or Dean) a survivalist. Survivors, yes; but that's a whole different story.  Remember, Sam always  hated Dad's training (and as far as I can tell, didn't keep up with the parts he didn't like after he left) so all his survival skills would be based on childhood memories and what he picked up/honed in the last 12 years, which didn't include much wilderness training.   (If he really did have good survivalist skills, he wouldn't have made such rookie tracking mistakes...)

Having said all that, I actually agree with almost all your summary (except the praying to Cas part.)  And I know I'd be much happier if I could be one of the "casual" fans who can hand-wave bad writing/plot holes.  But no.  *sigh*

And since Catrox added a comment while I was spending so much time trying to write this, I'll put in my two cents on that:

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My headcanon is that the "Chow time" soldier liked them and wouldn't rat out there contraband. I have no real reason for it.

I though the "chow time" guy didn't look in at all.  It would kind of defeat their isolation if they had contact with anyone, even eye contact.  He just put the food in the slot and saw that it disappeared.  When it *didn't* disappear is when he bent down to look into the slot and saw Sam on the floor.   (I'm guessing that they put toiletries through the holes on a regular basis, too, to avoid talking to the boys.  Wouldn't want them to run out of TP!)

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I can buy the 6-week timeline as a "time's up" thing (not a giving-up one.)  

I think each was willing to be sacrificed rather than being left behind; but honestly, wouldn't you think after all this time that Sam would understand that there's *no way* Dean would willingly let Sam die instead of him?  So...maybe they would fake rock/paper/scissors.  But I think it's more likely one or the other would have done an end run around it, like Sam going to Chuck behind Dean's back and agreeing to take on the Mark.   But I also think Dean might just challenge him, as in: "It was my plan.  I'm the one who thought of it, and who made the deal.  I'm ready to die.  You have to honor my decision," as a callback to Dean not honoring Sam's choice with Gadreel.  

I'm afraid maybe you're giving the writers too much credit. I don't think they're that subtle.  They write the story they had in mind, and even after all this time, are constantly surprised when the more observant ones complain about bad writing and canon errors.  I think a lot of long-time fans have begun hand-waving rather than stressing over these glaring errors and retcons, so maybe that's what they ultimately wanted.

 

There are a lot of inconsistencies in the "lore." (hah!)  Reapers couldn't find Cas when he was human (which, why?  Wouldn't they be able to find any mortals?  ... but maybe only when they're about to die.)  IIRC, April was a reaper but was working with angels, and she just happened to find Cas when everyone was looking for him.  I may be wrong about that.  I haven't rewatched that ep--or most of that whole season-- in a long time.

Angels were being controlled by Naomi, but that was another angel, so I don't know if that counts.  And she was using brainwashing rather than spells, so that's different, too.  It doesn't mean they can't be controlled, I guess.

Angels have names.  Reapers...didn't in the beginning.  (Dean, recognizing Tessa in s.4, called her by that name and she said, "that's one of my names.")  Dean summoned Tessa in Appointment in Samarra but both of them seemed surprised that she showed up.  I don't think he called her specifically, just A reaper.    

 

IA that they wouldn't be able to tell Cas anything about where they were being held; but I don't think it was ever necessary to pray out loud in order to be heard.  As others have pointed out, I think all angels could communicate very well through sleep, and Cas said that he could feel Claire's longing even if she didn't express it.  So even if Dean had nothing to help Cas find them, at the very least, he could have reassured him (and Mary) that they were physically well, and being kept in government super secret lockdown.  That would have at least given them someplace to start looking, even if they didn't get anywhere. And, if they could hold conversations with Cas while asleep, they wouldn't be isolated and therefore wouldn't be so frantic to get out that they would risk dealing with Billie.  I assume that's why they didn't want to even bring up that possibility.  

I'll buy no GPS signal, especially in valleys.  I can't even get a good cell signal in my house, just because it's in a slight dip.  But I doubt they hand out maps to anyone going to a super-secret facility that no one is supposed to know about.  They blindfolded the lab tech when he had to come in, but gave directions to the caterer?  (I don't remember what was printed on the truck but it didn't seem top secret.)  

But I'm still calling bull on Sam telling one peak from another by map or even sight.  I can see Pikes Peak from my living room window, but from this distance it looks a lot less impressive than the 10,000-foot peak to the left, because the smaller one is actually closer.  Besides, there are many, many 14ers in Rocky Mountain National Park (not Forest, as they said); so unless the map had a notation, "you are here," he couldn't tell easily.  

 And honestly, I don't remember anyone ever calling Sam (or Dean) a survivalist. Survivors, yes; but that's a whole different story.  Remember, Sam always  hated Dad's training (and as far as I can tell, didn't keep up with the parts he didn't like after he left) so all his survival skills would be based on childhood memories and what he picked up/honed in the last 12 years, which didn't include much wilderness training.   (If he really did have good survivalist skills, he wouldn't have made such rookie tracking mistakes...)

Having said all that, I actually agree with almost all your summary (except the praying to Cas part.)  And I know I'd be much happier if I could be one of the "casual" fans who can hand-wave bad writing/plot holes.  But no.  *sigh*

And since Catrox added a comment while I was spending so much time trying to write this, I'll put in my two cents on that:

I though the "chow time" guy didn't look in at all.  It would kind of defeat their isolation if they had contact with anyone, even eye contact.  He just put the food in the slot and saw that it disappeared.  When it *didn't* disappear is when he bent down to look into the slot and saw Sam on the floor.   (I'm guessing that they put toiletries through the holes on a regular basis, too, to avoid talking to the boys.  Wouldn't want them to run out of TP!)

Oh I agree that he didn't look at them. I think they would just put the meal and whatever other basics are needed in the slot and say nothing. The total isolation went out the window, though, every time he yelled "Chow time!". That's why I think he liked them because he was more or less saying hello. Why and how did Dean get a razor? Head canon is Corp. Chow Time.

[Boopsahoy]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

Apparently they can be called by name and will in fact show up if they want to.

That's what I thought and then I remembered in Raw Meat Dean had to kill himself to talk to Billie. If it was as easy as saying "Billie" why did he have to down those pills?

Edited January 28, 2017 by Boopsahoy
typos

[catrox14]

Not only that but Billie said she coulcn't kill them. Only reap them, so how exactly did they die?

[ZennyKenny]

I'm confused as to how praying to Cas would have done anything. He's wingless, so he can't teleport to them/teleport them out. They have those sigil thingies inside their bodies to prevent angels from being able to detect where they are, and it's not like they knew where they were to offer instructions.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ZennyKenny said:

I'm confused as to how praying to Cas would have done anything. He's wingless, so he can't teleport to them/teleport them out. They have those sigil thingies inside their bodies to prevent angels from being able to detect where they are, and it's not like they knew where they were to offer instructions.

I look at it as Dean can at least tell Cas he and Sam are alive. And that the feds took them someplace off book. And as it turned out Mr. Ketch knew about the off book sites. Dean  could have communicated about this older dude that interrogated them and maybe the BMoL could have researched that.

[Binns]

I liked this for the most part. Love seeing the boys being so competent and remembering skills likely drilled into them by their father. I figured they were drawing the soldiers into a trap and the cabin was an opportunity for them. Didn't mind the BMoL and though I'm not a fan of "kill all the witnesses" I do appreciate that we won't have boys on the run again. 

My gripe is with the plan to get out. It doesn't make sense that Dean would be that worked up about isolation. Hell, John probably locked those boys in coffins and forced them to survive long periods of isolation. Plus, lol at ANYTHING being worse than Hell for either boy. I was hoping they got out with a cool BMoL trick that we didn't see...Mr. Ketch was showing off his toys...couldn't there have been a spell or something to give them to make them dead for a set period of time or something like that?

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Boopsahoy said:

That's what I thought and then I remembered in Raw Meat Dean had to kill himself to talk to Billie. If it was as easy as saying "Billie" why did he have to down those pills?

And Dean killed himself to talk to Tessa in Samarra, too.  Plus recited something.  A lot more complicated then.  

Edited January 28, 2017 by ahrtee
Have to make tenses match. *sigh*

[SueB]

@ahrtee  , Victor Henricksen called them survivalists. 
 

1 hour ago, Boopsahoy said:

That's what I thought and then I remembered in Raw Meat Dean had to kill himself to talk to Billie. If it was as easy as saying "Billie" why did he have to down those pills?

 

Billie told them that all they had to do was "call" when they were ready (in the Asa Fox episode).  So, apparently, if the Reaper is keeping tabs on you... they are just a "shout" away.  Billie chose to come.  When Tessa/Billie came at other times it was due to Death. And Tessa didn't choose to come, she was 'summoned'.  Just like Death (but via a different mechanism).  I don't know if they could choose to come otherwise.  But the Winchesters are 'special' in that 'I want you to die now' kind of way for Billie, so since she told them she would come when called, that's something they knew.

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I look at it as Dean can at least tell Cas he and Sam are alive. And that the feds took them someplace off book. And as it turned out Mr. Ketch knew about the off book sites. Dean  could have communicated about this older dude that interrogated them and maybe the BMoL could have researched that.

 

 

At least three times we've heard Cas acknowledge that he heard them, after the fact.  So it's possible he was, in fact, hearing them.  Knew they were troubled and this is part of Cas' emotional torment he was going through.  Between Billie laying the groundwork in the Asa Fox episode, and the events of First Blood, I think it's highly probable we'll be revisiting the brother's deal and Cas' perspective on their lockup. Neither Mary or Cas acted like they were dead.

Yes, I'm an optimist. 

Here's a question -- since the brother's decided to save the world first and be prepared to let each other die in S11 (Dean was pissed but didn't stop Sam from taking on the Mark, Sam didn't stop Dean from becoming the bomb), I'm wondering who would have won the conversation?  As @ahrtee indicated, it's a tough sell that Dean wouldn't try to pull something to let him die.  But really, you have to wonder who has it worse?  The person who dies or the person who carries on?  I could almost see Sam letting Dean be the one to die because he knows that.  His ability to compartmentalize might get him to that conclusion faster.  IDK.  I could see Dean figuring that out too.  But it's not like they are going to Heaven.  Maybe Dean might have a chance at calling on Amara to get Sam back out of the empty.  Then again, God took a shine to Sam ... he'd probably try to call in a favor.  Conundrum.  I'm back to rock, paper, scissors. 

Edited January 28, 2017 by SueB

[ahrtee]

25 minutes ago, SueB said:

 

@ahrtee  , Victor Henricksen called them survivalists. 
 

Oh, yeah.  But he didn't really know them, did he?  He was equating them with the "Timmy McVeigh" nutbag types, not who they really were.

26 minutes ago, SueB said:

Here's a question -- since the brother's decided to save the world first and be prepared to let each other die in S11 (Dean was pissed but didn't stop Sam from taking on the Mark, Sam didn't stop Dean from becoming the bomb), I'm wondering who would have won the conversation?  As @ahrtee indicated, it's a tough sell that Dean wouldn't try to pull something to let him die.  But really, you have to wonder who has it worse?  The person who dies or the person who carries on?  I could almost see Sam letting Dean be the one to die because he knows that.  His ability to compartmentalize might get him to that conclusion faster.  IDK.  I could see Dean figuring that out too.  But it's not like they are going to Heaven.  Maybe Dean might have a chance at calling on Amara to get Sam back out of the empty.  Then again, God took a shine to Sam ... he'd probably try to call in a favor.  Conundrum.  I'm back to rock, paper, scissors. 

IMO, it's always harder to be left behind (but that's my own abandonment issues, which is also Dean's problem.)  Different people handle it different ways, and even the same people can handle things differently depending on circumstances--in one sense, I had a harder time when my dad died because it was sudden, while I watched my mom disappear piece by piece into dementia for three years.   That was much harder to watch, but made it much easier to accept the end.  I think, if the boys were given the chance to prepare themselves and it would be a meaningful death (as with Amara or the MoC), vs. a sudden, random loss, both could accept it; but IMO Dean would always have a harder time than Sam because of his abandonment issues.  And I'm pretty sure Sam understands that, and knows it would be selfish for him to insist on going first.  But of course, there's the added question about whether their death would be a release or just eternal isolation in the empty.  I could see Sam wanting to protect Dean from that (and vice versa!)

Aside from that, I think Sam is temperamentally better able to deal with Dean's loss--after all, Dean barely lasted two days after Cold Oak, "white-knuckled" his way through the year with Lisa, and was desperate enough to allow Gadreel in rather than lose Sam.  Sam, OTOH, survived the 3 months Dean was gone courtesy of the Trickster in Mystery Spot, his 4 months in hell, his own Soulless year (when he knew where Dean was but didn't contact him) and the year Dean spent in Purgatory.  I'm not saying Sam was in good shape, and he was also desperate enough to turn to the Book of the Damned to save Dean this last time, though I think that was almost as much about saving his soul as his life.  But he was still more functional without Dean than Dean  has ever been without Sam.  JMO.  

But, with all that, I have no idea how the writers would resolve it, especially in a way that would make all the viewers accept it without getting mad at one brother or the other.    So maybe you're right, and rock, paper scissors is the answer after all.  

[ahrtee]

8 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Random thought: if they were in there a minimum of 6 weeks, shouldn't Dean's hair have been longer?  I know they showed him using an electric razor, but if he buzzed his entire head, it should have been even shorter.  Ditto for Sam.  

Well, he went through a whole year in Purgatory and his hair stayed the same length without looking ragged or hacked off, even though Cas managed to grow a beard.  Maybe John put a spell on Dean's hair when he was young so he wouldn't have to waste time and money on haircuts (but Sam found a way to break it for himself).  

[AwesomO4000]

27 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Aside from that, I think Sam is temperamentally better able to deal with Dean's loss--after all, Dean barely lasted two days after Cold Oak, "white-knuckled" his way through the year with Lisa, and was desperate enough to allow Gadreel in rather than lose Sam.  Sam, OTOH, survived the 3 months Dean was gone courtesy of the Trickster in Mystery Spot, his 4 months in hell, his own Soulless year (when he knew where Dean was but didn't contact him) and the year Dean spent in Purgatory.  I'm not saying Sam was in good shape, and he was also desperate enough to turn to the Book of the Damned to save Dean this last time, though I think that was almost as much about saving his soul as his life.  But he was still more functional without Dean than Dean  has ever been without Sam.  JMO.

I guess it depends on your definition of "functional," and maybe the various states each was in at the time the other died. I agree Dean didn't last very long the first time Sam was dead. And while Sam was alive and semi-functional without Dean in those 6 months the Trickster had Dean dead in "Mystery Spot," I wouldn't exactly call him the picture of mental health. From what we saw, he was an obsessed loner who didn't even keep in touch with Bobby for most of that time. He was also, as far as I could tell, ready and willing to sacrifice someone if he had to in order to get Dean back. I think that incident damaged Sam at bit as well, because even though yes, he "survived" the four months without Dean when Dean was in hell, as we saw in the flashbacks, that was mainly due to Ruby. First Sam tried to change places with Dean in hell rather quickly, since after the Trickster incident, Sam had a head start in knowing what his life without Dean would be like, and this time he didn't have a the goal of finding the Trickster to get Dean back to keep him going. When that didn't work, Sam tried a combination of drinking himself to death and suicide by demon before Ruby dragged him back to semi-functioning. And I'm guessing that it was about that time that he started with the demon blood-drinking. Not exactly healthy in the functioning department.

In comparison to that, Dean was almost normal during the year Sam was soulless*. He had a job, a relationship, a family. He even interacted with his neighbors. In some ways, losing Bobby almost seemed to be worse for Dean mental-health-wise. Sam's Amelia period I would say was close to Dean's Lisa and Ben period in terms of his being functional, but with the mark of Cain and Demon Dean, Sam was back to to mentally unstable and willing to sacrifice people in a way to get Dean back. Which pretty much resembled Dean's Gadreel incident...

So I guess at this point they are fairly equal in their dysfunction without each other from what I've seen.

* And Soulless Sam doesn't quite count in terms of surviving without Dean, since Soulless Sam was pretty much a sociopath. He couldn't really connect with anyone, and even though he functioned fine on that level, his version of "functioning" included randomly killing people - so not the picture of mental health or actually anyone you would want living with you - like at all, since you might end up dead if you happened to get in the way. Except for the occasional times he was amusing, mostly Soulless Sam was on the scary side.

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I guess it depends on your definition of "functional,"

Well, I said "functional," not "the picture of mental health."  This isn't a competition.   And it's JMO.

[mertensia]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

My headcanon is that the "Chow time" soldier liked them and wouldn't rat out there contraband. I have no real reason for it.

He called chow time like people calling dinner to animals-completely impersonally. I see their isolation as more like shunning than anything, and that can do awful things to people. 

Yeah, the standard advice for traveling in Northern Arizona is "use maps". GPS is just too unreliable. Plus maps are so much more interesting than GPS. Also I find I get a better sense of the area than a featureless a to b GPS map.

[ahrtee]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I guess it depends on your definition of "functional,"

Sorry...I didn't mean to sound snarky.  Because it really *does* depend on my definition of functional.  

To me, it means the ability to accept what happened, keep going and even start to move forward.  I'm not saying Sam wasn't terribly damaged or being self-destructive and obsessed.  But even with his bad choices and worse behavior, he actually *was* moving forward instead of being stuck on the need to get Dean back at any cost (well, after the Trickster episode, anyway).  Oh, he certainly tried everything, including trading his own soul and suicide-by-demon, but eventually realized that he couldn't do it, and (with Ruby's help) switched to revenge and trying to save people.  In that way, he was actually following in John's footsteps, with his single-minded drive for revenge and "saving people, hunting things"--the way he coped with losing Mary.  Sam could have stopped hunting and stuck with research, trying to find a spell (or a witch or a demon or some black magic way) to get Dean back, but instead he moved on to the next phase of acceptance/revenge.  Again, definitely not good, but it was something that kept him going and gave him a purpose instead of just stuck in obsession over getting Dean out of hell.  

Whether it was because Dean didn't have the same amount of time to adapt/accept as Sam, or because of their different personalities, Dean never did give up on saving Sam, even when it was obviously useless.    This is NOT a judgment on either brother, or saying that one way was better than the other.  To me, it just highlights their different personalities.  IMO, Sam has always been more pragmatic.  Dean's weakness has always been his need to protect and/or save his brother (whether he wants it or not.)    

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In comparison to that, Dean was almost normal during the year Sam was soulless. He had a job, a relationship, a family. He even interacted with his neighbors. In some ways, losing Bobby almost seemed to be worse for Dean mental-health-wise. Sam's Amelia period I would say was close to Dean's Lisa and Ben period in terms of his being functional

This is where my interpretation is somewhat different.  To compare  Dean's year with Lisa vs. Sam's with Amelia:   both had "families" (actually, replacements for their brother), and both stopped hunting.  But, while I don't think Dean would even have gone to Lisa except that he'd promised Sam he would, Sam was running away from his despair and looking for something to hold on to.  Last time it was Ruby and revenge; this time, luckily, it was Amelia and "real life."   

While the montage scenes showed that Dean *seemed* to be settling in, he was constantly on edge, kept his weapons and whiskey close at hand, and, by his account,  drank too much, brought home hundreds of books to research and never stopped trying to find a way to get Sam back.  He never did really accept that Sam was gone.  Maybe that was because he knew that Sam was going through torture, as opposed to Sam believing that Dean was dead and in heaven.  But he was still in denial and *not* functional, even if he appeared to be on the surface.

Sam, OTOH, in his Amelia flashbacks, showed that he was at least beginning to enjoy life:  they went on picnics and actually shared emotions and discussed their losses.  To me, the most important scene was the one with Amelia's father, when Sam was able to talk about Dean to an outsider and say, "he was a good guy.  I miss him."  *That* is what I mean by functional...that  he was able to accept Dean's loss and start to move forward.  If Dean hadn't come back, Sam probably would have been more willing to stay and fight for Amelia, and might well have settled down permanently.  But IMO getting Dean back reminded Sam that she was just a replacement, not what he really wanted or needed.  

Again, this isn't trying to prove anything about either of them, and it's not a competition.  It's just my opinion, based on what happened before, that Sam would *probably* be able to deal with Dean's death better than Dean could handle his.  But of course, YMMV.   And with everything that happened in the last 3 seasons, they've both changed in some fundamental ways, so there's no way of knowing any more.  

[Demented Daisy]

I figured that Sam and Dean wouldn't decide who goes, they would leave it up to Billie.  

[Aeryn13]

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I figured that Sam and Dean wouldn't decide who goes, they would leave it up to Billie.  

In that case the deal would make less sense than ever. Because I can buy each of them stupidly thinking they will make sure the other one gets to stay alive but if they believed there was an actual real risk the respective other would die? For something as silly as escaping from a prison after just six weeks? I just can`t see it. That only - barely - works for me if each brother was certain they could call the sacrifice.

Why then they wouldn`t also know that would be true for their brother and know that would lead to a ridiculous stalemate, I do not know. You don`t need a crystal ball to see that coming.  

[mertensia]

Oh, not me, Demented Daisy, I figured Dean. He's more ready to go and he's noticed that Sam and Mary have a tighter bond.