S15.E14: Last Holiday

[Castiels Cat]

10 hours ago, Bergamot said:

It's been a while since I watched those March episodes (and I only watched them once because I didn't like them.) But that's not what I remember seeing. Dean was not all: "I absolutely and unequivocally trust Billie!!" and I didn't see him "dismiss Sam's concerns." He said he believed in Billie, but refused to use the word "trust" in relation to her. He kind of shrugged, said "I don't know", said that she "probably" knew what she was doing.

And Sam on his part was not all: "NO DEAN, you must not trust Billie!!" He said, "All I'm saying is, I wish we knew more". To which Dean responded, "Yeah, I got questions too, but right now this is the only plan we got." Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

So I don't see any great significance in their conversation. The way it stands now, Billie has a plan. Jack has chosen to trust Billie and carry out her plan. Castiel announces that he will trust Billie as well, because he trusts Jack, and makes a point of crowing about being right about Jack saving the world. And don't forget that when Jack decides to go after Kaia, Sam is the one who protests, "But what about Billie's plan?"  Yet somehow Dean is the one who is at fault for being too trusting? Doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, the main reason I didn't think it was important what Dean thought is that the show has made it very clear that this is now the Jack Story. I find it hard to believe that anything Dean does or doesn't do is going to make a difference. It is all about Jack now. (Of course, if Dabb can make Dean be completely unimportant and yet still have everything that goes wrong somehow be his fault, I have no doubt that he will. It would be the best of both worlds for him.)

This is a good assessment.  

[PAForrest]

11 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Anyway, the main reason I didn't think it was important what Dean thought is that the show has made it very clear that this is now the Jack Story. I find it hard to believe that anything Dean does or doesn't do is going to make a difference. It is all about Jack now. (Of course, if Dabb can make Dean be completely unimportant and yet still have everything that goes wrong somehow be his fault, I have no doubt that he will. It would be the best of both worlds for him.)

Dean and Sam are irrelevant by design. No, sadly nothing they do or say or think matters, because they don't matter. It's the way Drabb intends it to be, it's what he's crafted over his years. If he hadn't, seasons 16 and 17 would have been nailed down long before now.

I can't fault Jeremy Adams, he has to write the story - or lack thereof as the case may be - that Drabb wants.

I did see one very long time SPN media fan who now writes for Variety - Danielle Turchiano - who complained on twitter about the story focusing solely on Jack saving the day, and that she hoped this would not be the case because Supernatural is supposed to be about Dean and Sam. I was happy and sad to read that, and I hope there will be more complaints. I mean, it's too late now, nothing will change - the media should have started complaining a long time ago. But given how much of a fan this person has been over the years, it's interesting that she too is not happy with the direction away from the brothers. Buckle up, sweetheart, it's only going to get worse.

[Bergamot]

14 hours ago, Terese said:

I only remember the more recent episode, either Galaxy Brain or Destiny's Child. Sam expresses distrust for Billie and cites the Malak Box as an example. Dean says, "Well, she was right about Rowena." The conversation ended.  Neither were motivated, apparently, to continue. Neither is gungho about anything, or inquisitive, alarmed, persistent about anything. 

Yes, that is the same conversation that I was referencing. And it ended with Sam commenting that all he was saying, was that he wished they knew more, and Dean responding that he had questions too, but that right now it was the only plan they had.

For me, the problem is not so much that they aren't doing anything. They have been very active -- going through the Rift to the Bad Place, tracking down Sister Jo, visiting Hell, going after the Occultum, and so on. Busy, busy boys. They are going lots of places and doing lots of um, stuff! But none of it is interesting to me because there is no essential connection to the Winchesters, no personal significance to their involvement. No reason why it has to be THEM, Dean and Sam Winchester, helping Jack carry out the plan, rather than some other interchangeable supporting characters.

But I don't really think the problem is that they are not being proactive enough -- I don't think it matters at this point how busy they are doing stuff. And it's not that they are all being too trusting. Well, maybe I could see that with Castiel. When he was gloating about how he was right about Jack all along, it's almost like he was jinxing himself, asking for his words to be turned against him. But as much as I would enjoy that, I don't think it will happen. If killing Mary Winchester did not dislodge Jack from his position as the hero / protagonist at the center of the story, nothing will.

[Bergamot]

In regard to this episode, I have to say that I enjoyed getting a glimpse of Dean's Scooby-Doo "underthings"! (Did he buy them for himself? Did someone give them to him as a present?) And I just wanted to mention that in the DVD commentary on the pilot episode, it is brought up in passing that Jessica's Smurf shirt was originally intended to be a Scooby-Doo shirt! 😊

I wish that it had been! Not that it would mean anything, or that I would want Sam getting nostalgic about it in Scoobynatural or anything like that, but just because it would have been fun. But anyway, thank goodness that Dean and Sam didn't end up in an episode of The Smurfs instead!

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

But I don't really think the problem is that they are not being proactive enough -- I don't think it matters at this point how busy they are doing stuff. And it's not that they are all being too trusting. Well, maybe I could see that with Castiel. When he was gloating about how he was right about Jack all along, it's almost like he was jinxing himself, asking for his words to be turned against him. But as much as I would enjoy that, I don't think it will happen. If killing Mary Winchester did not dislodge Jack from his position as the hero / protagonist at the center of the story, nothing will.

I will never understand this. No matter how it happened, or who did it, being responsible for the death of your friends' (not family, certain not 'fathers') mother is not something easily forgiven. You might learn to live with it, and even remain friends, but you don't just shrug it off in the matter of days that Castiel expected Dean to. Honestly, I would expect him to forgive Jack before he forgave Castiel  - Jack at least had supernatural influence and his 'youth' to blame. Castiel had no excuse (IMO).

I give full marks to Jeremy for writing the Dean/Jack scene as he did in this episode.

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I give full marks to Jeremy for writing the Dean/Jack scene as he did in this episode.

Then he ruined it by having Dean bake Jack a birthday cake.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Then he ruined it by having Dean bake Jack a birthday cake.

I don't know, I think that is just Dean doing what he said - trying. It's his nature to take care of people.

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't know, I think that is just Dean doing what he said - trying. It's his nature to take care of people.

It was too soon.

[Bergamot]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I will never understand this. No matter how it happened, or who did it, being responsible for the death of your friends' (not family, certain not 'fathers') mother is not something easily forgiven.

Especially considering that the premise of the entire show, down to its deepest foundations, is built upon the (original) loss of this family's mother. Everything came from that. To use Mary's death this way, to hijack it to serve as a convenient plot point along the road to Jack's character being a hero -- well, I can't understand it either.

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I give full marks to Jeremy for writing the Dean/Jack scene as he did in this episode.

I do too. Especially after the ridiculous travesty of having Castiel self-righteously scold Dean for not "letting it go", so that Dean was forced to blubber out an apology for suffering from his mother's death.  I can't believe that Dean was actually allowed in this episode to say that what happened is something you don't just get over, and that he was still angry. I dread the possibility though that when the subject is brought up in other writers' episodes, they will make Dean eat his words.

[Aeryn13]

44 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Then he ruined it by having Dean bake Jack a birthday cake.

I still give him credit for giving Dean a valid point, portraying his viewpoint sympathetically and not making it a lesson ep where he gets to express anger earlier but then it gets taken back at the end.

This was still the best handling of "Dean is allowed to have emotions" in years. 

The cake, yeah, that was because Jackie-poo was the absolute focus of the ep. It was about him from start to finish.

Quote

I can't believe that Dean was actually allowed in this episode to say that what happened is something you don't just get over, and that he was still angry. I dread the possibility though that when the subject is brought up in other writers' episodes, they will make Dean eat his words.

Since they already ended in a squishy cake-gifting place here, I don`t think (hope) there is any need to revisit it. I mean, they are nice-nice enough now for whatever. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Aeryn13

[Katy M]

54 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

But anyway, thank goodness that Dean and Sam didn't end up in an episode of The Smurfs instead!

I wrote a fanfic drabble about the episode Fallen Idols and how Brainy Smurf was the one that Sam idolized.  Dean just stepped on him.  

[Bergamot]

52 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Then he ruined it by having Dean bake Jack a birthday cake.

I don't think it was necessarily out of character for Dean. Like gonzosgirrl said, he's trying. At least, Jeremy Adams gave us a tiny glimpse of what is going on beneath the surface with Dean. But I think the real problem is that the show is not interested in exploring Dean's motivations there in any depth.

If the show was still about the Winchesters as the main characters, instead of being all about Jack, they would have shown Jack making a lopsided birthday cake for Dean. It would have tied back to Dean wishing for his own birthday cake earlier in the episode (there could have even been some reference to what Dean's birthdays were like growing up.) And we could have seen Dean struggling with his emotions at at receiving a birthday cake, and trying to come to grips with what has happened and how he feels about it now. But the show wants us to focus on Jack and his feelings, and think about what this means for Jack, and wonder what kind of birthday wish Jack would make.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Bergamot

[Bergamot]

32 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Since they already ended in a squishy cake-gifting place here, I don`t think (hope) there is any need to revisit it. I mean, they are nice-nice enough now for whatever. 

I hope you are right!

[Terese]

3 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, that is the same conversation that I was referencing. And it ended with Sam commenting that all he was saying, was that he wished they knew more, and Dean responding that he had questions too, but that right now it was the only plan they had.

For me, the problem is not so much that they aren't doing anything. They have been very active -- going through the Rift to the Bad Place, tracking down Sister Jo, visiting Hell, going after the Occultum, and so on. Busy, busy boys. They are going lots of places and doing lots of um, stuff! But none of it is interesting to me because there is no essential connection to the Winchesters, no personal significance to their involvement. No reason why it has to be THEM, Dean and Sam Winchester, helping Jack carry out the plan, rather than some other interchangeable supporting characters.

But I don't really think the problem is that they are not being proactive enough -- I don't think it matters at this point how busy they are doing stuff. And it's not that they are all being too trusting. Well, maybe I could see that with Castiel. When he was gloating about how he was right about Jack all along, it's almost like he was jinxing himself, asking for his words to be turned against him. But as much as I would enjoy that, I don't think it will happen. If killing Mary Winchester did not dislodge Jack from his position as the hero / protagonist at the center of the story, nothing will.

Mary? Oh yeah, Sam and Dean's mom who was...oh that thing that happened, that Castiel alluded to as "I believe in Jack, then things happened and he was taken away from us." 

And yes, they do stuff; but, it's all convenient quick trips with cheap spells done by someone else, and no planning or struggle or anything, before back to the bunker. So, I think I actually forgot or put it in the same category as a beer run.

I suppose, I am simply more accustomed to the Sam and Dean who actually respond to mechanical and electrical failures as a red alert and never assume it's just the pipes. And Death, who threatens them at every stop, would be fully interrogated while respectfully binded. So, given how they usually respond to the end of the world, I would call this complacency.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

It was too soon.

Speaking of time, I'm not even sure how much time elapsed in this episode. Did an entire year pass or were all the holidays in a week or what?

[Katy M]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Speaking of time, I'm not even sure how much time elapsed in this episode. Did an entire year pass or were all the holidays in a week or what?

I kind of felt like she was just doing holidays because she felt like it.  IIRC, they went on that first vamp hunt, came back, and there was a Christmas tree.  This was originally supposed to air in the spring, so I think she just had no concept of dates since she never left the bunker.  Or maybe it was almost Christmas when she put herself on standby mode.  It seems really weird that she would wait a whole year, or close to, to kill Jack.  Plus, it seems weird that Cas wouldn't pop in for an entire year.  Or that literally nothing happened on the Chuck front.  

[FlickChick]

28 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I kind of felt like she was just doing holidays because she felt like it.  IIRC, they went on that first vamp hunt, came back, and there was a Christmas tree.  This was originally supposed to air in the spring, so I think she just had no concept of dates since she never left the bunker.  Or maybe it was almost Christmas when she put herself on standby mode.  It seems really weird that she would wait a whole year, or close to, to kill Jack.  Plus, it seems weird that Cas wouldn't pop in for an entire year.  Or that literally nothing happened on the Chuck front.  

My guess is that each time they went out on a hunt, they came back to a new holiday to celebrate. I got the impression that not much time had passed during the episode - perhaps a couple/few weeks. We need a "24 Clock" with these writers. We had one of those in "Plucky's"!

[NougatJack]

Finally got the chance to watch this episode. 

My favorite scenes were Sam and Dean taking their lunch bags from Mrs. B. before "going to work". Their expressions on their faces were priceless. Although I didn´t like that Mrs. B. managed to overpower Jack so easily, it was good that Jack an Dean got the chance to have their talk. I liked that Dean was honest to Jack, his anger is understandable and Jack had to know it.  The birthday cake was sweet - I wonder if Jack´s birthday wish becomes true.

[Castiels Cat]

17 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I don't think it was necessarily out of character for Dean. Like gonzosgirrl said, he's trying. At least, Jeremy Adams gave us a tiny glimpse of what is going on beneath the surface with Dean. But I think the real problem is that the show is not interested in exploring Dean's motivations there in any depth.

If the show was still about the Winchesters as the main characters, instead of being all about Jack, they would have shown Jack making a lopsided birthday cake for Dean. It would have tied back to Dean wishing for his own birthday cake earlier in the episode (there could have even been some reference to what Dean's birthdays were like growing up.) And we could have seen Dean struggling with his emotions at at receiving a birthday cake, and trying to come to grips with what has happened and how he feels about it now. But the show wants us to focus on Jack and his feelings, and think about what this means for Jack, and wonder what kind of birthday wish Jack would make.

Actually the show didn't want us to focus on anything beyond the superficial of what we have been told: Jack is going to be the hero that saves the world.

No one focused on anything that they weren't handed. Jack slurped down shakes and was overpowered easily.

Sam and Dean just accepted those bag lunches and easy hunts...

Sometimes it is bad writing, sometimes it is Chuck's writing, and sometimes it is foreshadowing.

I have to believe there was more than cute humor in this episode. It's a Supernatural tradition for humorous episodes to lean towards the mytharc.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

17 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Especially considering that the premise of the entire show, down to its deepest foundations, is built upon the (original) loss of this family's mother. Everything came from that. To use Mary's death this way, to hijack it to serve as a convenient plot point along the road to Jack's character being a hero -- well, I can't understand it either.

I do too. Especially after the ridiculous travesty of having Castiel self-righteously scold Dean for not "letting it go", so that Dean was forced to blubber out an apology for suffering from his mother's death.  I can't believe that Dean was actually allowed in this episode to say that what happened is something you don't just get over, and that he was still angry. I dread the possibility though that when the subject is brought up in other writers' episodes, they will make Dean eat his words.

Not just the original loss of the mother which completely changed and informed the development of Dean and lead him to christen TFB... Dean lost her again in season 13 and we watched him completely lose it over the course of that season. The man held a gun to Kaia and forced her to help him... for Mary. He committed suicide on a ghost hunt. He did exactly what he knew Death said not to do...

And yeah... I get why he could not ritually sacrifice a child he loved like a son... but I can also see why he would never want to look at Jack again... ever. And Cas too. Ever.

If they were writing for the Winchesters and for Dean... Jack would be locked away using the MoC or dead. That would be the mytharc... and Dean would be doubly devastated. 

However they were going after the Riverdale crowd with a milquetoast character... 

 

 

[NougatJack]

Dean shouldn´t also never want to look at Mary too, after she worked together with the enemy who tortured his brother. That´s absolutely a no-go, the Winchesters have killed people for far less. 

[gonzosgirrl]

49 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

No one focused on anything that they weren't handed. Jack slurped down shakes and was overpowered easily.

I am still wtf'ing over how easily she subdued the Most!Powerful!Being!Evarrrr! How did they not even question whether or not she could be of assistance in the God!Wars!

17 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

Dean shouldn´t also never want to look at Mary too, after she worked together with the enemy who tortured his brother. That´s absolutely a no-go, the Winchesters have killed people for far less. 

Well would you look at that. Finally something we agree on.

But you need to include Sam in there, too. He not only didn't even acknowledge that aspect, he joined her in working with them and lied to Dean about it.

[tessathereaper]

21 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

Dean shouldn´t also never want to look at Mary too, after she worked together with the enemy who tortured his brother. That´s absolutely a no-go, the Winchesters have killed people for far less. 

Except she's his actual MOTHER, people tend to be a little different when it's their mom.  

And yes, then Sam himself joined her so no biggie.

Edited October 14, 2020 by tessathereaper

[NougatJack]

Yeah, I agree. I think Mary has been a horrible mother since she came back from the dead, but people tend to forgive easier when it´s family. 

But Dean considers Cas and Jack as familiy too, so he will forgive them too. At least I think so! 

And yes, it was weired that Sam joined too. I must say, I really hated the BMOL storyline. 

[Bergamot]

I tried a re-watch of the episode, and while I didn't hate it, it didn't do much for me.  I know that the episode was supposed to be all light-hearted and fun, but I have a hard time seeing the story of Mrs. Butters that way. She is a wood nymph, who should -- as Dean points out -- be out in the woods, nymphing. Being part of the natural world, free to dance in the forest and enjoy the light in the trees and doing whatever else nymphs do. 

Instead she was captured and brainwashed into serving as a "magic roomba" for the Men of Letters in their gloomy bunker so they didn't have to wash their own clothes or cook meals or clean up after themselves. It's kind of horrifying, actually. Mrs. Butters happily accepting as a good-bye present a photo of the men who did this to her came across as tone-deaf to me.

I also didn't really enjoy the holiday celebration montage as much as everyone else seemed to. Again, I understand that they were just supposed to be fun, and obviously Dean and Sam enjoyed all the good food, but to me the celebrations seemed artificial and hollow rather than heart-warming. Holiday celebrations are about more than lots of food and seasonal decorations. As a non-human, Mrs. Butters did her best, but I can't agree that she somehow supplied the joy that was needed in their lives.  It's like she was able to supply the shell of the holiday but not the heart of it.

Compare the Christmas celebration in this episode, with the huge, fancy tree, professional decorations, piped-in music and special baked holiday treats, to the one in "A Very Supernatural Christmas". A sad little Charlie Brown Christmas tree decorated with pine tree air fresheners, gifts from the gas mart down the street wrapped in paper bags, and a football game on TV. Yet which celebration was more meaningful, more filled with love and warmth -- and more quintessentially "Winchester"?

Edited October 15, 2020 by Bergamot

[Myrelle]

37 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Mrs. Butters happily accepting as a good-bye present a photo of the men who did this to her came across as tone-deaf to me

IA with this whole post, but the above most of all.

No re-watch necessary or desired.

The only part that stuck with me was Dean's little boy glee at coming back to the bunker and seeing all the decorations; and that was all Jensen with no thanks necessary to the ever sub par writing, at this point. 

 

 

[Aeryn13]

59 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I tried a re-watch of the episode, and while I didn't hate it, it didn't do much for me.  I know that the episode was supposed to be all light-hearted and fun, but I have a hard time seeing the story of Mrs. Butters that way. She is a wood nymph, who should -- as Dean points out -- be out in the woods, nymphing. Being part of the natural world, free to dance in the forest and enjoy the light in the trees and doing whatever else nymphs do. 

Instead she was captured and brainwashed into serving as a "magic roomba" for the Men of Letters in their gloomy bunker so they didn't have to wash their own clothes or cook meals or clean up after themselves. It's kind of horrifying, actually. Mrs. Butters happily accepting as a good-bye present a photo of the men who did this to her came across as tone-deaf to me.

I also didn't really enjoy the holiday celebration montage as much as everyone else seemed to. Again, I understand that they were just supposed to be fun, and obviously Dean and Sam enjoyed all the good food, but to me the celebrations seemed artificial and hollow rather than heart-warming. Holiday celebrations are about more than lots of food and seasonal decorations. As a non-human, Mrs. Butters did her best, but I can't agree that she somehow supplied the joy that was needed in their lives.  It's like she was able to supply the shell of the holiday but not the heart of it.

Compare the Christmas celebration in this episode, with the huge, fancy tree, professional decorations, piped-in music and special baked holiday treats, to the one in "A Very Supernatural Christmas". A sad little Charlie Brown Christmas tree decorated with pine tree air fresheners, gifts from the gas mart down the street wrapped in paper bags, and a football game on TV. Yet which celebration was more meaningful, more filled with love and warmth -- and more quintessentially "Winchester"?

While it all falls apart if you look at it too closely, I think the Mrs.Butters character really benefited from a charming portrayal by the actress. 

I legit felt bad for the character when she first appeared and the brothers told her what was going on, it was a lot to take in for her and especially her crestfallen look at the prospect of leaving. Yes, she was totally brainwashed and Stockholmed into her fuzzy feelings for the old MOL but there was no changing that at that point. She had those feelings and viewed the bunker as her home. At least she could resolve the feeling duty-bound to the bunker even though she actually wanted to go home-home in the end, while not being able to resolve or even acknowledge her mistreatment. 

In terms of one-off characters and guest stars in the recent years, it has been slim pickings so this almost shined in comparism.   

[gonzosgirrl]

Not gonna lie, by the end I was kind of glazed over. Did she understand that Cuthbert Sinclair had brainwashed her, and the MoL used/abused her? If so, why would she want the photo of them? ETA: Sorry @Aeryn13 I should have refreshed before I posted - I didn't see your post.

Do you think anyone told Jeremy that Sam hates Halloween?

Edited October 15, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Do you think anyone told Jeremy that Sam hates Halloween?

Who? There would have to be someone who knows/remembers this to tell him. Such a person hasn't been with the show in ages.

[Bergamot]

31 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

While it all falls apart if you look at it too closely, I think the Mrs.Butters character really benefited from a charming portrayal by the actress. 

I agree with this! The actress did an excellent job, and she did engage my sympathies. I think the episode would have worked better for me if they had made her a little less human and emphasized more that she was a non-human creature -- still trying to follow her instincts by taking care of her "family", but not really understanding how human beings work. We did get a little of that with her deciding to kill Jack and being ready to torture Sam into cooperating, but it's almost like she was written as someone nice suddenly going crazy, rather than a truly non-human character making a mistake.

 

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Do you think anyone told Jeremy that Sam hates Halloween?

LOL! You know, that birthday party for Sam with the party hats reminded me of the episode about the Ghostfacers, when the ghost dragged him to a hidden room and had him tied to a chair. There was a mummified birthday cake with confetti, and corpses sitting around the table with party hats, and Lesley Gore's "It's My Party" playing on a loop. Talk about creepy!! And I thought that the moment when the ghost carefully put the party hat on Sam was brilliant -- both hilarious and deliciously creepy at the same time!

[Macbeth]

I really liked this episode.  I don't believe they will stick the landing at all.  So I am enjoying what I am sure will be the last lighthearted episode.

Dean really need to have some mothering in his life.  Because he had be a co-parent to Sam when he was 4.  And eventually parent when both could be left on their own so dad could make his kills.

Was it over the top mothering not seen in the real world.  Martha Stewart on steroids. Yes.  But it was a nice to see Dean taken care of.

And it was funny.

And I was happy that Mrs. Butters was saved from going over the brink and was allowed to go back to her woods - where she belonged.  

 

[Dobian]

Laughed at Dean's "Evil Mary Poppins" quip.  He always stands out in these lighthearted episodes.