Unpopular Opinions

[Lazlo]

I recently rewatched the series once more.

I was never a huge Willow fan (which honestly is probably an UO in of itself) but I was surprised at how irritating I found her cutesiness this time around, especially from Season 4 on. Some Willow/Tara scenes are near unwatchable, which is a shame because I like Tara.

I agree with those who felt sorry for Wesley in Season 3. He did exactly help his case and I understand why after the events of 'Helpless' Buffy would never trust the Council again but he tried to help only to have it thrown back in his face again and again.

Speaking of Season 3, while I'd say it probably has the most consistent episode to episode quality I'd probably rank it below 2, 5, 6 and 4 simply because, for me, no one episode in Season 3 stood out the way every other season had multiple truly memorable episodes. It is the most generic season lacking both clunkers and truly great episodes.

'Doublemeat Palace' has a cheesy monster who might have fit much better in Season 1 but otherwise I quite like it. Well, appreciate is a better word than like, I actually find it a super depressing episode.

[Loandbehold]

4 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I feel like Lie to Me is one of the most underrated episodes of Buffy. The final scene with Buffy and Giles at the grave was amazing. 

I agree, but I also appreciate Buffy's conversation w/ Ford when they are looking down on the other students and Buffy learns about Ford's cancer. The situation is not completely black and white and leads to Buffy's statement at Ford's grave.

[PhilMarlowe2]

I think the show should have probably ended after season 3, and definitely after season 5. Seasons 4 & 5 had their bright spots - namely, the episodes that Joss wrote and directed - but I thought seasons 6 & 7 were abysmal. Not even the musical episode worked for me. The show was a former shell of itself and I'm always in a bit of shock that other viewers not only tolerate those last two seasons, but seem to regard them as anywhere remotely close to the greatness of the first three seasons. To me, the show was genuinely GREAT seasons 1 - 3, hit or miss 4 - 5, and then actively awful 6 - 7.

[Sassyfangirl]

I liked Buffy but spn is a more awesome show. But Buffy is great. I hated Angel and I hated Xander he was such a asshole. And spike was overrated. Riley was boring but at least he wasn’t a vampire. And Dean Winchester from spn would have been the right man for Buffy. Yep I ship them too. Also the idea of bangel and spuffy was gross. I’m glad Buffy wwasnt with Xander either yuck. I mean really Xander was the weak link in the show. Anyway I liked this show but spn is more watchable. Plus more seasons to enjoy the awesomeness that is Dean Winchester;)

[Halting Hex]

On 8/20/2017 at 7:28 PM, PhilMarlowe2 said:

Seasons 4 & 5 had their bright spots - namely, the episodes that Joss wrote and directed

We're excluding Family, I trust?  I mean, when you not only start the ep with that cringeworthy "half-a-camel" W/T conversation, but have to devote a scene to Buffy and Xander saying they don't know anything about Tara other than she's "nice" (translation:  we've had this character on the show for almost a full season and we've been so scared of freaking the audience out about the "gay" thing that we've left her a complete blank), you know you've got a loser.  And that's not even getting into character-destructive stuff like Buffy blatantly lying to Riley (whom she's been sexual with for 9 months) about Dawn, or logic fails like the invisible demons (who don't know they're invisible) knocking on the door of the Magic Box (because demons always knock, right?) and then gliding past the oblivious Willow when she opens the door and "sees" nobody there.  (Because when there's a knock on my door and nobody appears to be there, I never look outside to see where the jerks ran off to.  And I leave the door open, rather than, oh, close it.)  But Joss wants his "cool" visual (see also the "family snapshot" pose, with Spike included but Riley absent…just hit me with a brick, please), so on we go.

Still, I could let one turkey pass.  At least he didn't campaign for an Emmy off of that one.  I guess my UO is that I don't find the more famous "Joss Specials" of the last four years that great, either.  I grant you that it could just be my cold, dead heart which makes me find The Body so boring, but even so.  Maybe if Buffy would let the Scoobs follow her thirty feet down a freaking corridor to help rescue Dawn, I could reach an emotional point beyond "pissed off", but she doesn't, so I can't.

[Jack Shaftoe]

I loved Family the first time I watched it. The more I thought about it later, the less sense it made. Tara's backstory is an interesting (if too obvious) metaphor for LGBT people with bad parents, however it makes no sense whatsoever as a story of a which with actual magical powers. Tara and (presumably) her mother thought they would become demons if they use magic because Tara's father says so? Why is he more knowledgeable about that them? Why don't they use, you know, a spell, to see if it's true? Why do they keep casting spells despite being convinced that this is bad for them? Why did this abusive and controlling father allow Tara to go to a college in the first place? Didn't they notice that Tara's mother did not actually turn into a vicious demon once she turned twenty? How the hell does Spike's chip differentiate between a demon who looks human and an actual human? Why did Joss stop bothering to even try writing episodes that made a lick of sense?

[Halting Hex]

4 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

How the hell does Spike's chip differentiate between a demon who looks human and an actual human?

Well, in their eponymous episode, we see that the Initiative has technology that allows them to scan for body temperatures and thus differentiate between humans and non-humans; of all the likely impossibilities in the design of the Sodding Chip (a product of SodCorp™), I can handwave that the chip is similarly temperature-aware.  So I'm reasonably cool with that part.

(Of course, the commandos get so confused in that episode that Forrest wants to take Willow, claiming that she "could have been turned", so I guess he forgot about that handy body-temp-scanning software, after all.  But they have the tech to tell Spike from Willow, so presumably Spike's chip can tell Lei-Ach demons from Human!Tara, as well.)

But let me ask a question in return:  why should the Scoobs accept Spike's word that the chip causes him pain when he tries to hit Tara?  Given that I can easily come up with at least five reasons, off the top of my head, for Spike to lie and help Demon!Tara keep her secret, in exchange for favors in return

1) Money (and the Scoobs know that Spike tried to shake Giles down for cash not long ago, in A New Man)

2) Blood (he's a vampire, he's always going to need blood)

3) Sex (hey, he's dating Harmony, a little rape-via-blackmail would probably be a step up, from Spike's perspective)

4) assistance with removing the chip (which Buffy knows Spike sought, just two episodes ago)

5) assistance with evil schemes in general

This last would be even more likely if Spike knew that Tara had actually cursed the Scoobies by swearing allegiance to a demonic entity ("Blind Cadria").  I can imagine a fic where a scheming Spike, a slowly-corrupted Tara, and a power-seeking Cadria work together to gain power (get to the Key before Glory, perhaps) and sabotage the unknowing Scoobies.

But no, one love-tap from Spike and a dramatic flinch, and the issue of Tara's possible demonhood (first raised in Goodbye, Iowa) goes away, forever.  Sigh.  To paraphrase the Buffster herself (from Becoming, Part 2):

"We have [Spike's] word, not proof."

[Halting Hex]

9 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Tara's backstory is an interesting (if too obvious) metaphor for LGBT people with bad parents,

And why are we being all metaphorical at this point, anyhow?  Tara is already out about her non-heterosexuality.  ("Tara's your girlfriend?" "Newsflash, Will: everybody already knows.")  Heck, we're now eight episodes past The Yoko Factor, wherein Spike disorients Willow and Tara by faking ignorance of their romantic relationship and "mistaking" the "conversation" he claims Buffy and Xander had about Willow for being about "the new thing".  ("If a girl wants to be a witch, that's nobody's business but her own, that's what I say.")  

So IMO it's a little late for Joss to just play Tara's lesbianism as subtextual when it's been established main-text canon for a while now.  Hey, Joss, take your "wink, wink, nudge, nudge, she's gay, geddit?" metaphor and nudge off, why don't you?

Of course, disliking Family isn't really UN-popular (and I still mark out for "Good birthday?" "Best birthday", I admit), so let me just say that Once More, with Spuffy blows and now we're back on topic. :)

JFC, in a span of 21 episodes (The Gift to Villains), less than one full season, Joss and company turned Giles and Xander and Willow all into murderers, presumably so they'd have no moral high ground to criticize Buffy, the Vampires Lay Her 2.0.  With all the effort put into polishing Spike's knob, it's a wonder the bloody thing didn't fall off.  Grr…

Edited June 8, 2018 by Halting Hex

[illdoc]

1 minute ago, Halting Hex said:

Giles and Xander and Willow all into murderers

To be fair, I believe "murder" requires intent. True, Giles & Willow intended to kill their victims, but Xander's victims (I assume you mean the ones that died during OMWF) were unintentional--Xander did not set out to kill anyone. They just died as a result of his actions (manslaughter?).

[Halting Hex]

Fair point.  (And I still say Xander was covering for Dawn, anyhow.)  But even so.

[Jack Shaftoe]

21 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

And why are we being all metaphorical at this point, anyhow?

Because the network executives wouldn't have it any other way? Well, if you believe Joss, that is, and he isn't exactly shy about finding scapegoats for his failures.

Quote

So IMO it's a little late for Joss to just play Tara's lesbianism as subtextual when it's been established main-text canon for a while now.

I don't think he did that. Tara's sexuality was textual, the metaphor was parallel to it. Just like Angel was both a literal monster and a mundane bad boy metaphor in the second half of S2. Now, if Tara's family had arrived before Tara's lesbianism had become textual, then, yes, I would agree Joss was playing too safe but that's not what happened. I think it was a good idea but the execution was pretty terrible.

Quote

let me just say that Once More, with Spuffy blows

It does, doesn't it? Yet another episode where not only the characters do all the stupid stuff typical for them in S6 but again the premise is utter nonsense. Xander summons a freaking demon, so there will be some music and dancing? This demon burns people to death but this totally doesn't trouble Xander, nor his friends blame him in any way once it's revealed it was him. And to top it off the stupid demon didn't know who summoned him. In other news, Willow is a rapist, Buffy is now into an unrepentant serial killer. How could Joss not get an Emmy for these genius developments?!?

Quote

Well, in their eponymous episode, we see that the Initiative has technology that allows them to scan for body temperatures and thus differentiate between humans and non-humans; of all the likely impossibilities in the design of the Sodding Chip (a product of SodCorp™), I can handwave that the chip is similarly temperature-aware.  So I'm reasonably cool with that part.

Why would your average demon be cold blooded, though?

Edited June 8, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[Halting Hex]

2 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Xander summons a freaking demon, so there will be some music and dancing?

When you put it this way, it's really laughable, isn't it?  I mean, it's not as if Sunnydale has a club where Xander and his pals have gone to hear (rather famous independent) bands and dance for years, now, is it?  The same club that Dawn was at last episode, the same one that Buffy will be at next episode?  

Geez, Xan, chill with the demon-summoning and go enjoy Michelle Branch;  the version of "Goodbye to You" she's doing at the Bronze isn't the one on the album, so she's keeping it nice and fresh.  Beats the f out of random people on the street singing about mustard stains.

[Halting Hex]

Thinking more about That Stupid Musical Episode, I don't know if we can let Xander (or Dawn, if she's the real culprit) off the hook so easily.  I mean, he's aware that a supernatural menace exists before anybody dies; the first victim doesn't burn to death until after Xander has "intentionally misled" the Scoobs in "I've Got a Theory" ("It could be witches, some evil witches", etc.…).  Seems to me that counts as "depraved indifference" homicide (ie, he's more concerned about keeping his secret than saving lives), which was Murder in the 2nd Degree under New York law, per Law & Order.  (Don't know if the law is different in California, I admit.)

And then, even after he's told that the spell has resulted in multiple* deaths (early in Act II, after "I"ll Never Tell"), Xander still keeps his involvement a secret. Very bad, indeed.

*—Giles says he was able to examine "one of the" bodies, implying multiple deaths.

Of course, Xander is hardly the only Scoob to get his character assassinated in the episode.  I mean, this is the ep where Willow blows off research for a nooner.  I said, Willow blows off research…the hell??

And Giles not only insists on sending Buffy off to face Sweet alone (which would have resulted in her death), but he completely gets her problem wrong, thinking that Buffy's iss-yew is that she's become dependent on him, when in fact she's feeling far too detached. That's pretty much a swing and whiff there, Rupert.  How long have you known Buffy, again?

(And why are we discussing Buffy's psychological baggage, anyhow?  I thought her problem was physical, that she didn't know how to live in this "harsh and bright" world after the perfect calm of Heeeeeeeeeaven?  Nice moving the goal posts there, Jossie.)

As for Little Miss Ego herself, she uses Giles telling everyone else to let her go alone as an excuse for this unbelievably snotty line in "Walk Through the Fire": 

Quote

So one by one they turn from me

I guess my friends can't face the cold

Erm, hello? It was clearly spelled out in the previous scene that it was only Giles who had the "bloody brilliant" idea to send Buffy alone; Willow and Xander and even Anya and even fucking Spike all object to Rupert's stupid plan.  But Bitchy decides to slur them all…"one by one".  Grrr.

So all four of our leads are way out of character in this stupid episode.  The good news is that the four secondary characters are in character:  Dawn is whiny, Anya is selfish, Spike is both whiny and selfish, and Tara is self-righteous and judgmental (singing of her "disgust" and declaring that she's going to leave Willow without even giving Will a chance to talk out their issues).  But since I don't particularly care for those four (as seen from my descriptions), I'd say the consitency shown there hardly excuses the hatchet job done on B/W/X/G.

(Seriously, Willow blows off research for a nooner??  I think I believe the "Xander summons demons because he loves dancing SO MUCH" more readily.  Oy.)

Edited June 11, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

And Giles not only insists on sending Buffy off to face Sweet alone (which would have resulted in her death), but he completely gets her problem wrong, thinking that Buffy's iss-yew is that she's become dependent on him, when in fact she's feeling far too detached. That's pretty much a swing and whiff there, Rupert. 

But he changed his mind two minutes later. This should count for something. Right?

Quote

When you put it this way, it's really laughable, isn't it?  I mean, it's not as if Sunnydale has a club where Xander and his pals have gone to hear (rather famous independent) bands and dance for years, now, is it?  The same club that Dawn was at last episode, the same one that Buffy will be at next episode?  

Geez, Xan, chill with the demon-summoning and go enjoy Michelle Branch;  the version of "Goodbye to You" she's doing at the Bronze isn't the one on the album, so she's keeping it nice and fresh.  Beats the f out of random people on the street singing about mustard stains.

Yes, would it have been so hard to have Sweet be described as, I don't know, a demon Xander would have an actual reason to summon? Say a seer who can tell him if he should marry Anya? Something actually tempting, not something he could get simply by going to the Bronze or turning on the TV. Lazy, character assassinating writing but it was a "shocking" twist and that's all that mattered to Joss.

[Joe Hellandback]

11 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

But he changed his mind two minutes later. This should count for something. Right?

Yes, would it have been so hard to have Sweet be described as, I don't know, a demon Xander would have an actual reason to summon? Say a seer who can tell him if he should marry Anya? Something actually tempting, not something he could get simply by going to the Bronze or turning on the TV. Lazy, character assassinating writing but it was a "shocking" twist and that's all that mattered to Joss.

I thought it was a nice touch, it shows they're all fallible

[Perfect Xero]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I thought it was a nice touch, it shows they're all fallible

It's completely meaningless as a flaw or fallibility because no one on the show actually cares or even remembers by the end of the episode. Unless the fallibility is supposed to be showing us that all of our heroes are so self centered that they don't care at all about innocent lives being lost as a result of their actions.

[Joe Hellandback]

9 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

It's completely meaningless as a flaw or fallibility because no one on the show actually cares or even remembers by the end of the episode. Unless the fallibility is supposed to be showing us that all of our heroes are so self centered that they don't care at all about innocent lives being lost as a result of their actions.

But every Scoob has screwed up and got people killed in their time, they care but they can't go to pieces every time, who would fight the vamps?

[Jack Shaftoe]

The Scooby Gang wasn't a bunch of murderers until Joss decided that having unrepentant serial killers in it was a splendid idea. And considering how they acted when Buffy wanted to kill Faith (if necessary) or when it was suggested that they kill Ben, I don't think we can claim "well, they are used to it". Nobody cared about Xander's actions directly causing deaths because Joss was long past caring for the victims of the week. It's extremely easy to have fallible characters who nevertheless are not murderers or least guilty of manslaughter. It's not like the Scoobs were some paragons of unachievable virtue until Joss decided that killing people was not so bad after all. Compare and contrast Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered  and OMWF - both episodes have Xander doing something really stupid which has unforeseen consequences. But in one he immediately owns up once he realizes what's going on and is horrified by the idea that people might be hurt as a result of his actions. In the other he is completely unfazed and only admits guilt at the very end and both he and his friends couldn't care less about the victims of his actions. Also, in B, B and B, his decision to cast a spell on Cordelia, while terrible, is at least understandable. He is hurt by her dumping him, he is a teenager, she is his first ever girlfriend, etc. In OMWF, he summons the demon because the script says so.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[Joe Hellandback]

19 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

The Scooby Gang wasn't a bunch of murderers until Joss decided that having unrepentant serial killers in it was a splendid idea. And considering how they acted when Buffy wanted to kill Faith (if necessary) or when it was suggested that they kill Ben, I don't think we can claim "well, they are used to it". Nobody cared about Xander's actions directly causing deaths because Joss was long past caring for the victims of the week. It's extremely easy to have fallible characters who nevertheless are not murderers or least guilty of manslaughter. It's not like the Scoobs were some paragons of unachievable virtue until Joss decided that killing people was not so bad after all. Compare and contrast Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered  and OMWF - both episodes have Xander doing something really stupid which has unforeseen consequences. But in one he immediately owns up once he realizes what's going on and is horrified by the idea that people might be hurt as a result of his actions. In the other he is completely unfazed and only admits guilt at the very end and both he and his friends couldn't care less about the victims of his actions. Also, in B, B and B, his decision to cast a spell on Cordelia, while terrible, is at least understandable. He is hurt by her dumping him, he is a teenager, she is his first ever girlfriend, etc. In OMWF, he summons the demon because the script says so.

 

No, I can understand more his actions in OMWF, he was nervous about the wedding and it was a big decision for both him and for the sake of Anya whom he loves. It's just unfortunate that they live in Sunnydale where such temptations are available, Willow's misuse of magic, Dawn trying to bring Joyce back, Giles believing it is Jenny in IOHEFY, Willow and Anya releasing the troll, Tara almost getting everyone killed by her demon disguising spell, Buffy running away from her calling between 2/3 (how many people died in the meantime? Or when she lets Spike go, twice!).

Edited June 13, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Jack Shaftoe]

How exactly does summoning a musical demon helps with pre-wedding nervousness? I would understand if some ten year who doesn't old understand that demons are dangerous would summon such a demon but Xander has plenty of experience with such things and should have known better.

Then again, he wanted to marry an unrepentant serial killer, so being suicidal stupid was sadly an element of his characterization at that point...

[Halting Hex]

To be fair, is it specified that Xander knew he was summoning a demon, specifically?  Perhaps he just thought he was creating some sort of musical Fantasia, where the songs and dancing manifested on their own.  I'd check the transcript to see, but to quote Spike, "I'm paralyzed by not caring very much."

On 6/13/2018 at 1:28 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

I can understand more his actions in OMWF, he was nervous about the wedding and it was a big decision for both him and for the sake of Anya whom he loves. I

Then you'd think that he'd want to keep things as simple as possible.  (He avoids browsing the bridal mags with Anya in Smashed and he spends As You Were telling her not to sweat the details so much.)

And while Xander enjoys dancing, it's canon, since at least Angel, that he's not very good at it.  So, rather an odd choice, I'd think.  Even if X has somehow lost the post-BB&B aversion to random spells that he displays in Lovers Walk.

[Joe Hellandback]

8 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

The Xander twist in the musical episode makes no sense and it's lame that Joss didn't come up with a better reason for why the demon was summoned. Then overplaying his plot hole in the episode as a joke was also fairly dumb. It would have been a funnier twist if it had been the Mustard man who summoned the demon or if there had been a different solution to the problem.

I liked that because I was sick of Dawn always needing to be rescued, nice to see that a more capable Scooby can also screw up. 

[Perfect Xero]

17 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I liked that because I was sick of Dawn always needing to be rescued, nice to see that a more capable Scooby can also screw up. 

Dawn is still the one who has to be rescued in the episode though, and it's because she screwed up and stole the necklace that was used to summon Sweet, so I'm not sure how Xander being the one responsible for the actual summoning changes anything on that score.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎16‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 4:30 AM, Perfect Xero said:

Dawn is still the one who has to be rescued in the episode though, and it's because she screwed up and stole the necklace that was used to summon Sweet, so I'm not sure how Xander being the one responsible for the actual summoning changes anything on that score.

But she didn't realise its' significance? Xander had that knowledge. 

[lembergwatcher]

So, here are some unpopular opinions from me.

1. I was always two thumbs up for Xander and Willow ending up together. I know I belong to a tiny minority on this issue, but IMO they could be really good as a couple - in ordinary, human way. Futhermore I prefer two of my favorite characters getting together post-high school and even post-Sunnydale, when they're more mature, less naive and have learned the hard way. Their long history of being in each other's lives and deep knowledge of each other's stronger and weaker sides, their ability to overcome odds and to forgive could lay some solid foundation for lasting relationship. Of course, this relationship wouldn't be as fluffy as Willow's romances with Oz and Tara were, or as hilarious as Xander's affairs with Cordy and Anya, but I dare say Willow/Xander arc had some sort of potential which unfortunatelly was wasted due to Whedon's infinite wisdom. Both the Witch and the Carpenter screwed up their chances with one another and it did neither of them good. Say what you will, but NONE of their relationships lasted too long or ended well.

I hated the way things turned out between the two of them in S.03. First and foremost I'm not THAT dumb to believe their small affair (why couldn't 'fluke' last for more than four episodes???) was all because of formal wear. As if there were no signs of Willow's crush on her best male friend in earlier seasons, no signs that W & X really did care for one another and no Xander's admission in "Becoming Pt. 2". Even Willow's coming-out in the later seasons was not really an obstacle for W/X. After all, it's Buffyverse, where literally EVERYTHING, every freaking thing is possible. If it was possible (and perfectly OK) for quite straight Willow to end up gay, why couldn't it be vice versa later? It was pretty much OK for most of the fandom when the Slayer literally ended up sleeping with the enemy, what's so odd 'bout lesbian girl once again falling for her male best friend? And why LOVE always should be about sexuality first and foremost? The problems with consummating their love didn't stop Buffy and Angel from starting an affair in S.03, why should it be the issue between gay Willow and non-gay Xander? At least their physical intimacy would never lead to deadly consequences, in a way Bangel's 'perfect happiness' did.

Relationships have to be built on love, not the lust. IMO, the ending of S.06's 'Grave' continues to be the strongest manifestation of love (not in "I'm-in-love-with-you-way"), but in the broader sense of word. LOVE, pure and unconditional, the reminder of what TRUE love should be... Xander on the Bluff, knowing full well he'd never stand a chance against Uber-Wicca, having no superpowers and special abilities, yet still being there for his best friend and succeeding in bringing her back... After Xander's willingness to sacrifice himself for Willow, all those later cheesy attempts of making Kennedy look like redhead's real soulmate are nothing but a joke.

Therefore I really do not understand the reason why despite everything we know about Buffyverse and its thin line between life and fantasy, possible and impossible, pairing Willow and Xander is still fiercely regarded as the 'no-go zone'... 

2. I have a firm belief that Giles and Anya could be really interesting and entertaining couple instead of Anya and Xander. Anya, who was much-much older than her male partner, deserved someone more mature and experienced - therefore Giles might be quite a good choice in this regard. At least he won't screw up that bad with ex-demon. There could be some chemistry between two of them. 'Tabula Rasa' only cemented my opinion on the issue.

3. There are times I wish Willow and Xander both ended up dead on Kingman's Bluff (Xander dying in an attempt to stop his best friend from making the worst mistake ever and Willow following him, because she couldn't live with herself knowing she was responsible for taking carpenter's life). Remembering S.07, there are moments I prefer Buffy's two slayerettes leaving this world on a higher note, averting apocalypse, instead of being treated like shit in series' final season, watching Buffy choosing her former nemesis and attempted rapist over people who stood by her side for seven years. Also Xander's and Willow's demise in the S.06 finale could be viewed as a payback for violating the rules and crossing the lines while bringing Buffy back and thus unleashing the First Evil.

4. In S.07 Willow, Xander and Anya should have been the primary targets of First's cunning attacks, since it was THEIR combined effort at the beginning of the previous season that shattered the balance in the mystical world and enabled the First's killing spree. What did the First Evil have to do with Spikey, who wasn't even there when the Scoobies resurrected the Slayer, I still can't understand... The issue of their responsibility for the wrongdoing ("blood on the hands") was brought up briefly first in S.06's 'After Life' and then in S.07's 'Showtime' with no further consequences for the threesome.

[Halting Hex]

On 8/14/2018 at 7:28 AM, lembergwatcher said:

After all, it's Buffyverse, where literally EVERYTHING, every freaking thing is possible.

A long and lovely and passionate piece, which I'll probably say more about later.  But WRT Willow's sexuality not being an obstacle for W/X, I'll just point out that even in our universe there's such a thing a bisexuality.  No supernatural mojo required.

I'm not so sure about wanting W/X dead on Kingman's Bluff, though.  I'm more in the "just leave town" camp.  Like the time I joked about it in the old "corrupt a Wish" thread on TWoP where as everything goes to hell in Sunnydale, Willow transfers out to Oxford, takes Xander to be her butler, and "they have wacky adventures involving scones".

Or, to quote an exceedingly-bitter exchange I had with another poster on a Buffy/Willow 'shipping list after Villains aired:

Quote

OTHER POSTER:  Sometimes I just want Willow to get out.  Go far away, finish her degree, and never look back.

ME:  Ah, but "It's a good fight, Buffy, and I want in."  Herewith the rewards of friendship and love.

OTHER POSTER:  Yeah, well, it's clearly not a good fight for you, Willow.

(Yes, I remember this exchange, 16 years later, primarily because I'm proud of throwing in that "herewith", it's true.)

Really, it's rather depressing to think that Joss ended up making a prophet out of Hyena!Xander.  Their lives really were better before Buffy came to town.  I mean, it's one thing for Buffy to nail the problems with dating Angel even before she knows about the fangs ("he's never around, and when he is, all he wants to do is talk about vampires"), but that's enough foreshadowing for The Pack, IMO.

And once again, I go with "Sigh". Sigh.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Halting Hex

[illdoc]

9 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

5.) I would have liked to see Dawn date or have her on her own Scooby Gang adventure for an episode in season seven.

I think I read somewhere that the direction they would have gone for season eight (before SMG suddenly announced that season seven was the last one) was that it (S8) would have focused on Dawn (& Kit & Carlos--the ones in the S7 premiere). If so, then there would have been "Dawn & her gang" episodes during S7 (setting up S8).

[lembergwatcher]

9 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

 

1.) I was a Xander/Willow shipper until they paired Xander up with Cordelia and Oz entered the picture. I loved their cute little scene at the beginning of When She Was Bad. But ultimately I am happy that nothing really developed between them, it was more surprising and more interesting to see them grow rather than have Willow hold on to a childhood crush. That being said, I disliked the short-lived sexual attraction storyline that they put into the show to break Xander up with Cordelia and have her move to LA. I think they could have found a better way to free Cordelia up to move over to the spin-off.

 

2.) I loved their chemistry in "Tabula Rasa", but I actually would have preferred to see Giles date someone around his age (she's still got the emotional maturity of a teenager even if she is a thousand year old ex-demon) and I think ultimately, he was too annoyed by her for a relationship between them to make sense.

 

3.) If Willow and Xander had died, it would have been fairly hard to lighten up the mood for season seven, which was their original mission statement for the final season. I think Xander actually got some really fine moments in the final season. Willow on the other hand....it was sad to see her become such a shell of her former self, whiny and mopey, without the joy that she exhibited before. I didn't mind Kennedy, but Willow's overall angsty and no-fun attitude in season seven was tough to watch.

 

4.) I think it makes sense for Spike to be targeted, because 1.) he is a strong fighter, 2.) he was fairly vulnerable with having his soul gotten back and everything and of course 3.) the First had already tried to convince Angel to kill himself because his ensouled status was seen as a threat.  That being said, I feel like the First Evil could have manipulated the Scooby Gang more in general. It could assume the looks of Buffy and could have really turned them all against her, so that her being thrown out of the house at the end of the season, would have made much more sense. The First Evil could have also appeared as Kendra to torment Buffy with the slayer's mortal fate, which would have been fun.

 

5.) I would have liked to see Dawn date or have her on her own Scooby Gang adventure for an episode in season seven.

 

6.) I didn't really care about Buffy and Angel as a couple after "I Will Remember You". I think their relationship was resolved and there was nowhere to go with it anymore, is I found the subtle hints in Chosen that they might get back together when Buffy is done baking pretty lame. Same with Spike, I think their relationship pretty much ended with their death and that there was no need to reheat it. So whenever the love triangle aspects were played up (especially in Angel's final season with The Girl in Question), I rolled my eyes. I kind of just wanted Buffy to move on and find someone new. When people talk about whether Buffy should be with Angel or Spike, I am generally just like "why should she ultimately end up with her abusive highschool/college boyfriends?"

1) I can see your point here, but the thing is I actually dislike Oz or Cordelia. Cordelia - well... for many reasons, but mostly for constantly humiliating Xander, bringing his home situation into public domain and calling him "useless part of the group" ("The Zeppo") fit only for bringing donuts... Yes, she had lots of reasons to be mad at  him, but at least she should have decency to give him credit for saving her life ("Some Assembly Required"). As for Oz he always annoyed me with his pseudo-cool demeanor and the way writers did everything to make him look better and cooler than Xander no matter what. He could do literally nothing, say one or two sentences for the whole episode or just play the guitar and everyone around would swoon in delight and consider him a better choice for Willow. The truth is that Xander had never been less determined to save/protect Willow - despite all the "no-touching rules", "Xander is in the past" and Willow's other attempts to throw her friendship with Xander under the bus in order to please Mr. Perfect Gentleman. Oz's of the world will always have the upper hand over Xanders. I just thought that  in Buffyverse it could be otherwise.

3) You are totally right about Willow, but given what she's been throuhg, sense of guilt and Buffy's shitty attitude... it's hardly a surprise she was that way;

4) Yes, Spike was a stronger fighter, but W & X supposed to be Buffy's best friends, the ones she had history with and some sort of emotional attachment. It had to be a much more devastating blow for the Slayer if both of them got killed, went insane or commited suicide. But because by the end of the series Buffy's emotional connection with her two original slayerettes was dead and gone, the First decided to go for Spike. Though facing the incorporeal entity like the First made many of the blonde vamp's fighting skills less significant. Plus Turok-Han could easily beat the shit out of Spike considering their encounters in the series...;

5) Same with me :-)

[lembergwatcher]

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

A long and lovely and passionate piece, which I'll probably say more about later.  But WRT Willow's sexuality not being an obstacle for W/X, I'll just point out that even in our universe there's such a thing a bisexuality.  No supernatural mojo required.

I'm not so sure about wanting W/X dead on Kingman's Bluff, though.  I'm more in the "just leave town" camp.  Like the time I joked about it in the old "corrupt a Wish" thread on TWoP where as everything goes to hell in Sunnydale, Willow transfers out to Oxford, takes Xander to be her butler, and "they have wacky adventures involving scones".

 

 

Thanx :-) I agree with the whole bisexuality thing. It's just many in the fandom strongly believe something like that can't exist in the Buffyverse. Because Willow's sexuality is one of the reasons mostly mentioned as a a point against any W/X arc post-Chosen. By the way, the whole "leaving town" concept could be quite an entertaining alternative.

Overall the show lacked some X/W-centric episode as well as some flashbacks into pre-Buffy years. Their history together was one of the most amazing things in the Buffyverse and the writers could give this one episode about Xander, Willow, their friendship and other issues regarding both Slayerettes a try. Truly the show won't lose a thing with one (just one) X/W-centric and one less Spike-centric episode... Unfortunately first it was "impossible" because of Cordy and Oz, and later the writers were scared to somehow tarnish Willow's lesbian street cred...

Edited August 16, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

15 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

[Oz] could do literally nothing, say one or two sentences for the whole episode or just play the guitar and everyone around would swoon in delight and consider him a better choice for Willow.

I used to attempt to write fanfic (not well) and I never really had Oz's "voice", so my rule for him was that he could say no more than two words at any given time.

"Like this?"  Yes, exactly.  Thank you, Wolf Boy.  "No problem."

(Yes, that's basically a riff on the X/O scene in The Zeppo, I'm aware.)

15 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

The truth is that Xander had never been less determined to save/protect Willow

I will never not adore the cut scene I cited in the Surprise thread, where Xander objects to Willow going on a date with Oz:

Quote

WILLOW:  He's not just some stranger.  He's a friend.  He took a bullet for me.

XANDER:  So?  I would have taken a bullet, too.  Nobody offered me one.

Aww.  Although put this together with Xander's claim that he would be willing to get slashed in the ribs to impress a girl (Angel) and you have to worry about his constant disregard for his physical safety.  No wonder he doesn't like being "fray-adjacent".

Edited August 16, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

The problem with Buffy the Vampire Slayer is that while it was great at portraying friendship, it (mostly) sucked when it came to love/relationships. The moment the writers decided to shift their focus from friendship between the Scooby Gang's core members to the said members' relationships with their significant others (incl. the introduction of a number of characters whose sole aim seemed to be playing the roles of Buffy's boyfriend, Xander's girlfriend, Willow's boyfriend/girlfriend) was IMO the true beginning of the series' slow decline.

Due to the show's complicated love stories, the interactions between Buffy's protagonists - probably the key element that made us fall in love with the show at the beginning - became more and more scarce with each passing season. I could care less aboout sugary Willow/Tara, wretched Xander/Anya or terrible Buffy/Spike, bring me back my Scooby Gang (B/W/X to be precise) in all its glory, ffs!

Almost every canon relationship sucks in one way or another. The only canon Buffyverse couple I like and root for is... Fred/Gunn. But Joss, due to his infinite wisdom, decided it was better for Fred to be with Wesley the Back Stabbing Asshole and for Gunn to de facto sell his soul for the dubious benefits of being "not just the muscle" of the Fang Gang (in the Buffyverse being "the Zeppo" has its benefits too, Charles). 

So, the vast majority of Buffyverse relationships truly suck. And I say so not just because Whedon broke my one favorite couple (Gunn/Fred) or didn't give a chance to the other (Xander/Willow). The question is: can a good thing come out of something built upon misconceptions, half-truths, outright lies or magical interference? The answer is: hell NO! 

• Would it make a difference if Buffy knew the back-story of her salvation in Prophecy Girl (Xander bringing Angel along with him into Master's lair and not vice versa)? Does anyone really believe Angel told her like it was? I don't. I won't be surprised if Buffy sincerely believed Angel came to her rescue with Xander just along for the ride seven years later, as of End of Days/Chosen;
• If Willow knew the whole truth about her salvation in Becoming, Part 2 , would Amends happen? Would she be so desperate to earn Wolfboy's forgiveness? Does anyone believe Oz confessed it wasn't him who said "I love you" and thus brought Will back to the land of the living after being asked about the whole thing (I don't believe for a second W/O never covered that subject)? Why on earth couldn't Xander tell Willow the truth during the so-called "Fluke"???;
• Would Xanya even happen (or would its corpse continue to rot for so long post-Hell's Bells) if Xander found out Anya came to him just for cheap sex in The Harsh Light of Day (her own admission in Entropy)?;
• I can't understand lack of Willow's reaction after the truth about Tara withholding the important information regarding her supposed demonhood (even if it turned out to be just a family legend) throughout nearly a year of them dating came to light. People might point their fingers at "The Lie" from Becoming, Part 2 and "no consequences" for Xander either (some people think helping to save the world deserves punishment, not praise), although Xander and Buffy have never been in any romantic relationship... It never ceases to amaze me how fans go ballistic because Xander somehow twisted Willow's words, but are mostly OK with the fact that the whole truth regarding saving B & W (Prophecy Girl, Becoming, Part 2) and Xander's role in both cases wasn't disclosed too;
• Finally, Wesley/Fred in AtS season 5 is in some way a direct result of a mind rape commited by Captain Forehead (I despise you for many things, Deadboy, but that was one of the worst). Brainwashed Fred probably thinks "it has always been" Wes. Does she even remember herself and Gunn dating in S.03/04? True, one might argue F/G began partly due to small misunderstanding/fluke (Cordy thinks Fred means Wesley after the other girl approaches her in Waiting in the Wings and gives her blessing), but that's still different from a banal mindfuck.

And last but not least, Xander-bashers have a tendency to always ignore one simple fact: withholding some crucial information/lying through the teeth (like I said: I refuse to belive Buffy & Angel never talked about the events in Master's sewers or Willow didn't want to thank her "perfect" boyfriend for saving her life) helps Angel/Oz get the hottest girls in the 'Verse, while Xander's "lie" gives him absolutely nothing in terms of personal gain.

Edited December 1, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

On 12/1/2019 at 9:57 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Would it make a difference if Buffy knew the back-story of her salvation in Prophecy Girl (Xander bringing Angel along with him into Master's lair and not vice versa)? Does anyone really believe Angel told her like it was? I don't. I won't be surprised if Buffy sincerely believed Angel came to her rescue with Xander just along for the ride seven years later, as of End of Days/Chosen;

Still in lurk mode, but I can hardly let this pass.  

Buffy knows.  She knows she owes Xander her life, that's how she taunts him with her ungiven thanks during the Bitch of the Year dance in When She Was Bad. ("Xander, did I ever thank you for saving my life?" "No."  "Don't you wish I would?")  And she ultimately gives it to him at the end of Inca Mummy Girl. ("I had you to bring me back.")

As for which of the boys brought the other one along, I'm sure Willow told Buffy about Xander leaving the conference in the Library to go seek help.  (Perhaps she was amused by/adoring of "Calm may work for Locutus of the Borg here, but I'm freaked out and I intend to stay that way.")  And why would Angel seek out Xander for help, anyhow?  I mean, for starters, does Angel even know where Xander lives?

(For that matter, does Buffy know the way to Casa Harris?  We know that Willow visits the Harrises [she goes with him to dinner at his place during Out of Mind, Out of Sight; she fetches him from his room behind the scenes in Prophecy Girl; she turns up in his bed in BB&B] but even if Angel had decided to take Xander as "back-up" in PG, he'd better know how to read a phone book [and know Tony Harris's first name, because there's probably several "Harris" listings in there].  Because if he asks Buffy where X marks his spot, he might not get anything better than "somewhere near Willow's, over by the school" out of her.)

On 12/1/2019 at 9:57 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Would Xanya even happen (or would its corpse continue to rot for so long post-Hell's Bells) if Xander found out Anya came to him just for cheap sex in The Harsh Light of Day (her own admission in Entropy)?

She pretty spells it out at the moment of "seduction", saying that she's only interested in sex because she wants to get rid of their feelings for each other.  Put it behind them, metaphorically.  (Even if she is "thinking face-to-face for the actual event".)  It was her later attachment/possessiveness that took him by surprise; "no strings attached" is what he was signing up for in the first place.

(OT:  Seriously…Frunn???  "Fred and Gunn kiss, and their lack of chemistry actually douses nearby fires", to quote the TWoP recap of Loyalty.  [Although the recapper later realized he was stealing from his own recap of From Justin to Kelly.]

I mean, it's possible I hate Frunn because Double or Nothing is so goddamn terrible [A TRUCK???], but I think it's just as likely that the "pancake kisses" and the sappy crap are as big a contributor to that episode's suckitude as the "cuddly old demon couple" or the stupid resolution.  I can't think of that pairing's insipid blandness without cringing.  I'll take the Wes/Fred scene in the tag of Billy over every Frunn frame ever, combined.  JMO.

About the only benefit was that it was the seed for some quality Wesley-angst:

Quote

GUNN (annoyed at Wesley trying to "advise" him on how to treat Fred):  What are you, her brother?

WESLEY (utterly heartbroken):  Apparently. 

—Loyalty

And thus Wesley's isolation was the spur to the brilliance of Sleep Tight.  

Quote

GUNN (stunned by Wesley's coldness):  What happened to you, man?

WESLEY (icy):  I got my throat slashed and all my friends abandoned me.

—Spin the Bottle

Hot dang, did Strega (who hated Wesley) totally lose her water over that one.  Good times, good times. 😈

On 12/1/2019 at 9:57 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Does [Fred] even remember herself and Gunn dating in S.03/04?

Since the mind-wipe was to erase Conner from their memories, specifically, Fred's recall of 3.13 through 3.19 should be intact, I'd think.  Burbling mewling at "Charles" and all. But JMO.)

Okay, later.  (I'd say something UK-specific about tomorrow, but that would just stir my "friends" to further [infuriatingly condescending and other redacted adjectives] action, so…nope.)

Edited December 13, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

11 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Buffy knows.

Oh, Halting Hex, I'm glad you're back 😀. And yes, I know she knows. My question is whether she knows the whole truth. Because the whole truth matters and can change a few things.

11 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I'm sure Willow told Buffy about Xander leaving the conference in the Library to go seek help

Yes, but Willow wasn't there (I mean, at Angel's). Xander leaving the SHS Library searching for help is still not a direct proof (even though Buffy is able to add two and two, and understands Angel would never "seek out Xander for help"). Also I doubt Willow would've risked saying anything that could potentially change Buffy's mind regarding both girls' Xander-shaped friend and make her reciprocate the guy's feelings (back than, at least).

OK, let's try again: does Buffy know non-superpowered Xander had to intimidate Forehead Almighty to make him show the way to the Master's lair? That's a thing only two characters know about. Knowing Buffy, I'm 100% sure she would've believed anything Angel had to say more willingly. And that's a big deal, I'd say (at least from Buffy's POV. Or it should be). Btw, isn't a mere fact that Xander, a guy with zero superpowers, showed an ability to gain the upper hand against much stronger opponents (Angel in Prophecy Girl and Killed by Death, Jack in The Zeppo) without resorting to physical violence, just another proof of Xander's brilliance? And neither Buffy nor Willow were present at the scene every time, because Joss forbid they would look at Xander from a different angle. Angel, on the contrary, could win mostly due to his superior physical strength (School Hard, BB & B, Enemies). Like wimps and losers do.

11 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

She pretty spells it out at the moment of "seduction", saying that she's only interested in sex because she wants to get rid of their feelings for each other.  Put it behind them, metaphorically.

An interesting way to "get rid of feelings", I must say. My theory is that Xander wasn't in his right mind thrughout most of the season 4 (and the subsequent seasons too). Because Xander in his right mind would never have thought about touching someone like Anya. As much as I dislike Cordelia & Xordelia, Queen C. was much better choice for groping sessions (if Xander had sex with Cordy in the janitor's closet back in old SHS, it would annoy me much less than him fucking Anya at the basement of debasement). Xander in his right mind would've been by Willow's side when she needed it after Oz-Veruca deal, instead of playing John Rambo with old fart Giles. Sometimes I think the good Xander, the one some of us started to like in the earlier seasons, lost his life fighting the Mayor in 3.22 and was replaced with some doppelganger...

11 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

OT:  Seriously…Frunn???

Yes, absolutely. I can even turn a blind eye on lack of chemistry or whatever. Because all the other "canon" chemistry-filled Buffyverse couples (except Giles/Jenny probably) make me sick. I do like Fred. And I like Gunn way-way more than that back-stabbing asshole Wyndham-Pryce. Fred and Wesley?.. Wesley who? Just the way Wes looks at Fred sometimes (like some old creepy pedophile gazes devouringly at virgin schoolgirls) makes me wanna punch him (several times). Wesley/Fred remind me of Willow/Oz and... I think I'll stop right here because I don't want to start a looooong rant.

11 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

WESLEY (icy):  I got my throat slashed and all my friends abandoned me.

Mr. Wyndham-Angst should've been thankful Gunn & Fred intervened and didn't let Angel finish what he's started in Forgiving. And let us not forget Wesley slept with Lilah. Poor Xander had to deal with average-looking and extremely annoying Anya, but Wesley's partner was one of the hottest babes in the 'Verse. There was no danger of Wesley remaining single even if Whedon & Co allowed Fred/Gunn to continue their non-chemical relationship in the two final seasons. JMO, of course.

Edited December 12, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[lembergwatcher]

1) I absolutely resent the Scoobs' decision to spare Vamp!Willow and send her back into the world where she (not her victims) "stand a chance" instead of doing the right thing and just dusting her. Why on earth does the survival of a demonic creature have to be their concern? Is it just naivete or suicidal stupidity? Even though everyone knows she's not Willow and the two have a big nothing in common the Scoobs decide to release her into the wild. Why? Because Vamp!Willow physically resembles "the finest of all of them"? Or people's lives in paralell dimensions mean much less to our supposed champions of humanity? One unstaked vamp = more dead people. So, what's the hell?

2) Buffy should've gone to jail along with Faith. At least after the latter confessed to her crimes in Sanctuary. Well, she should have according to Penal Code. Why was Faith supposed to cover for the other Slayer? That's a thing I'll never understand. Yes, Buffy didn't kill anybody unlike her little slayin' sis, but breaking into Meyer Sports and Tackle or resisting arrest (Bad Girls) was the girls' mutual responsibility. Just like false testimony in the exact same episode. Robbery, violence against police officers or perjury are still punishable by law, aren't they? So why does Faith have to spend almost four years behind bars while her partner in crime is all "guilty as hell, free as a bird"? The whole deal with robbery /escaping arrest makes Buffy look even more hypocritical (and stupid) in Consequences. Yeah, Faith must turn herself in and face consequences for her actions, but Buffy's own actions should remain consequences-free.

3) We may hate the old Watchers Council as much as we want but it appears it was their influence that prevented Buffy & the gang's years-long incarceration. Since Sunnydale's Hellmouth was the biggest and apparently most dangerous I doubt the only force Council had at the scene consisted of one unstable teenage girl with myriad of issues and her Watcher whose loyalty and professionalism proved to be questionable time and time again. I believe the WC had more agents in Sunnydale. They had their people among the staff members of the Sunnydale High and Sunnydale Memorial (it turned out to be completely true with the latter in This Year's Girl), at the local police department (and that's why Buffy and her friends never faced consequences for ocassionally breaking the law) and among the town's demonic communuity (I have a theory Willy was the Council's man). Despite being true rat bastards the Councilmen did their job pretty good when it came to avoiding jail terms for Buffy when she deserved it.

[Halting Hex]

On 12/13/2019 at 7:51 AM, lembergwatcher said:

So why does Faith have to spend almost four years behind bars while her partner in crime is all "guilty as hell, free as a bird"?

Probably those pesky murders, I'm thinking.  And Allan is at least manslaughter, for that matter.  Buffy's on the hook for B&E, attempted robbery (she never leaves the store with goods in her possession), and assaulting an officer, but the police didn't have any real leads and there's bigger problems to solve in the 'Dale (for example, somebody stabbing the Deputy Mayor to death…), so it's not surprising the SPD never went into full Slayer-Hunt mode.

However, given that Buffy matches the description and Det. Stein's dealt with her twice before, it's surprising he doesn't have radio car officers try to make an identification.  Even granting that there are plenty of reasons why two "blossoming young girl(s)" might have had other things on their mind than what was on the TV, I'd think the cops got a good enough look to land her in some trouble.  So that is a plot hole.

[lembergwatcher]

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

but the police didn't have any real leads

Yes, they didn't. Weren't they supposed to get some after Faith turned herself in a year later? I mean, if Faith decided to come clean and tell everything , she should've mentioned the accomplice in two of her crimes too. Why should Faith take all the blame if she could have B behind bars as well?

[whiporee]

Unpopular opinions:

1) I think the show wussed out on its mythology with the definition of vampirism. The idea that a demon takes over your body, so it's not really you doing stuff is a total cop-out. I think the show displays a different definition -- that when you get vamped, you lose your conscience and become complete id. If that were the case, then you really ARE the person who does the evil things because there's nothing holding you back. That makes Angel and Spike's re-souling that much more intense, because they don't have anyone/thing else to blame what they actually did on.

2) In the end, Buffy should be with Xander. They've been through enough that no one else will ever know them better, and there's no one they would trust more.

3) I liked Glory, and didn't even mind Claire Kramer that much. Okay, maybe a little. 

[Joe Hellandback]

3 hours ago, whiporee said:

Unpopular opinions:

1) I think the show wussed out on its mythology with the definition of vampirism. The idea that a demon takes over your body, so it's not really you doing stuff is a total cop-out. I think the show displays a different definition -- that when you get vamped, you lose your conscience and become complete id. If that were the case, then you really ARE the person who does the evil things because there's nothing holding you back. That makes Angel and Spike's re-souling that much more intense, because they don't have anyone/thing else to blame what they actually did on.

2) In the end, Buffy should be with Xander. They've been through enough that no one else will ever know them better, and there's no one they would trust more.

3) I liked Glory, and didn't even mind Claire Kramer that much. Okay, maybe a little. 

And that's why Spike and Angel feel guilty, they enjoyed what they did, the demon which took them over was essentially themselves. Believe me plenty of Bander fans out there including me and similarly with Glory, if you'd said Adam that would have been an unpopular opinion.  

[Delphi]

I never buyed into it being a demon taking you over than you becoming a demon yourself.   Like in Doppelgangland when Willow was freaking out and Buffy said that it wasn't Willow, Angel tried to correct her but Buffy shushed him.   Or  in Orpheus,  season 4 of Angel.   That was a total fight between Angel and the demon he became.   

[watcher1006]

On 8/14/2018 at 10:28 AM, lembergwatcher said:

So, here are some unpopular opinions from me.

1. I was always two thumbs up for Xander and Willow ending up together. I know I belong to a tiny minority on this issue, but IMO they could be really good as a couple - in ordinary, human way. Futhermore I prefer two of my favorite characters getting together post-high school and even post-Sunnydale, when they're more mature, less naive and have learned the hard way. Their long history of being in each other's lives and deep knowledge of each other's stronger and weaker sides, their ability to overcome odds and to forgive could lay some solid foundation for lasting relationship. Of course, this relationship wouldn't be as fluffy as Willow's romances with Oz and Tara were, or as hilarious as Xander's affairs with Cordy and Anya, but I dare say Willow/Xander arc had some sort of potential which unfortunatelly was wasted due to Whedon's infinite wisdom. Both the Witch and the Carpenter screwed up their chances with one another and it did neither of them good. Say what you will, but NONE of their relationships lasted too long or ended well.

I hated the way things turned out between the two of them in S.03. First and foremost I'm not THAT dumb to believe their small affair (why couldn't 'fluke' last for more than four episodes???) was all because of formal wear. As if there were no signs of Willow's crush on her best male friend in earlier seasons, no signs that W & X really did care for one another and no Xander's admission in "Becoming Pt. 2". Even Willow's coming-out in the later seasons was not really an obstacle for W/X. After all, it's Buffyverse, where literally EVERYTHING, every freaking thing is possible. If it was possible (and perfectly OK) for quite straight Willow to end up gay, why couldn't it be vice versa later? It was pretty much OK for most of the fandom when the Slayer literally ended up sleeping with the enemy, what's so odd 'bout lesbian girl once again falling for her male best friend? And why LOVE always should be about sexuality first and foremost? The problems with consummating their love didn't stop Buffy and Angel from starting an affair in S.03, why should it be the issue between gay Willow and non-gay Xander? At least their physical intimacy would never lead to deadly consequences, in a way Bangel's 'perfect happiness' did.

I don't automatically reject a relationship between Xander and Willow, my main problem with it in Season 3 is with how it was written following the big betrayal in "Lover's Walk". The writers just turned off the romance between them. Yes, Xander and Willow were horrified at what they had done and wanted to undo it ASAP, but it's not as though such feelings just vanish. Oz delivers two brilliant pieces of dialogue to Willow, the one in "The Wish" about "Leave me alone-you betrayed me-I need to think things out" and then the second in "Amends" about "Here's the thing-I still have feelings for you". Some of the most believable lines in Buffy that people in the real world can relate to. At the least, Xander and Willow should have talked out where they were at with their feelings toward one another and how they would go forward, rather than having their romantic feelings dropped from their relationship.

I'm just a little surprised at the negative comments about S6 "Once More With Feeling" given how popular it was at the time. I was initially wowed and amazed at the whole thing and have grown less enthusiastic about it over time. I suppose that it was an enormous ego trip for Joss Whedon. He spent a prodigious amount of energy on the episode in a season where he'd stepped aside as a primary showrunner. It was a very expensive episode from what I hear and Marti Noxon was left with some budget constraints for doing the rest of the season.

[lembergwatcher]

56 minutes ago, watcher1006 said:

At the least, Xander and Willow should have talked out where they were at with their feelings toward one another and how they would go forward, rather than having their romantic feelings dropped from their relationship.

But apparently writers did not want that to happen. Maybe because they thought spending too much time with non-superpowered "loser" Xander would've tarnished Willow's "cool girl" street creed. The problem with Willow and Xander is that most of their truly big moments (which could have bene defining with any other characters) just go nowhere.

• Xander tells Coma!Willow he loves her in the second season's finale and his confession is what brings the girl back. And then... nothing happens. Xander never mentions it was him and not Oz who said those words by Willow's hospital bed for the remainder of the series;
• The Fluke in the season 3 you mentioned was caused by random hormones and the formal wear (if one starts watching Buffy from the third season I don't think he or she'll figure out Willow was pining for Xander for two previous seasons and Xander admitted his feelings in 2x22). Everything's about Oz/Cordelia/Anya/Tara/Kennedy from now on;
• Xander threatens Buffy in When She Was Bad saying "if they hurt Willow, I'll kill you" (Willow means so much to him he's not afraid taking a risk), and then starts dating Anya who nearly got Willow killed two times in a row. Moreover, Xander is nowhere in sight when Willow is in pain and needs her best friend's support after breaking up with Oz in season 4 (he prefers Giles' and Anya's company for some unknown reason);
• Willow is so hurt after learning about Xander's one night stand with Faith in Consequences she spends Joss knows how much time crying in the toilet. Xander doesn't seem to be proud of himself too. Yet in the very next ep (Doppelgangland) and all the other subsequent episodes both act like nothing's happened at all; 
• Even the most "epic" X/W moment in the series' penultimate season (Grave) turns out to be the big fat zero in the end of the day. Xander doesn't want to leave Willow's side and ready to die either by her hand or during the upcoming Apocalypse... only to act like Willow doesn't exist in the next two episodes. The big Xander/Willow moment on the Bluff which should've been the turning point in their history is pretty much wasted just like all the other moments. After Willow's return from England in 7x03 both she and Xander act like there was no yellow crayon speeches, no "I love yous", no sobs and hugs. Suffice to say there are probably only two Xander/Willow one-on-one scenes in the entire seventh season.

W/X had so much potential, friends or romantic, and yet it was wasted for the sake of some mediocre "canon couples".

[marshmallows]

On a lighter note. I hate OMWF. Yep, there I said it. Musicals suck.

Edited April 23, 2020 by marshmallows

[watcher1006]

5 hours ago, marshmallows said:

On a lighter note. I hate OMWF. Yep, there I said it. Musicals suck.

I used to like OMWF more than I do now. Among other things it was a grand ego trip for Joss Whedon, and from what I understand it crippled the budget for the rest of Season 6.

On 2/17/2020 at 2:17 PM, lembergwatcher said:

But apparently writers did not want that to happen. Maybe because they thought spending too much time with non-superpowered "loser" Xander would've tarnished Willow's "cool girl" street creed. The problem with Willow and Xander is that most of their truly big moments (which could have bene defining with any other characters) just go nowhere.

• Xander tells Coma!Willow he loves her in the second season's finale and his confession is what brings the girl back. And then... nothing happens. Xander never mentions it was him and not Oz who said those words by Willow's hospital bed for the remainder of the series;
• The Fluke in the season 3 you mentioned was caused by random hormones and the formal wear (if one starts watching Buffy from the third season I don't think he or she'll figure out Willow was pining for Xander for two previous seasons and Xander admitted his feelings in 2x22). Everything's about Oz/Cordelia/Anya/Tara/Kennedy from now on;
• Xander threatens Buffy in When She Was Bad saying "if they hurt Willow, I'll kill you" (Willow means so much to him he's not afraid taking a risk), and then starts dating Anya who nearly got Willow killed two times in a row. Moreover, Xander is nowhere in sight when Willow is in pain and needs her best friend's support after breaking up with Oz in season 4 (he prefers Giles' and Anya's company for some unknown reason);
• Willow is so hurt after learning about Xander's one night stand with Faith in Consequences she spends Joss knows how much time crying in the toilet. Xander doesn't seem to be proud of himself too. Yet in the very next ep (Doppelgangland) and all the other subsequent episodes both act like nothing's happened at all; 
• Even the most "epic" X/W moment in the series' penultimate season (Grave) turns out to be the big fat zero in the end of the day. Xander doesn't want to leave Willow's side and ready to die either by her hand or during the upcoming Apocalypse... only to act like Willow doesn't exist in the next two episodes. The big Xander/Willow moment on the Bluff which should've been the turning point in their history is pretty much wasted just like all the other moments. After Willow's return from England in 7x03 both she and Xander act like there was no yellow crayon speeches, no "I love yous", no sobs and hugs. Suffice to say there are probably only two Xander/Willow one-on-one scenes in the entire seventh season.

W/X had so much potential, friends or romantic, and yet it was wasted for the sake of some mediocre "canon couples".

Season 7 had just too many new people being thrown into the mix, too much going on. As Cassie-as-the First said herself in "Conversations With Dead People": "...going for the big finish". This show did a good job of portraying the Xander and Willow "friendship from early childhood" side of their relationship, but as far as their contemporary relationship was concerned I agree there were too many inconsistencies and dropped storylines.

[Halting Hex]

On 2/17/2020 at 11:59 AM, watcher1006 said:

I'm just a little surprised at the negative comments about S6 "Once More With Feeling" given how popular it was at the time.

Very few things are unanimously beloved.  And contrarians tend to congregate, perhaps in mutual support.  TWoP was once overrun with canon-'shipping Spuffy fans, but by '05 or so, the pulse had swung back.  And a certain amount of us eventually migrated over here.  (David, Sarah and Tara were the founders of TWoP, but sold it to NBC/Bravo in '07.  When it went down for the count [essentially] in 2014, this seemed a logical place to relocate.)  Since OMwF was designed to drive the storylines of Season Sux, it's not surprising that those who…severely disliked that season cast a critical eye on the episode.  Since those of us who hadn't completely bought into the "gorgeous" "love" story between those two crazy kids were rather upset that our longtime favorites (be they Willow or Xander or Giles) were being written (in our opinion) vastly out of character so that Buffy could reject their perspectives.  

And so things such as "Xander, who used to be against spells, period, summons a demon for entertainment.  Because Channel 59 stopped running the Bollywood classics, apparently" and "Willow blows off research for a nooner…no, really!" and "Giles can't tell the difference between co-dependent Buffy and disconnected Buffy, because Beauty and the Beasts and When She Was Bad are the same episode, I guess" ended up chapping a few of us, the initial charms of the songs aside.

(Personally, I love musicals.  I mean, I even gave Cop Rock a chance.  I watched both aired episodes of Viva Laughlin, FFS.  But I didn't have years invested with the characters of those series that I was upset were being brutalized to make me uninterested in musical distractions.  But JMO.)

On 2/17/2020 at 2:17 PM, lembergwatcher said:

there are probably only two Xander/Willow one-on-one scenes in the entire seventh season.

1.   Xander takes Willow to Tara's grave in Help, numbing his best friend's pain by telling her a really boring story about a hammer and a nail.

2.  Xander's jokes about his missing eye in Empty Places fail to heal Willow's broken heart, which is presumably not entirely about Buffy bailing on the promised card games.  (Big of me to admit that, isn't it? Lol.)

Whereas Andrew and Anya get a relative brickload, from stem to stern.  Sheesh.

[Jack Shaftoe]

9 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Since OMwF was designed to drive the storylines of Season Sux, it's not surprising that those who…severely disliked that season cast a critical eye on the episode.

Indeed. All the major problems plaguing the season are very much present in OMWF. And yet so many people say "Joss isn't to blame for the trainwreck of the season, other writers did things behind his back". Even if it weren't painfully obvious how much onboard Joss was with Spuffy, Dull Widow, bad father figure Giles, etc., he still would have been responsible for whatever Noxon and company did while he was busy with his shiny new toy Fireflop. He was still their boss, after all and it's not like he was literally unable to check whatever they were doing.

[Joe Hellandback]

20 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Indeed. All the major problems plaguing the season are very much present in OMWF. And yet so many people say "Joss isn't to blame for the trainwreck of the season, other writers did things behind his back". Even if it weren't painfully obvious how much onboard Joss was with Spuffy, Dull Widow, bad father figure Giles, etc., he still would have been responsible for whatever Noxon and company did while he was busy with his shiny new toy Fireflop. He was still their boss, after all and it's not like he was literally unable to check whatever they were doing.

He's the Captain of the ship so he has ultimate responsibilities. Slayers and Vampires is interesting about it. 

[lembergwatcher]

On 4/24/2020 at 4:34 AM, Halting Hex said:

1.   Xander takes Willow to Tara's grave in Help, numbing his best friend's pain by telling her a really boring story about a hammer and a nail.

2.  Xander's jokes about his missing eye in Empty Places fail to heal Willow's broken heart, which is presumably not entirely about Buffy bailing on the promised card games.

From season 1 until the first half of season 3 most episodes contain some longer or shorter Xillow scenes (some have more than one). Then:

Season 3 post-The Zeppo - 0;

Season 4 - 3 (Wild at Heart, Something Blue, Doomed, The I in Team could've had some very nice Xillow moments if not for fucking Anya);

Season 5 - 7 (Buffy Vs Dracula, The Replacement, Family [a small glimpse of the two of them sitting and talking during Tara's birthday celebration at The Bronze], Into the Woods, The Body [yes, there are Tara and Anya at the dorm room at the moment, but that's still X/W moment. And once again fuck Anya with all her speeches!], Forever, The Gift ["Smart chicks are so hot"/"You couldn't have figured that out in tenth grade?"]);

Season 6 - 7 (Bargaining, Pt 1 [Anya & Tara are there too, but who cares so much about the furniture?], Bargaining, Pt 2, Tabula Rasa, Gone, Dead Things, Hell's Bells, Grave);

Season 7 - a whopping TWO scenes for twenty two eps (despite all the "I love yous" and "yellow crayons" from the previous season's finale...). What if the writing team tried to focus on someone else instead of, say, Andrew or do two Spike/Spuffy scenes less? Would it hurt the "canon" so much??

[Halting Hex]

(I'm thinking we're wandering OT here, but I don't see a "Scooby Group Dynamics" thread, so…)

Lol, I see somebody else has done some counting, too.  

I try not to muddy the waters by doing "moments" with other people in the room.  For me it has to be the two of them (or whatever pairing/grouping I'm looking for) alone.  I mean, you can have extras around  (Xillow brooding while the Dingoes play "She Flies" at the Homecoming is a scene, before Faith and Giles show up), but no other characters interacting.   So I believe the count is even worse, post-S3.

S4:  Wild at Heart (a translator from the "Y" side), Something Blue (two scenes of griping, interrupted by Buffy "making [Spike] the happiest man [not actually] alive), Doomed (I'll give credit for the "feels smaller" exchange, since Buffy/Riley/Spike are moving out while Xillow hang back).  Total-4.

S5:  Buffy vs. Dracula ("News flash, Will.  Everybody already knows."), The Replacement (should we only give half-credit for Scruffy!Xander, as he's technically only half a Xander?  Nah, let's be generous.  Two scenes of Snoopy dances and wet socks it is), and Forever (OMG, Spike didn't leave a card!  He TOTALLY is mourning Joyce!  FFS, Will…)  Total-4

S6:  Bargaining 2 ("How long have you known your gf's Tinkerbell?"), Gone (somebody did a bad spell!  Must be Willow!  Ugh…but he does apologize later), Dead Show (two lines of dialogue on the street before Tara shows…oh, joy) Hell's Bells ("You, me, formal wear"), Villains (you forgot the conversation by the ambulance, with both of them having blood spatter on their shirts?  Shame, shame!  Such a heart-warming moment, don't you know?), Grave (2-part confrontation on Kingman's Bluff, with eight "I love you"s from X)  Total—8

S7, two, as noted.  (There's a perfectly nice W/X scene in Him, when he stops her from doing the transgender spell on RJ…but Spike is lingering in the doorway, albeit silently.  Much like a fart.)

So yeah, S6 was Xillow paradise, relatively speaking.  Nearly as many scenes/scenelets (8) as the rest of post-HS combined (10).

Shall we compare to S1?  Sure, why not?

Welcome to the Hellmouth:  1 ("Willow! You're so very much the person I wanted to see!")

The Harvest: 1 ("Rain of Toads" scene, a late addition [Note NB's shorter hair, combed down to camouflage])

Witch:  3 ("Willow, you're my guy friend who knows about girls"/"Hey, King of Cretins, alternates are the ones who didn't make the team!"/"Xander, you're a chewed-up pen")

Teacher's Pet:  0.  I don't think Willow has a single scene in this episode that Buffy's not in, too.  Ah, young love ❤️

NKAB, etc:  1  (the debate on whether to follow Buffy or Giles)

The Pack:  4 (frustrated math tutoring;  "I won't have to see your pasty face, ever again" [Yes, the Pack are in the background, but Xander specifically pulls Willow away to speak to her in private, so I let it slide]; "Weren't things a lot simpler when it was just you and me?";  Willow hiding from Hyena!Xander in the classroom)

Ten in six episodes, already…

Angel:  1  (Xander doesn't need to look at Buffy and Angel in the tag; another W/X scene was cut from the script)

I Robot, You Jane: 1 ("Guess who?" "Xander" "Yeah…but keep guessing")

The Puppet Show:  0 (No B/W or B/X scenes, either;  It's only group-work or interacting with the guest cast, here.)

Nightmares: 4 (2-part plot recap in the hall [pre-nudity], interrupted by the punk and him mom; I had to sing!/Remember that clown?; "Still dug [Vamp!Buffy], huh?"  "I'm sick, I need help.")

Out of Mind, Out of Sight:  1, sort of  (they certainly enjoy the "Be my deputy!" reminiscence, but of course Buffy is right there; I'll give credit for the dinner invite, since they're leaving together and only interacting with each other, even though Giles and Buffy are watching and we stay with them, rather than W/X)

Prophecy Girl:  3  (Practicing at the Bronze; reacting to the earthquake;  "On a scale of 1-to-10?  It sucked")

So that's 20 W/X scenes in 12 episodes, as opposed to 18 in 88 post-SHS eps.  (And of course the reason there aren't more such scenes in S1 is that there are a lot of B/W/X scenes, instead.  Which isn't a bad thing, and which is also not the case, post-Graduation.)

Of course, W/X weren't the only "old-school" dynamic ill-served, post-school.  Buffy and Willow had many more scenes together, from the jump (because Buffy is the title character and Willow provides a way for us to view Buffy's teenage-girl brain in ways that Xander or Giles or Angel can't) and yet, they withered away, once Joss had the "bloody brilliant" idea to essentially replace Willow with Dawn.  (Which is doomed to fail, because Dawn can never be Buffy's peer the way that Willow is.  She's always Buffy's little sister [even as her height and rack surpass Smidge…], lacking Buffy's life experience and unable to challenge Buffy's perceptions and/or authority, the way Willow did from The Harvest on.)  

So we go eight episodes at the start of S6 with a grand total of one B/W scene (Willow 'fessing up about boinking Angel and Riley in Flooded) and limp home with absolutely zero B/W scenes in the final six episodes.  (And Storyteller was just one line in the dining room about the knife;  the last substantial B/W convo was the tag of Get it Done.)

Sheesh.

[Jediknight]

I've been doing a rewatch of the Buffyverse, and I really enjoy "Beer Bad".  Hell, I'm pretty sure I've watched it more times than "The Body", "Once More With Feeling", and "Conversations With Dead People" combined.  There's just so much in that episode that I find entertaining.  Xander's horrible fake ID, Cave Slayer, Xander as the bartender, the great season 4 comedy team of Giles and Xander, and that it's so quotable.  It's not a tightly writ episode by any stretch of the imagination; but there's just so much that's entertaining in there.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Jediknight

[Joe Hellandback]

18 hours ago, Jediknight said:

I've been doing a rewatch of the Buffyverse, and I really enjoy "Beer Bad".  Hell, I'm pretty sure I've watched it more times than "The Body", "Once More With Feeling", and "Conversations With Dead People" combined.  There's just so much in that episode that I find entertaining.  Xander's horrible fake ID, Cave Slayer, Xander as the bartender, the great season 4 comedy team of Giles and Xander, and that it's so quotable.  It's not a tightly writ episode by any stretch of the imagination; but there's just so much that's entertaining in there.

As a comedy ep it's fine but compared to what Buffy can achieve?