S02.E06: Sex and Candy

[Chick2Chic]

23 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

And already the comments were not kind to Maria or Heather... But that's to be expected unfortunately

Same. Black characters, especially, Black women, and the actors who portray them tend to have that happen while others tend to get cut slack for reasons. I hope HH isn't run off social media due to misogynoir like that actress from 13 Reasons Why S3 (among others) because of the threesome nonsense. .

I get what HH was aiming for with her explanation  and who knows if she actually believes what she is saying instead of just doing her job to promote the show. For all Maria knew going in to it, Michael could've have chosen Alex cause "cosmic" and all (per Carina). I did think it was something that TPTB sent HH out to talk about this twist and I wonder if MV or TB will be asked to weigh in too. Ultimately, I still don't get why it couldn't have been a discussion instead of some weird threesome other than for some cheap shock value. Choices. 

[Cristofle]

Just FYI, this gif is going in my permanent file.

[Bloga]

17 minutes ago, Chick2Chic said:

Same. Black characters, especially, Black women, and the actors who portray them tend to have that happen while others tend to get cut slack for reasons. I hope HH isn't run off social media due to misogynoir like that actress from 13 Reasons Why S3 (among others) because of the threesome nonsense. .

I get what HH was aiming for with her explanation  and who knows if she actually believes what she is saying instead of just doing her job to promote the show. For all Maria knew going in to it, Michael could've have chosen Alex cause "cosmic" and all (per Carina). I did think it was something that TPTB sent HH out to talk about this twist and I wonder if MV or TB will be asked to weigh in too. Ultimately, I still don't get why it couldn't have been a discussion instead of some weird threesome other than for some cheap shock value. Choices. 

 

        I also believe it was done for the shock value...because it didn´t solve anything, Maria was going to forgive Michael eventually, Alex and Michael aren´t together anyways, and this hasn´t changed that...they are trying to sell it as Alex wanted to try it to see if he was missing something by not being with a woman, and what better way to get something like this out of the way and of his "bucket list" than with your very toxic ex and your almost family bestie, it felt semi incestuous, gratuitous, and forced...I read the script, Alex said he wanted to leave twice, I guess if you push someone enough, they´ll say yes? very respectful and not at all problematic (not)

Edited April 21, 2020 by Bloga

[phoenics]

6 hours ago, Bloga said:

 

        I also believe it was done for the shock value...because it didn´t solve anything, Maria was going to forgive Michael eventually, Alex and Michael aren´t together anyways, and this hasn´t changed that...they are trying to sell it as Alex wanted to try it to see if he was missing something by not being with a woman, and what better way to get something like this out of the way and of his "bucket list" than with your very toxic ex and your almost family bestie, it felt semi incestuous, gratuitous, and forced...I read the script, Alex said he wanted to leave twice, I guess if you push someone enough, they´ll say yes? very respectful and not at all problematic (not)

Agreed.

Aside from the consent issues and Carina throwing Maria/HH to the wolves AGAIN, there is also the main question which is:  Would she have conceived this stupid storyline for a STRAIGHT triangle?

NO!  No she never would.  Imagine the uproar if Liz or Tess had suggested a threesome with Max - WTAF.

I know I've been VERY vocal about the racist tropes she's heaped upon Maria and tripped over herself, but this was SO bad and so contrived for shock value because she had a gay couple she could exploit.  So it sucked for the LGBTQIA community too!  I'm just aghast, honestly.

I don't understand which fans she thought she was appealing to - this has made me quit the show.  I'm done with it.  It's off my rotation.  Finished.  Kaput.

Edited April 21, 2020 by phoenics

[Bloga]

37 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Agreed.

Aside from the consent issues and Carina throwing Maria/HH to the wolves AGAIN, there is also the main question which is:  Would she have conceived this stupid storyline for a STRAIGHT triangle?

NO!  No she never would.  Imagine the uproar if Liz or Tess had suggested a threesome with Max - WTAF.

I know I've been VERY vocal about the racist tropes she's heaped upon Maria and tripped over herself, but this was SO bad and so contrived for shock value because she had a gay couple she could exploit.

I don't understand which fans she thought she was appealing to - this has made me quit the show.  I'm done with it.  It's off my rotation.  Finished.  Kaput.

 

         I am beginning to question how the people who seem to support this choice on social media  view friendship and limits. Isn´t anything off limits for some people? I am just really weirded out now that I have read Heather´s interview, Heather saying Maria has an agenda which was pretty much having Michael make a choice, didn´t he make that choice already? What else did she need? Did she really have to initiate a threesome with her gay bestie and messy Michael so that they could rub it on Alex´s face afterwards? I feel sorry for Heather, tbh, to be stuck with that kind of storyline...it´s like Carina said, oh it´s not enough some in the fandom hate her because she came between the cosmic lovers (lol), let´s make it extra messy and throw in a threesome because that solves everything...then discard Alex. Sex isn´t  the solution to all problems. What if Alex was a woman, would they do that? would they have two best friends vying for the same guy have a threesome so they guy can choose one, even when the choice was made already. I don´t go on tumblr, but I saw some stuff on twitter, and people are running polls about who they hate more, jerk Michael or bith Maria, so there you go.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Bloga

[backhometome]

36 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Would she have conceived this stupid storyline for a STRAIGHT triangle?

I wondered this as well. Would she do this with Max/Liz/Kyle? I highly doubt it.

[Cristofle]

Just now, backhometome said:

I wondered this as well. Would she do this with Max/Liz/Kyle? I highly doubt it.

I sincerely doubt it. And sure, we can say Max doesn't seem the type in particular, but neither does Alex, lol. And Maria does not seem the type to ignore that Alex isn't the type. Liz and Kyle had a fairly respectful and adult conversation about how she doesn't feel that way about him anymore because she's in love with Max, and Kyle knows that and he wants her to be happy, but he needs to take a step back to help remove himself emotionally from the whole situation. I don't know why that couldn't have happened between Alex and Michael.

[amazinglybored]

33 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I don't understand which fans she thought she was appealing to

That might be the million dollar question in all of this. I think she’s incompetent and that always has to be remembered but beyond that, idk. Michael is her favourite ball of angst and manpain so maybe it was for him to get what he wants. Maybe she has a thing for threesomes (/turning a gay man straight?) and got to put it on the show. Maybe she wanted to be “edgy” and get people talking. Maybe she tried to be super duper woke and played herself because she’s not even close. I’d say there’s no way she could think fans of both ships and all 3 characters would be happy, but she’s so incompetent...

 

I’m more surprised no one pulled the plug on that mess, tbh.
 

 

[UNOSEZ]

32 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I sincerely doubt it. And sure, we can say Max doesn't seem the type in particular, but neither does Alex, lol. And Maria does not seem the type to ignore that Alex isn't the type. Liz and Kyle had a fairly respectful and adult conversation about how she doesn't feel that way about him anymore because she's in love with Max, and Kyle knows that and he wants her to be happy, but he needs to take a step back to help remove himself emotionally from the whole situation. I don't know why that couldn't have happened between Alex and Michael.

Same reason most shows only have one blk person... Can't have too much of a logical thing

[tennisgurl]

So I totally ship Kyle and Isobel now, thats what I took from this episode! They had great chemistry at the bar, and I actually could totally see a relationship between the two of them working out, so go ahead and make it a thing! Its especially better than sticking Kyle with this boring unpleasant Steph person, he can do much better, and he and Isobel dating could be a really interesting new dynamic. They can go on hilariously awkward double dates with Max and Liz!

Speaking of, I like happy cheerful Max a lot, and this is probably the most appealing I've ever found Max/Liz, they were really cute flirting over Max's terrible Spanish and joking about horses and stuff, it all just seemed really light and fun, while I often find their relationship (and Max in general) to be so loaded with ANGST that it can be hard to really enjoy them.  They actually had some real spark here without all of their baggage. He seemed like he was still in a pretty good mood after he got his Liz memories back, so maybe this can be a more permanent change? If Max/Liz is going to be our A Couple, I want to at least see them smile every once in awhile. Of course, cheerful happy Max might not be around for much longer, because not only does he have his Liz memories, he is also finding some old repressed memories, and pretty awful ones too, of being chained to the floor of a cave. Was the person who touched his shoulder his abusive alien dad? 

Now that we have gotten another mention, I can only guess that Diego the ex fiance will show up soon. What Liz did was really messed up, changing her number and blocking him on Facebook seems to be a pretty excessive way to ghost someone you almost married, and I hope they dont try to make him evil or abusive or something and she was totally right to do what she did, I hope that she really did screw up and has to apologize. I think that makes for a stronger character arc for her, where she has to learn not to always run and to open up to people and learn to trust, and a lot of characters on this show have done really messed up stuff, even if it was for a sympathetic reason, and I am cool with Liz making a big mistake as well. 

So the three-way...that sure was...a thing. Normally I am all for resolving a love triangle with a threesome, but this one just feels so bizarre. Adding to that, reading that article about it just raises even more questions about what the point was. So Alex was dealing with his own internalized homophobia because his dad is awful by living out some kind of fantasy where he could sleep with his childhood best friend Maria while also sleeping with his first love Michael? But while Alex still has feelings for Michael, Michael is mostly still into Maria? And Maria was testing Michael? Then Alex went to see Forest, because he needed to just bang one out with Michael to get him out of his system? I have no idea what this all was or what it means going forward, but I dont think its good for Alex. It feels like he got used somehow, even though I am not sure how yet. I just really really hope that this Forrest guy is actually a good dude and isn't really an asshole or just flirting with him to get close to the aliens, because I dont know if Alex could take that emotionally. 

I did really love Michael/Max/Isobel hanging out while Max got ready for his date, it was cute. More of that please! 

God so much happened this week I haven't even been able to talk about David Anders playing some kind of crazy army test subject turned ax wielding hillbilly murderer who is also an evil twin! I gotta say, he didn't do a bad job with the accent.

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by tennisgurl

[Cristofle]

4 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I gotta say, he didn't do a bad job with the accent.

Anders is good with accents; I first encountered him on Alias and did not know for some time that he wasn't British, lol.

I think it probably WOULD be more character building for Liz if Diego really is a nice guy she did a very bad thing to, and she had to confront how that impacted him face-to-face at some point, but my TV spidey senses just went off when she said she: left in the middle of the night, changed her phone number, and blocked him on Facebook. Like...wow. LOL. That SOUNDS like something you do more when you're afraid of someone on some level, but maybe Liz is just that afraid of difficult conversations. She was a child who was abandoned by her mother; she's acknowledged fearing her own ability to repeat that pattern. Hell, it didn't take much for her to run away from Max in this episode when she decided she wasn't good for him, even though he seemed to be having a perfectly nice time flirting with her. 

I wondered if Fire Guy was Max's abusive father too; Louise did not exactly seem to be pining for a lost husband. It's even less surprising that he was so struck as a child by Liz's kindness to him, since he was having those nightmares that indicated he knew what had happened to him on some level. Whoever was abusing him, he was clearly being abused. 

[bettername2come]

18 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I did really love Michael/Max/Isobel hanging out while Max got ready for his date, it was cute. More of that please! 

Really my favorite thing about the whole episode was the non-angsty relationship moments we got, and we got a good variety this ep. 

 

18 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So I totally ship Alex and Isobel now, thats what I took from this episode! They had great chemistry at the bar, and I actually could totally see a relationship between the two of them working out, so go ahead and make it a thing! Its especially better than sticking Alex with this boring unpleasant Steph person, he can do much better, and he and Isobel dating could be a really interesting new dynamic. They can go on hilariously awkward double dates with Max and Liz!

Kyle. Don't drag Alex into anymore complicated relationships.

Edited April 21, 2020 by bettername2come

[tennisgurl]

11 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

Kyle. Don't drag Alex into anymore complicated relationships.

Shit, whoops! I think my brain was still trying to wrap my head around various questionable three-way antics and names started to not make sense anymore for a minute!

[Bloga]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

So I totally ship Kyle and Isobel now, thats what I took from this episode! They had great chemistry at the bar, and I actually could totally see a relationship between the two of them working out, so go ahead and make it a thing! Its especially better than sticking Kyle with this boring unpleasant Steph person, he can do much better, and he and Isobel dating could be a really interesting new dynamic. They can go on hilariously awkward double dates with Max and Liz!

Speaking of, I like happy cheerful Max a lot, and this is probably the most appealing I've ever found Max/Liz, they were really cute flirting over Max's terrible Spanish and joking about horses and stuff, it all just seemed really light and fun, while I often find their relationship (and Max in general) to be so loaded with ANGST that it can be hard to really enjoy them.  They actually had some real spark here without all of their baggage. He seemed like he was still in a pretty good mood after he got his Liz memories back, so maybe this can be a more permanent change? If Max/Liz is going to be our A Couple, I want to at least see them smile every once in awhile. Of course, cheerful happy Max might not be around for much longer, because not only does he have his Liz memories, he is also finding some old repressed memories, and pretty awful ones too, of being chained to the floor of a cave. Was the person who touched his shoulder his abusive alien dad? 

Now that we have gotten another mention, I can only guess that Diego the ex fiance will show up soon. What Liz did was really messed up, changing her number and blocking him on Facebook seems to be a pretty excessive way to ghost someone you almost married, and I hope they dont try to make him evil or abusive or something and she was totally right to do what she did, I hope that she really did screw up and has to apologize. I think that makes for a stronger character arc for her, where she has to learn not to always run and to open up to people and learn to trust, and a lot of characters on this show have done really messed up stuff, even if it was for a sympathetic reason, and I am cool with Liz making a big mistake as well. 

So the three-way...that sure was...a thing. Normally I am all for resolving a love triangle with a threesome, but this one just feels so bizarre. Adding to that, reading that article about it just raises even more questions about what the point was. So Alex was dealing with his own internalized homophobia because his dad is awful by living out some kind of fantasy where he could sleep with his childhood best friend Maria while also sleeping with his first love Michael? But while Alex still has feelings for Michael, Michael is mostly still into Maria? And Maria was testing Michael? Then Alex went to see Forest, because he needed to just bang one out with Michael to get him out of his system? I have no idea what this all was or what it means going forward, but I dont think its good for Alex. It feels like he got used somehow, even though I am not sure how yet. I just really really hope that this Forrest guy is actually a good dude and isn't really an asshole or just flirting with him to get close to the aliens, because I dont know if Alex could take that emotionally. 

I did really love Michael/Max/Isobel hanging out while Max got ready for his date, it was cute. More of that please! 

God so much happened this week I haven't even been able to talk about David Anders playing some kind of crazy army test subject turned ax wielding hillbilly murderer who is also an evil twin! I gotta say, he didn't do a bad job with the accent.

 

          I think the showrunner just wanted a twitterstorm to happen, social media chatter helps a show, but I don´t think it´s going to translate into higher ratings...I think ratings will go down, which this show has lost half its viewership from last season, so Carina can count her lucky stars the show got renewed early...although there is so much uncertainty at the moment I wouldn´t be surprised if many already renewed shows end up being canceled. 

    I personally don´t think a love triangle can be solved with a threesome, it´s two people vying for the same person, by all intents and purposes they are rivals, right? so who benefits from it? The central character in said triangle...in this case, why risk a friendship this way? There was some coercion going on, and Heather saying in her interview Maria was testing Michael...I mean, it´s so unhealthy, the only one who benefits from it is Michael, and he had already made up his mind about who he was going to choose. This whole internalized homophobia playing a part in it was seriously disturbing, I said it before, it felt like when someone says to a lesbian " you just haven´t met the right guy yet" 

[Chick2Chic]

1 hour ago, Bloga said:

I think ratings will go down, which this show has lost half its viewership from last season, so Carina can count her lucky stars the show got renewed early...although there is so much uncertainty at the moment I wouldn´t be surprised if many already renewed shows end up being canceled. 

Been about 0.1 in demo all season so far with not a lot of total viewer variation overall tho a definite difference between S1 and S2 numbers. Details here: https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/roswell-new-mexico-season-two-ratings/

(I don't know if Carina considered current ratings to drum up attention cause wasn't most or all of this second season shot before it even dropped? Plus the show has a deal with Netflix as well as those who watch on the CW app/site irt delayed viewing)

 

RE: Maria "testing Michael," it could have just as easily gone against her with Michael picking Alex. HH said Maria initiated it as a resolution to things, which is a dumb thing since it wasn't actually a true triangle thus unnecessary. (it also wouldn't have been necessary if it had been a true triangle cause they are too old for that instead of just talking things out). IMO, it makes Maria seem a lot more nefarious & malicious than the actions onscreen or HH's comments paint her intentions to be and it is honestly starting to make me look twice at that specific, constant nitpick esp with with the existing misogynoir problem with the show.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Chick2Chic
added something

[Bloga]

17 minutes ago, Chick2Chic said:

Been about 0.1 in demo all season so far with not a lot of total viewer variation overall tho a definite difference between S1 and S2 numbers. Details here: https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/roswell-new-mexico-season-two-ratings/

(I don't know if Carina considered current ratings to drum up attention cause wasn't most or all of this second season shot before it even dropped? Plus the show has a deal with Netflix as well as those who watch on the CW app/site irt delayed viewing)

        

4 minutes ago, Bloga said:

         No, she wasn´t thinking about current ratings, she was thinking of the shock value of this whole threesome mess, and how it would bring a lot of attention to the show (Lily Cowles and Carina herself have mentioned this episode many times prior to it airing, and how it would "break the internet") and how that attention could eventually become a ratings boost...but the ratings have been down from last year by like 50%, so that´s why I mentioned the early s3 renewal.

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Bloga

[Cristofle]

They can't film pilots so I think the show is probably safe for now, but I don't think Carina did this for ratings. I think she did it because of her weird Michael obsession.

[peachmangosteen]

6 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Just FYI, this gif is going in my permanent file.

I didn't even realize she licked his ear lol. I need more of them.

[Bloga]

1 minute ago, Cristofle said:

They can't film pilots so I think the show is probably safe for now, but I don't think Carina did this for ratings. I think she did it because of her weird Michael obsession.

        Well I think this move backfired...people are calling Michael a jerk and cancelling Malex, so...well done Carina, I guess?🤷‍♀️...I wonder what kind of merch Michael Vlamis is going to come up with now that there is no Malex for the foreseeable future, and he leaned on that cosmic love stuff hard lol. 

[Cristofle]

Oh yeah, I said it in the spoiler thread before it aired - I think she may have overestimated how much literally anyone else loves Michael, lol. She also clearly misunderstood how important it was that Alex had repeatedly identified as gay (not bi or pan or anything else) in terms of how inappropriate him having a threesome with a woman (his childhood best friend, no less, in a threesome with his first and currently only love) would be.

This episode really might have been good, if weird, if not for that mess. Isobel and Kyle were good, Max and Liz were good, the Pod Squad's interaction was cute. And we did finally get one concrete memory from one of the aliens of their lives prior to being put in pods. And instead, we're all trying to deal with the mess that was that threesome.

[peachmangosteen]

I'm just so confused. Like, why show Alex saying he didn't wanna do it twice and direct TB to have the most uncomfortable body language I've maybe ever seen (although, maybe that was just him lol)? Why have HH out here promoting the hell outta this ep and then telling everyone Maria coerced Alex into this all so that Michael would choose her over him? It's like I knew Carina was dumb but this is a whole other level!

[ellieart]

So I went back and listened to the dialogue in that scene again, because apparently Alex enthusiastically consented and he supposedly said "I really don't want to leave" but like, I had to STRAIN to hear that, it's not clear AT ALL.  I listened over and over.  And I also see no enthusiasm anywhere in his body language.  If the intent of that scene was to show clear and happy consent, it failed.  The way the dialogue was delivered and the facial expressions were done on purpose.  The fact that majority of the fanbase heard/read the scene the same way means there's a huge problem and Carina refuses to acknowledge that.  She's also once again invalidating the feelings of some of the fans by using the "sexuality is fluid" excuse.  I'd buy that if Alex at any point was presented as anything more than just gay.  It's like with Isobel this episode...her hooking up with the bartender didn't seem all that unusual because she always seemed rather open and experimental.  But Alex has presented as just into men since the pilot.

The interview Heather did where she basically says Maria did this to make Michael choose...yeah that makes this entire thing even worse.  It's just all sorts of gross.  The writers seriously must hate Maria, they are destroying her in the worst possible way.

[Bloga]

9 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I'm just so confused. Like, why show Alex saying he didn't wanna do it twice and direct TB to have the most uncomfortable body language I've maybe ever seen (although, maybe that was just him lol)? Why have HH out here promoting the hell outta this ep and then telling everyone Maria coerced Alex into this all so that Michael would choose her over him? It's like I knew Carina was dumb but this is a whole other level!

       Carina has been surprisingly silent on sm, she posted something right after the episode aired, but people came after her and she was being her usual throw the stone and hide the hand self, so she just posted some pictures of Kyle Isobel and the three, no pictures of Max and Liz, she ignores Jeanine like it´s her job...surprisingly there are people calling it the best episode they have ever seen...so people see that scene and they don´t see the uneasiness, how inappropriate it is to put someone in that position, I honestly feel like Alex felt between a rock and a hard place, he wanted to be with Michael, he knew Maria was part of the deal, so he went along with it, Maria has turned out to be a conniving manipulative bitch, the only black character is an oversexualized witch who bulldozes a decades long friendship over a messy messy guy...

[Chick2Chic]

11 minutes ago, Bloga said:

Maria has turned out to be a conniving manipulative bitch, 

I hard disagree with this statement but I also figured the road would lead here eventually. 

Anywho, I continue to hope that MV & TB will weigh in on their thoughts about the threesome - or even asked about it on social media - instead of HH ( + Maria) being hung out to dry. I am really curious about MV & TB's takes though I doubt they could be honest about it even if they did dislike the threesome or have issues with it, same with HH.

[Cristofle]

Tyler is probably used to batshit crazy plot points (yes, PLL, I am looking at you) so this might not have even fazed him, lol. But I also would not hold anything the actors say against them here - this wasn't THEIR idea. 

[Bloga]

2 minutes ago, Chick2Chic said:

I hard disagree with this statement but I also figured the road would lead here eventually. 

Anywho, I continue to hope that MV & TB will weigh in on their thoughts about the threesome - or even asked about it on social media - instead of HH ( + Maria) being hung out to dry. I am really curious about MV & TB's takes though I doubt they could be honest about it even if they did dislike the threesome or have issues with it, same with HH.

               I understand what you are saying, but after reading the interview, it seems like this was the intention, to pretty much throw Maria under the bus once again. I doubt Michael and Tyler will  be asked about it, they threw that load on Heather, I hope it doesn´t get too bad for her.

[backhometome]

That was not enthusiastic consent. You could barely hear what he was saying and his facial expression/body language said otherwise. Perhaps they should have shot it differently. Carina is full of crap with that excuse.

[Cristofle]

Alex looked MISERABLE and terribly uncomfortable. At no point did he appear to be enjoying himself. He tried to play it off to Michael the next morning, and immediately looked unhappy again as soon as he turned around. Enthusiastic consent is not a person mumbling so low no one can clearly hear him while looking like he's being dragged to the gallows. Max was clearly happy to consent to roof sex. Isobel was clearly happy to consent to a hookup with the bartender. There are literally examples of enthusiastic consent IN THIS EPISODE, that are not what happened in that threesome.

[UNOSEZ]

29 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Alex looked MISERABLE and terribly uncomfortable. At no point did he appear to be enjoying himself. He tried to play it off to Michael the next morning, and immediately looked unhappy again as soon as he turned around. Enthusiastic consent is not a person mumbling so low no one can clearly hear him while looking like he's being dragged to the gallows. Max was clearly happy to consent to roof sex. Isobel was clearly happy to consent to a hookup with the bartender. There are literally examples of enthusiastic consent IN THIS EPISODE, that are not what happened in that threesome.

Devils Advocate here... Wouldn't full throated consent also come off as weird or innapropriate... I mean if ppl are up in arms because Alex ( tho he's at least in some kind of way messed around with a woman before)  presents as no holds barred gay, but then jumps into this potential emotional minefield all gung ho... Isnt his more cautious acceptance a more natural way to play it... 

As I have closed captions on all the time except for sports and news I read him saying he didn't want to go.. So it landed with me that at least a part of him ( could be some internalized homophobia) wanted to do this.. 

As I don't recall all of season one.. Has Alex been with other guys?  I know mike is the 1st love.. But besides that... Anything... Also I'm guessing Isobel been with girls before and I just don't remember ... Cuz her deciding to smush the bartender hasn't seemed to register anywhere I see discussion of the episode

[amazinglybored]

35 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Alex looked MISERABLE and terribly uncomfortable. At no point did he appear to be enjoying himself. He tried to play it off to Michael the next morning, and immediately looked unhappy again as soon as he turned around. Enthusiastic consent is not a person mumbling so low no one can clearly hear him while looking like he's being dragged to the gallows. Max was clearly happy to consent to roof sex. Isobel was clearly happy to consent to a hookup with the bartender. There are literally examples of enthusiastic consent IN THIS EPISODE, that are not what happened in that threesome.

 

There always seems to be some crazy disconnect between some of the people involved. Carina, the director, the actors, the editor,  and probably Twitter/Instagram carina months later.

 

here you have,

carina: enthusiastic consent, safe place 

tyler on screen: miserable

heather in an interview: it was a test, aka manipulative

writers: haha, bucket list; felt loved. Situation diffused and explained.

director: let’s make her look nefarious when Michael comes back in and repeatedly show Alex being uncomfortable. Yes.

 

[Cristofle]

9 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

As I don't recall all of season one.. Has Alex been with other guys?  I know mike is the 1st love.. But besides that... Anything... Also I'm guessing Isobel been with girls before and I just don't remember ... Cuz her deciding to smush the bartender hasn't seemed to register anywhere I see discussion of the episode

Isobel apparently married Noah not long after high school, so I don't think she's ever had the chance or felt comfortable exploring her sexuality (she talked a lot about how she played a part in her marriage, rather than actually let him in), but she also didn't seem THAT horrified or unwilling to accept she had been attracted to Rosa when she thought Noah's feelings were hers at first, giving me the impression she'd probably thought about being attracted to girls before. She has never explicitly identified as straight.

I doubt Alex has been in a serious relationship with any other man- actually, I think he confirmed it in this episode - but it's hard to say if he ever had a fling in the military. However, it was seemingly widely known that he was gay at school long before he got involved with Alex. 

Honestly, I think Michael probably had a point when he told Max it was ridiculous to hold them to a human concept of sexuality, lol. For all we know, none of the Pod Squad is completely straight - Max has just been so gaga over Liz his entire life, it didn't leave much room for exploring his sexuality. 

Re: whether Alex enthusiastically consenting to a threesome would have looked realistic, I doubt it - hence I do not think he should have been involved in a threesome. I don't think Max being in one would be a great idea either since I don't think he'd like it. Max has two sex modes we've seen: sex with Liz and sex with someone he's using to try to forget Liz. I cannot see him comfortable allowing a third person into their relationship and I don't think he's THAT interested in sex with anyone other than Liz that a threesome would be something he'd be into. Alex similarly has never given me the vibe a threesome would be his thing, especially with a woman, and special especially with Maria and Michael specifically.

[amazinglybored]

3 hours ago, Cristofle said:

They can't film pilots so I think the show is probably safe for now, but I don't think Carina did this for ratings. I think she did it because of her weird Michael obsession.

Yeah, I think between it being the CW, already being renewed and pilot season being DOA right now they’ll be fine for season 3 unless it gets U-G-L-Y ratings. She might manage it if she tries real hard but it’s unlikely. I fully expect it to get “prematurely” cancelled and left in an awkward place, though. Cue years of her saying how she would have ended it to anyone who will listen and she thinks will follow her to another project.

 

Her Michael obsession is a likely candidate for this. Of course the two POC are done dirty pursuing the angsty white man.

[shapeshifter]

10 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Although it'd have been funny if Michael had shown up at Max's to talk about his threesome next. One had a lesbian hookup, one had a threesome, and one had sex on a roof.

A totally missed opportunity!

[ellieart]

3 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Devils Advocate here... Wouldn't full throated consent also come off as weird or innapropriate... I mean if ppl are up in arms because Alex ( tho he's at least in some kind of way messed around with a woman before)  presents as no holds barred gay, but then jumps into this potential emotional minefield all gung ho... Isnt his more cautious acceptance a more natural way to play it... 

As I have closed captions on all the time except for sports and news I read him saying he didn't want to go.. So it landed with me that at least a part of him ( could be some internalized homophobia) wanted to do this.. 

As I don't recall all of season one.. Has Alex been with other guys?  I know mike is the 1st love.. But besides that... Anything... Also I'm guessing Isobel been with girls before and I just don't remember ... Cuz her deciding to smush the bartender hasn't seemed to register anywhere I see discussion of the episode

I get what you're saying and I agree that a full throated consent WOULD come off as weird and inappropriate.  But so did the so-called consent he gave in the episode.  No matter how they played it, it would and did come off and weird and inappropriate.  Simply because this scene was completely unnecessary and this isn't the right show to tackle it.  I don't think the writing on this show is strong enough to accurately handle these kinds of storylines and they tend to botch them often.  If they had utilized the previous 18 episodes to build up to the threesome and have Alex question himself, the scene still would have been a risky choice, but a logical step in the narrative we were given.  Instead they decided to drop a few sort of hints in the last episode and then try to make it all make sense based on the dialogue in the short scene while they drove.  Obviously this is only my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own, I'm just glad we're all able to be adults about it and actually discuss it like adults.  

As for Isobel...this sums it up nicely

3 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Isobel apparently married Noah not long after high school, so I don't think she's ever had the chance or felt comfortable exploring her sexuality (she talked a lot about how she played a part in her marriage, rather than actually let him in), but she also didn't seem THAT horrified or unwilling to accept she had been attracted to Rosa when she thought Noah's feelings were hers at first, giving me the impression she'd probably thought about being attracted to girls before. She has never explicitly identified as straight.

Honestly, I think Michael probably had a point when he told Max it was ridiculous to hold them to a human concept of sexuality, lol. For all we know, none of the Pod Squad is completely straight - Max has just been so gaga over Liz his entire life, it didn't leave much room for exploring his sexuality. 

Michael's line about the human concept of sexuality did stick out to me.  I actually had the thought that the aliens didn't really identify as anything, that they were completely fluid and open to anything.  Only Max has shown a consistent interest in one sex.  

[Whodunnit]

16 hours ago, Bloga said:

..it felt like a competition, initiated by Maria, so that Michael would pick a winner

What's worse is that this happened after he admitted that the one time that he felt 'loved' (but he did not say attracted to) by a woman was in the seven minutes of heaven with Maria.  

[theschnauzers]

Something to keep in mind with the CW and it’s shows. It’s less concerned about Live or Live Plus 7 ratings, than Live Plus 30 and streaming and international viewing, all of which they use to calculate profits. Roswell is not the lowest rated CW show, dynasty is, but it seems to survive because of international markets.

Whether it gets past season three depends on things that are unknowable right now and how much of a delay the entire 2020-21 season has because of the production shutdown due to COVID19 and whether there is a writer’s strike on top of that.

Edited April 22, 2020 by theschnauzers

[CabotCove]

Quote

 I'd buy that if Alex at any point was presented as anything more than just gay.  It's like with Isobel this episode...her hooking up with the bartender didn't seem all that unusual because she always seemed rather open and experimental.  But Alex has presented as just into men since the pilot.

So was Isobel, she was into men and a married woman of 3 years? then come season 2, oh now she is into women..... Carina and co realised they had no lesbian, W/W  couple representation on the show. Of course I think they should keep Alex gay. Im just amazed at the double standard going on, Isobel is applauded for "experimenting" and becoming more fluid, while there is outrage over Alex for doing a similar thing in the very same episode. I think I figured why that is. Bisexuality is applauded until the bisexual character gets with someone of the opposite sex. If Isobel was lesbian identified and then suddenly got with a guy and becoming bi/fluid, they would likely be outrage too. This stuff has already been happening with Michael,  its frowned on and loathed that  he got with Maria as, if that makes him less bi to be with a woman. 

Anyway, why is it not being acknowledged that it was mentioned that a meteor shower made people act strange. Likely M/A/M wouldnt have acted that way on a different night. This being the show it is, the meteor show is likely a legit excuse. Pretty sure Alex has not changed sexuality to become more fluid, he did after all seem to be interested in starting something with Forrest, a man. Just likely, unusual circumstances, made him participate in a threesome or he was just curious. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by CabotCove

[Cristofle]

Just now, CabotCove said:

So was Isobel, she was into men and a married woman of 3 years? then come season 2, oh now she is into women..... Carina and co realised they had no lesbian, W/W  couple representation on the show. Of course I think they should keep Alex gay. Im just amazed at the double standard going on, Isobel is applauded for "experimenting" and becoming more fluid, while there is outrage over Alex for doing a similar thing in the very same episode. I think I figured why that is. Bisexuality is applauded until the bisexual character gets with someone of the opposite sex. If Isobel was lesbian identified and then suddenly got with a guy, they would likely be outrage too. 

Anyway, why is it not being acknowledged that it was mentioned that they mentioned a meteor shower made people act strange. Likely M/A/M wouldnt have acted that way on a different night. This being the show it is, the meteor show is likely a legit excuse. Pretty sure Alex has not changed sexuality to become more fluid, he did after all seem to be interested in starting something with Forrest, a man. 

I never had a problem with Michael being interested in women or in Maria specifically, because Michael has repeatedly identified as bisexual and attracted to both men and women. I also didn't have a problem with Isobel clearly being attracted to both the bartender and Kyle in this episode. I have definitely seen fans of same sex couples get upset when a character who identifies as bisexual gets involved with a character of the opposite sex, and I think that (along with not a small amount of racism at points) fuels a lot of the character resentment for Maria in M/A fandom circles. But that is not my problem with the threesome, and there are valid criticisms of it without coming around to this being the only one. Isobel never explicitly identified as much of anything prior to this. She was married to a man, but she repeatedly expressed feeling like her entire life was putting on an act and she didn't know who she was. While she was clearly sexually attracted to Noah, beyond that, we got extremely limited insight into her sexuality other than she didn't seem completely surprised or opposed to the thought that she had fallen for Rosa before she realized it was Noah in her head. Alex HAS repeatedly referred to himself as gay. Now, sexuality can always potentially be a moving target, but it hasn't been with him up until now. If he WAS going to experiment, however, I would not consider this particular trio as a healthy way to do it - with a guy he's been in love with for over a decade and his childhood best friend/quasi surrogate sibling, when Alex has been visibly hurt by Maria and Michael's relationship in the past. Finally, if Alex was supposed to look like he was enjoying himself, apparently no one told that to Tyler and I guess the director fell asleep, because that is another large chunk of my discomfort with the scene - Alex looked miserable and thoroughly uncomfortable.

[CabotCove]

Quote

I never had a problem with Michael being interested in women or in Maria specifically, because Michael has repeatedly identified as bisexual and attracted to both men and women. I also didn't have a problem with Isobel clearly being attracted to both the bartender and Kyle in this episode.

I didnt mean you, I just meant the mood thats there generally in fandom/s. Sorry if that wasnt clear. 

Quote

I think ratings will go down, which this show has lost half its viewership from last season, so Carina can count her lucky stars the show got renewed early...although there is so much uncertainty at the moment I wouldn´t be surprised if many already renewed shows end up being canceled. 

Not entirely show's fault for low ratings, they network schedules the show too late in the season, and finishes in summer. If it wasnt for lockdown, most people would be out and about, not watching TV. I think Roswell NM will be safe for renewal, at least I hope so.  It has its issues, but IMO its the best show on the CW right now.  The bar of quality is set very low at CW these days, but hey... RNM has a beautiful aesthetic, mysteries and its offering something different from the network's usual superhero fare. Its a small show with only 13 episodes a season, It doesnt look like it cost a lot to produce. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by CabotCove

[Cristofle]

Carina has said several times that the show has a really tiny budget, and while Trevino, Blackburn, and to a lesser extent Nathan are known in CW/teen show circles, none of the cast strikes me as a big price tag and only four or five of them are even in every episode (and Trevino is not one of them, and neither was Blackburn last season or presumably this season). So yeah, I doubt the show costs much to produce. 

[Featherhat]

18 hours ago, phoenics said:

I don't understand which fans she thought she was appealing to - this has made me quit the show.  I'm done with it.  It's off my rotation.  Finished.  Kaput.

Shock value fans. Look at me so progressive/naughty for having a threesome (which have been happening on TV for a while now) and not going to the "traditional triangle" root. Look now there's all this messy stuff between Maria and Alex that they couldn't just leave as complicated because they were childhood best friends and first kiss.  

There has been a lot of talk in recent years about shows theoretically going the poly route rather than the drawn out love triangle where no character really wins because fans get sick of them all. Siren did this to some success and praise. 

This was just completely fucked up and made no sense for any of the characters and the consent issues and point scoring. And the "explanations" make it even worse. Gay guys can and do sometimes sleep with women, even if they're not dealing with internalised homophobia, I know a couple IRL who said they sometimes do/did for "variety" (probably facetiously) , but it sucks on TV and it's such a cliché, although it's usually lesbians sleeping with men. Although it might have worked if they'd built it up to be more of an issue for Alex instead of just dropping it in but it certainly wasn't a young guy just having fun and sorting his feelings out. 

 I doubt this is going to lead to a throuple situation this was a one and done to tick it off the list. 

Having it be to do with Max/Liz wouldn't work because he's so hyper focused on her and Isabel's dealing with other stuff, although it could have been a very one off with that bartender and someone else not Kyle I guess, so Maria got the short end of the stick. Which she was already dealing with beforehand. 

I legitimately thought David Anders was Vancouver actor Ryan Robbins. He's usually much more recognisable. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Featherhat
Clarity

[Bloga]

2 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Shock value fans. Look at me so progressive/naughty for having a threesome (which have been happening on TV for a while now) and not going to the "traditional triangle" root. Look now there's all this messy stuff between Maria and Alex that they couldn't just leave as complicated because they were childhood best friends and first kiss.  

There has been a lot of talk in recent years about shows theoretically going the poly route rather than the drawn out love triangle where no character really wins because fans get sick of them all. Siren did this to some success and praise. 

This was just completely fucked up and made no sense for any of the characters and the consent issues and point scoring. And the "explanations" make it even worse. Gay guys can and do sometimes sleep with women, even if they're not dealing with internalised homophobia, I know a couple IRL who said they sometimes do/did for "variety", but it sucks on TV and it's such a cliché, although it's usually lesbians sleeping with men. Although it might have worked if they'd built it up to be more of an issue for Alex instead of just dropping it in.

So I doubt this is going to lead to a throuple situation this was a one and done to tick it off the list. 

Having it be to do with Max/Liz wouldn't work because he's so hyper focused on her and Isabel's dealing with other stuff so Maria got the short end of the stick. Which she was already dealing with beforehand. 

     Also I don't think it's fair to compare Isobel and Alex, those defending the threesome and saying people are biased because they are not outraged by Isobel's lesbian encounter seem to overlook the fact that Isobel had a fling with someone she had no attachment to, a stranger...whereas Alex and this whole cosmic love,  starcrossed lovers deal he has with Michael, added to the fact that Maria is pretty much family to him, equal an unnecessary messy mess that doesn't solve anything, puts Alex in a really sad situation, and paints Maria as incredibly insensitive and, the morning after with that scene in the semidark inside the trailer, as nefarious, as it's all part of her machinations to make Michael choose. So it's not fair to compare the two situations. 

5 hours ago, theschnauzers said:

Something to keep in mind with the CW and it’s shows. It’s less concerned about Live or Live Plus 7 ratings, than Live Plus 30 and streaming and international viewing, all of which they use to calculate profits. Roswell is not the lowest rated CW show, dynasty is, but it seems to survive because of international markets.

Whether it gets past season three depends on things that are unknowable right now and how much of a delay the entire 2020-21 season has because of the production shutdown due to COVID19 and whether there is a writer’s strike on top of that.

        You're right, also I forgot about the Writer's strike! It's been postponed I believe, but once things go back to normal it may be a problem.

[CabotCove]

Quote

So it's not fair to compare the two situations. 

Not entirely fair not to, two things dont have to be 100% the same to be compared. But Im just gonna agree to disagree on this issue. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by CabotCove

[Cristofle]

2 hours ago, Featherhat said:

and Isabel's dealing with other stuff

Honestly though, if Isobel had had a threesome with Kyle and the bartender, I'd have bought that. LOL. I feel like that would have been an interesting and less problematic exploring of characters having a threesome. And apparently Kyle is too busy with Steph, which I care less than 0% about.

I agree that Max is not the type to be into a threesome - he barely seems capable of forcing himself to find anyone but Liz sexually appealing on a good day and he legit forgot about a blow job while in the process of getting one from Cam once the second Liz distracted him. I'm just also not sure Alex was prepared for one, or would be interested in one involving a woman, and I think it was a valid point that Carina likely would not have considered this with her primary hetero OTP. It's not that I think it SHOULD have been Max and Liz, I just think it SHOULDN'T have involved Alex. Or if it did, neither of the two other partners should have been Michael or Maria.

[peachmangosteen]

2 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I doubt this is going to lead to a throuple situation this was a one and done to tick it off the list. 

Exactly. I know a couple people who loved the threesome because they're like, "Roswell said love triangle no thanks we're doing a throuple!" but that isn't going to happen. I'll be interested to see how those people feel about this once they realize that they're not actually going to become a throuple.

The real problem imo is that there's no clarity on how exactly we're supposed to take it. Alex looked like he was being held at gunpoint but we're being told by Carina there was 'enthusiastic consent.' Then we have Maria looking devious afterwards and HH actually saying it was Maria testing Michael, which makes her look absolutely heinous yet I'm sure Carina wants to pretend that's not her throwing Maria under the bus.

Nothing about it makes sense on any level lol.

[shapeshifter]

7 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

if Isobel had had a threesome with Kyle and the bartender, I'd have bought that.

Yeah, they set that up. Maybe it was supposed to be titillation for the viewers to get them in the mood for the Alex-Maria-Michael action that had zero chemistry, but was supposed to be about "love," perhaps to make it okay for CW audiences?
Ugh. I am going to stop thinking about this and just be ready to avert my eyes if the A-M-M scene ever pops up again. 

ETA: In contrast to the A-M-M 3some, Kyle, Isobel, and the bartender all seemed playfully interested in engaging with extracurriculars with each other, but when the bartender said no to the 3, there was no pressure to go there.

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by shapeshifter

[Featherhat]

49 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Yeah, they set that up. Maybe it was supposed to be titillation for the viewers to get them in the mood for the Alex-Maria-Michael action that had zero chemistry, but was supposed to be about "love," perhaps to make it okay for CW audiences?

Gossip Girl had a threesome a decade ago that was just about sex, although it was probably also about the shock factor because it involved Hilary Duff. And that was a one and done and barely anything shown. 

Thinking about it I would have been okay with Isabel/bartender/Kyle and it being randomly dropped into Isabel's plotline for the episode, I was just thinking it might be too much after everything with the pregnancy.. But it would have been less emotionally effed up than MMA. 

50 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Exactly. I know a couple people who loved the threesome because they're like, "Roswell said love triangle no thanks we're doing a throuple!" but that isn't going to happen. I'll be interested to see how those people feel about this once they realize that they're not actually going to become a throuple.

The real problem imo is that there's no clarity on how exactly we're supposed to take it. Alex looked like he was being held at gunpoint but we're being told by Carina there was 'enthusiastic consent.' Then we have Maria looking devious afterwards and HH actually saying it was Maria testing Michael, which makes her look absolutely heinous yet I'm sure Carina wants to pretend that's not her throwing Maria under the bus.

Nothing about it makes sense on any level lol.

Yeah all of this. If they were actually considering doing this as a potential throuple I might be more forgiving. Of course that would have meant changing everything about it and how it happened for it to make sense. And a much better exploration of what it means for Alex as a gay man with Maria, his childhood friend and those issues, rather than "yeah I kinda wish I was straight, then I might have been in romantic love with you, I look like I'm doing this under duress" stuff. Even after when he was trying to come up with what it was and Michael said "you felt loved" and Alex agreed he looked like he wanted to throw up.

That's why I think it's just a messed up one off to make everything messier whilst ticking off "threesome" on the shocking showrunner list and patting herself on the back for being "edgy and modern". 

HH saying that is pretty much the worst thing she could have said about it for both her character and the two others involved. I feel for them in that case and I don't even like either of them that much. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Featherhat

[Cristofle]

26 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Alex looked like he was being held at gunpoint but we're being told by Carina there was 'enthusiastic consent.'

Ugh, that irritates me more than a lot, because I'm pretty sure she knows she's full of it. Virtually all of these characters cross emotional and mental boundaries with each other, and there have been all sorts of messy resurrection/healing boundaries broken with Max healing Michael's hand when he didn't want it, the gang bringing Max back when he didn't want to be, and so on. But in terms of a sexual relationship, she HAS had Max be careful never to touch Liz: before getting consent, and if he thinks she is not capable of giving consent for some reason. So Carina knows HOW to write obvious and enthusiastic consent to a romantic/sexual encounter, meaning I don't believe she isn't aware this was...not that. And if Carina ever decides to acknowledge that, I'm guessing it's gonna fall right on Maria's head as the instigator. 

[amazinglybored]

29 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Ugh, that irritates me more than a lot, because I'm pretty sure she knows she's full of it. Virtually all of these characters cross emotional and mental boundaries with each other, and there have been all sorts of messy resurrection/healing boundaries broken with Max healing Michael's hand when he didn't want it, the gang bringing Max back when he didn't want to be, and so on. But in terms of a sexual relationship, she HAS had Max be careful never to touch Liz: before getting consent, and if he thinks she is not capable of giving consent for some reason. So Carina knows HOW to write obvious and enthusiastic consent to a romantic/sexual encounter, meaning I don't believe she isn't aware this was...not that. And if Carina ever decides to acknowledge that, I'm guessing it's gonna fall right on Maria's head as the instigator. 

I doubt she’ll ever acknowledge it, tbh. HH did give her an easy out for blaming Maria and the character gets a lot of bad decisions piled on vs character development time, but then Carina would have to give up on it being #WokeAF. At best it was written as enthusiastic consent and then everyone else was like “nah, creepy” and that’s what made it to screen. Interestingly, I’m struggling to remember any examples of clearly established consent with a gay couple like you see with, say, Liz. Maybe that’s part of this. She understands consent with a straight, sexual pairing but other than that you get a lot of problems. Threesome of doom, Guerin’s hand, all the possession and messing with people’s minds, not telling Maria she was possessed, bringing Rosa back to life, bringing Max back to life, etc.
 

That interview from HH was just a total lighting rod and fuel on the fire for that messed up scene. The blow up with be bigger than if someone else said it or certain other characters did it but she did herself no favours. It’s funny because it contradicts Carina, though.

[Chick2Chic]

40 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

And if Carina ever decides to acknowledge that, I'm guessing it's gonna fall right on Maria's head as the instigator. 

Carina doesn't ever have to say anything, IMO. Look how quickly it's gone from "Poor Maria deserves more than to be marginalized or hated on [by stans, shippers, and racists]" to Maria being labeled devious or a bitch repeatedly over the threesome without pause. Carina's work is done with minimal effort. 

5 hours ago, CabotCove said:

Anyway, why is it not being acknowledged that it was mentioned that a meteor shower made people act strange. Likely M/A/M wouldnt have acted that way on a different night.

I wonder if that will be the card played on the show about it?  It's a fair point from the dialogue that could be used later to explain any unusual actions that night. Perhaps a backdoor get out of jail free card.