Better Things Season 4 Discussion

[Ottis]

Best part of this episode was the ex-husband asking Sam if she knew about *everything* that happened that led to his divorce. And of course she didn't, nor does she ever seem to think that any other factors exist except those she knows of. I could have done without the guy's parting comment about Sam being bitter. Still, it was one of the few moments in this show when we got to hear from the constant targets of the regular cast, and the guy wasn't automatically a jerk because, well, man.

[TVbitch]

Do women in that age group actually have parties like that? Cooking, dining, drinking, singing, howling, lesbian intrigue, getting into with a friend's ex, and some letter burning woo. Jesus God, I'm exhausted just watching. Maybe I'm underachieving just opening some wine and ordering take out. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I always enjoy the episodes where Sam's kids are barely around so much more than the episodes where they're whining about everything.

As horrifying as Phil can be, I liked that she told Frankie that her dad probably wouldn't show up for her birthday. Sam is too nice to say that to her even though she knows it's true, and that's exactly why her letter to her ex was so bitter. She's been dealing with his shitty behavior for so much longer than the other women, some of whom still love their exes.

Sam has no such illusions about the father of her children anymore. He's a selfish inconsiderate dick who can't be bothered to see his own kids even when he's in town (which is why Sam laid into Lala's ex when he claimed he spent "all day" with his kids and Sam correctly guessed that actually meant about four hours).

Sam has resigned herself to her ex being a shitbag to her, but it's obvious that it kills her to see her kids get their hearts broken over and over every time he promises to show up and then flakes, leaving her to clean up his mess, make excuses for him (like when he didn't show up for Max's graduation at the last minute), and dry their tears because daddy has disappointed them for the umpteenth time. I can't really blame her for being bitter about that. She is supporting a family of five (three kids, her mom, and herself), raising three kids full time by herself, and paying alimony to an ex who can't even do the bare minimum of showing an interest in his own kids. He's a terrible father and a terrible ex-husband. 

As for Lala's ex, we saw what an asshole he was last season when she invited some of the girls over for dinner. We have also seen what a jerk Sunny's husband has been too. Just because Sam doesn't know every detail of their relationships doesn't negate the fact that she witnessed her friends' husbands being jerks. She could be more polite to them but at this point I think she figures she doesn't have to bite her tongue anymore when she sees them being jerks again.

Writing a letter and then burning it is something I used to do in high school, but hey if that is what helps you move on then more power to you (regardless of your age).

I feel bad that even sweet little Duke is now shutting Sam out. Thank goodness none of my ballet teachers were power tripping weirdos like Duke's seems to be. We had to wear our hair in buns but as long as it was up in a bun and there weren't huge clumps of stray hair hanging down, that was good enough.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Sam has resigned herself to her ex being a shitbag to her, but it's obvious that it kills her to see her kids get their hearts broken over and over every time he promises to show up and then flakes, leaving her to clean up his mess, make excuses for him (like when he didn't show up for Max's graduation at the last minute), and dry their tears because daddy has disappointed them for the umpteenth time. I can't really blame her for being bitter about that.

This also probably partly explains (it's also her personality) to take whatever the kids throw at her to show them that she'll always be there for them no matter what. Because the girls really do keep leaving themselves open to be heartbroken. Even Frankie here saying that she wanted to have a relationship with her father to not continue the tradition of shitty fathers in the family--as if that's something she has control over at all.

[Door County Cherry]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

She could be more polite to them but at this point I think she figures she doesn't have to bite her tongue anymore when she sees them being jerks again.

She's not just not polite, she's aggressively an asshole inserting herself in something that doesn't concern her. 

[CarpeFelis]

I kind of wish Sam would move to New Orleans and hang out with Miss Louise (way better than that godawful Phyllis!) and Molly Shannon.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4.8 clips

Phil's Present for Frankiea

Letting Go

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4.9: Batceañera

Quote

Sam throws Frankie a Batceñera.

Promo:

Original air date: 4/23/20

[SeeMyDaintyPaws]

I want Sam’s silver heart bolero jacket sooooooo much!!

[heatherchandler]

What did Duke whisper to her dad?

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

What did Duke whisper to her dad?

We don't know, but it seemed like she probably told him how little she thought of him. And that was connected to her later reluctance to say good-bye to her uncle and his family.

[scrb]

Um it’s not cultural appropriation if you invite some Latinos (who haven’t been on the show)?

Some of my best friends are ...

 

It must have been what every adult wanted, to have a 15-year old dispense life wisdom.

 

Then everyone talking shit to the ex.

 

[Ottis]

I love the way this show is filmed, and the little vignettes that are about parts of life. And, lately, the wisdom Sam's daughters are showing. And as an introvert that would be greatly annoyed by having all these people around, I'm a tad bit jealous of the ease Sam has around all sorts of, and so many, people.

But ... I also get so tired of the messaging. Women power (of course the mariachi band was all women ... I've seen many a mariachi band, never one that is all female). Men suck, except the gay ones. 

And I don't know how Sam ever was married to Xander. Xander may have been a dick, or maybe he was simply uncomfortable with all the things Sam wanted and liked around her, and couldn't be like Sam. And he was very bad at explaining that and dealing with it. But the narrative now is, Xander is a dick. 

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Awww, my favorite part of the entire episode was Uncle Rich telling Xander how much he loved being part of the girls' lives and how fantastic they are.

As Frankie said, life is about choices and Xander has chosen to be a shitty father. As hard as it's been on Sam to be a single mom, the person who lost out the most was Xander because he has chosen not to be around his kids and really be a part of their lives. Even if he was sincere in what he said to Sam and he changes his attitude/involvement right now, he can never get back all the years he has already missed out on with his three kids.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Ottis said:

But ... I also get so tired of the messaging. Women power (of course the mariachi band was all women ... I've seen many a mariachi band, never one that is all female). Men suck, except the gay ones. 

I feel like I just saw a podcast that featured exactly that--the all-women mariachi band. I wouldn't be surprised if that was them because they're a thing.

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

As Frankie said, life is about choices and Xander has chosen to be a shitty father. As hard as it's been on Sam to be a single mom, the person who lost out the most was Xander because he has chosen not to be around his kids and really be a part of their lives. Even if he was sincere in what he said to Sam and he changes his attitude/involvement right now, he can never get back all the years he has already missed out on with his three kids.

This ep wound up being even more satisfying to me because I just watched a movie where there was a family whose father abandoned them and I just couldn't get on board with the happy family reconciliation at the end. It just seemed like everybody was acting like the adult child who kept rejecting the father was the one being unreasonable.

It was especially nice, here, the way that whatever Xander's shitty relationship with Sam (where he seems to be forever asking for money), his actual sin is how he's treated his daughters and frankly, their entire personality arcs are about the ways each one of them deals differently with that. Duke's just entered her own adolescent phase of dealing with it.

Edited April 25, 2020 by sistermagpie

[CarpeFelis]

18 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

What did Duke whisper to her dad?

I would love to know! I was hoping she’d tell Sam when Sam went into Duke’s room to tell her to say goodbye to everyone. Or that there’d be a conversation between Duke and either of her sisters where she tells them.

It couldn’t be better than what Rich said to him, though. That was awesome.

[Lone Wolf]

19 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

What did Duke whisper to her dad?

I think it's up to the viewer to decide. Clues, however: she whispered it because she didn't want to embarrass him, and the look on his face afterwards.

It wasn't "Thanks for coming, love you."  I'm pretty sure of that.

In case anyone's interested...

 

 

[txhorns79]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It was especially nice, here, the way that whatever Xander's shitty relationship with Sam (where he seems to be forever asking for money), his actual sin is how he's treated his daughters and frankly, their entire personality arcs are about the ways each one of them deals differently with that. Duke's just entered her own adolescent phase of dealing with it.

I don't know why, but for some reason I had thought the girls each had different fathers.  Like I didn't think Max was Xander's kid, and I wasn't sure about Duke.  However, after this episode, I guess Duke is his daughter. 

I really did like Sam this episode.  I appreciated that she listened to her friend about not acting angry and put out over her ex being present, regardless of how he was, because the event was not about her feelings.     

[sistermagpie]

32 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't know why, but for some reason I had thought the girls each had different fathers.  Like I didn't think Max was Xander's kid, and I wasn't sure about Duke.  However, after this episode, I guess Duke is his daughter. 

I thought that originally too. Maybe a combination of the three girls all looking completely different and the way at least the older two seem to make references to "my father" to Sam as if there's one guy that's important to her, rather than the guy being the father of all three girls. Like it's weird that they don't ever get into how presumably Max actually had more of a relationship with the guy if he stuck around long enough to have Duke who's got to be something like six years younger than Max.

[scrb]

Would the girls have turned out differently if daddy stuck around?

Or at least regularly saw them?

[Soobs]

I worked at an event last summer with an female mariachi band that are pretty well known in LA. Seems on brand for Sam and Frankie.

I've enjoyed the arc with the ex husband this season I've found it pretty balanced. The friend at the party telling her she needs to get over being pissed and in the prior episode the ex husband of the other friend telling Sam she doesn't really know his marriage. Her opinions aren't always the correct ones and are often colored by her disappointments.

I've definitely had that friend who (even if it's warranted) can't get over their anger at their ex and after awhile it just makes them look petty, bitter and it's boring to be around. You could see Sam struggling with wanting her girls to be happy the dad came but also not wanting him there at all.

Xander seems like a weirdo. Beyond clueless when he told the other guy he didn't have anything to apologize for, also the flashback in lawyer's office where he was holding his mother's hand. Then there was their hook up at the hotel where he just up and walked out. Did he have a head injury or something? I can't imagine Sam picking someone like that especially since the show has always depicted her father as being a sweet guy/ ghost.

[bilgistic]

I've mentioned before how much I like this show because of how it resonates with me. I am the oldest of three sisters and our mother was single from my age five to 17 when she married my stepdad. My "birth father" is a complete piece of absentee emotionally abusive garbage. Xander has nothing on my father.

My mom scraped by and did the best she could for us. She was a legal secretary and we struggled. She fought my father for years to get child support. Mom eventually had to have his wages garnished because he wouldn't pay voluntarily. He was a cop.

The show is pretty true to life for me as far as family dynamics--except for Sam's permissiveness and doormat nature. I think that's a generational thing. It seems to me that a lot of Generation X-ers and Millennials want to be "friends" rather than parents to their kids, or want their kids to "like" them. Sam is closer to my age (I'm 45) than my mother's (70).

My mother didn't let me get away with anything. No way in hell would I have had a boy in my bed(!!!) at 15, no less. I wasn't allowed to even close my bedroom door (or semi-close it) when my high school senior-year boyfriend was over, and we dated for 1.5 years. And I surely wouldn't have talked to my mom the way Sam's kids talk to her. The audacity! I know I was a nightmare teenager (emotional trainwreck), but I never said the things that those girls say to Sam. I'd have been grounded into my 20s.

Edited April 26, 2020 by bilgistic

[Arthur Jury]

So its official now ? Frankie is no longer "androgynous" she's a full on lesbian ? 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

47 minutes ago, Arthur Jury said:

So its official now ? Frankie is no longer "androgynous" she's a full on lesbian ? 

Why does Frankie liking a girl mean she is no longer androgynous? They're not mutually exclusive.

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Why does Frankie liking a girl mean she is no longer androgynous? They're not mutually exclusive.

Agreed. Also she just recently had sex with a male person.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4.9 clip

Sam and Jeff Talk on the Stairs

Frankie's typewriter

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

SEASON FINALE!

S04.E10: Listen to the Roosters

Quote

Sam and her girls live in the City of Angels.

Promo:

Original air date: 4/30/20

[FoundTime]

The Typewriter Song! That takes me back 😊 I have no idea what that cold open was all about but I was utterly delighted. That and the closing scene were probably my favorite parts of this ep. I  always have to learn anew with each ep to just surrender to the rhythms of the main story; once I do, there's always something there.

[xwordfanatik]

Love, love, love the last episode.  Uplifting and all-around wonderful.

[scrb]

Some nice moment, not sure the different segments are suppose to be connected though.

Maybe there are ride shares who have their big cars fitted with karaoke, but guessing it's just a nice TV idea.

So as many nice, joyful moments as these people have, why are they such miserable nits to each other, particularly the older girls?

Sam spoils them, never refuses them anything, have great moments and memories with them.  But Sam recognizes that they're assholes to her.

So these vignettes don't add up.

[sistermagpie]

I felt a bit lost at the end--did people have a specific interpretation of what the girls were supposed to be turning around and looking at? The only thing that came to mind was potentially their dad, but he didn't know they were at the beach and besides, he that moment seemed to be happening at sunset, like the other beach scenes, so before the dinner anyway? So I thought maybe it didn't mean specifically anything plot-wise?

[pasdetrois]

I think Sam (Adlon) is just singing the women's song in this episode. It's a collection of vignettes and ideas meant to reach out to women and acknowledge what they go through. I felt the love and acknowledgement through the screen.

We become invisible when society no longer views us through the "attractive" prism. My girlfriends and I began commenting on this when we were in our late 40s. The masterful point Adlon made is how many of us hated the unwanted attention in our youth, it can be a relief when it goes away, but it's another nod towards old age when it does go away.

The girls on the beach - they are the future, they have a future, and it will include all the beautiful and awful stuff that women go through. I think that last shot of them looking back at the camera was just artful whimsy.

The only sour note for me is Sam's mother and Celia Imrie. She's an accomplished actress but I find her characters are often smug. I don't like watching her scenes.

And if Xander is a narcissistic as they portray him, the way he was treated at dinner, and the fake check, is not gonna change him and prompt him to be a wonderful new person.

Edited May 1, 2020 by pasdetrois

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

And if Xander is a narcissistic as they portray him, the way he was treated at dinner, and the fake check, is not gonna change him and prompt him to be a wonderful new person.

Was it a fake check or a real check that she just was able to put that address on? Because it seems unlikely he'd take it into the place to cash it in person if it was fake.

[scrb]

They've covered that already, middled aged woman feeling undesired.

Must have been one of the big themes of the season.

One obvious direction for next season would be that the older girls get boyfriends and Sam clashes with them and further drive a wedge between Sam and the daughters.

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

8 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

I think Sam (Adlon) is just singing the women's song in this episode. It's a collection of vignettes and ideas meant to reach out to women and acknowledge what they go through. I felt the love and acknowledgement through the screen.

We become invisible when society no longer views us through the "attractive" prism. My girlfriends and I began commenting on this when we were in our late 40s. The masterful point Adlon made is how many of us hated the unwanted attention in our youth, it can be a relief when it goes away, but it's another nod towards old age when it does go away.

The girls on the beach - they are the future, they have a future, and it will include all the beautiful and awful stuff that women go through. I think that last shot of them looking back at the camera was just artful whimsy.

 

This works for me.  It also explains the old lady on the bench with Duke.

Speaking of Duke, I haven't heard "Shit fire" since I was a kid and my late father would say (actually, yell) it.  Of course, being raised in Tennessee, he pronounced it  "Shitfar".   Even though it was frequently directed at me in anger, enough time has gone by that it kind of made me nostalgic...and it sounded weird coming from her.

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Was it a fake check or a real check that she just was able to put that address on? Because it seems unlikely he'd take it into the place to cash it in person if it was fake.

I once wrote "Have a nice life" in the memo line of a check that I sent to someone after we broke up because I knew she'd see it when she endorsed it.  My take was that Sam similarly created that entity just to bust Xander's chops.  I suppose it could have been a fake check, but she seemed pretty sincere about wanting that part of their relationship to be over and it isn't difficult to create and fund an LLC, especially if she took out a loan.

That said, I don't know why Xander couldn't deposit it in the ATM unless he wanted to pull out a lot of money.  I've deposited checks in the tens of thousands in my banks ATM.  I didn't have use of all the funds immediately, but the checks went through.

Edited May 2, 2020 by Lone Wolf

[Door County Cherry]

What was on the check?  I couldn't see.  I just saw the the person cashing the check's reaction. 

[xwordfanatik]

Xander Hall (I think) is a loser.

[txhorns79]

33 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

What was on the check?  I couldn't see.  I just saw the the person cashing the check's reaction. 

Xander Hall is a Loser Who Abandoned His Kids, LLC.

It's a good burn, but it seemed like a strange choice to make if you actually want Xander to take more of an interest in his kids. 

[Door County Cherry]

1 minute ago, txhorns79 said:

It's a good burn, but it seemed like a strange choice to make if you actually want Xander to take more of an interest in his kids. 

It has been years and nothing she has done has really worked.  Even in last night's episode, he said he might try and see the kids before he leaves.

If he wanted to see his kids, he'd fight to see his kids regardless of what she did. 

[Ottis]

Sam has an adventure with diverse people. Yay? One thing you know will be true on this show? Straight white men are dicks.

Men of a certain age also become invisible, if they aren’t wealthy. In fact, depending on your looks, you become invisible at a younger age than women who become “unseen.” Because men will chase almost anything, so while it can become awful, it is being seen.

In fact, many men are *never* seen. But that is a story for another show.

The LA stuff was too much. Like being hit over the head by palm tree fronds. Some shows make a city almost another character. This was like an unwelcome visitor.

So you want Xander to do better and be there, and also you want him to have a nice life. And a random bank teller laughs at “have a nice life?” Why? Some episodes I enjoy. This one was too much politics. 

[txhorns79]

5 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

If he wanted to see his kids, he'd fight to see his kids regardless of what she did. 

I don't know.  I've seen divorces where it appeared that one parent's hostility kept the other parent from seeing the kids as much as they would have liked.  And I'm not saying that Xander has been kept from seeing the kids or anything like that, only that I do think hostility from an ex-spouse can negatively impact the relationship between the kids and a non-custodial parent.     

[sistermagpie]

 

10 minutes ago, Ottis said:

So you want Xander to do better and be there, and also you want him to have a nice life. And a random bank teller laughs at “have a nice life?” Why?

Yes, she's ending their own relationship ("Have a nice life") with him, particularly after he showed that as usual, the money was his priority for being there, but recognizes that him having a good relationship with his daughters would make them happy so she should want that for their sakes. I think the stuff she was talking about in the documentary was political in the way the personal is political.

There are, after all, plenty of series about aging and their own version of this loss, no longer feeling virile, for instance. Middle aged men, plenty of whom aren't movie star handsome, are the leads of plenty of cable dramas. (The female anti-heroes are more often comedies.)

Of course, the trouble with getting into the "invisible men" issue is those politics are directly tied to a whole Incel movement that's violent. The idea that men just go after any woman seems like one of the many myths that drives the entitlement of that movement, even while it rejects most women as not good enough. Being a woman does not automatically mean you've got your pick of sexual conquests even when you're 25.

5 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't know.  I've seen divorces where it appeared that one parent's hostility kept the other parent from seeing the kids as much as they would have liked.  And I'm not saying that Xander has been kept from seeing the kids or anything like that, only that I do think hostility from an ex-spouse can negatively impact the relationship between the kids and a non-custodial parent.     

I think all the evidence points to his abandonment of his kids not being about Sam, but himself. Maybe that's part of the point of the flashbacks, to show that they didn't start out with an ugly, acrimonious divorce. It's just hard to tell now because after all these years Sam's (and everyone else's) view of him has been shaped by his abandonment.

It's not just that he doesn't see them that often, he also says he's going to be there and then doesn't come. Or avoids an important occasion where the kid's asked him to come. And sends requests for money through the kids. Or gives Duke a phone behind Sam's back and then, it seems, doesn't actually use it to even keep in contact with her. It seems like each girl has had some scene where she was personally hurt by him, sometimes even without Sam knowing until afterwards.

 

[CarpeFelis]

4 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

I once wrote "Have a nice life" in the memo line of a check that I sent to someone after we broke up because I knew she'd see it when she endorsed it. 

A college friend knew someone who wrote a check to the phone company (back when Ma Bell was a monopoly) made out to “Fuck You”... and it got cashed.

[pasdetrois]

Quote

Speaking of Duke, I haven't heard "Shit fire" since I was a kid and my late father would say (actually, yell) it. 

"Shit fire and save matches."

Quote

Men of a certain age also become invisible, if they aren’t wealthy.

Have you been to a senior center lately? The dudes are swarmed, in part because there are more women than men. Also, years ago I briefly attended some wretched large social gatherings for divorced people, and the men had their pick. But I agree that many men are overlooked.

[Lone Wolf]

21 hours ago, scrb said:

 

Maybe there are ride shares who have their big cars fitted with karaoke, but guessing it's just a nice TV idea.

 

I'm inclined to agree.  It seems like more of a party bus kind of thing.  I've taken a lot of cars in some pretty happenin' cities, including LA.  The best I've ever seen was free water and a cardboard box with candy, mints, gum, tissues, etc. and a nice sign saying "Help Yourself'.  

 

4 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

"Shit fire and save matches."

 

"Fuck a duck and see what hatches."

My father never said anything beyond "Shitfar".  God knows where I picked up the rest.

I liked this season.  Just discovering "Martha" and Tom Waits made it well worthwhile.

 

[TVbitch]

To be honest, I will probably have to read some review to tell me exactly what message I was suppose to take from the finale. 

More unbelievable than the karaoke ride share was the fact that two young kids immediately started singing Cheap Trick's "Surrender" like they had just been listening to it on their iPods! : D

[scrb]

Yeah Cheap Trick isn’t something a 11 year old (or however old she’s suppose to be) is likely to know.

Even the oldest daughter probably doesn’t know.

They were able to explore such old music at their tender ages?

Or they liked the same music Sam would like?

Or does Sam still have a subscription to the Columbia House CD club?

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 5/1/2020 at 6:31 PM, Lone Wolf said:

This works for me.  It also explains the old lady on the bench with Duke.

I think the old lady was future Duke. 

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4.10 clip

Being A Woman

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Goodbye, Xander