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ElectricBoogaloo

S05.E03: The Mountain of Ghosts

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"I want to murder everything."  "More than usual?"  Ha ha.

Fen and Margo fighting, so badass.

What a gut-wrenching conversation and the top of the mountain between Eliot and Alice and so well-acted.

Oh no, a falling out between Margo and Fen & Josh. 

Well, that Dark King is certainly charasmatic.  I think I'll like having him as the badguy.  He was there to honor his father?  Did he kill him?

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I am not sure where I stand on this one. I am still really bitter about Quentin. What worked for me with the Eliot/Alice stuff: pretty much 100% of Eliot (how great is Hale Appleman? Seriously.) The way he talked about loving Quentin. The way he heartbreakingly said he never got to talk to him. Heartwrenching. Also, Alice saying she loved Quentin the way he was. I think that is something he would have really wanted to hear. Oh, and Alice's eyebrow raise. 😆 What didn't work? Alice apparently knowing Quentin's feelings and how much Eliot must be hurting but still acting like a complete asshole to him on the hike. More of Alice mopes with no storyline outside of it. 

The Dark King reveal was a little meh to me. He is quite likeable and charismatic, so that is good. 

I really enjoyed Fen, Margo and Josh until the end. I think Margo sold her feelings short when she was desperately trying to save Josh and Fen. The unearned drama is not something I enjoy. I did love the fights and the werewolf callback and Margo wanting to have a complicated emotion. 

In the C plot, how boring was the storyline for Julia and Penny? It brought everything to a screeching halt for me. I liked the new characters, Dani (?) and her sister but it was obvious where the entire thing was going. Meanwhile, I have no interest in Penny and Julia together and even less investment in whether they get a normal life together. I think they are trying to sell it as hard as they can, but I am just not buying.

In the D plot, where the hell was Kady? 

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When Robin of Locksley showed up, I knew it had to be for more than a random cameo so I kept waiting for him to try to kill Eliot. No surprise that he turned out to be the Dark King.  But he never did show them the spell to use on the Takers, did he?

All we know about him so far is that his family is from earth, he was selling rare objects in Loria and getting drunk before he became king, and the love of his life was a magician who died very young.

There is one more thing about the Dark King that might be considered a spoiler (I actually don't know what to do with this information in terms of understanding what's going on) so I'm going to put it under the spoiler tag just to be safe:

Spoiler

Sean Maguire, who played the Dark King in this episode, is also listed on IMDB as playing Lord Effingham, the sexist pig man who came to Julia looking for Quentin in S5.E1

I know Eliot is grief stricken right now, but I thought that being back in Fillory would make him want to seek out Quentin's descendants. When the mystery guy showed up, I thought he would end up being related to Quentin. I guess I was just jumping to conclusions.

The way that Eliot's face crumpled when he was talking to Alice about Quentin just broke my heart. I'm glad he finally got to talk about Quentin and how guilty he feels about the way things ended between them because he's been carrying that around weight for too long and it's crushing him.

While it's great that Alice loved Quentin just the way he was, it makes it seem even shittier that she KNEW all this time that Eliot was hurting and she didn't give him an ounce of sympathy. You're not the only one who is hurting and misses him, lady. Your pain isn't greater than everyone else's.

But now they've bonded and Eliot has another friend, which he desperately needs right now so there's that.

This might be a really dumb question, but if dropping Quentin's essence into the pit of Mordor returns that tiny piece of his soul to him in the underworld, doesn't dropping that letter into the hole mean that it will find its way to him too?

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14 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When Robin of Locksley showed up, I knew it had to be for more than a random cameo so I kept waiting for him to try to kill Eliot. No surprise that he turned out to be the Dark King.  But he never did show them the spell to use on the Takers, did he?

All we know about him so far is that his family is from earth, he was selling rare objects in Loria and getting drunk before he became king, and the love of his life was a magician who died very young.

There is one more thing about the Dark King that might be considered a spoiler (I actually don't know what to do with this information in terms of understanding what's going on) so I'm going to put it under the spoiler tag just to be safe:

  Hide contents

Sean Maguire, who played the Dark King in this episode, is also listed on IMDB as playing Lord Effingham, the sexist pig man who came to Julia looking for Quentin in S5.E1

I know Eliot is grief stricken right now, but I thought that being back in Fillory would make him want to seek out Quentin's descendants. When the mystery guy showed up, I thought he would end up being related to Quentin. I guess I was just jumping to conclusions.

The way that Eliot's face crumpled when he was talking to Alice about Quentin just broke my heart. I'm glad he finally got to talk about Quentin and how guilty he feels about the way things ended between them because he's been carrying that around weight for too long and it's crushing him.

While it's great that Alice loved Quentin just the way he was, it makes it seem even shittier that she KNEW all this time that Eliot was hurting and she didn't give him an ounce of sympathy. You're not the only one who is hurting and misses him, lady. Your pain isn't greater than everyone else's.

But now they've bonded and Eliot has another friend, which he desperately needs right now so there's that.

This might be a really dumb question, but if dropping Quentin's essence into the pit of Mordor returns that tiny piece of his soul to him in the underworld, doesn't dropping that letter into the hole mean that it will find its way to him too?

I think, even if it goy to him, it would arrive in present day. So, he might still get it but not in time to save him. 

And agree on Alice. I thought she was selfish last week with Julia too. She isn't grieving with his other loved ones, she is acting like her grief is the only grief. 

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19 minutes ago, The Companion said:

And agree on Alice. I thought she was selfish last week with Julia too. She isn't grieving with his other loved ones, she is acting like her grief is the only grief. 

Yes, she was annoying me too last week (and the week before) because no matter how intense Alice's relationship was with Quentin, she only knew Quentin for like 1-2 years (I can never tell how much time has passed on this show), half of which they weren't even dating and sometimes not even speaking to each other. Julia knew him her entire life and was best friends with him forever, yet Alice was acting like it was so much worse for her that Quentin was gone. First of all, it's not a competition to see who is in more pain. But secondly, you're not the only one who misses him and is gutted by the loss.

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4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I know Eliot is grief stricken right now, but I thought that being back in Fillory would make him want to seek out Quentin's descendants. When the mystery guy showed up, I thought he would end up being related to Quentin. I guess I was just jumping to conclusions.

Is nothing going to come of the child Q had in the other timeline? The story showed him marrying a woman, having a child, grieving her death, falling in love with E, and raising the son with him. We are apparently only supposed to care about the Q&E implications, but the child would be significant to me. It was to Q - he told his dad when he knew he was losing him. YMMV, obviously.

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Yes, she was annoying me too last week (and the week before) because no matter how intense Alice's relationship was with Quentin, she only knew Quentin for like 1-2 years (I can never tell how much time has passed on this show), half of which they weren't even dating and sometimes not even speaking to each other. Julia knew him her entire life and was best friends with him forever, yet Alice was acting like it was so much worse for her that Quentin was gone. First of all, it's not a competition to see who is in more pain. But secondly, you're not the only one who misses him and is gutted by the loss.

I can't stand Alice, but I kind of understand her here. She is completely immersed in her grief, wallowing in it, and in my experience, you really can't see outside yourself in that state. I don't think I can say how much pain she SHOULD be in. She's depressed. You feel how you feel, regardless of how long she'd known him. I think Q saw her in a way no one had, not just as a cold prodigy, and it affected her. Consider she got little to no love at home...it was probably a huge shift. If we didn't see that, maybe the writers or actress didn't sell it adequately. 

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I did like Alice saying Q loved Eliot. Yes, it made her earlier behavior even worse, but thank Beebo someone said it.

I'd love to see Eliot and Julia together. They've never interacted much, but Q was so important to them both. I was done with Alice when she made the golem. I understand she's stuck in her feelings, but that was wrong.

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1 hour ago, RedInk said:

Is nothing going to come of the child Q had in the other timeline? The story showed him marrying a woman, having a child, grieving her death, falling in love with E, and raising the son with him. We are apparently only supposed to care about the Q&E implications, but the child would be significant to me. It was to Q - he told his dad when he knew he was losing him. YMMV, obviously.

I can't stand Alice, but I kind of understand her here. She is completely immersed in her grief, wallowing in it, and in my experience, you really can't see outside yourself in that state. I don't think I can say how much pain she SHOULD be in. She's depressed. You feel how you feel, regardless of how long she'd known him. I think Q saw her in a way no one had, not just as a cold prodigy, and it affected her. Consider she got little to no love at home...it was probably a huge shift. If we didn't see that, maybe the writers or actress didn't sell it adequately. 

Agreed that I really want some payoff regarding their kid. I suppose the argument is that the life never happened, but I don't really love that answer when it is an ongoing part of the show.

I understand Alice is wrapped up in herself and I understand that she has no role models that aren't narcissistic assholes, but that doesn't mean she isn't being selfish and objectively terrible to the people who also loved Quentin. I honestly think that the writers completely failed by throwing Quentin and Alice back together the way they did. It didn't work for me and I complained about it last season a lot. 

I have swung back around to angry/bitter (sorry y'all) about Alice's statement that she knew and loved Quentin. This is payoff to a story we didn't see. Here is the thing, I suspect we were actually robbed of a fairly substantial story relating to Alice's character growth, and I suspect it is because the showrunners, in their infinite stupidity, were so committed to surprising everyone with Quentin's death that they allowed a storyline to be written for which no payoff was actually available. Hear me out:

When Quentin had the threesome, Alice was hurt and upset and she had every right to be regardless of her background. But she was particularly upset because she grew up watching her parents weaponize sex. Her parents were the most toxic example of non-monogamy available and she feared ending up in a pattern like theirs. It made the threesome particularly hurtful for her. Mind you, I think she had every right to walk away for the cheating, but even more so given her background.

So we swing back around again and Quentin is in some ways like her parents in the sense that he seems like he would be happiest in a polyamourous relationship, but completely unlike her parents in that he loves deeply. He would never weaponize his relationships. 

Had he survived, I suspect the story would have included a rather significant arc for Alice where she gets to the statement she made in this episode. Specifically, where she realizes she loves Quentin because of who he is. Because of his deep capacity to love and because of the way he loves. 

But instead we got a rushed reunion and sudden knowledge of Quentin's feelings which just didn't work because there was no build up to the payoff. Suddenly, she isn't at all threatened or hurt that she isn't Quentin's one and only. This is a huge shift in her character for no apparent reason. Now, you could argue that the reason is that it is a lot easier to share the affections of someone who is dead. They will never have to work out the details. However, the way she so assertively announced that she knew Quentin loved Eliot and she was okay with it and in fact welcomed it just felt like the end of an arc we never got on screen.

I mean, I am okay with in for a few reasons, not the least of which is how important it was for the fans who saw themselves in Quentin to hear that they are lovable because of who they are and not despite of it. So many people who struggle with depression need to hear that. So do bisexual people who often feel like they are pressured to live in one world or the other by both sides of the fence, so to speak. Oh, it's okay you are bi because you are with a partner of the opposite gender and we can all just pretend that your identity is immaterial. See, e.g., the Larry King comment about Anna Paquin being a "non-practicing bisexual."The message to bisexuals is so often: you are lovable despite your identity. To be clear, that isn't saying that all bisexuals would want a polyamourous relationships or would be happy in them. Loving Quentin the way he is is less about that aspect and more about recognizing that the things that are lovable about him are the things that are complex about him and/or that he should be loved for who he is including that portion of his identity. Does that make sense? 

I am also okay with it because, as noted by jelaine above, Eliot needed someone to say it. He didn't see how hard Quentin worked to save him. He didn't know whether Quentin felt the same way. He was feeling grief and guilt and heartache and he needed to know that Quentin did love him. He should have heard it from Quentin, but that is a whole different complaint. And we needed it, I think. To know that they aren't completely sweeping the mutual affection under the rug.

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9 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

All we know about him so far is that his family is from earth

I know Eliot is grief stricken right now, but I thought that being back in Fillory would make him want to seek out Quentin's descendants. When the mystery guy showed up, I thought he would end up being related to Quentin. I guess I was just jumping to conclusions.

I don't think you were wrong. I think the dark king is Quentin's son... which also kinda makes him Elliot's son, so good thing those two didn't sleep with each other.

Afterall, his parents (Q and E) were magicians from earth...

It's really the only way from a writing perspective to make the mystery of who the dark king is ineresting and to pay the Q's son thing off.

I know the mosaic timeline mostly happened before even the Chatwins came to Fillory, but the dark king seems to be immortal, so that could still work out.

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I am glad that Jason Ralph is getting paid this season even if he's technically not on the show anymore. He has so far appeared in every episode, in one form or another. I gasped to hear his voice calling to Eliot in this one. In many ways it's like he's still with us.

That being the case I had myself convinced he might actually turn out to be the Dark King after all, and was really disappointed when it turned out to be Sean Maguire. Don't get me wrong, I welcome Maguire to the show, but I'm holding out hope we get Quentin back in some form. Clearly Jason Ralph is open to participating in some capacity - they can't use his image and voice without his permission. 

Quote

This might be a really dumb question, but if dropping Quentin's essence into the pit of Mordor returns that tiny piece of his soul to him in the underworld, doesn't dropping that letter into the hole mean that it will find its way to him too?

I think, even if it got to him, it would arrive in present day. So, he might still get it but not in time to save him. 

Except the enchanted stamps are supposed to deliver the letter to whatever time is specified, and the envelope clearly says to Quentin before he enters the Seam. However, you might have to put it in a regular mailbox, which Eliot was about to do last episode. We never saw him mail the other letters to Josh so I'm not sure what the protocol is.

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Is nothing going to come of the child Q had in the other timeline? 

To be fair we're in a different timeline now so he never existed here. 

Quote

I think the dark king is Quentin's son... which also kinda makes him Elliot's son, so good thing those two didn't sleep with each other.

Afterall, his parents (Q and E) were magicians from earth...

Then the Dark King is from another timeline. Which frankly I'm not sure actually exists - technically Margo prevented that timeline from occurring at all. I think that's different than Jane Chatwin resetting time a bunch of times. Margo went back in time and stopped Eliot and Q from going into the clock portal at all, so she effectively prevented it from ever happening.

Edited by iMonrey
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9 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Then the Dark King is from another timeline. Which frankly I'm not sure actually exists - technically Margo prevented that timeline from occurring at all. I think that's different than Jane Chatwin resetting time a bunch of times. Margo went back in time and stopped Eliot and Q from going into the clock portal at all, so she effectively prevented it from ever happening.

That timeline still exists. Elliot (or was it Quentin? Whoever survived longer) gave Jane Chatwin the key at the end. It's how she got it in the first place and could rewind time so many times. She never did the mosaic to get the key.

If the key still exists from that timeline, so does Quentin's son.

Edited by Prower
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31 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

 

To be fair we're in a different timeline now so he never existed here. 

Then the Dark King is from another timeline. Which frankly I'm not sure actually exists - technically Margo prevented that timeline from occurring at all. I think that's different than Jane Chatwin resetting time a bunch of times. Margo went back in time and stopped Eliot and Q from going into the clock portal at all, so she effectively prevented it from ever happening.

I think my difficulty is two fold: 1. There is still fallout from that timeline including memories that shouldn't exist and the key, which makes it less clear. 2. I have always thought it strange that neither Quentin nor Eliot ever brought up their son. Even if he never existed, they should still feel something. They remember him. It has always felt like a big, hanging loose end to me.

That being said, I don't think I want the answer to be that the Dark King is their son. I don't know. I think it would just be a little depressing to have the story go in that direction and to have Elliot not recognize his own kid (and be attracted to him *cringe*).

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4 hours ago, The Companion said:

That being said, I don't think I want the answer to be that the Dark King is their son. I don't know. I think it would just be a little depressing to have the story go in that direction and to have Elliot not recognize his own kid (and be attracted to him *cringe*).

Or their son doesn't recognize the names of both of his fathers.

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11 hours ago, RedInk said:

Is nothing going to come of the child Q had in the other timeline?

I also was thinking he could be the Dark King, but am now thinking maybe DK could just be a descendant of his? Like, multiple generations down the line? Would make the almost-sex with El less squicky. 

Edited by generate789 · Reason: hit post too soon
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Even a masterclass in acting delivered by HA can’t shake my feeling that I’m being manipulated by the EPs as SG serves up grief porn for a relationship she refused to put on screen for more than a few fleeting minutes. 

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Oh shit! I knew that was the Dark King as soon as he busted out with that accent. He kinda reminded me of Mike so I can see why Eliot almost, you know. Now the fun begins because, who is he really?

That was some good shit with Eliot and Alice. Some really good shit. Alice being kinda shitty to Eliot didn't really bother me. None of these people were her friends and she also didn't know how serious it was with Q and El. I thought she took it well, and now they are bonded. I've always blamed the writers more than the character for her lack of a bond with anyone but Q.

Fen was fucking awesome, I really do love her so much.  I also could tell she and Josh had a thing. I think I'm getting better at figuring out this show.

Poor Julia, stuck with the boring story.

Didn't the DK say his family was from Earth? I'll have to watch again. I'm thinking more Chatwin and less Q's descendant at this point. 

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Normally I would re-watch the prior season on Netflix when it drops but didn't with season 4 since I found it to be the weakest season, and also because it culminates in Q's death, which this season will not let me forget by having/not having Q in every episode so far.

So can someone remind me why High King Margo was banished?

Also the minute that guy showed up and dispatched the Taker with ease I knew he was the Dark King.

 

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2 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Normally I would re-watch the prior season on Netflix when it drops but didn't with season 4 since I found it to be the weakest season, and also because it culminates in Q's death, which this season will not let me forget by having/not having Q in every episode so far.

So can someone remind me why High King Margo was banished?

Also the minute that guy showed up and dispatched the Taker with ease I knew he was the Dark King.

 

I am admittedly a bit foggy, but there was a prophecy that Fen would overthrow Margo, and she got boxed into doing it by a neighboring queen. If I recall, they needed magic from the neighboring kingdom. They needed something, and the queen said only if Margo got ousted. Margo wanted to go search for the axes so that Eliot could be saved, so she was ultimately in on the plot. The people of the dessert hated Fillorians and would never have let her in without the banishment. There was a fairly emotional scene where Fen loudly criticized and banished her while whispering apologies. Both teared up. Margo then set off to the dessert with a mix that I think Josh made her. The next episode was the musical episode, one of the shining moments in a less than stellar season, IMO.

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What was Professor Lipson doing to Penny's neck? I didn't get that at all. Suddenly they were at Brakebills (I assume) and she's doing something to the back of his neck when Julia walks in. It seemed like he was being treated for something but I'll be damned if I know what.

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4 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

What was Professor Lipson doing to Penny's neck? I didn't get that at all. Suddenly they were at Brakebills (I assume) and she's doing something to the back of his neck when Julia walks in. It seemed like he was being treated for something but I'll be damned if I know what.

I think it was something to lessen the effects of the tone that girl exposed Penny to that causes him to involuntarily travel.

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23 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Or their son doesn't recognize the names of both of his fathers.

I think he's playing some kind of game. He is the dark king for a reason.

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My second viewing I always catch more.

Eliot mentioned that the Mountain of Ghosts was something Rupert was looking for. He hasn't been mentioned for a while.

The guy that checked them into the tournament was Bick of the House Pickwick. Missed that the first time. 

I did notice this the first time, Quentin's first "Eliot" that Eliot heard in the woods sounded just like when he said it when El died. 

When the taker gets Eliot's bag it is out of sight for a few before the DK brings it back. Now that we know who that is I wonder if he did a switch on that bottle. He does know illusion magic and I definitely think he knew who El and Alice were. For what purpose, I'm not yet sure.

The DK lays on a pillow that looks like a mosaic.

When El shows Alice the letter, he fiddles a lot with that ring on his finger. It was noticable. Just nervous of what he was going to say or something more?

I absolutely loved Alice when El was confessing. She knew there was more to it and she was so encouraging and understanding. I don't think it came out of nowhere her knowing, I could definitely tell last season she knew something was up. She may do stupid things sometimes but she's not stupid. I love that once she was over thinking he was judging her,  that she knew there was more to it, they bonded. I've always wanted her to bond with other people besides Q. She had started to with Penny40 but then he died.

So, Margo looked absolutely destroyed after talking with Fen and Josh in the cage. She's deciding if choosing being a King is more important than her friends. I think she finally saw Fen in this episode.

Alice's eyebrow raise at Eliot's saying he almost fucked the Dark King was gold. This episode has me hopeful for Alice's story for the first time in a while.

 

 

 

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On 1/31/2020 at 6:59 AM, The Companion said:

I am admittedly a bit foggy, but there was a prophecy that Fen would overthrow Margo, and she got boxed into doing it by a neighboring queen. If I recall, they needed magic from the neighboring kingdom. They needed something, and the queen said only if Margo got ousted. Margo wanted to go search for the axes so that Eliot could be saved, so she was ultimately in on the plot. The people of the dessert hated Fillorians and would never have let her in without the banishment. There was a fairly emotional scene where Fen loudly criticized and banished her while whispering apologies. Both teared up. Margo then set off to the dessert with a mix that I think Josh made her. The next episode was the musical episode, one of the shining moments in a less than stellar season, IMO

Thank you for this. I remember the quest for the axes but forgot that Fen had to overthrow Margo for the throne.

What was the reason given for Dark King and his overtaking the throne for himself? It was mentioned during the play Eliot and Margo watched and unfortunately I have removed that episode from my dvr. I thought it was because he was tired of being ruled by children of earth? But that can't be right because Fen was ruling at the time, and the Dark King mention his parents were of earth...I need to start paying better attention.

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1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Thank you for this. I remember the quest for the axes but forgot that Fen had to overthrow Margo for the throne.

What was the reason given for Dark King and his overtaking the throne for himself? It was mentioned during the play Eliot and Margo watched and unfortunately I have removed that episode from my dvr. I thought it was because he was tired of being ruled by children of earth? But that can't be right because Fen was ruling at the time, and the Dark King mention his parents were of earth...I need to start paying better attention.

Per the play, the Takers were coming and they didn't take the threat seriously/were too worried about their friends and getting home. That was changed with the time travel, so presumably it is now that the rulers disappeared and he was the one who could control the Takers.

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He does know illusion magic and I definitely think he knew who El and Alice were. For what purpose, I'm not yet sure.

I'm not convinced he knows how they are. He offered them a ride to Whitespire and they politely refused. I think if he knew who they were he would have insisted or simply had them arrested on the spot and dragged back with him. I guess he could be playing a long game but I didn't see any evidence he knew who they were. Remember, this is taking place 300 years later in Fillory - there's no reason to suspect a former King or Queen from 300 years ago would be wandering around.

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If he didn't know who they were before, he now knows that he met someone from earth named Eliot with someone else from earth named Alice and they are mourning the loss of their friend Quentin which should raise the slightest suspicions. That would be like if someone in our world met two people hanging out together named Hitler and Stalin. Wouldn't that seem weird enough for you to notice?

Even if he's not the most well versed in Fillorian history, he should find it suspicious that he just encountered three of the four names of recent kings and queens of Fillory. Even though it's been hundreds of years, he defeated Fen and Josh who succeeded Eliot/Margo/Quentin/Alice so he should at least recognize their names from the annual passion play (and the Fillorians know enough about what Eliot looks like that when they ran into him in the forest, they assumed he had dressed up as Eliot).

But that's assuming he didn't know who they were. Considering that he was just looking for Quentin on earth in the previous episode, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he ran into Eliot and Alice on purpose. I don't know what his long game could be at this point, but it just wouldn't surprise me at all if this was part of his plan.

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On 1/30/2020 at 7:58 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

There is one more thing about the Dark King that might be considered a spoiler (I actually don't know what to do with this information in terms of understanding what's going on) so I'm going to put it under the spoiler tag just to be safe:

That spoiler reminded me of something that occurred to me during that "sexist pig" scene. 

That if somebody wanted to send Juila off on a quest for their own benefit, then telling her she's not good enough for it would be the number 1 way to ensure it would happen. 

On 1/31/2020 at 12:28 PM, chrisvee said:

Even a masterclass in acting delivered by HA can’t shake my feeling that I’m being manipulated by the EPs as SG serves up grief porn for a relationship she refused to put on screen for more than a few fleeting minutes. 

This. I've felt manipulate all season, I don't like it. 

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