S12.E05: Fugitive of the Judoon

[Llywela]

40 minutes ago, Lokiberry said:

Could this be the Series 6B theory? At the end of series 6 the Time Lords grab the second Doctor, send his companions back to their own time, and sentence him to forced regeneration and exile on Earth. We never see the regeneration onscreen. Series 7 starts with the third Doctor stumbling out of his TARDIS and passing out . The theory goes that maybe the Time Lords made Two work for them for awhile before regenerating him and dumping him on Earth. 

Isn't it possible that during  this time, Two naturally regenerated into Doctor Ruth (I'm totally calling her that. I don't care), she escaped from them, they eventually found her, made her regenerate into Three,  wiped his memory of the whole thing (Three had some of his memories erased), added  another regeneration so no one would know what they'd been up to, and then exiled him on Earth?

It is definitely a plausible theory, but there are as many complications with this one as the pre-Hartnell theory. For one thing, it messes up the regeneration sequence ahead of the limit being hit with Smith (although I actually really like the idea that Ruth was in there as the real reason Smith turned out to be the last of that regeneration cycle, rather than Tennant's aborted regeneration counting after all). For another, there's already that two Doctor story in the 80s of visibly much older Two and Jamie meeting up with Six and Peri for an adventure, which has been much lauded as 'season 6b' since there isn't really anywhere in Jamie's time with Two for this adventure to naturally slot in (although the programme makers at the end of The War Games clearly meant to imply that the Doctor's regeneration had already begun, so the original season 6b theory has always been on shaky ground). Then there's the fact that Three is still wearing Two's outfit when he collapses out of the TARDIS.

Everything about Ruth!Doctor's persona and TARDIS interior and interactions with the Gallifreyan tag team sent after her, all of it screamed pre-Hartnell...everything except the police box TARDIS shell and the number of regenerations pre-limit. Hartnell's Doctor definitely saw himself as the first - "The original, you might say" - and I'd hate for that to be taken away from him. There would have to be a really elegant story solution to reconcile me to that. Plus, whether I like it or not (I don't) Clara met the Doctor as a little white boy.

Basically, whichever way it turns out, there are a whole bunch of anachronisms that are going to have to be resolved somehow! I am intrigued to see how they end up playing it - reserving judgement for now, except to admit being very wary.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Llywela

[libgirl2]

31 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Everything about Ruth!Doctor's persona and TARDIS interior and interactions with the Gallifreyan tag team sent after her, all of it screamed pre-Hartnell...everything except the police box TARDIS shell and the number of regenerations pre-limit. Hartnell's Doctor definitely saw himself as the first - "The original, you might say" - and I'd hate for that to be taken away from him. There would have to be a really elegant story solution to reconcile me to that. Plus, whether I like it or not (I don't) Clara met the Doctor as a little white boy.

Basically, whichever way it turns out, there are a whole bunch of anachronisms that are going to have to be resolved somehow! I am intrigued to see how they end up playing it - reserving judgement for now, except to admit being very wary.

If they do, I don't know if I could keep watching this show. I am willing to accept a female Doctor, a Doctor of color, but not Hartnell being second. 

I am wary and worried. I hope they don't screw this up. I am a fan of 40 years and I don't want this show messed with beyond repair. No Bobby Ewing in the shower scene please. 

[Wulfsige]

I have no clue what's going on but enjoyed it anyway.  I haven't seen any Classic Who which I gather may be a disadvantage. I squealed, cough, I mean, was surprised  when Captain Jack showed up. (I'm too old and dignified to squeal, just so we're clear.) Heh, at least Graham had any apprehensions that he'd been abducted by unfriendly aliens allayed quickly.  

One thing that irked me to all hell was that 'Ruth' was resentful that she'd lived in an isolated lighthouse as a child. Are you kidding me!? I'd have loved to have lived in an isolated lighthouse! I still would! Okay, so that was probably all false memories, but still!

[DanaK]

20 minutes ago, Wulfsige said:

One thing that irked me to all hell was that 'Ruth' was resentful that she'd lived in an isolated lighthouse as a child. Are you kidding me!? I'd have loved to have lived in an isolated lighthouse! I still would! Okay, so that was probably all false memories, but still!

I got the impression that the memories (false ones of course) were so bad, especially of her parents, in order to discourage her from coming back home and to the lighthouse and discover the chameleon arch. I just wonder how much of her human life was false and how long she was really living as a human. And I wonder why she and Lee came to present day Earth

[marina to]

I wondered why my Jack Harkness/Thirtieth Doctor fanfic got over 150 hits in 36 hours. Yay for the return of Jack!

[elle]

9 hours ago, DanaK said:

9 hours ago, Wulfsige said:

One thing that irked me to all hell was that 'Ruth' was resentful that she'd lived in an isolated lighthouse as a child. Are you kidding me!? I'd have loved to have lived in an isolated lighthouse! I still would! Okay, so that was probably all false memories, but still!

I got the impression that the memories (false ones of course) were so bad, especially of her parents, in order to discourage her from coming back home and to the lighthouse and discover the chameleon arch. I just wonder how much of her human life was false and how long she was really living as a human. And I wonder why she and Lee came to present day Earth

Good theory!  As to why human!Ruth would have hated how she grew up, I'll say the old axiom of "mileage may vary".  I can say without a doubt my child would have resented being isolated like that whereas I would not have minded as much.

All of which, now that I think about it, it makes sense that Ruth would be in a very people oriented profession such as a tour guide.  I did kind of nod in recognition that she got someone's interest in the cathedral by pointing out it was used as a location for HP.

As much as I enjoyed this episode, I am like many of you wary about where this will go.  Been burned before and am still very bitter about what was done with the Cyberman and the Brigadier.  I really hope that Chibnall leaves the original story alone.  We've already seen Moffat mess with One's personality.  We don't need to find out he really isn't "One".

Where can I read more about the theories referenced (6b, etc)?

Quote

I wondered why my Jack Harkness/Thirtieth Doctor fanfic got over 150 hits in 36 hours. Yay for the return of Jack!

Is 30 named Ruth?  I realized you meant 13th.  My mistake.

(Hi marina to!  Link please and SPOON!)

Edited January 29, 2020 by elle

[The Companion]

 

On 1/26/2020 at 8:41 PM, DanaK said:

 

I have to hand it to the producers, the actors, and the BBC. They kept some major secrets all these months, especially Barrowman. I don't know how they kept these spoilers from getting out to the fanbase (some probably knew them but it didn't really get out to the wider fanbase). Kudos to them

Sadly, I did get spoiled. I missed that there would he a major reveal and had to time shift a day. Still, it was so amazing to have Jack back and I am stunned by the fact that they kept it so quiet.

On 1/26/2020 at 9:25 PM, Rhetorica said:

Just wondering, could the Lone Cyberman be Bill? That pain would still be raw for the Doctor, yes?

I still hold out hope for Danny Pink. Yes, I know I am the only one. 

Danny Pink fan club, party of one.

On 1/27/2020 at 3:19 AM, DanaK said:

Some favorite bits:
- Everything with Jack and the companions, but especially when he enters into the scene. I was pretty much cheering because it was so unexpected

- The Doctor walking back to her Tardis at the end looking shellshocked

- That whole sequence where the Doctor unburies the Tardis and Ruth breaks the glass and gets her memories back. The music was fantastic

- The sequences in the car with the Doctor questioning Ruth

I have to say, for whatever reason, I keep doubting Chibnall would go this deep into an arc and possibly the show's lore (I've never seen anything else he's written, other than Broadchurch and a few previous Doctor Who episodes). So he has surprised me with this arc. I keep thinking he wouldn't do this or that and he keeps surprising me. I totally didn't expect him to bring back Jack.

Agreed on all points. 

I was spoiled that Ruth might be the Doctor, so she starts digging and I thought: holy hell. It's a TARDIS! 

On 1/27/2020 at 7:33 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

I was totally unspoiled, but half-expecting River (sweeties). I recognized Jack's voice almost immediately though, and went through a few seconds of 'No. No? Really? YES! SQUEEEEE!' as he appeared. I love everything about Jack and I am just thrilled to see him. I grinned at the gleam in his eye when he realized 13 is a female, and grinned a little harder knowing it didn't really matter to him either way; he's always had a gleam in his eye for the Doctor. 🙂

 

I love Jack so much, and especially that gleam which he has for everyone. Hee. 

He really is a great character.

On 1/27/2020 at 1:11 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

 

Also, I only watched once last night, but didn't Ruth say something when the Doctor mentioned using the weapons? Something along the lines of shhh, don't let them hear that?

I interpreted that to mean she was bluffing and didn't want 13 to give it away.

On 1/27/2020 at 1:26 PM, Eulipian 5k said:

You n me both. The only counter to that is that the "brakes" were wheezing on her TARDIS, lol.

 

Speaking of wheezing, one minor nit. Wouldn't Lee Clayton have recognized the sound of the TARDIS in the coffee shop?

15 hours ago, DanaK said:

Another thing I really loved in this episode was the reactions of the Judoon, especially the Captain. Their little huffs and puffs and shocked and puzzled reactions throughout were an absolute delight. Great animatronic and voice work 

Agreed. I haven't had a chance to post on last weeks, but I felt the queen was particularly week. So, I have to give props for the fantastic work this week. 

1 hour ago, Wulfsige said:

 

One thing that irked me to all hell was that 'Ruth' was resentful that she'd lived in an isolated lighthouse as a child. Are you kidding me!? I'd have loved to have lived in an isolated lighthouse! I still would! Okay, so that was probably all false memories, but still!

Ha! Me too but I am firmly in the introvert category while she was a clear extrovert (plus the well taken point about false memories to keep her from the lighthouse).

 

This episode was fantastic. Start to finish. I loved how it started off like a typical episode and then got all twisty. I am intrigued by the mystery of Doctor Ruth and I could not be happier to see Jack. 

Some interesting canon issues with both the placement of Doctor Ruth in the timeline and the fact that she had a husband.

I felt like last season never quite came together from a storyline perspective. So far this year we have a lot of mystery and I am so hopeful about the payoff.

[gonzosgirrl]

25 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I interpreted that to mean she was bluffing and didn't want 13 to give it away.

Yes, that was my thought also - an answer to the commentary about her being more violent and willing to use weapons than we would expect of the Doctor.

[The Companion]

21 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yes, that was my thought also - an answer to the commentary about her being more violent and willing to use weapons than we would expect of the Doctor.

Got it. Agreed. 

I didn't find her waving the gun any different than, say, threatening Daleks with a jammie dodger. Similarly, the gun set to kill someone pulling the trigger wasn't that far out of the Doctor's playbook. She did offer an out. 

[TwirlyGirly]

 

On 1/26/2020 at 9:35 PM, truther said:

What are the odds that a different Doctor would have a Tardis locked in the same Police Call Box disguise?

I didn't question Ruth's TARDIS appearing as a police call box because in Day of the Doctor, all of the Doctor's TARDISes were police call boxes.

So why wouldn't Ruth's TARDIS be a police box, too?

If there's another explanation for why all the Doctor's TARDISes appeared as police boxes in that episode but Ruth's shouldn't have been one in this episode, please be kind. I don't have all the background knowledge of Doctor Who most of you have! (And I do get confused with the timey-wimey stuff 😉)

Edited January 29, 2020 by TwirlyGirly
Rewording

[libgirl2]

35 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly said:

 

I didn't question Ruth's TARDIS appearing as a police call box because in Day of the Doctor, all of the Doctor's TARDISes were police call boxes.

So why wouldn't Ruth's TARDIS be a police box, too?

If there's another explanation for why all the Doctor's TARDISes appeared as police boxes in that episode but Ruth's shouldn't have been one in this episode, please be kind. I don't have all the background knowledge of Doctor Who most of you have! (And I do get confused with the timey-wimey stuff 😉)

Because the TARDIS wasn't a police box until the first Doctor came to earth. If she came before him.... no police box.

[DanaK]

This seems to be a new promo pic

 

[marina to]

5 hours ago, elle said:

(Hi marina to!  Link please and SPOON!)

Hi Elle! Warning, this is NSFW.

Enraptured

[elle]

2 minutes ago, marina to said:

Hi Elle! Warning, this is NSFW.

Enraptured

Thanks for the warning.  I worried about that being about Captain Jack.  I enjoyed your 'safe' SG1 stories, so I thought I take the chance.

[marina to]

1 hour ago, elle said:

Thanks for the warning.  I worried about that being about Captain Jack.  I enjoyed your 'safe' SG1 stories, so I thought I take the chance.

Yeah, it was a challenge to write but the initial idea demanded it. But true to form, I had to get into the feels, so most of the story is that and you can skim the other stuff.

[Llywela]

On 1/28/2020 at 4:20 PM, elle said:

Where can I read more about the theories referenced (6b, etc)?

Oh heck, all over the place. I hang out among Who fans on Tumblr, occasionally poke my toes into the water at the Gallifrey Base forum (don't go there, it is a jungle).

Try here - TARDIS wiki.

On 1/28/2020 at 4:44 PM, The Companion said:

Speaking of wheezing, one minor nit. Wouldn't Lee Clayton have recognized the sound of the TARDIS in the coffee shop?

He should have, yes, because despite what River may have claimed, the noise the TARDIS makes isn't because the Doctor leaves the parking brake on, it is the sound all TARDIS engines have always made through the entire history of the show!

On 1/28/2020 at 7:53 PM, TwirlyGirly said:

I didn't question Ruth's TARDIS appearing as a police call box because in Day of the Doctor, all of the Doctor's TARDISes were police call boxes.

So why wouldn't Ruth's TARDIS be a police box, too?

Because the Doctor's TARDIS became stuck as a police box when Hartnell's First Doctor took off from London 1963 in the first ever episode of the show. All the other Doctors we saw in Day of the Doctor came after Hartnell, therefore their TARDISes were all police boxes, because it has been stuck in that shape through all their eras (apart from that one time Colin Baker's Doctor fixed the chameleon circuit, didn't like it, and turned it back off). But because Ruth's Doctor seems likely to come before Hartnell's in the Doctor's personal chronology, her TARDIS shouldn't be a police box yet, because it hasn't happened yet - it won't happen until she becomes Hartnell, runs away from Gallifrey with Susan, and fetches up in Foreman's Scrap Yard, London in 1963.

What Ruth has should be a completely different TARDIS altogether, in fact, unless Hartnell's Doctor unknowingly stole the same TARDIS the former self he didn't know he had once tooled about in.

That's if she comes before Hartnell, which seems more and more likely to me the more I think about it, based on available evidence. I'm not sure I'm going to like whatever explanation they come up with to handwave all the anachronisms, but I strongly suspect that's what's going on here.

On 1/28/2020 at 4:20 PM, elle said:

Where can I read more about the theories referenced (6b, etc)?

Here's a Tumblr post going into some detail on how the Ruth!Doctor might slot into the season 6b theory.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Llywela

[DanaK]

I’m confused about something with Gat. If she was a Time Lord (and our Doctor said she was before doing the mind meld), should she have died died when the gun backfired? What happens when a Time Lord is zapped like that? Is there any way to survive it and regenerate or is that one of the ways a Time Lord gets killed forever? Maybe because it was likely a Time Lord weapon? For that matter, was Lee a Time Lord and if so, should he also have died forever after getting zapped and killed by the Judoon?

[Llywela]

18 minutes ago, DanaK said:

I’m confused about something with Gat. If she was a Time Lord (and our Doctor said she was before doing the mind meld), should she have died died when the gun backfired? What happens when a Time Lord is zapped like that? Is there any way to survive it and regenerate or is that one of the ways a Time Lord gets killed forever? Maybe because it was likely a Time Lord weapon? For that matter, was Lee a Time Lord and if so, should he also have died forever after getting zapped and killed by the Judoon?

I think it is likely that both Gat and Lee were regular Gallifreyans rather than Time Lords - there is very much a multi-class system in place on Gallifrey, with Time Lords sitting at the top of the tree lording it over the underclasses beneath. When the Doctor did her telepathic contact with Gat, it was one way only and Gat seemed horrified. So I'm pretty confident that neither Gat nor Lee were Time Lords, but rather were regular Gallifreyans, and therefore would not have regenerative abilities.

(But weapons do exist on Gallifrey that kill a Time Lord dead with one shot and prevent regeneration - just ask the poor Castellan in The Five Doctors!)

Edited January 29, 2020 by Llywela

[The Companion]

2 minutes ago, Llywela said:

I think it is likely that both Gat and Lee were regular Gallifreyans rather than Time Lords - there is very much a multi-class system in place on Gallifrey, with Time Lords sitting at the top of the tree lording it over the underclasses beneath. When the Doctor did her telepathic contact with Gat, it was one way only and Gat seemed horrified. So I'm pretty confident that neither Gat nor Lee were Time Lords, but rather were regular Gallifreyans, and therefore would not have regenerative abilities.

(But weapons do exist on Gallifrey that kill a Time Lord dead with one shot and prevent regeneration - just ask the poor Castellan in The Five Doctors!)

The Doctor did say "Time Lord to Time Lord" before the telepathic contact, FWIW.

[Llywela]

1 minute ago, The Companion said:

The Doctor did say "Time Lord to Time Lord" before the telepathic contact, FWIW.

Did she? I missed that. But she may have been presuming - she was very thrown by the whole situation. If Gat was a Time Lord, then I'm going with 'Gallifreyan weapon that kills a Time Lord dead, no regenerations', which have been known to exist since the 70s.

[TwirlyGirly]

11 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

Because the TARDIS wasn't a police box until the first Doctor came to earth. If she came before him.... no police box.

 

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

<snip>

Because the Doctor's TARDIS became stuck as a police box when Hartnell's First Doctor took off from London 1963 in the first ever episode of the show. All the other Doctors we saw in Day of the Doctor came after Hartnell, therefore their TARDISes were all police boxes, because it has been stuck in that shape through all their eras (apart from that one time Colin Baker's Doctor fixed the chameleon circuit, didn't like it, and turned it back off). But because Ruth's Doctor seems likely to come before Hartnell's in the Doctor's personal chronology, her TARDIS shouldn't be a police box yet, because it hasn't happened yet - it won't happen until she becomes Hartnell, runs away from Gallifrey with Susan, and fetches up in Foreman's Scrap Yard, London in 1963.

What Ruth has should be a completely different TARDIS altogether, in fact, unless Hartnell's Doctor unknowingly stole the same TARDIS the former self he didn't know he had once tooled about in.

That's if she comes before Hartnell, which seems more and more likely to me the more I think about it, based on available evidence. I'm not sure I'm going to like whatever explanation they come up with to handwave all the anachronisms, but I strongly suspect that's what's going on here.

That I know; I think my confusion is in not understanding why so many think Ruth has to have been the Doctor before 1. 

We weren't aware of the existence of the War Doctor, either, before Day of the Doctor - and he wasn't the Doctor before 1, so why would Ruth have to have been?

OTOH, even though I haven't watched Classic Who, I did recognize the similarity of Ruth's TARDIS to 1's (I saw "Adventures in Space and Time") so there's that...

Edited to add:

I use a manual wheelchair for mobility and oh boy! I would love for it to have a chameleon circuit! My life would be so. much. easier..

Edited January 29, 2020 by TwirlyGirly

[libgirl2]

25 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly said:

 

That I know; I think my confusion is in not understanding why so many think Ruth has to have been the Doctor before 1. 

We weren't aware of the existence of the War Doctor, either, before Day of the Doctor - and he wasn't the Doctor before 1, so why would Ruth have to have been?

OTOH, even though I haven't watched Classic Who, I did recognize the similarity of Ruth's TARDIS to 1's (I saw "Adventures in Space and Time") so there's that...

Edited to add:

I use a manual wheelchair for mobility and oh boy! I would love for it to have a chameleon circuit! My life would be so. much. easier..

As I have said, she doesn't need to be pre-One. 

[Llywela]

27 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly said:

That I know; I think my confusion is in not understanding why so many think Ruth has to have been the Doctor before 1. 

We weren't aware of the existence of the War Doctor, either, before Day of the Doctor - and he wasn't the Doctor before 1, so why would Ruth have to have been?

She might not be, it just seems most likely based on available evidence. There's an outside change of season 6b slotting in between Troughton and Pertwee just because we don't actually see Pertwee's face as part of Troughton's regeneration, but other than that...there is literally nowhere else she could fit into the sequence - we've seen every regeneration on-screen, there are no more gaps to wedge her into. 

[DanaK]

I just realized that all this talk of Season 6b in reference to where RuthDoc might fit is referring to the Classic season 6 and not the NewWho Smith/11th Doctor Series 6. D'oh!

[libgirl2]

54 minutes ago, Llywela said:

She might not be, it just seems most likely based on available evidence. There's an outside change of season 6b slotting in between Troughton and Pertwee just because we don't actually see Pertwee's face as part of Troughton's regeneration, but other than that...there is literally nowhere else she could fit into the sequence - we've seen every regeneration on-screen, there are no more gaps to wedge her into. 

As I said, they take away Hartnell being the first, the Doctor who stole that TARDIS with his granddaughter and came to earth.... they lost me as a viewer. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by libgirl2

[darkestboy]

I genuinely loved this episode and I'm glad to say that.

Ruth being a version of the Doctor intrigued me but Chibnall needs to be careful here. Jo Martin played her well and worked well with Jodie Whittaker to boot.

Was Lee a companion along with being another Gallifreyan/protector? Didn't end well for him.

Its great we're getting arc stuff and that the Master hasn't been forgotten either.

Judoon were great. Credit to Chibnall and Vinay Patel getting them spot on.

I genuinely did not expect Jack's return and I loved it. I've forgotten how much I've missed. He worked well with Graham I thought and Ryan and Yasmin, who were better used here.

Looking forward to the Lone Cybermen arc too, 9/10

[Llywela]

21 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

As I said, they take away Hartnell being the first, the Doctor who stole that TARDIS with his granddaughter and came to earth.... they lost me as a viewer. 

I don't think they are going to take any of those things away from Hartnell, not for a moment. It will still be Hartnell's Doctor who did all those things - incontrovertible, the history of the character set in stone, as seen on-screen 1963-66. What I strongly suspect we are going to learn is that the person we know as the Doctor had an existence before they became the man we know as Hartnell's Doctor, who stole a TARDIS and ran away with his granddaughter (and visited a whole bunch of places before they fetched up in London 1963 at the start of the show, judging by little snippets of dialogue peppered through those seasons).

But...there are a LOT of anachronisms that will need to be resolved for the story to be credible.

And like I said, the only other place she could possibly fit in is between Troughton and Pertwee, as season 6b, but there are just as many anachronisms to resolve there as well.

The main reason I lean toward the pre-Hartnell theory is because of everything else that's going on this season - the Timeless Child references and the Master destroying Gallifrey because of something he'd learned about the history of the Time Lords - "I had to make them pay for what I discovered. They lied to us, the founding fathers of Gallifrey. Everything we were told was a lie. We are not who we think, you or I. The whole existence of our species, built on the lie of the timeless child." I think this earlier incarnation of the Doctor is going to be tied in with all that, Chibnall's version of the Cartmel masterplan. Which I'm not thrilled about, because I am not fond of most of what was done with the Doctor's backstory in the EU, but it is where I think this story is going.

I wish I could trust that it is going to be good, because I did like Jo Martin's Doctor. I'm just not convinced all the anachronisms will ever be resolved. So I hope there is another explanation! Season 6b would work better for me, but it doesn't square with the rest of what seems to be going on with the seasonal arc around Gallifrey's history.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Llywela

[Eulipian 5k]

So have Ruth and Lee been on earth all this time? They never intervened when England was attacked before by aliens, Death Stars, arachnids, or the Saxon Master? Or had they just arrived when we meet them? And why hide out on earth? Don't they know the Judoon Platoon would always search near the moon?

[Llywela]

4 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

So have Ruth and Lee been on earth all this time? They never intervened when England was attacked before by aliens, Death Stars, arachnids, or the Saxon Master? Or had they just arrived when we meet them? And why hide out on earth? Don't they know the Judoon Platoon would always search near the moon?

They might have been on Earth for 20 years or more - or maybe only for a few months - but they wouldn't have intervened in any alien invasion because they didn't know who they really were. Or Ruth didn't, at any rate. That's what the chameleon arch does - remember when the Doctor used it and became John Smith? He really, truly became John Smith, with no memory of any life beyond that lived by John Smith. It was just the same for Ruth's Doctor. The chameleon arch made her human, with the memories of an entire life lived on Earth as Ruth, just an ordinary person who grew up in a lighthouse and then went to work as a tour guide in Gloucester. She had no knowledge of any other life beyond that. She'd have reacted to any alien invasion she lived through the same way she reacted when she first saw the Judoon - with fear and trembling. Just as John Smith did when the Family of Blood attacked. Only when the chameleon arch was activated did Ruth remember who she really was.

Lee seemed to know more, he was disguised but seemed to still have his memory. But as a true blue Gallifreyan, he wouldn't have intervened in any alien invasion beyond protecting himself and Ruth - he'd see that as his first duty, and beyond that...Gallifrey has a policy of non-intervention. It's what makes the Doctor stand out from the other Time Lords. (And if Ruth really does slot in before Hartnell, she would go along with the non-intervention policy as well, if not directly threatened herself. It was Hartnell's Doctor who learned how to step up and be a hero, and he learned it from two ordinary London schoolteachers who taught him how to care about beings beyond his own kind).

Why hide out on Earth? They probably saw it as an insignificant little planet at the back of beyond where no one would think to look for them, but where they could live in at least some degree of comfort.

[Eulipian 5k]

What a hilarious and exciting place we're in in the Who-niverse! NO ONE knows where the writers are going! EVERYONE is waiting, some carrying  pitchforks and some carrying Blue Diaries. It's a contest as to who reveres Who-lore more, WWWhovians or the Chibbers.

12 hours ago, Llywela said:

Lee seemed to know more, he was disguised but seemed to still have his memory. But as a true blue Gallifreyan, he wouldn't have intervened in any alien invasion beyond protecting himself and Ruth - he'd see that as his first duty, and beyond that...Gallifrey has a policy of non-intervention

Martha would have awakened John Smith if someone else attacked Earth, but she's not  Gallifreyan. Re non interference, this is our Doctor, so Ruth claims, and he/she certainly has no non-intervention policy for earth and earthlings, "you look like giants". When had our Doctor "adopted" earth as a place to live and protect? After #1, #2 or #3? (I don't know Classic Who).

[kris4n6]

We also never saw 8 transform into the War Doctor as far I know, so she could be slotted in there somewhere. 

As for how long Lee and Ruth had been on Earth, All Ears Allen said his dossier on Lee only went back 15 years and nothing before that, so I'd think that was when they came to Earth.

Of course, the simplest question for either Doctor to ask would have been "How old are you?" 

[DanaK]

34 minutes ago, kris4n6 said:

Of course, the simplest question for either Doctor to ask would have been "How old are you?"

But what would that have proven or shown? More important would have been how many regenerations RuthDoc has had

This season and its twists and surprises is going to be the death of me, especially if I end up staying offline for most of Sundays to avoid spoilers. It's a good thing I'm retired

[libgirl2]

11 hours ago, kris4n6 said:

We also never saw 8 transform into the War Doctor as far I know, so she could be slotted in there somewhere. 

As for how long Lee and Ruth had been on Earth, All Ears Allen said his dossier on Lee only went back 15 years and nothing before that, so I'd think that was when they came to Earth.

Of course, the simplest question for either Doctor to ask would have been "How old are you?" 

Actually we did in the short film "Night of the Doctor" 

 

 

[kris4n6]

18 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

 

Thanks! I obviously hadn't seen this, so nix that theory!

[libgirl2]

25 minutes ago, kris4n6 said:

Thanks! I obviously hadn't seen this, so nix that theory!

You're welcome. It came out during the 50th but wasn't on TV. 

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Martha would have awakened John Smith if someone else attacked Earth, but she's not  Gallifreyan. Re non interference, this is our Doctor, so Ruth claims, and he/she certainly has no non-intervention policy for earth and earthlings, "you look like giants". When had our Doctor "adopted" earth as a place to live and protect? After #1, #2 or #3? (I don't know Classic Who).

When we first meet the First Doctor in 1963, he is living in London, and has been settled there for a few months mainly because his granddaughter Susan craves companionship and has enrolled herself in school, but he holds himself completely aloof from the world around him. He is all Gallifreyan (although his homeworld won't be given a name for years yet) - very proud, knows himself to be superior to humans and thinks very little of them; he is a scientist and explorer, he likes to visit new places, he likes to study and learn, but he has no interest in getting involved, considers it beneath him. It is only after he abducts Ian and Barbara from 1963 (in a moment of panic and pique after they blunder into the TARDIS) that he starts to learn to care about people beyond his own kind. It is a slow process. At first, he has a strict them and us policy - he and Susan are 'us' and everyone else is 'them'. After a couple of adventures together, Ian and Barbara become part of 'us' - and since they are lowly humans, accepting them as friends and equals and family is a massive step forward for him. And because Ian and Barbara are both wonderful people, full of passion and compassion, through their influence the Doctor slowly changes, begins to involve himself more and more, learns to care more and more - starts to become the heroic Doctor that we know today.

By the time the First Doctor regenerates into the Second, he is actively choosing to get involved whenever he sees a problem anywhere, and by the time the Second Doctor is forced to regenerate by the Time Lords in 1969, he freely admits having a special interest in Earth. Then the Third Doctor lived in exile on Earth for years, working for UNIT, which pretty much cemented the special relationship.

Honestly , the 1960s were an amazing era for Doctor Who. Television was primitive in almost every way back then, compared with what we are used to now - the cinematography, production values, acting styles, all of it. But the Doctor goes through such amazing development through those years - that is his origin story, and it happened right there on screen, available on DVD for anyone to watch (most of it, anyway - a pox on the BBC's burnination policy!)

I don't want any of that development and history to be taken away from him, or undermined by a 'new' history that precedes it, as if all that never happened or wasn't important. It was horrible enough when Moffat kept messing about with the Doctor's backstory, attempting to re-create it in his own image - even placing an important First Doctor speech in Clara's mouth, spoken to the child Doctor, as if she was the one who really planted the seeds of who he would become, rather than it coming from himself, under Ian and Barbara's influence.

If the Ruth!Doctor comes before Hartnell's, she really, really should not and must not act like a modern Doctor, valiant hero and defender of the downtrodden, and all the rest of it. Because if she comes before Hartnell, she shouldn't be that Doctor yet. Heck, through that first season, Hartnell never even called himself the Doctor - it was what Ian and Barbara called him, because he'd used the name Dr. Foreman as his pseudonym on Earth and they didn't know his real name (we still don't). When they first addressed him as Doctor, he was confused and took a moment to realise they were talking to him. Whenever he was asked his name, he said things like, "They call me the Doctor," rather than, "I am the Doctor." It took time to fully adopt that as his identity. So if Ruth comes before him and is already proudly proclaiming, "I am the Doctor"...well, that's another anachronism that'll need to be resolved, and I desperately hope that it is resolved, and in a way that doesn't undermine the beautiful development of Hartnell's Doctor, which took place right there on-screen in what is probably my all-time favourite season of the show (I really love Hartnell's era, does it show?).

Actually, what I really hope is that Ruth doesn't come before Hartnell, that there's another explanation entirely...but the odds don't look great.

I guess we'll all find out eventually!

I love, though, that this storyline has got us all buzzing and guessing and talking about this stuff! I think I am more confident of a strong resolution to this story than I would have been under Moffat - Chibnall's vision of the show seems more closely aligned with mine than Moffat's was, and that gives me hope.

2 hours ago, kris4n6 said:

We also never saw 8 transform into the War Doctor as far I know, so she could be slotted in there somewhere. 

Of course, the simplest question for either Doctor to ask would have been "How old are you?" 

😄 Of course that would have been the simplest question, therefore obviously neither of them thought to ask it! The Doctor never does anything the easy way.

And yeah, as others have said, we have seen Eight's regeneration into the War Doctor, but it was filmed and aired as an extra for the 50th anniversary, a kind of webisode, rather than forming part of a proper episode of the show. It stands as part of the show's canon, though.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Llywela

[The Companion]

8 hours ago, Llywela said:

Did she? I missed that. But she may have been presuming - she was very thrown by the whole situation. If Gat was a Time Lord, then I'm going with 'Gallifreyan weapon that kills a Time Lord dead, no regenerations', which have been known to exist since the 70s.

I noticed on rewatch with my son. The transcript online actually says: "Check my mind, one Time Lord to another."

https://tvshowtranscripts.ourboard.org/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=36830

Doesn't mean she is right, but she also wasn't surprised by the failure to regenerate so I would guess weapon that kills Time Lords. That would also explain why Doctor Ruth stole it.

[libgirl2]

22 minutes ago, Llywela said:

When we first meet the First Doctor in 1963, he is living in London, and has been settled there for a few months mainly because his granddaughter Susan craves companionship and has enrolled herself in school, but he holds himself completely aloof from the world around him. He is all Gallifreyan (although his homeworld won't be given a name for years yet) - very proud, knows himself to be superior to humans and thinks very little of them; he is a scientist and explorer, he likes to visit new places, he likes to study and learn, but he has no interest in getting involved, considers it beneath him. It is only after he abducts Ian and Barbara from 1963 (in a moment of panic and pique after they blunder into the TARDIS) that he starts to learn to care about people beyond his own kind. It is a slow process. At first, he has a strict them and us policy - he and Susan are 'us' and everyone else is 'them'. After a couple of adventures together, Ian and Barbara become part of 'us' - and since they are lowly humans, accepting them as friends and equals and family is a massive step forward for him. And because Ian and Barbara are both wonderful people, full of passion and compassion, through their influence the Doctor slowly changes, begins to involve himself more and more, learns to care more and more - starts to become the heroic Doctor that we know today.

By the time the First Doctor regenerates into the Second, he is actively choosing to get involved whenever he sees a problem anywhere, and by the time the Second Doctor is forced to regenerate by the Time Lords in 1969, he freely admits having a special interest in Earth. Then the Third Doctor lived in exile on Earth for years, working for UNIT, which pretty much cemented the special relationship.

Honestly , the 1960s were an amazing era for Doctor Who. Television was primitive in almost every way back then, compared with what we are used to now - the cinematography, production values, acting styles, all of it. But the Doctor goes through such amazing development through those years - that is his origin story, and it happened right there on screen, available on DVD for anyone to watch (most of it, anyway - a pox on the BBC's burnination policy!)

I don't want any of that development and history to be taken away from him, or undermined by a 'new' history that precedes it, as if all that never happened or wasn't important. It was horrible enough when Moffat kept messing about with the Doctor's backstory, attempting to re-create it in his own image - even placing an important First Doctor speech in Clara's mouth, spoken to the child Doctor, as if she was the one who really planted the seeds of who he would become, rather than it coming from himself, under Ian and Barbara's influence.

If the Ruth!Doctor comes before Hartnell's, she really, really should not and must not act like a modern Doctor, valiant hero and defender of the downtrodden, and all the rest of it. Because if she comes before Hartnell, she shouldn't be that Doctor yet. Heck, through that first season, Hartnell never even called himself the Doctor - it was what Ian and Barbara called him, because he'd used the name Dr. Foreman as his pseudonym on Earth and they didn't know his real name (we still don't). When they first addressed him as Doctor, he was confused and took a moment to realise they were talking to him. Whenever he was asked his name, he said things like, "They call me the Doctor," rather than, "I am the Doctor." It took time to fully adopt that as his identity. So if Ruth comes before him and is already proudly proclaiming, "I am the Doctor"...well, that's another anachronism that'll need to be resolved, and I desperately hope that it is resolved, and in a way that doesn't undermine the beautiful development of Hartnell's Doctor, which took place right there on-screen in what is probably my all-time favourite season of the show (I really love Hartnell's era, does it show?).

Actually, what I really hope is that Ruth doesn't come before Hartnell, that there's another explanation entirely...but the odds don't look great.

I guess we'll all find out eventually!

I love, though, that this storyline has got us all buzzing and guessing and talking about this stuff! I think I am more confident of a strong resolution to this story than I would have been under Moffat - Chibnall's vision of the show seems more closely aligned with mine than Moffat's was, and that gives me hope.

😄 Of course that would have been the simplest question, therefore obviously neither of them thought to ask it! The Doctor never does anything the easy way.

And yeah, as others have said, we have seen Eight's regeneration into the War Doctor, but it was filmed and aired as an extra for the 50th anniversary, a kind of webisode, rather than forming part of a proper episode of the show. It stands as part of the show's canon, though.

Wonderfully explained to those who don't know the whole Who backstory and are new(er) to this world. And why, while its okay to change some things, its not okay to change others. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by libgirl2

[Eulipian 5k]

32 minutes ago, Llywela said:

I love, though, that this storyline has got us all buzzing and guessing and talking about this stuff! I think I am more confident of a strong resolution to this story than I would have been under Moffat - Chibnall's vision of the show seems more closely aligned with mine than Moffat's was, and that gives me hope.

Thx biggly @ LLwela. You can be the script(Chibnall)wrangler! I think any creative person loves controversy about their work. but if you don't like "A Starry Night" the way Vincent painted it, you can't repaint it or stand there berating the work, just move on to the next gallery. The Curator will show you out.

[Prower]

A good episode of Doctor Who under Chibnall? I never thought I'd see the day!

Chibnall has to be pretty desperate though, hasn't he? Since the previous new years special he brought out the Daleks, the Master, the Jadoon, Captain Jack Harkness, the chamelion arch, a previous Doctor, and a namedrop of the Cybermen. Seems like he is throwing anyting remotely classic against the wall in a desperate attempt to not get cancelled.

Jo Martin was a better Doctor in the 1,5 minutes she had her memories back than Jodie Whittaker has been in 1,5 seasons, which is... just sad, really.

Loved seeing Captain Jack back. I was totally unspoiled and it was a big squee-moment for me, not going to lie. He also got the "fam" out of the way and without them the episode was so much better.

What really annoyed me at the end is that both doctors didn't even try to figure out where the Ruth-doctor might fit into the doctors timeline. The doctor is supposed to be an insannely smart scientist with a curious mind and she couldn't even ask basic questions like "Have you ever been a weird dude with a brown Fro and a super long scarf who constantly offered people jelly babies?". Instead she decides to mope around in her Tardis "She is from my past, but I know my past and I don't remember her." Well maybe if you had done the most basic investigation, you could have figured out where she fits in, Doctor.

[libgirl2]

9 minutes ago, Prower said:

A good episode of Doctor Who under Chibnall? I never thought I'd see the day!

Chibnall has to be pretty desperate though, hasn't he? Since the previous new years special he brought out the Daleks, the Master, the Jadoon, Captain Jack Harkness, the chamelion arch, a previous Doctor, and a namedrop of the Cybermen. Seems like he is throwing anyting remotely classic against the wall in a desperate attempt to not get cancelled.

 

Well the ratings have been not so good, so yes, lets throw everything we can and hope it sticks. 

[Prower]

7 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Well the ratings have been not so good, so yes, lets throw everything we can and hope it sticks. 

Maybe he should try throwing some good writing at the wall instead of a bunch of nostalgia bait? Don't get me wrong, loved seeing Captain Jack, but only because this was finally a good episode (I really think it was the only good one in the Chibnall era so far). In a bad one, I probably would have been annoyed for them misusing the character.

[Eulipian 5k]

22 minutes ago, Prower said:

Since the previous new years special he brought out the Daleks, the Master, the Jadoon, Captain Jack Harkness, the chamelion arch, a previous Doctor, and a namedrop of the Cybermen. Seems like he is throwing anyting remotely classic against the wall in a desperate attempt to not get cancelled.

Sheesh, you could say that about every single series of Doctor Who; sounds like Ten's seasons. I saw someone criticized the opening of the episode because Ruth was timing the toaster, not making a souffle; (taking no notice that a show about the Chameleon Arch began with a close-up of a watch!).

[Prower]

On 1/27/2020 at 8:16 PM, Keely said:

From the time Ruth broke the glass onward, the actress might as well have been channeling Alex as River. If she doesn't turn out to be River, I will be very surprised. The argument between them at the end, when Ruth kept telling the Doc to be quiet, was eerily similar to the Husbands of River Song when Ruth kept shushing and telling her to be quiet. The facial expressions and tone were on seriously on point. 

I don't see it. She seems to be a lot more in line with previous doctors than with River.

On 1/28/2020 at 1:21 AM, Affogato said:

If Ruth escapes from Gallifrey prison by stealing the tardis and runs to earth perhaps she (Tardis) cloaks herself as a police box and then the device is broken. So before One? I haven’t seen all the available first season but it is a police box at the beginning, right? 

Yes, but Susan remarks, when they get to the stone age, that it sould have changed when they got there. Meaning the cameleon circut was working before.

Also we saw the Tardis as a grey metal cylinder, when Hartnell stole it, in the Clara-retcon.

On 1/28/2020 at 2:34 AM, Rhetorica said:

The article also says, ”Jo Martin will take over the role from Jodie Whittaker.” under a picture if her...

If only.

On 1/27/2020 at 6:14 AM, DavidJSnyder said:

(And you ignore Clara traveling through his history.)

I would very much like to ignore that bullshit regardless.

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Sheesh, you could say that about every single series of Doctor Who; sounds like Ten's seasons.

I'm sure you have a good example for another half season with this much nostalgia bait...

Edited January 29, 2020 by Prower

[DanaK]

One thing I didn’t like about the episode was the frequent lens flare. At the very least, we got it in the Jack scenes and RuthDoc’s Tardis scenes. I don’t really remember noticing it in previous episodes

[Eulipian 5k]

Many of this season’s stories are reworks of Tennant’s Martha Jones series, the Judoon, the Chameleon Arch, the Master, Captain Jack. Many whined about Jody’s first no nostalgia season. Now the critique is Chibs is stealing from Dr Who, must be desperate. Sometimes you can never please an in-law who’ll sit in the back seat and mitch-n-boan about every decision you make, praying for a divorce.

[Prower]

4 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Many of this season’s stories are reworks of Tennant’s Martha Jones series, the Judoon, the Chameleon Arch, the Master, Captain Jack. Many whined about Jody’s first no nostalgia season. Now the critique is Chibs is stealing from Dr Who, must be desperate. Sometimes you can never please an in-law who’ll sit in the back seat and mitch-n-boan about every decision you make, praying for a divorce.

First of all, different people. I absolutely did not mind not getting recurring villians. I just minded that the writing was complete shit.

Second, there is a balance. You bring some old stuff back, but ~70-80% of your season should be new stuff. That's off this season. Even the Queen of the Skithra from last episode was weirdly reminiscent of the Empress of the Racnoss. Of course it's not stealing to bring old monsters/antagonists/protagonists back, but if it's the only thing you can thin of to save your thinking ship, it seems very desperate.

[AudienceofOne]

On ‎1‎/‎29‎/‎2020 at 9:44 AM, The Companion said:

Danny Pink fan club, party of one.

Who?

7 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Many whined about Jody’s first no nostalgia season. Now the critique is Chibs is stealing from Dr Who, must be desperate. Sometimes you can never please an in-law who’ll sit in the back seat and mitch-n-boan about every decision you make, praying for a divorce.

They should do what we did and come back when there's a new showrunner because, fracking hell, Moffatt was a dumpster fire. Whether you love or hate his decisions, Chib is not a dumpster fire. I may have some issues with his steady middle-of-the-road storytelling but at least the show isn't spraying burning trash down upon me.

I do hope he brings this storyline home though. He has the potential to piss off almost everyone so I hope he doesn't. Someone above mentioned the Cartmel Masterplan though, and those are words I hoped to never hear again -ever.

[libgirl2]

12 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Many of this season’s stories are reworks of Tennant’s Martha Jones series, the Judoon, the Chameleon Arch, the Master, Captain Jack. Many whined about Jody’s first no nostalgia season. Now the critique is Chibs is stealing from Dr Who, must be desperate. Sometimes you can never please an in-law who’ll sit in the back seat and mitch-n-boan about every decision you make, praying for a divorce.

No he is trying to rewrite canon from 50 years ago. Mainly knocking Hartnell out of place. If that is his plan.

 I hope not. 

[Bruinsfan]

3 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

Well the ratings have been not so good, so yes, lets throw everything we can and hope it sticks. 

I'm certainly not going to complain, I've seriously enjoyed four out of five episodes so far. It's got to be hard to try and come up with a story that doesn't echo something in this show's 57 year history—my concern is if the cast and crew can make it good, and so far this season has been quite an improvement over last imho.