S39: Ponderosa (Possible Spoilers)

[ProfCrash]

Except that Kellee has said in her interviews that she was worried about a backlash in the game. I don't rewatch episodes so my recollection might be wrong but she told Dan she was a germaphobe and didn't like being touched because she was worried about what the tribe would say if she said the way he was touching her was inappropriate.

Jamal said in an interview that he was careful about hugging Kellee because she had publicly said she didn't like being touched and she told Jamal that she said that because Dan's touching was uncomfortable.

Kellee also told Missy that she only said the germaphobe thing because she was worried what would happen if she had told Dan his touches were inappropriate.

Kellee changed her vote to Dan when it was clear to her that five women were uncomfortable with Dan, based on her conversations with Missy and Elisabeth. She realized it wasn't just her and that the problem was larger then her. In many ways, that conversation validated that she was not crazy and Dan was inappropriate in how he was touching some of the women.

So it is clear, even from show confessionals and conversations, that Kellee said nothing because she feared the backlash. She changed her vote once she believe it was more then her and she realized she wasn't over reacting.

Production should have intervened when one person was uncomfortable. That intervention should have been a clear warning "Dan, there have been complaints about how you are touching people. Keep your hands to yourself. It is ok to return a hug or a massage or a high five. It is not alright to initiate contact with someone because you are not touching people in an appropriate fashion." Action did not have to equal kicking him out of the game immediately.

[Hanahope]

I don't think anyone makes a decision on the island without some consideration as to whether there will be some backlash against them, whether it helps them, whether it hurts them. Its totally clear that Kelley was thinking that, during her conversation with the producer, as stated by @ProfCrash.

I have no doubt Kelley thought Missy was the bigger threat gamewise.  but she was happy enough to vote Dan out, even though he was her ally, when she learned that others wanted to vote him out too because he was making others uncomfortable with his touching as well. 

She didn't want to be the only one making that decision, because she didn't want her other allies to blame her for taking away their ally.  but sure, when her allies are interested in voting him out, she was totally on board. 

She didn't think she needed to use her idol because she thought everyone was voting Dan out.  should she have played it to 'be safe' and because she had a spare?  Of course.  But again, if that  had happened, she would have been the deciding factor, as opposed to 'one of the group' and that was what she wanted, thought was best for her game at the time.

[Bryce Lynch]

15 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

I don't think anyone makes a decision on the island without some consideration as to whether there will be some backlash against them, whether it helps them, whether it hurts them. Its totally clear that Kelley was thinking that, during her conversation with the producer, as stated by @ProfCrash.

I have no doubt Kelley thought Missy was the bigger threat gamewise.  but she was happy enough to vote Dan out, even though he was her ally, when she learned that others wanted to vote him out too because he was making others uncomfortable with his touching as well. 

She didn't want to be the only one making that decision, because she didn't want her other allies to blame her for taking away their ally.  but sure, when her allies are interested in voting him out, she was totally on board. 

She didn't think she needed to use her idol because she thought everyone was voting Dan out.  should she have played it to 'be safe' and because she had a spare?  Of course.  But again, if that  had happened, she would have been the deciding factor, as opposed to 'one of the group' and that was what she wanted, thought was best for her game at the time.

Does anyone have any links to interviews where Kellee said she feared backlash.  In EW she said:

"However, Dan was part of our core alliance and to risk alienating him was to risk my allies and my game. I tried to address the issue and move forward with the game. I can leave this show feeling proud of that."

If an alliance is more important to you than stopping inappropriate touching, why should the TPTB see the touching as more important?   Kellee individually, and the women in the tribe collectively, had the tools to kick Feely Dan to the curb.  Instead, they chose to put strategy first.   

[Hanahope]

14 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Does anyone have any links to interviews where Kellee said she feared backlash.  In EW she said:

"However, Dan was part of our core alliance and to risk alienating him was to risk my allies and my game. I tried to address the issue and move forward with the game. I can leave this show feeling proud of that."

If an alliance is more important to you than stopping inappropriate touching, why should the TPTB see the touching as more important?   Kellee individually, and the women in the tribe collectively, had the tools to kick Feely Dan to the curb.  Instead, they chose to put strategy first.   

She said it in her interview on the show with the producer, her "talking head," during the "Dan" episode where yes, Missy and Elizabeth decided to put game strategy ahead of truthfulness about harassment because it suited their game.  And yes, Kelley, fearing the backlash, was willing to use Dan as an ally because her other allies wanted to use him.  but she jumped on board the 'vote dan out' boat when Missy and Elizabeth lied to Janet and got Janet to want to vote Dan out because Janet was fine with putting harassment before game strategy.

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

She said it in her interview on the show with the producer, her "talking head," during the "Dan" episode where yes, Missy and Elizabeth decided to put game strategy ahead of truthfulness about harassment because it suited their game.  And yes, Kelley, fearing the backlash, was willing to use Dan as an ally because her other allies wanted to use him.  but she jumped on board the 'vote dan out' boat when Missy and Elizabeth lied to Janet and got Janet to want to vote Dan out because Janet was fine with putting harassment before game strategy.

I'm not so sure it was "backlash" as in the tribe turning on her than Kellee feared.  It seemed more like she didn't want to lose Dan as a number and weaken her alliance.  

I have far more sympathy for Kellee than Missy and Elizabeth.  Missy and Elizabeth behaved despicably.   I think Kellee put pragmatism over doing what what right (at least initially).  

I am not so much knocking Kellee as defending TPTB.  My view is that if the victims won't make make stopping the touching a high priority, why should production step in and make decisions that are against the expressed interests of the victims?  These are grown women, not helpless children.   

[ProfCrash]

19 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not so sure it was "backlash" as in the tribe turning on her than Kellee feared.  It seemed more like she didn't want to lose Dan as a number and weaken her alliance.  

I have far more sympathy for Kellee than Missy and Elizabeth.  Missy and Elizabeth behaved despicably.   I think Kellee put pragmatism over doing what what right (at least initially).  

I am not so much knocking Kellee as defending TPTB.  My view is that if the victims won't make make stopping the touching a high priority, why should production step in and make decisions that are against the expressed interests of the victims?  These are grown women, not helpless children.   

No, she feared that her tribe would be upset with her for removing him from the game. Especially her alliance mates. She was willing to move forward with voting Dan out when she felt like other people shared her concerns and would vote with her. As soon as Janet, Missy, and Elisabeth were with her, Kellee changed her vote to Dan. Jamal voted with that group. I believe Noura voted for Dan as well. Essentially, once Kellee knew she wasn't alone, she moved to vote Dan.

Kelle had no clue that Missy and Elisabeth, and I think Lauren to a lesser extent, were using the harassment as a strategy to vote out Kellee.

In the end, Kellee was burnt by the backlash that she was worried about. She confided in Missy, Missy agreed with Kellee, Missy said Dan had made her uncomfortable. Elisabeth said Dan made her uncomfortable. Kellee changed her vote to remove Dan, using a game mechanism instead of asking Production to remove him. Instead, Missy and Elisabeth used the situation to their advantage.

Dan should have been issued a very specific warning early in the game. He was not. By the time any warning was given, it was done in such a vague way that Dan was clueless, as was the rest of the Tribe. The hope would be that the specific early warning would have ended the problem but we can't know because Production did not do that.

[Rachel RSL]

29 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

My view is that if the victims won't make make stopping the touching a high priority, why should production step in and make decisions that are against the expressed interests of the victims?  These are grown women, not helpless children.   

"The victims won't make stopping touching a priority..."

"If an alliance is more important to you than stopping inappropriate touching, why should the TPTB see the touching as more important..."

"Kellee also could have idol'ed him out....."

The victim blaming is beyond frustrating.  It is not up to Kellee or any other victim of harassment to take any disciplinary action against the person who is harassing them.  All the victim has to do is report it, which Kellee did.  It's the responsibility of the people in charge to take further action.  And leaving it up to Kellee to decide (or any victim) is unacceptable for the vast array of reasons already mentioned.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Rachel RSL

[Bryce Lynch]

15 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

No, she feared that her tribe would be upset with her for removing him from the game. Especially her alliance mates. She was willing to move forward with voting Dan out when she felt like other people shared her concerns and would vote with her. As soon as Janet, Missy, and Elisabeth were with her, Kellee changed her vote to Dan. Jamal voted with that group. I believe Noura voted for Dan as well. Essentially, once Kellee knew she wasn't alone, she moved to vote Dan.

Kelle had no clue that Missy and Elisabeth, and I think Lauren to a lesser extent, were using the harassment as a strategy to vote out Kellee.

In the end, Kellee was burnt by the backlash that she was worried about. She confided in Missy, Missy agreed with Kellee, Missy said Dan had made her uncomfortable. Elisabeth said Dan made her uncomfortable. Kellee changed her vote to remove Dan, using a game mechanism instead of asking Production to remove him. Instead, Missy and Elisabeth used the situation to their advantage.

Dan should have been issued a very specific warning early in the game. He was not. By the time any warning was given, it was done in such a vague way that Dan was clueless, as was the rest of the Tribe. The hope would be that the specific early warning would have ended the problem but we can't know because Production did not do that.

I haven't seen where Kellee said she was afraid of the backlash.  

The backlash that Kellee faced was the result of her targeting Missy, not targeting Dan.   If Missy hadn't found out from Lauren that Kellee had put her name out, it probably would have been an easy Dan vote.

Missy and Elizabeth behaved despicably, but that was on them, not on production.

Besides that, if production HAD stepped in and eliminated Dan, without Kellee requesting it, she probably would have faced the same exact backlash (if any) that she would have faced if he was removed on her request.   If removing Feely Dan really pissed off enough tribe members to hurt Kellee, she probably would have been blamed for his ejection, even if she didn't request it.  

There was really no way TPTB could shield Kellee from any possible backlash from ejecting Dan.  

That said, I don't think there would have been a backlash.  Pretty much everyone was ready to vote out Dan, until Missy got it into her head that Kellee was double crossing her and she and Elizabeth executed their diabolical plot to gaslight Janet.  

Edited December 3, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Special K]

32 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I haven't seen where Kellee said she was afraid of the backlash.  

In the very first episode, she talked about how addressing Dan's touching, speaking up about it, could lead to consequences for her game.  That's why she chose to blame herself ("I don't like being touched, it's my problem") as a way to both stop his touching (which it did not), and not blow up her game as a troublemaker on the first day.

[LanceM]

8 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Except that Kellee has said in her interviews that she was worried about a backlash in the game. I don't rewatch episodes so my recollection might be wrong but she told Dan she was a germaphobe and didn't like being touched because she was worried about what the tribe would say if she said the way he was touching her was inappropriate.

Jamal said in an interview that he was careful about hugging Kellee because she had publicly said she didn't like being touched and she told Jamal that she said that because Dan's touching was uncomfortable.

Kellee also told Missy that she only said the germaphobe thing because she was worried what would happen if she had told Dan his touches were inappropriate.

Kellee changed her vote to Dan when it was clear to her that five women were uncomfortable with Dan, based on her conversations with Missy and Elisabeth. She realized it wasn't just her and that the problem was larger then her. In many ways, that conversation validated that she was not crazy and Dan was inappropriate in how he was touching some of the women.

So it is clear, even from show confessionals and conversations, that Kellee said nothing because she feared the backlash. She changed her vote once she believe it was more then her and she realized she wasn't over reacting.

Production should have intervened when one person was uncomfortable. That intervention should have been a clear warning "Dan, there have been complaints about how you are touching people. Keep your hands to yourself. It is ok to return a hug or a massage or a high five. It is not alright to initiate contact with someone because you are not touching people in an appropriate fashion." Action did not have to equal kicking him out of the game immediately.

That's not true. She changed her vote because Jamal told her they were voting out Dan and that he had the numbers to do it. And Jamal said his reasons for voting Dan was because Dan had previously targeting him and therefore was a threat to him. 

"Kellee: "I thought we had the vote locked but now Jamal wants to vote out Dan, and I'm worried. I was just sitting there, everyone's in like a group laughing and I'm like... something is off.""

So yeah she was fully on board for voting off Missy over Dan and it sounds like this confessional was very close to tribal given that she felt the votes were locked (for Missy)

Edited December 4, 2019 by LanceM

[watchingtvaddict]

20 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Besides that, if production HAD stepped in and eliminated Dan, without Kellee requesting it, she probably would have faced the same exact backlash (if any) that she would have faced if he was removed on her request.   If removing Feely Dan really pissed off enough tribe members to hurt Kellee, she probably would have been blamed for his ejection, even if she didn't request it.  

This is a big fat fail from production. Production should have stepped in once they realised Missy and Elizabeth were using sexual harassment as a strategy. It muddied the waters. Women who said they were uncomfortable are now maybe exaggerating their discomfort, fabricating their discomfort and then lying and saying they didn't feel any discomfort. They should have had a REAL talk with the cast, not some vague "if you feel bad tell us" talk.

They should have clarified the rules and warned about false statements and defamation that might have real life consequences. Clarified the rules on unwanted touching when the issue first arose. 

Multiple warnings should have been addressed in this situation. 

I'm really annoyed that Kellee is being framed as the sole victim/instigator who is suddenly responsible for what went down. Dan was touchy-feely with all the women. He was even inappropriate with Noura at Tribal. His "display of accidental touching" should have gotten him booted. 

I'm sure they've cut all the scenes where he continues to be inappropriate so as to not taint the show in later episodes. 

14 hours ago, LanceM said:

"Kellee: "I thought we had the vote locked but now Jamal wants to vote out Dan, and I'm worried. I was just sitting there, everyone's in like a group laughing and I'm like... something is off.""

So yeah she was fully on board for voting off Missy over Dan and it sounds like this confessional was very close to tribal given that she felt the votes were locked (for Missy)

 Kellee was uneasy because she though there was a chance she was being voted out. She looks for an idol as soon as Jamal tells her about the switch. I don't think it was that close to the tribal council. 

[LanceM]

Karishma's Ponderosa

Well for those expecting some drama with Karishma's arrival, sorry to disappoint. Despite herself wondering if anyone would greet her she was welcomed with open arms. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by LanceM

[LadyChatts]

I'm glad Karishma got such a warm welcome.  I like it when Ponderosa is upbeat, and everyone can just leave their grievances and drama in the game.

[Straycat80]

So far everyone has been welcomed with open arms which is nice to see. Karishma seemed so miserable playing the game, it’s nice to see her relaxed and happy at Ponderosa. 

[ProfCrash]

The Ponderosa videos are nice to see. All these folks are so good to each other and they seem to be genuinely kind. It makes me think that the Dan crap was a really bad hiccup for folks.

Seriously, they are all so nice to each other and genuinely positive.

I wonder what some of their private conversations have been like.

Karishma is a totally different person at Ponderosa. She dropped what ever shield she was wearing that seemed to hide the best of her. Her physical discomfort really got in the way of her play in the worst way. She went from Eeyore to Tigger.

[watchingtvaddict]

Watching the Ponderosa videos makes me happy. The cast really seems like they’re leaving game play in the game and willing to interact with the voted off players on another level. Very bygones be bygones. But, I suppose they probably don’t feel as positive to the players still in the game. 

[ByaNose]

Karishma looks like a model in the final shot with her hair up and Missy & Elizabeth dancing around her. It's like she had a makeup and hair team at Ponderosa waiting for her. Very glam.

[Special K]

5 minutes ago, ByaNose said:

Karishma looks like a model in the final shot with her hair up and Missy & Elizabeth dancing around her. It's like she had a makeup and hair team at Ponderosa waiting for her. Very glam.

She is very beautiful and has amazing hair.

[tvgoddess]

10 hours ago, LanceM said:

Karishma's Ponderosa

Well for those expecting some drama with Karishma's arrival, sorry to disappoint. Despite herself wondering if anyone would greet her she was welcomed with open arms. 

I think a lot of the drama involving Karishma is made up in her head. I could maybe see her being nervous about Missy, but the rest? Not so much.

[watchingtvaddict]

36 minutes ago, Special K said:

She is very beautiful and has amazing hair.

Her hair is so amazing. It was amazing during the game and amazing at Ponderosa. I have serious hair envy. 

[ProfCrash]

33 minutes ago, tvgoddess said:

I think a lot of the drama involving Karishma is made up in her head. I could maybe see her being nervous about Missy, but the rest? Not so much.

She felt totally out of her comfort zone and it caused her to shut down. This made her mopey and unhappy playing the game. She was clearly on the bottom of the alliances and people were openly awful to her face. I can see why she would be worried.

Missy's comment that she had just met Karishma was very real and I think very true.

[tvgoddess]

I was going to respond, but I don't care enough about Karishma to bother. She isn't worth the effort.

[Melina22]

6 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Karishma is a totally different person at Ponderosa. She dropped what ever shield she was wearing that seemed to hide the best of her. Her physical discomfort really got in the way of her play in the worst way. She went from Eeyore to Tigger.

Good comparison! 

This is my all time favourite Ponderosa season. This one made me tear up and gave me goosebumps, seeing how even someone as apparently prickly as Karishma just melted when finding herself welcomed with open arms instead of rejected. It's really powerful. 

I loved Missy's comment that Karishma on Ponderosa was an entirely new person, the "real" Karishma. Is this the "real" her? Hard to know. 

I've also enjoyed watching Karishma's journey, from someone who looked down on her semi-arranged marriage, to someone who truly appreciated the blessing of having a mate who loved her as she was. Of course, it might just be a bit of a honeymoon effect that will wear off, but I hope not. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Melina22

[LanceM]

Elaine is welcomed at Ponderosa.

[ProfCrash]

In case anyone cares, there is no mention of Dan in the Ponderosa video.

LOL "I am too great and it's a curse."

Elaine lost 24.4 pounds. She said she lost 20 pounds before she came. So hopefully this will be a health changer for her. And then she talks about chocolate overload.

She had a nice reception from folks. She was wearing Aaron's jeans. LOL

"I just got everything." No one seemed to be surprised at how much she ordered

I could have down without the leg hair discussion

The food conversation was great. The "Who puts a cucumber on a burger?" was funny but the conversation with Kellee about biscuits and gravy for breakfast had me laughing. Kellee was baffled at the idea of gravy at anything other then Thanksgiving and Christmas and Elaine thought that the food was too complicated and convoluted.

[Straycat80]

Elaine was the comic relief of this season. I liked her. I could tell she lost a significant amount of weight, her face was noticeably thinner. She probably will gain all that weight back because she said her favorite past time was eating,  Lol! 

[Hanahope]

So...I'm guessing we won't see a Ponderosa from Dan?  You have to believe that based on his ejection that Missy and Elizabeth (and Aaron too) should have had a clue that Kelley was right about him and what EM did was wrong.

[ProfCrash]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

So...I'm guessing we won't see a Ponderosa from Dan?  You have to believe that based on his ejection that Missy and Elizabeth (and Aaron too) should have had a clue that Kelley was right about him and what EM did was wrong.

There is no Ponderosa for Dan, he was removed from the game and Ponderosa is for Jury members. We don't know if he was sent home or if he was sent to a private hotel.

[FormerMod-a1]

And he was removed from the game after Elaine was voted off, so they may not even know about it yet (at the time of filming her Ponderosa clips), 

[Hanahope]

12 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

And he was removed from the game after Elaine was voted off, so they may not even know about it yet (at the time of filming her Ponderosa clips), 

that's probably very true.  of course, we won't get to see the next Ponderosa clips until after the finale.

But...A,M and E still seemed to claim complete 'lack of knowledge' about anything wrong with Dan when they issued their apologies after Kelley's boot episode.  One would think that the next person to Ponderosa would say, "hey, Dan was evicted," and there'd be all sorts of speculation as to why, including the reasons said many times by Kelley.  so to claim a complete "I had no idea Dan did anything wrong and Kelley was completely right" seems a bit disengenuous to me.

[LanceM]

4 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

that's probably very true.  of course, we won't get to see the next Ponderosa clips until after the finale.

But...A,M and E still seemed to claim complete 'lack of knowledge' about anything wrong with Dan when they issued their apologies after Kelley's boot episode.  One would think that the next person to Ponderosa would say, "hey, Dan was evicted," and there'd be all sorts of speculation as to why, including the reasons said many times by Kelley.  so to claim a complete "I had no idea Dan did anything wrong and Kelley was completely right" seems a bit disengenuous to me.

They were talking about what they knew at the time Kellee was voted off the show (when they were all on the island). They obviously learned more after talking with Kellee and others in Ponderosa, or talking with others after the show and from what they saw on tv.

[Ellee]

Does the jury get to see the last TC with the next person getting voted out?

Could TPTB be so completely clueless that they would let Kellee walk in to Tribal and see for the first time that there is no Dan without a warning?  Missy and Elizabeth too?

[bunnyface]

And honestly, no matter what they knew when, they couldn't very well say "wait until you see what happened next!"  They had to maintain that they knew nothing, whether they did or not.  

[Straycat80]

Was there no Ponderosa for Janet and Lauren? 

[enoughcats]

6 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

Was there no Ponderosa for Janet and Lauren? 

Double dog dare them to omit one of my favorites.

[LanceM]

Here is Janet's Ponderosa. Nice to see Janet and Elizabeth aout swimming together out in the water and working any issues they had during the game. Missy too. 

 

 

and Lauen's

 

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by LanceM

[enoughcats]

Janet! for my win.

[Straycat80]

Thank you LanceM! Poor Janet, she couldn’t stop crying. I’m so glad she got the Sia money. I think she had a hard time emotionally in this game. 
Maybe  it was the editing but no one except Elaine seemed happy to see Lauren. 

[JudyObscure]

The three J's!

Janet, Jack and Jamal are three of the most generous, loving, people to ever play the game.

This was really a great cast if one person hadn't taken it all off course.

[Melina22]

Watching the Winners at War Ponderosa video was very enjoyable and satisfying. It was like a mini-movie, and gave me some closure after the necessarily short Zoom closing. 

[Porkchop]

Some Ponderosa videos are up on the CBS All Access site. Click on Full Episodes and scroll down.

https://www.cbs.com/shows/survivor/video/vf7GgfwECHmPGPQEY7UwHKOgdSQipVZg/survivor-season-40-ponderosa-interview-the-queen-sandra-diaz-twine/