His Dark Questions: Questions from Non-Book Readers, Answers from Book Readers

[ElectricBoogaloo]

We have similar threads like this for Game of Thrones and Outlander, so I thought it might be useful for this show too. Sometimes non-book readers have questions about the books but don't want to be spoiled, so here is the place to ask!

Book readers, please use the quote function to quote the question you are answering and then put your answers under the spoiler tag. This allows non-book readers to find out the answers to their questions without being spoiled about everything else asked in the thread.

For example:

Quote

What is Roger's favorite food?

Spoiler

Sausages!

Edited November 5, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Lemur]

13 hours ago, scrb said:

Everyone seems to have these spirit animals or daemons, even the Gyptians, who seem to be some kind of underclass.

But not one or two bloodhounds to help in the search for the missing boy?

I don't know how much of this is "Book Talk", but I'll spoiler tag answers to be on the safe side.

Spoiler

Gyptians = Gypsies.  They're pretty much an underclass.

And yes, they are an underclass so no bloodhounds.

12 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

The only thing I know about this story is that it’s The Anti Narnia.

That said, I have two questions: what do daemons eat? Do real non-daemon animals exist in this world?

Spoiler

Daemons do not eat.  They are a conspicuous, visible part of a person's soul, usually but not always the opposite sex and indicative of a person's personality. So if a person eat, the daemon eats.  If a person gets drunk, the daemon gets drunk.  Extend that in whatever direction your mind will take it. "Real" animals also exist.

8 hours ago, Rickster said:

I don’t remember daemons talking out loud in the book.

Spoiler

They do, usually to their human but occasionally to other people as well.  It happens occasionally.  Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of times it happens, usually when adults are addressing children.

3 hours ago, meligator said:

It's been quite a few years since I read the books but I thought this was a good start and cannot wait for more.

Absolutely, better than the movie. 

2 hours ago, revbfc said:

How does one distinguish a daemon from an animal when out hunting?  Can daemons only be harmed by other daemons?  Is there just no more hunting?

Spoiler

You can just tell when a daemon is a daemon and not an animal.  For one thing, they are usually always close to their humans.  Daemons can be hurt by other daemons.  They can also be hurt by other people.  Hurting one's own daemon is considered a sign of mental illness.  So if an animal is all alone or in a pack of other animals, it's a good bet it's a "real" animal.

19 minutes ago, Kasienka said:

It's been a while since I've read the books, so my memory is kinda foggy on the specifics. I think it was a good first episode, the casting is great ( and James McAvoy on my screen is always appreciated for shallow reasons), so I'll be definitely watching it.

I really, really loved Daniel Craig being casted as Asriel in the movie but hated how he was written.  That said, I'm already enjoying McAvoy as Asriel.  Visually and as an actor. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Lemur

[Lemur]

Love that they opened in the Great Flood, it's a nice call-out to La Belle Sauvage.  

[Cranberry]

Quote

How does one distinguish a daemon from an animal when out hunting?  Can daemons only be harmed by other daemons?  Is there just no more hunting?

Spoiler

Although daemons look just like real animals, humans and real animals can tell they're daemons. Even if there's just one bird daemon flying with a flock of real birds, the humans can pick it out. I don't think the book explains exactly how.

Humans can touch other people's daemons but it's generally taboo. It's described in the books as "the worst breach of etiquette imaginable" and when people's daemons are touched without their consent, the people are said to feel violated. (There are occasional exceptions to the touching rule, like if the humans are lovers.) Daemons often touch each other, though; for example, they'll fight if their humans are fighting or cuddle if their humans are getting romantic. 

Daemons (mostly) cannot move more than a few yards from their humans without causing significant pain to both. Witch daemons (which are all birds) can fly far from witches.

[scrb]

HDM digi dictionary:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/34-hdtv-programming/3052836-his-dark-materials-bbc-hbo-2.html#post58773072

[Bill1978]

I have read Northern Lights, I've seen the movie and even after the first episode I'm still confused over the concept of Dust and the Magisterium's opinion of it.

Is everyone in this Universe aware of the existence of Dust or only academics and the Magisterium?

Does the Magisterium know the truth about what Dust really is (what is it really?) and just wants to supress the knowledge from regular people? And why?

Is Dust 'falling' everywhere in this world but the Northern Lights just allows us to see it?

It's concepts like this that make me feel like I'm not intelligent. Haha.

[Athena]

4 hours ago, Bill1978 said:

I have read Northern Lights, I've seen the movie and even after the first episode I'm still confused over the concept of Dust and the Magisterium's opinion of it.

Is everyone in this Universe aware of the existence of Dust or only academics and the Magisterium?

Does the Magisterium know the truth about what Dust really is (what is it really?) and just wants to supress the knowledge from regular people? And why?

Is Dust 'falling' everywhere in this world but the Northern Lights just allows us to see it?

It's concepts like this that make me feel like I'm not intelligent. Haha.

A lot of your questions will also be answered in the following books in the series including The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass. 

Someone else can correct me since I am going off memory. Spoilers for the Northern Lights/Golden Compass:

Spoiler

Dust is a controversial topic that only scholars and the Magisterium are really aware of.

The Magisterium think Dust relates to original sin. Dust settles on consciousness and when daemons are fixed. It's not the complete truth. In later books, it's explained that dust became to exist when consciousness began.

I think Dust is most seen easily in the northern lights because of the opening. Dust is everywhere and you can communicate with it through certain means. 

[Cranberry]

Quote

I can't help but notice that all of the daemons shown so far are on the smallish side and of a rather docile nature.   Where are the elephants, giraffes, lions, tigers, bears (oh my!)?

Spoiler

It's the same in the books, for the most part -- the snow leopard is one of the biggest daemons we see among named characters. People can and do have lion, wolf, and hyena daemons and the like, but I can't recall if elephants or giraffes are mentioned in the books (it's been a while since I read them).

Relatedly, we know that children's daemons can shift into any creature, real or imaginary, but there seems to be a size constraint -- at one point, Pan shifts into a dragon, but it's only the size of a deerhound. I'm not sure if settled daemons have a size constraint.

Edited to add:

[Lemur]

On 11/9/2019 at 8:53 AM, Athena said:

  Hide contents

Dust is a controversial topic that only scholars and the Magisterium are really aware of.

The Magisterium think Dust relates to original sin. Dust settles on consciousness and when daemons are fixed. It's not the complete truth. In later books, it's explained that dust became to exist when consciousness began.

I think Dust is most seen easily in the northern lights because of the opening. Dust is everywhere and you can communicate with it through certain means. 

Exactly.  If I may expound a bit, Dust is ....

Spoiler

the physical manifestation of consciousness, the ability to discern right from wrong.  So in that, yes it is related to Original Sin (and incidentally to very first scene we see of Lyra, who is receiving a lecture on the Garden of Eden).  Why it's controversial has to do with the nature and necessity of religion.  If Dust is a physical, elementary particle like a neutron or electron but without a charge, and if it is only attracted to adults (i.e. those that know right from wrong, those whose daemons have settled), what if the Magisterium can find a way to keep children from never gaining the knowledge or ability to discern right from wrong?  It would return humanity to the state they were in pre-banishment from Eden.  

On 11/12/2019 at 12:27 AM, Cranberry said:

  Hide contents

It's the same in the books, for the most part -- the snow leopard is one of the biggest daemons we see among named characters. People can and do have lion, wolf, and hyena daemons and the like, but I can't recall if elephants or giraffes are mentioned in the books (it's been a while since I read them).

Relatedly, we know that children's daemons can shift into any creature, real or imaginary, but there seems to be a size constraint -- at one point, Pan shifts into a dragon, but it's only the size of a deerhound. I'm not sure if settled daemons have a size constraint.

Edited to add:

You'd have to think of the physical constraints of settling into an animal shape. 

Spoiler

Consider the gyptian story of the sailor who's daemon settled into a dolphin.  It placed a huge logistical constraint on where they could live and work and the man was never truly happy on account of it always have to be at sea or really close to it.

[Lemur]

Quote

This is what I was hinting at, why can a bird daemon be far away from a person without anybody questioning it and a monkey daemon be half as far away and everybody thinks it is a miracle.

So, how far a daemon can be from a person depends on a couple of things ...

The first is how well they can bare the pain of their daemon being far away and vice versa.  Some people deal with it better than others.  Some daemons can go much farther, some prefer to stay close.  For example, in one book set in the same universe that's not covered by this series, a character's daemon is able to watch over a child while he is fighting the big bad a good ways away.  It's painful, but they manage.  But it's also fairly rare.

There are three other possibilities ... all of which are heavy spoilers ...

Spoiler

1. She's a witch.  

2. She's been through the Land of the Dead and came out.

3.  She's been separated from her daemon.

None of these are likely or canonical.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Lemur

[morakot]

On 11/11/2019 at 9:27 PM, Cranberry said:

I can't help but notice that all of the daemons shown so far are on the smallish side and of a rather docile nature.   Where are the elephants, giraffes, lions, tigers, bears (oh my!)?

Spoiler

There is mention of larger daemons who have to be a little bit further away from their humans later in the first book. Sailors have dolphin or other water-based daemons so can only come on land if they stay near the water.  When they're at sea, their daemons are on the other side of the boat.

Edited November 14, 2019 by morakot
added spoiler tag

[LeGrandElephant]

I have read the books, many times over the years, but I haven’t read the first book recently.

Spoiler

I’m trying to remember, is the part about Mrs Coulter bring far away from her demon in the book? And is it ever specifically explained, eg by her having undergone intercession? But I never thought she and her demon had been cut. Was there any other explanation, like her having undergone trials like a witch, maybe in a different way using the southern magic she had studied? I remember in the book it was stated she had studied in the south about creepy magic for making people into zombies by taking their demons, and that kind of thing. But I can’t remember a specific explanation for her being able to separate from her demon.

I do remember in the second or third book she just tells the Spectres to be able to fly and then suddenly they can, which annoyed me as a bit of rule breaking with no real explanation. So maybe her being apart from her demon is another example of that?

[starri]

On 11/17/2019 at 3:38 AM, LeGrandElephant said:

And is it ever specifically explained,

Spoiler

eg by her having undergone intercession? But I never thought she and her demon had been cut.

Spoiler

IIRC, don't the severed daemons just sort of become non-corporeal?  I haven't read the book in years, but I think I remember them being kept in jars?

[Cranberry]

Re: Mrs. Coulter and the golden monkey / the kids' daemons:

Spoiler

It's never explained why Marisa and the monkey can be so far apart. It could just be that they're ignoring the pain, or perhaps they're not as emotionally close as most people are with their daemons (he never talks to her; she never calls him by his name), so they can move farther apart without feeling as strong of a pull.

As for the severed daemons: The ones Lyra found caged were pale and confused, but still corporeal (when they escaped, they left footprints in the snow). The nurses up north had also undergone the operation, and their daemons were still beside them, just as incurious, trotting little "pets" that seemed to Lyra as if they were sleepwalking.

[plurie]

Could Pan have turned into a pony for Lyra to ride when they're trying to escape?

[Athena]

On 11/16/2019 at 10:38 PM, LeGrandElephant said:

I have read the books, many times over the years, but I haven’t read the first book recently.

  Hide contents

I’m trying to remember, is the part about Mrs Coulter bring far away from her demon in the book? And is it ever specifically explained, eg by her having undergone intercession? But I never thought she and her demon had been cut. Was there any other explanation, like her having undergone trials like a witch, maybe in a different way using the southern magic she had studied? I remember in the book it was stated she had studied in the south about creepy magic for making people into zombies by taking their demons, and that kind of thing. But I can’t remember a specific explanation for her being able to separate from her demon.

I do remember in the second or third book she just tells the Spectres to be able to fly and then suddenly they can, which annoyed me as a bit of rule breaking with no real explanation. So maybe her being apart from her demon is another example of that?

Spoiler

As @Cranberry said, it's never explained in the books. Marissa is an interesting character; she's basically a sociopath as described by Metatron in Amber Spyglass. I think we should interpret her distancing from the monkey as her own distancing from her own soul/spirit. She seems to endure the pain and/or has experimented with it growing up like all children do (Lyra and Pan try it in the books and it's too much for her). Marisa is just better at it than most because it justifies a means as with everything she does. We are told she is extremeley cold and calculating if she gets power or results. They aren't as far apart as witches and their daemons, but much more than normal people. 

[Affogato]

I really have to reread the books. 

[starri]

Did Lyra find out the truth of her parentage in Northern Lights?  I don't know why, but I remembered it as being later.

[Cranberry]

15 minutes ago, starri said:

Did Lyra find out the truth of her parentage in Northern Lights?  I don't know why, but I remembered it as being later.

Spoiler

She did, yeah. Mrs. Coulter didn't tell her who her father was, though; she found out about both of her parents from John Faa in chapter seven... so quite early on in the first book, really!

[Lemur]

19 hours ago, starri said:

Did Lyra find out the truth of her parentage in Northern Lights?  I don't know why, but I remembered it as being later.

Spoiler

John Faa tells her before the Roping in the Fens. 

On 11/19/2019 at 11:53 AM, plurie said:

Could Pan have turned into a pony for Lyra to ride when they're trying to escape?

Spoiler

No.  Not a full sized one she could ride.  Even when he turns into a dragon to fight, he's never bigger than a wolfhound. 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Lemur

[scrb]

So what is the advantage of trying to separate someone from a daemon?

Prepubescent kids have daemons who change before they settle.  Admins stop morphing when the person they’re linked to reach puberty?

Or are settled daemons some kind of allegory for puberty?

[Cranberry]

24 minutes ago, scrb said:

So what is the advantage of trying to separate someone from a daemon?

Prepubescent kids have daemons who change before they settle.  Admins stop morphing when the person they’re linked to reach puberty?

Or are settled daemons some kind of allegory for puberty?

That will all be explained shortly on the show, but:

Spoiler

yeah, the Magisterium thinks that when a kid goes through puberty and their daemon settles and Dust becomes more attracted to them, that means they're more susceptible to "troublesome thoughts and feelings" that lead them to sin. Dust is, to the Magisterium, a physical manifestation of original sin (as they believe it was first attracted to Adam and Eve when they ate the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden). Intercision could be compared to castration in a way, or to a lobotomy -- it reduces people to incurious rule-followers and turns their daemons into "little trotting pets," as Lyra puts it.

[Shenanigan]

Can one person's daemon hurt another person? I was wondering when the doctor grabbed Pan if he couldn't have shifted into the arctic fox and bitten the guy. Or can daemons just hurt other daemons?

[Cranberry]

7 hours ago, Shenanigan said:

Can one person's daemon hurt another person? I was wondering when the doctor grabbed Pan if he couldn't have shifted into the arctic fox and bitten the guy. Or can daemons just hurt other daemons?

Spoiler

There's a thing called "the great taboo" that prevents daemons from touching other humans, or humans from touching daemons besides their own. They could, but they won't, not even in a fight. In the book when Lyra found those caged daemons, she freed them and they all wanted to crowd around and touch her and feel her warmth, but the great taboo prevented it.

There are some upcoming instances of daemons touching humans and vice versa, but I won't spoil those.

Here's what happened in the book when Pan was grabbed:

And suddenly all the strength went out of her.

It was if an alien hand had reached right inside where no hand had a right to be, and wrenched at something deep and precious. 

She felt faint, dizzy, sick, disgusted, limp with shock.

One of the men was holding Pantalaimon.

He had seized Lyra's daemon in his human hands, and poor Pan was shaking, nearly out of his mind with horror and disgust. His wildcat shape, his fur now dull with weakness, now sparking glints of anbaric alarm... He curved toward his Lyra as she reached with both hands for him...

They fell still. They were captured.

She felt those hands... It wasn't allowed... Not supposed to touch... Wrong...

[Shenanigan]

Thank you, Cranberry!

[paramitch]

Answering questions from Episode 1 thread:

On 11/5/2019 at 7:04 AM, Katsullivan said:

The only thing I know about this story is that it’s The Anti Narnia.

That said, I have two questions: what do daemons eat? Do real non-daemon animals exist in this world?

Spoiler

Daemons do not need to eat or drink. They are spiritual creatures -- they are physical, touchable beings, but the externalization of the soul. But they will grow weak if their human grows weak (starved, sick, etc.).

Yes, non-daemon animals exist in the worlds of "His Dark Materials." Most of the time, the inhabitants of that world seem instantly able to know which is which.

On 11/5/2019 at 4:43 PM, revbfc said:

Though I am very much on board, and accept this world as is, I do have a couple of question about daemons.

How does one distinguish a daemon from an animal when out hunting?  Can daemons only be harmed by other daemons?  Is there just no more hunting?

Spoiler

Most daemons must stay close to their humans so are easy to distinguish, and beyond that seem to be instantly distinguishable by inhabitants of that world. Also, daemons talk, animals don't.

Daemons can be harmed by other daemons. Hunting or slaughter of animals goes on routinely as in many cultures.

Hope this helps! No spoilers were included, as best I could. 🙂

Edited December 16, 2019 by SilverStormm
Added tags - mostly because that's the format for this topic

[Cranberry]

In the episode 5 thread, @Bill1978 asked:

Quote

Another dumb question, I assume the Land of the Dead is only for the humans across the multiverse? Or is it only humans from Lyra's world? Like if a Mulefa dies, or those tiny people do they end up in the Land of the Dead or somewhere else. Cause we only saw human ghosts.

I assume they only included humans in the show due to budget constraints (and made them solid for the same reason), but the book says:

Spoiler

So they set off, and the numberless millions of ghosts began to follow them. Behind them, too far back for the children to see, other inhabitants of the world of the dead had heard what was happening and were coming to join the great march. Tialys and Salmakia flew back to look and were overjoyed to see their own people there, and every other kind of conscious being who had ever been punished by the Authority with exile and death. Among them were beings who didn't look human at all, beings like the mulefa, whom Mary Malone would have recognized, and stranger ghosts as well.

 

[Bill1978]

Thank you for the explanation @Cranberry that definitely makes more sense from a world building view than what we saw in the show. Damn those TV budgets.

[Notwisconsin]

Now I think that this is the only place I can legitimately put this:

Why did Pullman decide to base his books on Joseph Smith's Mormon theology? The angels, especially the high ones like Metatron an the Authority, are the exactly the same as Mormon gods.

[Cranberry]

His Dark Materials was inspired by Paradise Lost.

[bluestocking]

On 12/23/2022 at 1:04 PM, Cranberry said:

His Dark Materials was inspired by Paradise Lost.

Very interesting article.  Thanks for the link.  The author doesn't seem to recognize that Milton, Blake, and Pullman all wrote in the tradition of literary alchemy.  Which helps explain why the "Fall" is a good thing in The Amber Spyglass.  Or why Love heals the multiverse.  

[PinkRibbons]

I've also read that the books are a direct response to Narnia (which I have not read, so this is me talking from a lot of heresay), and the refuting the notion of childhood/children being pure and an ideal state. Dust as a literal representation of consciousness and wisdom is directly attached to the onset of puberty in the books, making the clear point that maturation improves a person by giving them wisdom and knowledge. And then the idea of people receiving wisdom and knowledge from elsewhere is of course terrifying to a controlling system like the Magisterium, which wants to be the center of and final say on all knowledge.

[PinkRibbons]

From The Clouded Mountain Thread:

Quote

I wonder how much of everything was the Authority’s doing vs. Metatron’s doing, because otherwise I don’t understand the point of writing in a regent when they could have just battled the Authority. Well, except that they needed two figures so Asriel and Coulter could die taking out one while the knife could fulfill its name by taking out the other. The show could have spent a bit more time on the latter. Did Lyra and Will even know who that was?

I think the idea was to show that having angels in charge is ultimately a bad idea because they are far from infallible. The Authority was the Big Bad who laid the groundwork for all the oppressive religious regimes, but by this point in the story he is only an angel who has aged to the point of extreme senility. Lyra and Will don't know who he was, and I'm not entirely sure they ever do in-universe. IIRC in the books they just come across his chariot, open it to try and help and see a feeble old angel who basically falls apart at the slightest touch and seems relieved about it.

One thing I think the show really misstepped with is not saying explicitly that the angels are actually physically very weak for the most part. Lower-level ones have trouble keeping a corporeal form and do not have much body strength. It's why Balthamos dies after killing Father Gomez. The relatively small physical exertion is too much for him, and it was already very difficult for him to stay together without Baruch. Like the Authority, losing his reason for existing is enough to scatter him to the winds.

[Black Knight]

On 1/2/2023 at 12:22 AM, PinkRibbons said:

I think the idea was to show that having angels in charge is ultimately a bad idea because they are far from infallible. The Authority was the Big Bad who laid the groundwork for all the oppressive religious regimes, but by this point in the story he is only an angel who has aged to the point of extreme senility.

It has been a very long time since I read the books, and while I've read the first more times than I can count, I've only read the second 2-3 times, and the third once. (The diminishing sensawunda aspect is why.) So was the Authority ever God?

[PinkRibbons]

The Deity that people worshiped as God was The Authority, yes. I think the idea is that the multiverse is instead powered by Dust, thus making Dust a threat to the Angel who pretended to be the great Creator, leading to the Church cracking down against it.