S15.E03: The Rupture

[Bergamot]

One thing that bothered me about "Lilith's Crook" or Horn, or Vacuum Cleaner, or whatever you want to call it, is what a lazy plot device it was. Are we supposed to believe that Lilith was in sole possession, for all that time, of a magical object that could give her godlike powers -- perhaps even make her Chuck's equal -- and never bothered to use it for herself? Because I don't believe it.

And they made it clear in the episode that all the demons knew about it -- Bel said that Lilith never had to use it, because it was enough that they knew she had it.  Well, Lilith was destroyed years ago. No other demon tried to steal it? Not even Crowley? And I guess Lucifer wasn't interested? It wasn't that impossible for someone to get at.

I know they needed to invent a magical McGuffin to allow them to fight back against what Chuck had done. But the show could have at least come up with a McGuffin that made sense in regard to the history of the show. I guess attempting to achieve plausibility would have been too much work.

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Well, Lilith was destroyed years ago. No other demon tried to steal it? Not even Crowley? And I guess Lucifer wasn't interested? It wasn't that impossible for someone to get at.

Especially Crowley, because he mentioned at some point that he could read Enochian. Phogy made it sound like no demon could and that was the only reason it was still there.  Only angels cold.  And prophets, I guess.  Which, since Kevin was down there, you'd think he would have tried to trick him into opening it.  I know there was some deal with the door being locked, but Crowley figured out how to get into Lucifer's cage. Or at least get someone out of Lucifer's cage. As did Cas. Unbreakable things are easily broken when plot convenient.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

I know they needed to invent a magical McGuffin to allow them to fight back against what Chuck had done. But the show could have at least come up with a McGuffin that made sense in regard to the history of the show. I guess attempting to achieve plausibility would have been too much work.

They have a history of pulling "magical objects" out of their ass to save the day.

I only hope "the horn" hurt when they pulled it out. 😊

[MysteryGuest]

Finally watched this last night.  People are dropping like flies around here...Rowena, not-Jack and Ketch.  Rowena got a good death, but it still pissed me off.  Are they really going to spend the rest of the season just killing off everyone?  I certainly hope not.

The argument between Dean and Cas was pretty contrived, as well.  How long was Cas gong to wait before telling Dean that it was all just a ploy to get the weapon and become all-powerful?  I really didn't like that scene.  I don't necessarily have a problem with Dean directing some misplaced anger toward Cas, but it could have been done much better, IMO.  We know that Misha will not be in every episode, so they needed a reason to explain his absence, but they should have been able to come up with something more realistic that wouldn't make Cas look like a ass and Dean like a bastard.  Oh well...

[Myrelle]

41 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Finally watched this last night.  People are dropping like flies around here...Rowena, not-Jack and Ketch.  Rowena got a good death, but it still pissed me off.  Are they really going to spend the rest of the season just killing off everyone?  I certainly hope not.

The argument between Dean and Cas was pretty contrived, as well.  How long was Cas gong to wait before telling Dean that it was all just a ploy to get the weapon and become all-powerful?  I really didn't like that scene.  I don't necessarily have a problem with Dean directing some misplaced anger toward Cas, but it could have been done much better, IMO.  We know that Misha will not be in every episode, so they needed a reason to explain his absence, but they should have been able to come up with something more realistic that wouldn't make Cas look like a ass and Dean like a bastard.  Oh well...

Welcome to Dabbernatural.

[Castiels Cat]

On 10/25/2019 at 12:37 PM, ahrtee said:

TBH, I knew Rowena was going to sacrifice herself at Sam's hands as soon as I saw Ruth's tweet about the "twist on the prophecy."  I figured it meant Sam was going to kill Rowena except they'd make it into a good thing where they'd both be heroes (Chuck forbid either of them would end up looking bad.)  Not going into BvJ here, because that would be too easy.

At first I agreed with Cas, that they couldn't let one demon have all that power (after all, they spent all that time trying to stop Cas from eating all the souls in Purgatory because it would make him a "god").  But thinking about it from Dean's POV, well, several billion ghosts all over the world?  No matter how many hunters were still around to fight, there was no way to contain that.  There would be massive casualties everywhere, and he would (of course) feel guilty for having unleashed all that (true or not).  But one supercharged demon?  Well, they'd already taken on Lucifer (many, many, MANY times) and all the other archangels, supercharged Cas, Amara and Chuck himself, so I can see where he might think that was at least more possible to stop.  

I do think Cas should have spoken up sooner and Dean should have listened, but they were both caught up in their own angst(s?)--Cas over Jack, Dean over Mary--and seeing only the bad things that led up to them.  So Cas saw that Dean had put Sam and Mary above Jack (and therefore, him and his feelings) and Dean thought that Cas had favored Jack over them; so in *both* their minds they felt betrayed and unimportant.  The only thing I hated is that it was framed as Dean being mean and Cas being noble and sad.

Except only Jack was super powerful and extremely dangerous because he no longer had a soul. 

[Castiels Cat]

On 10/24/2019 at 9:24 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

I hope it's OK that I started the thread. Surprised there wasn't one already.

Cut to the hospital with Ketch...damn it show stop trying to make Ketch happen.  Oh wait...he's dead? For real? Wow...now I feel bad for complaining about him.

Rowena sacrificed herself? I refuse to believe it! Rowena is just starting her next plan...becoming Queen of Hell!

Damn show really messed me up with Rowena. I hated her at first but she's really become one of my favorite recurring characters. I hate that she died.

The show is certainly wrapping up all the guest stars/recurring characters. They better not kill off Donna and Jody!

I was going to complain about Dean holding a grudge but, I realized it hasn't been that long (in show time) since Mary died. I can see why Dean is still angry with Castiel. I don't think it's warranted, Jack didn't go evil her made a mistake. Cas should have told The Boys about his concerns BUT, they've all made that mistake before.

My theory is that we are kinda sorta heading back to a season 5 scenario so lots of these characters do not belong.

Some will stay because... Jody was season 5... although maybe this time zombies will get her.

Amara is more God than God.

Death is Death and may reap God.

The Empty may have cred.

Jack is probably considered a nauseating fan fave... and although he definitely is dead and powerless now... lol!canon plus many handwaves says he is resurrected with a powerup or somesuch. His body is technically in hell. His nephilim powers are scattered his stolen archangel powers (which should not have worked per season 11 and 13 but I guess the spell just needed more grace???) are scattered. It reputedly takes God to resurrect an archangel. The Empty was able to resurrect Cas after was awoken so conveniently he will be outed as the long lost brother to Chuck and Amara probably Chuck's twin.

Do they even know how bad it is or is it just some fans and Jensen. 

[Castiels Cat]

On 10/24/2019 at 10:04 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

It's too bad they ruined Rowena's last episode with the terrible ret-conning Dean and Sam's history with Cas. They not only threw Dean under the bus, they backed it up over him a couple times. 

And since when was Sam the closest thing to a witch they had? Their scenes were like some bad Samwena fan fiction. 

Since he went to Stanford... duh.

[Castiels Cat]

On 10/25/2019 at 10:03 AM, SueB said:

That last scene with Dean and Cas was so intense!  I agree Dean is projecting everywhere, including onto himself.  I liked that they had that little exchange in the crypt where Dean was itching to go shoot something.  He's not a 'wait peacefully til I die' kind of guy.  He's still itching to shoot something.  He's anger is justified and he's lashing out.  I think he will eventually acknowledge that Cas was the guy on the scene and he had to make a call.  Killing Belphagor certainly is consistent with the kind of split-second decision they've all had to make.  

But it also hurts hearing the 'checklist' that Cas went through: 'Jack is dead, God is gone, my powers are failing, and you and Sam have each other.'  As if there was no purpose to Cas if he's not there to protect Sam and Dean; and with Chuck gone (in their minds), then Sam and Dean don't need Cas. Cas is MORE than just a useful ally to Sam and Dean. and they've told him that.  So Cas, IMO, is also lashing out in his own way.  He seems to have learned from Sam & Dean to internalize his anger.  Cas has a lot to be angry about as well.  

I think the REAL issue is that Cas didn't trust Sam and Dean with express his doubts about Jack.  He prized Jack's safety over everything else and went off to find God to ask him to fix Jack. It's what Dean would do if it was Sam. In fact it was what Dean DID when he he put Cas out of the bunker in S9.  

Bless Cas, he really has imprinted on Dean (mostly) and Sam.  

So let me be clear - this is a conversation with two people in pain who have been externally manipulated and are angry - I love them both and don't think either is being 'wrong' in this scene.  It's just an unresolved conflict and neither are in a place where they can 'hug it out'.

I think Sam will see it first: there's a parallel with Cas /Jack to Dean/Sam that no-one has discussed but I think, put in that context, could be how Dean can move past his issues with Cas.  I hope they have that conversation in a few episodes.  In the meantime, it's just too painful for Dean and Cas to be around each other.  And I mean that in a complex relationship versus any kind of romance way. 

I brought up the parallels between Sam and Jack's soullessness and Sam's blood addiction leading to both to commit bad acts, even MURDER on the ATOMIC MONSTERS thread somewhere I think. So yes, there would be common ground on that score. Dean also has the paternal relationship with Jack which was strongly emphasized in season 14. AndUnfortunately killing Mary was a big deal to Dean even if the writers seem to forget sometimes.  Obviously the plot to Atomic Monsters was their ham-handed attempt to introduce this theme.

The b-stories of Chuck's drafts, The End, Sam's demonic powers re-emerging and poor Becky were better than the A story motw.

[Castiels Cat]

On 10/24/2019 at 10:39 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

So Billie's books were right when it came to Sam, not so much for Dean. Shocking.

Michael is still technically in play. It's just not the Michael we were expecting. As far as we know the other Michael left Dean as an open door. He may not need to say "yes". It may be Michael's choice.

They may decide Dean's fate was rewritten by this, that or the other of course.

[Castiels Cat]

On 10/25/2019 at 4:06 PM, PAForrest said:

I watched this one live last night and forgot I'd set it up to record. Something was nagging at my brain, so I went back to look for it, and there it was.

When Rowena is sitting in the crypt after supposedly falling apart, she's reading her grimoire, and when Sam comes over and asks if she's found anything, she's looking at a page with a woman wearing a crown and tentacle like things either going out of her or into her. She then snaps the page shut and tells him no.

Of course, she could have been looking at the spell she described to Sam toward the end, and it's as simple as that. Taking the souls into her, returning them to Hell, like she said. But the picture was of a woman who looked very regal, so I think she was telling the truth only up to a point - that being, she won't die, she will instead become the Queen of Hell. She probably thought Sam wouldn't help her if she told him that part.

I saw the page too and you're right that the woman does not look like she's making a sacrifice.

She played it perfectly.

I have not rewatched yet. She falls apart so quickly and dramatically. Then is very absorbed in the book. 

Good catch.

[Castiels Cat]

On 10/27/2019 at 3:14 PM, catrox14 said:

So, upon a rewatch I still largely dislike this episode.

Something I noticed when Cas killed Belphagor is that I'm not so sure it was entirely based on Belph's betrayal.

I think it was far more vengence than anything else. He has hated him from the moment he saw him in Jack's body. He'd been looking for a reason all along. And how did Cas have the power to smite Belphy to a crisp when he couldn't smite much of anything recently.

My new theory (no spoilers) is that Cas' anger and desire to kill Belphy is what gave him the power to smite him to a rack of bones and ash. And I really don't think it had much at all to do with Belphy's plan. Which is why I now think Cas left because he knows he screwed up the plan and it was out of vengeance. Otherwise why wouldn't he stay to hash the whole thing out?

To me, Dean has actually said much meaner things to Cas like calling him a baby in a trenchcoat and they managed to work it out.. I think Cas left because he feels guilty AF about Mary. So to me, that "break up" is all on Cas.

Good catch. He couldn't even heal Ketch earlier. Yikes. Is this because he's getting his powers via Sam and his hell connection now. 

I know Lucifer and Jack powered up with rage but Cas is neither of those.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Dobian]

Ugh Ketch, what a way to go!

Ugh NotJack, what a way to go!

Ugh Rowena, what a way to go!

I could see Rowena's death coming a mile away.  They've been reminding us how many seasons now that Sam would kill her?

Overall, it was a big improvement over the first two episodes, and I'm glad they resolved that plot thread.  Guess it's back to the monster of the week format for now.

[7kstar]

On 10/26/2019 at 1:00 AM, Cambion said:

But I kinda feel like everybody wants to pick the fly shit out of the pepper now that it's the last season.  Dont get me wrong: You are absolutely entitled to do that!  I will still read your posts and find them useful.  I just want everyone to understand that I'm not here to blow sunshine up your skirts, I'm just not going to hold back on my positivity because of peer pressure.  And I'm not saying the things I am to piss anyone off or anything else.  I'm just going to be the one who see's things a bit differently and I hope you guys will be okay with that.

Just now watched this ep.  By binge watching, this one does much better than the first two of the season.  Not having to wait to see what they will do, made this one flow better even though I knew some characters were toast before it happened.  So waiting allowed me to feel more positive...it actually works better than if I had to wait a week or  few weeks/week.  So far it is the first ep that I wouldn't mind watching parts of it again.

There is not a rule that you must hate it.  If 15 wasn't the last season, I would have taken a long break.  If you like the show that doesn't mean your a bad fan.    I just want the brothers to matter and for some strong moments they do.  But again it is the manufactured pain to create drama.  Also some like to debate and that means keeping your point even if it is a sinking ship.

 

In season 8 -12 I had some moments I really liked and others I hated.  They can't make every ep hit it out of the park.  Dabb has just made the last two seasons my least favorite.  But it is proving a point.  If you are binge watching it doesn't feel as unsatisfying as if you are watching it live.  But I will admit that this show did suffer with pacing.  At times it crept slowly on by and others it felt normal.  But Cas needing Dean's forgiveness...to be honest I just didn't care.  For me that is sad.

Also reading why you liked it might make me see something, I would otherwise miss.

[The Companion]

That sound you heard last night was me screaming in impotent RAAAAAGE that they had poor Rowena stab herself in the uterus, bring all of the souls into her body and then collapse dramatically into the pit. So help me, if she doesn't become the queen of hell, I am burning down someone's house. 

Honestly, the entire thing just felt so overly melodramatic, despite the fact that Ruth and Jared acted the fuck out of it and did everything they could to make it work. I mean, at least they didn't throw her in a bathtub to make everybody sad. She had some agency in her death. I just didn't understand why we had to stab her right in the uterus, and the pairing of the music and the slow mo was just so much. 

Don't get me started on the obvious "I NEED CAS CAUSE REASONS" and Cas is too stupid to realize that when he sees a box only he can open plotline. What? Did he hit his head and forget how demons work? Or hell? 

Meanwhile, Dean is like: LET ME TEXT YOU THE ENTIRE PLAN, DUDE. 

What a hot mess.

[Katy M]

28 minutes ago, The Companion said:

That sound you heard last night was me screaming in impotent RAAAAAGE that they had poor Rowena stab herself in the uterus, bring all of the souls into her body and then collapse dramatically into the pit. So help me, if she doesn't become the queen of hell, I am burning down someone's house. 

Honestly, the entire thing just felt so overly melodramatic, despite the fact that Ruth and Jared acted the fuck out of it and did everything they could to make it work. I mean, at least they didn't throw her in a bathtub to make everybody sad. She had some agency in her death. I just didn't understand why we had to stab her right in the uterus, and the pairing of the music and the slow mo was just so much. 

Don't get me started on the obvious "I NEED CAS CAUSE REASONS" and Cas is too stupid to realize that when he sees a box only he can open plotline. What? Did he hit his head and forget how demons work? Or hell? 

Meanwhile, Dean is like: LET ME TEXT YOU THE ENTIRE PLAN, DUDE. 

What a hot mess.

I think I needed a deep cleansing breath after this episode also.  Actually I think I've needed a deep cleansing breath after every episdoe this season, although I haven't watched the last 2 or 3.  I just can't anymore with this show.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

I think I needed a deep cleansing breath after this episode also.  Actually I think I've needed a deep cleansing breath after every episdoe this season, although I haven't watched the last 2 or 3.  I just can't anymore with this show.

I've watched them and yeah, still need that cleanse. I'm not sure what makes the location of Rowena's stabbing any more or less rage-inducing though. I don't give these hacks enough credit to think it was any kind of symbolism. I hate this episode as much for what it sets up every bit as much as what it is.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I've watched them and yeah, still need that cleanse. I'm not sure what makes the location of Rowena's stabbing any more or less rage-inducing though. I don't give these hacks enough credit to think it was any kind of symbolism. I hate this episode as much for what it sets up every bit as much as what it is.

Yeah, I just thought she was stabbing herself in the stomach.  I didn't really give the knife placement any thought.  I'm not going back to watch again to see if it's more uterus than stomach, because I really couldn't care less.  And, my goal in life has become to not watch any episodes of this season more than once.  If that many times.

[The Companion]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I've watched them and yeah, still need that cleanse. I'm not sure what makes the location of Rowena's stabbing any more or less rage-inducing though. I don't give these hacks enough credit to think it was any kind of symbolism. I hate this episode as much for what it sets up every bit as much as what it is.

Here is a screenshot and with the way the dress gathers, I really think they were going for uterus. Particularly since they did multiple closeups of where she was asking to be stabbed and it seems like a hack writer would do.

[gonzosgirrl]

Meh.  It looks like the diaphragm, or just below the breastbone to me.   Ruth is 5' nothing.  And even though Sam was holding the knife, for all intents and purposes, Rowena killed herself. It make sense she would go for a soft area.

Edited August 19, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Terese]

chest.58 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Meh.  It looks like the diaphragm, or just below the breastbone to me.   Ruth is 5' nothing.  And even though Sam was holding the knife,  For all intents and purposes, Rowena killed herself. It make sense she would go for a soft area.

Diaphragm and breastbone are in the ches

[catrox14]

On 8/18/2020 at 5:37 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Meh.  It looks like the diaphragm, or just below the breastbone to me.   Ruth is 5' nothing.  And even though Sam was holding the knife, for all intents and purposes, Rowena killed herself. It make sense she would go for a soft area.

I always thought they were harkening back to when May and Jessica were killed. The blood looks like the same area which I never considered to be in the uterus just somewhere in the abdominal region.

[ahrtee]

On 8/18/2020 at 11:26 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't give these hacks enough credit to think it was any kind of symbolism.

Ditto.  And 

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I always thought they were harkening back to when May and Jessica were killed. The blood looks like the same area which I never considered to be in the uterus just somewhere in the abdominal region.

That makes much more sense than the idea that these idiots even know where a uterus is.

[gonzosgirrl]

On 8/18/2020 at 9:38 PM, Terese said:

Diaphragm and breastbone are in the ches

Sorry, anatomy isn't my strong suit. I just meant below the ribcage, somewhere soft enough to stab yourself. And now I've officially thought too much about this stupid episode. Lol.

[Terese]

22 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sorry, anatomy isn't my strong suit. I just meant below the ribcage, somewhere soft enough to stab yourself. And now I've officially thought too much about this stupid episode. Lol.

Lol. Me too.

[Scout Finch]

Never would have imagined that Rowena's final death would get me all choked up. Especially considering how I couldn't stand her for quite a long time! I tend to resist overt emotional manipulation in movies and TV shows but not this time, for some reason.

Bobby's was the other one that made me sad. I'm not including the multiple deaths of Dean and Sam since, to no one's surprise, they kept coming back because otherwise there'd be no show. Me: "Yes, it's awful how Sam is all broken up about Dean dying but there are still [x] of seasons so I'm not going to get all worked up about it."