apinknightmare

But he didn't say that specifically about their relationship, he was talking about being both parts of himself. In any event, after he said that, she told him to stop dangling those maybes, and he did. After their talk in the hospital, he never gave her any reason to hope that he would change his mind, and in 3x07 when he thought she was moving on with Ray, he doubled down on it and told her he couldn't be with her again. I just don't see where he gave her any thread of hope to hang onto that would've made it difficult for her to move on. At all.

Eh, I disagree. He didn't respond to that request of hers, true, because maybe still held out hope before their conversation ended. But he never gave any indication once he told her he didn't think he could be with her that he was ever going to change his mind about it. To me, dangling maybes is not saying anything when she says, "I thought you might have meant it," and he doesn't tell her that he was sorry, but he didn't. It's saying "maybe I was wrong," when he told her he couldn't be with someone he could really care about. He is responsible for dangling those maybes. But when they were in the hallway, he said he didn't think he could be himself AND be the Arrow "not now, maybe not ever" - that was maybe a little bit about their relationship, but mostly about him and his frame of mind. He never gave her any "maybes" about someday they could be together, or maybe it would work out at some point. He told her he couldn't be with her in that hallway, and he said it again in 3x07, and neither time did he lead her to believe that it would ever be any different (he probably hoped that it would be, but he never said anything to her that should've or would've given her any hope to hold onto).

They could've had a place, that's the whole point. If it's an actual fight club, someone could've given them a towel, or water, or kept score. Providing support like they do on the show. It's just another instance of these shows focusing on the masks, when most of what makes people root for them when they're wearing them is who they are when they don't have them on (and, for a lot of people it seems, the people in their lives who don't wear one).

No they're not. That club existed purely as a premise for the promo, which is why leaving the support teams out as if they don't exist didn't sit right with some people. If there was a legit canonical fight club that these people went to where Diggle, Felicity, Caitlin and Cisco weren't invited, I doubt there would've been an issue for those who didn't like this promo.

I guess I don't see why she'd be holding onto hope at all when he was consistently telling her he could not be with her. Yes, he loved her, and he told her that several times. But he also told her several times that it wasn't going to happen. Not someday, not maybe. There was no, "please wait for me until this crusade is over and then we can be together." He said that he couldn't be the Arrow and be with her and he had to be alone and he stuck by that. No mixed messages whatsoever there. That, to me, doesn't really seem like he was trying to keep her from moving on at all-quite the opposite, really.

I guess it just comes down to seeing that "don't dangle maybes" conversation differently. He dangled his first maybe back in 2x23 when he told her he loved her and didn't take it back when she brought it up, followed by a summer of (presumed) flirting and a date that ended badly and with him walking the relationship back. I figured he'd been confusing her for so long that she just wanted some kind of closure. When she asked him to tell her that he never loved her, he couldn't do that, because he did love her. And she had just told him that once they talked about it and he called it off, it was over. So, he told her the truth about how he felt so she would know that he wasn't playing games with her. IMO, him being firm in his feelings for her BUT his unwillingness to be with her combined with her flat-out telling him that it would be over once he backed off takes away any of Oliver's responsibility in Felicity's ability to move on. She told him she was going to do it (and she did), he told her he couldn't be with her - any hope she held onto in direct opposition of what he was telling her was on her.

I always got the impression that after the not-so-fake I love you that Felicity was confused about his intentions with her, and wasn't sure where she stood even after the date. She asked him to say he "never" loved her so she could finally get some closure on that since he wouldn't deny it on Lian Yu, and he couldn't do that (she never told him not to tell her he loved her if he couldn't be with her). On the flip, she flat-out told him that after they talked it was over, so why should it matter if he told her how he felt about her on two other occasions? It clearly wasn't keeping her from moving on, because she would've moved on with Ray sooner if he hadn't run away after they kissed. And like I wrote before, if she was holding out hope for him, then that's on her because he made it clear he was not an option.

He didn't tell her he loved her in 3x07, he said that he knew what it felt like to want someone but not be able to be with them, and that he had to be alone, which is the exact same thing he told her in 3x01 after he told her they couldn't be together. That's a pretty big "move on" IMO, especially since he knew she WAS moving on. He reiterated to her, after knowing she was going out with Palmer, that he was not an option for her. The thing I'm not really getting about your argument is this: "We all know that every time he repeated his "love you but can't be with you" mantra it was like rubbing salt in an open wound for her." He did that one time after their initial breakup. Once. In 3x07. He brought up his feelings about her outright on two other occasions: once in 3x05 with the whole "and you know how I feel about her" thing which he saw her bristle at, and again before he left to fight Ra's. Yes, Oliver telling Felicity he loved her then was selfish, but I don't blame him for it, and I personally don't think it was cruel. He did seem a little hesitant to tell her and did so only after she asked him. If she hadn't, I think he would've walked out without telling her at all (the fact that he brought it up in the first place was bad writing, but...eh). Those are three times throughout the course of a whole season - any other conversation about feelings was based on things that were already said, so it's not like Oliver kept bringing it up at all, so I'm not sure where that's coming from? And if Felicity couldn't move on because she was holding out hope for Oliver, then that's on her. Like I wrote in my previous post - Oliver never wavered in what he was telling her: I love you, but I can't be with you. So, I guess I'm not really seeing how he toyed with her emotions given the fact that he told her in that hallway in 3x01 that he couldn't tell her that he didn't love her but that he also couldn't be with her and stuck to that until the end of the season.

Personally, I don't have any issue with Oliver talking about his feelings to Felicity, and there are a few reasons for that. He never talked about how he felt about her in order to emotionally manipulate her - his stance was always the same in that he loved/wanted to be with her, but didn't feel like he could. In 3x05, he just told her that he was glad she went through what she did because those things made her into a person that he loved. She bristled at that, and he had a visible reaction to it, so he tried to shut it down. In 3x07, he reiterated what he had already told her (vicariously, through his conversation with Carrie Cutter). That's when he knew she was possibly moving on, so if he was trying to keep her from doing that, telling her that he couldn't be with her again seems like a bad move. In 3x09, I can't blame him for telling her he loved her right before he was going off to fight a duel that could possibly end in his death. I'd do the same, no matter how messy my relationships with people were at the time. I'd feel differently if him saying those things was keeping Felicity from moving on, but they weren't. If Ray hadn't run out on her after their kiss in 3x07, there's no doubt in my mind that the two of them would've started a relationship then. Felicity didn't tell Ray she wanted to keep it professional because she was still holding out hope for Oliver, she told him that because he did the SAME THING that Oliver did, which was dangle that carrot and then run away. And when Oliver came back from being "dead" and they had their fight in the alleyway, while she did tell him that she dreamed of him coming back and doing things differently, hoping that almost dying would've changed his outlook on life, I think that's a dream she would've had regardless, because she knew from the get go that Oliver not being with her was never because he didn't WANT it - he obviously wanted it desperately. Even when they had their blowout about Malcolm, she didn't tell him to stop telling her about his feelings because she was having a hard time moving on (and if that was the case for her, then that would've been justified), but she ultimately told him that she didn't even want him to love her because she didn't think that love meant very much. After that, he didn't speak about his feelings for her to her apart from wanting her to be happy. And their night in NP was initiated by Felicity, knowing that he was giving himself up to become the new Ra's, so I can't fault him for anything there since her eyes were open to the situation and she did what she wanted to. If Oliver had been wishy-washy about the whole thing and used his feelings to keep her hanging on, I would feel differently. But his story was the same from the beginning in that he loved her, but he couldn't be with her.

Perhaps this character is a love interest in a different timeline?

Those people aren't totally off base though. Oliver was tentative about starting something with Felicity at the restaurant when he said "maybe" he was wrong about being able to be with someone he could really care about. When he bought her back to the lair, he told Diggle that the only explanation for him being so distracted that he didn't notice a GPS tracker had been planted on him was because he was focused on Felicity and their date. So I don't think he was directly thinking, "I'm going to break this off with you to keep you, Felicity, safe," but more along the lines of, "When Oliver Queen wants happiness, he gets distracted enough that people (including Felicity) get hurt. So Oliver Queen can't want or have happiness and be Arrow at the same time." So, it was a decision indirectly based on keeping her safe, because I'm sure seeing her go all 'splodey panicked him a little. I suppose it's a calculated risk he's willing to take to have him work with her, since he can't Arrow without her. But he knew from experience that he could live with out her romantically, and wasn't willing to chance her safety. Or something.

I just don't think it's realistic for Diggle (or anyone, really) to be Oliver's primary support throughout the whole series. When Oliver first came back from the island and was closed off and Diggle was the only one he really let in? Sure. But relationships change, and people's needs change. Oliver's opening up emotionally to more people. Now he's open with Felicity, and he's getting there with Thea. Felicity being his girlfriend now, it's natural that she would be his primary support system, much like Lyla and Diggle are for each other. In the first season and part of the second, Diggle was the only one helping Oliver out in the field. Then that expanded to include Sara, then Roy, then Laurel, and now Thea. There are probably always going to be things that Oliver only feels like he can share with Diggle, what with the soldier mentality and all that, but relationships change. I'm sure they'll change again. I don't necessarily like it, but...it is what it is, I guess.

No, she and Oliver are currently tied to chairs in the burning Queen mansion. What's especially great about her being kidnapped - again - is that just last issue (or maybe it was the one before it), she said something about how someday she might put a mask on. Like, she's considering becoming a hero (which, the line was stupid, especially in light of the reasoning we were supposed to buy into for her putting the damn mask on in the first place), and then she gets kidnapped, AGAIN, in the next issue.

AK's actually did make me laugh:

Barry went to her for info over on The Flash twice after she quit, IIRC. It didn't make sense to have her quit at all, really.

Someone who knew Oliver in high school (I think, I can't remember) is all hopped up on mirakuru and wants revenge on Oliver. He met Laurel somewhere in the last book and asked her about Oliver. She told Oliver that this dude was looking for him, and Oliver goes after him, alone, at Queen mansion. He's got Laurel as a hostage - he broke into her apartment and knocked her out. This dude wants Oliver to see what it's like to watch someone he loves die or something, and Oliver tries to negotiate with him to let Laurel go, then the guy sets Queen mansion on fire.

This Lyla/ARGUS thing is a mess. Why did they have her quit and be all morally confused over it if she was just going to go back? She did quit, didn't she? Because somehow she was still using ARGUS resources after the fact and that was never addressed.

DID Laurel who STILL hasn't moved! Ahaha

Do the S 2.5 comics take place in the future, or... Good lord, man. Does no one proofread this?

For, like, half of an episode, until Sara died. And he was out in the field with Roy fighting Brick until Laurel suited up and he—for whatever reason—decided he was more useful staying in the lair, even though he was the most experienced fighter out of all of them.

He was probably waiting in the van like always!

If I had to guess I'd say it might have something to do with Ray giving Felicity a VP role at PT. But that's an incredibly simple view of things, since Ray and Oliver both positioned Felicity at work for their own personal gain. Ray's just happened to be a promotion rather than a demotion. Maybe she thinks Ray challenges her more? IDK. I'd say she might think that Ray valued her intelligence more than Oliver, but he clearly didn't, since he felt the need to check and see if she did that thing he couldn't do correctly or whatever it was that happened during that ep (that I can't remember, haha). In other words, I don't know.

KC had input, but if TPTB didn't like it, it wouldn't exist as we know it today. So, whether Maya had something to do with those ridiculous buckles, whether they were KC's idea or some order from on high for a certain aesthetic, someone at the top signed off on it. Whoever it was, this is on them.

She did. She designed a lot of the costumes on Arrow, and they manage to look good. She's allowed a miss IMO.

I think she wants something for Felicity outside of Oliver too (I do as well), but unfortunately her relationship with Ray became her thing outside of Oliver. So her non-relationship relationship was just another relationship. I hope she gets something for herself as well, but I don't expect too much out of these writers, since they like to tie almost everything back to Oliver somehow.