WearyTraveler

Clear eyes, full hearts....

It's a possibility, I suppose, although I don't know how they would go about conveying that message on the show. Nymeria can't talk and explain her feelings, and if another character does it, it would either feel like exposition or like the opinion of a character, which wouldn't be a definitive thing.

My favourite thing about this chapter is how Jon remembers all the stuff that Ned used to tell him and Rob. It provides us with a little window into how they were raised and how Ned trained them both equally. Jon certainly has his hang-ups about being a bastard, but I don't think his feelings developed out of something Ned said or did; when he remembers the things that hurt him growing up, it was always what someone else said or did, sometimes his "brothers and sisters", who never appeared to have the intention of hurting him. They were just repeating what they'd heard someone else say.

I think what the OP was saying is that there's a possibility events developed as follows from Mel's POV: MEL: I need to sacrifice this boy Edric to wake up the stone dragons STAN: No way! He's my own blood, and only a boy! Mel goes away and tries to figure out how to convince Stan to agree. She looks into the flames and sees that three kings are about to die MEL (in her head): Eureka! I'll make Stan believe my magic using King's blood can kill these three guys who are going to die anyway! Mel goes to Stannis STAN: I told you, no! MEL: Let me prove to you the power of King's blood, would you allow me to leech the boy? STAN: mmmh, well, ok, I guess leeching won't cause him any harm...

In the chapter when Jaime returns to KL and has his first meeting with his father, Tywin says (after seeing Jaime's stump) "If Lady Catelyn thinks...."; then Jaime interrupts him to clarify that Catelyn wasn't responsible for his hand. This has always puzzled me, in light of the discussions the characters have in this chapter, where they seem 99.99% sure Catelyn is dead (the second wolf pelt). And if they weren't absolutely sure at this time, they must have been later, as everybody and their brother knew the Freys had sewn Grey Wind's head to Robb's corpse and dumped Catelyn's body in the river. Add to that the points some of you have made regarding the logic of keeping her as a hostage, and I can only conclude that the writing is so muddled here because George went back and forth on exactly how and when he was going to have Catelyn become Stoneheart.

It's been said half a hundred times... :'D

Are there any links to these pics?

I can't help but think that Catelyn was projecting a little here. While we see that she's miserable, the music is awful and the food is stingy, all the other scenes she describes are not as unhappy as her own and Robb's. Dacey is dancing, the Greatjon is drinking Freys under the table, people are conversing, Manderly is heartily eating... Granted, it wasn't as great as it could have been, but I think that people were actually enjoying themselves before all hell broke loose. This when my heart broke and I knew for sure Robb would die. I really, really, really love the direwolves in this story; perhaps because they are the only true friends anyone in this world could have. Not even Dany's dragons are as loyal or as connected with her as the Starks are with their direwolves. Other skinchangers don't share the same bond with their beasts either; when Varamyr's eagle gets roasted by Mel and he's writhing on the floor, his shadow cat takes off running and his two wolves go at each other's throats. A direwolf, by contrast, will die defending any Stark who is in danger; just look at Summer (who I hope survives in the books): he killed the man attacking Catelyn and defended Jon against the Thenns. I forgive the show a lot because the medium is so different, and I do think sometimes their changes are for the better (such as having Catelyn slap Roose and not Edwyn, as some of you have pointed out), but I can't forgive the way they treat the wolves in their version. She also swears on her honor as a Tully and her honor as a Stark, another moving moment for me because it showed that Cat had truly embraced the North and felt fully like a Stark. It's one of the few times I can relate to the character; having lived most of my adult life in different countries, I can understand the difficulty in fitting in and embracing another culture and another way of life. And Catelyn really did do just that; she became a Stark on her own right, not because she had to, but because she wanted to and she embraced the best part of the Starks' culture: their honor. I absolutely believed her when she said that. She would have never broken that vow; maybe later generations would have, and I'm sure both families would have hated each other with the force of a thousand suns, but Catelyn (and Robb, had he lived) would have kept her word. Upon first read, I think I almost cried when I read this line. It's heartbreaking without using any clichés, it conveys so much with such few words... it's almost literary in its beauty. This from the same person who will shortly grace us with the lines: "Do me, Jaimie! Do me now!".... Sigh! It's baffling, really. Given that the next chapter sort of ends with a similar note (Arya being hit by the Hound's axe), I should have known that Arya would survive, but this whole chapter is so shocking and depressing, so unexpected, that I actually thought Arya was dead too. Yeah, I wasn't spoiled for this book, and I knew right away it was Roose. The man had already betrayed Robb by sending people to Duskendale, freeing Jaimie and then keeping all this information to himself. The fact that Northerners had already killed Smalljon and the pink coat were a dead giveaway. In the upcoming Tyrion chapter Tywin will explain the marriages that were arranged. I don't think they would include Fair Walda because she's a widow and her maidenhead is gone. I don't think the books say anything concrete about this, but it seems that virginity is crucial, and unless a woman brings a lot to the table, widows are not a desirable match, especially when there are other women, just as suitable, who are still virgins in House Frey. I think offering Fair Walda to Edmure could have been perceived as a slight. I can certainly see Edmure complaining about being given the one Frey woman who was not a virgin. Tywin would probably consider that a slight, as well. The only widows who have a chance of remarrying are those with inheritance, such as Lysa, and those who represent the only marriage alliance with a strong, powerful house, such as Cersei. The rest are seen as less than, in most cases. Me too. Narratively speaking, the moment that Robb made Jon his heir, he signed his book death. I was a believer of R+L=J from the first book (which had hints that the show's first season completely omitted), so, I should have guessed it sooner. I think the reason I didn't was because of the battle plan to re-take the North that Robb conceived. It was really perfect, and I was expecting Howland Reed to show up and help re-take Winterfell for his friend's son. We were privy to every military strategy Robb had and we saw them executed, so, I guess I was condition to believe this last one would come to fruition as well. After all, we had references to Howland Reed, and his children helping Bran, both of which are good sedgeways for the Northern forces getting through the bogs and taking Moat Cailin unaware. I certainly didn't expect to get half a book detailing the events in the Iron Islands and Dorne. Especially not the Iron Islands, as we were seeing the main events of that story in this book, through the information that our POV characters receive. This would be so great! I keep thinking this is a loose thread that will be picked up eventually. I want to know how Greywater Watch moves I think she's thrilled about marrying, period. She says her cousin is 19 and still unwed "poor thing". Fat Walda is Merret's daughter and Merret is the ninth son of Walder Frey. She's very low in the totem pole as it is, and, being fat, I don't think she was expecting a marriage at all. Marriages are the pinnacle of a woman's achievement in this society and I think Fat Walda was expecting to be a spinster or married down to some lower knight. I believe she's happy because she never dreamed she would be the Lady of a major castle. In the epilogue of this book, Merret goes into this subject. He explains that Stevron Frey was the heir (Walder's first son), but that since he died fighting for Robb and his children died as well, the heir is now Ryman Frey. No wonder he fully participated in the massacre. He's the next in line and most of the Freys believe that Walder is not long for this world. Ryman's sons Edwyn and Black Walder are next, followed by his third son Petyr Pimple, who gets several mentions in the chapters preceding the epilogue (he's the one that falls off his horse, and Catelyn mentions him here), presumably so we can remember who he is when Merret finds him hanging from a tree.

Maybe, just maybe, the way they get LF to put his guard down is by having Sansa give him what he wants: to sleep with her. It's icky and disgusting, but I can see it. Sansa seduces LF, he's with her in the Lord's chamber at WF (now Sansa's chamber), possibly sleeping after having satisfied his desires; then, Arya creeps in and slashes his throat. It might even be that we are meant to think that Arya killed them both, only for the show to reveal that Arya and Sansa were working together, and Sansa, though covered in LF's blood, is still alive. I can totally see the show trying to fake us out with the sibling rivalry until the very end. Perhaps this new leaker has been faked out too. These spoilers we get are tricky because people may see parts of something, or be part of a process, but not necessarily the whole thing; so, some of the information they get, without context, can be interpreted in different ways. It's like a puzzle, looking at a single piece, or even a few pieces, will make it very difficult to guess the full picture. ETA: Perhaps this is the third thing Martin revealed to D&D that had them shocked (Sansa willingly sleeping with LF). It would fulfill the old woman's prophecy of the fair maid slaying a giant in a castle made of snow, as well as, her words that Arya is a vehicle of death. It would also be in keeping with George's original outline of Sansa betraying her family, although the surprise reveal will be that she doesn't really.

All the news articles I'm reading say that it was only the public vote deciding.

I remember that upon first read, I kept feeling a sense of foreboding while reading these last two chapters. I was suspicious of everything, but I never imagined the depth and breadth of Walder Frey's vengeance. I was as unprepared for it as the Northerners were.

@ElectricBoogaloo: Pretty cool video, makes one appreciate even more some of the great makeups and applications one sees on Face-Off. They really have a very limited time

Well, no, that would be horrible. I don't think anyone wants to chain him to a desk until he finishes, whether he likes it or not. That said, if he really doesn't feel the drive to finish, he could hire a shadow writer, like many authors do, and give closure to the fans that made him popular in the first place. From the information that is out there, he doesn't want to do that either. So, here we are.

London house prices are definitely high, but she could find a good house on that salary, as long as it is outside Central London (zone 1). The cost of borrowing here is very low; as long as she can make her mortgage payments, she should be fine.

RE: Jon and Sansa's choice of death delivery method for Ramsay. I don't think it matters when Jon knew what Sansa had planned. In Jon's head, once he determines that it is up to Sansa to make a decision as to the matter of death, he has no business interfering. Even if he disagreed with the delivery method. So, if he knew beforehand that Ramsay was moved to the kennels and he suspected that Sansa was planning to feed him to the dogs (or actually knew for sure that she would), and he found that punishment disgusting/disagreeable/repugnant/[enter your favourite pejorative adjective here] he wouldn't move a finger. He has Ned's sense of honor, after all. He said Ramsay's fate was in her hands; so, he would never go back on that decision. If he knew after the fact, and he disapproved, he would never say anything about it because, as stated above, he wouldn't take his words back. IMO, Jon probably didn't like the choice Sansa made. He'd probably find the method "dishonorable", as would Ned. But he'd never say it because he agreed, before Ramsay's death, that it was Sansa's decision.

I fanwank that Benjen knew and that he was supposed to stop Jon from taking his vows.

Jon is my favourite, so I love all his chapters, and it's chapters like this that make me wish the show could have done a better job at portraying Jon's internal struggles.

Maybe we need look no further... :D

Jon and Dany doing the deed at the same time the Wall falls is not necessarily cause and effect. I think it's also possible that the Wall falls for another reason and we just get to see one scene after the other.

After Ned talked to Arya, she actually forgave her sister and tried to have a better relationship with Sansa. And she thinks fondly of Sansa way after she's gone from Westeros. She doesn't dwell on the fact that Sansa sided with Joffrey, and she often thinks about reuniting with her family and seeing Sansa again. Sansa also thinks kindly of her sister and doesn't dwell on the blood orange or other Arya transgressions, even more so as time goes by. Neither sister reflects a lot about how they hurt the other one. I think Arya fans are more offended at Sansa's actions that were detrimental to Arya than the character herself is at this point. That said, I do think Arya is a lot more self-aware than Sansa by miles and miles, and a lot more perceptive when it comes to other people and their actions. Honestly? I prefer Arya to Sansa, and I like her story in the books a lot better than Sansa's, but I don't think that the rivalry is as deep as some people think it is. I agree. I didn't mean to imply that they would fall into an embrace and shed tears of joy when they saw each other :D . Your description sounds about right.

Sansa is not my favourite character by far and I do get frustrated with her a lot in the books, but, to be fair, book Sansa does think fondly of Arya from time to time. She even imagined naming one of future children with Willas after her sister. I think fandom has made a lot about this supposed rivalry, and GRRM certainly fans the flames, but, in the books, it seems to me that they are heading toward a reunion where they will actually be happy to see each other again, not be at each other's throats.

Here's why Specter committed suicide: he wanted to win. He has been playing a game with Stella and his aim was to walk away scot free. When he told her about hearing a voice saying "we can't lose him", he wanted to play her. He thought that she was as involved in the game as he was. But her response influenced his later actions. She told him that she wanted him to live so that he would pay for his crimes and that a quick death was not punishment enough. Once Spector saw that they had him on a crime that happened before the alleged memory loss, he realised that he lost the game for freedom. And even if he stayed in the care facility by wining the case with an insanity defense, Stella would still win, because what she wanted was for him to lose his freedom. A regular prison or a medical facility makes no difference. He is still locked up. So, the only way Spector could win his game with Stella was denying her what she wanted: a long, drawn out punishment for him. Paul was so intent on beating her, that he was willing to lose his life, just to win the game. And the reason Stella does not appear to get any joy/satisfaction from the news of Spector's demise, is that she realises this. He beat her up because he knew then that the only way for him to win, was to off himself.

Wasn't Vee a nurse? I was surprised she was so clueless about vaccination.

Oh! I saw that. I guess I didn't make the connection to Rhaegal then. Thanks!

There's a photoshoot??? Where? Where??? (You spend a few days off of this thread....)