WearyTraveler

I should have quoted the posts I was replying to, so my intent would be clearer. I know all of what you're saying. The reason I talked about Coldhands was because someone made this comment: and I wanted to point out that the fact that show Benjen played a role similar to book Coldhands is not actually a book spoiler because Martin shot that theory down even before the book where Coldhands first appears was published.

Is that the age the actors are now or the age they were when they started?

People gossip, and half the time the nobles don't know the half of it, which is why Varys has little birds and disguises himself and LF has brothels and other assorted spies. Knowledge is power, after all. When the nobles find out that the gossip is against them, then they manipulate the circumstances to change all that (see a play called "The Booldy Hand", currently showing around Braavos). LF could have just gone to the inn and heard te gossip. Or he could have walked around and casually talked to the servants of the Lords competing in the tournament and found out quite a lot ("oh yeah, his grace is totally smitten with that woman; he talks about her all the time", "my Lady Ellaria was very angry, she swore she would poison the she-wolf", and so on). All he would need is some unassuming clothes and some charm and cunning. All of which he can have. It takes time to call the banners, have them come to you, go to other houses and ask them to call their banners, and then march your ass down all the way to KL, fighting Targaryen loyalists along the way. During his rebellion, Robert and his army had to fight many battles, and for some of them they were separated (e.g. the Tullys had not joined them yet), he was wounded a couple of times and protected by the smallfolk, there was the battle of the bells, and the stepstones, and a bunch of others. Robert was legendary, but yes, it took a long time to conquer the throne.

I always view pain and suffering as something relative. The level of hurt largely depends on the person being hurt, his/her experiences and context. A very simple example: If I take a pin and quickly stick you with it (in and out, not very deep), you will feel the prick, you might bleed a little, and you might be angry for a bit, or you might punch me in revenge, but you wouldn't be traumatized by it. Lets pretend I have a 4 year old child who trusts me and loves me. If I were to do the same to him without warning or explanation, he will have the same physical reactions, but he might also feel betrayed, by his own mother, no less, and this simple prick could be a somewhat traumatic experience. With that in mind, while I compare and contrast the experiences of all the characters, I try to stay away from qualifying who's had it worst (or even best). It's almost impossible to measure.

To be clear, I don't want them to involve LF. I just think that the way the actor has played the scenes concerning Lyanna has been coy, and I take into account that every time there was a TOJ flashback this season, they felt the need to remind us of LF and Sansa's scene in the crypt. For TV, those things are kind of anvils falling from the sky. And it wouldn't be the first time the show cut corners (see Tyrion telling Dany that Jaimie told him about the wildfire). So, while I'm hoping that it's all misdirection and AG has been playing LF coy because LF is always supposed to look like he knows more than he's letting on, I wouldn't be surprised if LF is one of the people who knows and can confirm Jon's parentage on the show.

Not necessarily. We saw that woman in the room with Ned, Lyanna and baby Jon (the show might call her Wylla, or not; so far she's unnamed). She could have met LF later in life and told him.

I think LF would relish a Ned v. Robert War, but that wouldn't necessarily bring him closer to the throne. Not until much later, when he had climbed up the ladder enough. The thing is, I think TV LF knows, but book LF doesn't. So, for the TV we have scenes with LF and Sansa in front of Lyanna's grave, and LF acts all coy about it, a scene that has twice popped up in the "previously on.." segment. That and other, albeit less conspicuous, anvils that have been dropped throughout lead me to believe that TV LF knows but has kept his trap shut. And the show will explain it (or we will have to resort to fanwank it) as LF waiting for the right opportunity to make use of that information. That is, a set of circumstances when such a revelation would bring the maximum benefit to Littlefinger, not just amuse him.

During the TOJ scene in the finale, we saw a woman was in the room with Lyanna, Ned and baby Jon. I'm thinking the show might have her character come back in present time or have LF mention her. She could have been the one to tell LF all about baby Jon. He could have kept that knowledge to himself, preferring to have Cat thinking that Ned cheated on her and sitting on the information to use when it most suited him, if it ever suited him. LF took pleasure in reminding everyone that Ned had a bastard, even Ned himself. It is possible that he somehow knows.

1) Yeah, they might be toast when all is said and done. 2) True, I remember thinking that it was nice that she wasn't afraid all the time. 3) Soooooooooooooooooooooooo much!!!! 4) That was very sweet. I also liked that there was a girl named Arya, sometimes. In Arya chapters we also see her thinking of Sansa with none of the animosity that existed between them before Ned died. This is why I never bought into the theories that Sansa and Arya are heading for some kind of confrontation where Arya will kills her. 5) I think that was the answer they gave Sansa, not their real plan. I think that ever since Olenna found out that Joffrey was a monster, she decided he had to die and that she had been looking into how to accomplish that. It had to be after the wedding, though, so Marge could still be Queen. _______________________ This chapter reminded me of one of the reasons I got frustrated with the character at times. On the one hand she thinks that Margaery's cousins are children because they don't know as much as she does. Her thoughts in that passage reflect her learning, her becoming wiser from all she has experienced. She seems to be more mature and getting smarter. On the other hand, the chapter ends with her frivolous thoughts about how she can't wait to try on a new dress that Cersei (CERSEI!!!!) is giving her. GAAAAAAAAHHHH!!! Haven't you learned that nothing good ever comes from Cersei, Sansa? I mean, I can see her getting fond of he Tyrells and trusting them because they have given her no reason whatsoever to think they have any intention to cause her harm. She told them what a psycho Joffrey is and they have kept her secret. But Cersei?! The woman who ordered Lady killed? The woman who abandoned her and everyone else when she thought the city was lost? Why does Sansa trusts her again and again? It's baffling!

I may be remembering wrong, but I think I read an interview with GRRM a while back where he mentioned he might have to split book 7 in 2. What I do remember clearly is that GRRM did shoot down the theory that Benjen was Coldhands. A page with notes from his editor and Martin's responses to the notes was made public. In one of the notes the editor asks if Coldhands is Benjen and Martin answers with a dry NO! D&D might have come up with the sept burning by themselves, but I wouldn't rule it out of the books. We know that there are caches of wildfire still stashed all over the city because the only people who knew the exact location were Aerys and his last Hand (a pyromancer). We also know that Cersei burned the Tower of the Hand using Wildfire and she was quite pleased with herself there, drinking in the flames with gusto. It's not hard to see how she could end up burning down KL in the books. Maybe Martin didn't specifically tell D&D about it, but the hints are there for the readers to put two and two together.

Personally, I think mass murder is a sign that someone is not all there. In our world we make the distinction between insane and legally insane; if I were judging Cersei's actions by our standards, I'd say she's a sociopath, but one legally sane to stand trial. 1) The knowledge as to the power of the Wall, and even its purpose has been lost. Up until the first wights attacked Mormont, everyone in the Night's Watch thought that the Wall was there to protect the realm from Wildlings, when, in truth, it was erected with magic and physical might, to keep the WW at bay. I don't think the men of the NW, much less the rest of the realm, even know that the Wall was built with magic spells to prevent the Walkers from coming through. Actually, since Mormont was attacked south of the Wall (most likely because it was the men of the NW themselves who carried the bodies through - remember Sam had to go down to open the weirwood gate for Bran), they have no reason to think that the Walkers can't also come through. 2) Even if someone remembered, or found out about it (let's say Sam discovers some old book in that big ass library in the Citadel that explains it), the Wall has never been tested. It was built after the Walkers were defeated by Azor Ahai the first time, so, no one knows if the magic is enough to hold them back. And no one knows how many Walkers are coming or if they have gotten stronger with the centuries, or if the same magic that returned to the world and allowed Dany to hatch her dragons (or the magic the dragons brought when they hatched, if you believe that theory) has made the Walkers strong enough to bring the Wall down. 3) The Wall is not infallible, and the Wildlings know it. On their march toward the Wall, they were desperately looking for the horn of Joramun, which is said to have the ability to bring the Wall down. Most Wildlings think it's some grand horn hidden somewhere, some readers believe it could be the little horn Jon found with the dragonglass weapons, which he gave to Sam who is still carrying it around. Whatever the case, the point still remains that there's magic that is believed to be strong enough to bring the Wall down, and there's a risk the Walkers could find and harness such magic. This.

The King in the North!!!!!!

Tough call. Many have said hat Ghost would have died in the battle, but I'm not so sure. After all, Grey Wind fought alongside Robb in several battles and he was fine. That said, the way D&D seem to hate the direwolves, I'm kind of happy Ghost wasn't there. Now, every time I see him on the show I'll be wondering if he's going to bite it next :-S

Ok, I have to ask as I've seen this reference before, where is it coming from? Is there anything in the text that suggests this or is it some crazy theory that people make fun of?

I believe they thought Robert could come back from his hunt any minute now

LOL! No, it's a modern take on Faustus. It had jokes, a dance number, magic tricks, and Kit even smiled a few times! There is some symbolism and metaphors I'm sure we are meant to grasp as an audience from the choices in costume and set. It was entertaining and Kit was very good in the role, and very gracious with fans afterward, which must not be very easy as this was his second performance of the day and the material and stage direction is intense. I imagine he must have been bone tired by the time he finally came out of the theatre.

The music was actually quite good, a mix of pop, classical and rock. At the beginning of the second act, the actress playing Mephistopeles did a short cover of Meatloaf's Bat out of Hell, and she was excellent.

There was a full frontal male (not Kit) and a full frontal female. Most actors spent the entire time on stage in their underwear. Kit, most of the second act, at the end of which we got to see his partial behind, so, I'd say it was about equal.

It was vital to plot development, but had it been gratuitous, I wouldn't have complained! I think we should petition D&D to make battles more realistic and have all that armor fall to pieces during the fights ;). The Battle of the Bastards would have been greatly improved, I'm thinking! I have video evidence of my presence there, BTW!

So, to lighten up the mood in here, guess what? I went to see Kit Harington in Dr. Faustus at the Duke of York Theatre. I saw Jon Snow's ass and you didn't! :-P

Told ya!

Gosh! I love the media and how they'll talk out of their assess if it will get them clicks. I'm disappointed Leave won, but that doesn't mean anything in the immediate future of the already existing deals. It will take at least two years for the UK to actually leave the EU, draft new laws, pass them, put them into effect, make new trade treaties, and so much more. GOT only has two seasons left, and it will probably not take two years to film it, even though HBO will take two years to air it, because there are only 13 episodes left. So, no, the results of Brexit will not affect GOT.

LOL! Sure, if you're ever in London, let me know. We can catch a play or have a coffee.

Maybe not. They raped Lollys "half a hundred times", as Martin is so fond of reminding us every time the character or her circumstances are mentioned, but they didn't kill her. ---------------------------- Regarding Sansa, I usually don't like to comment on the character because she's one of those characters that seem to inspire extreme emotions on the love-hate spectrum, so, anything anyone says is taken way too much to heart by either side and the discussion becomes emotional, instead of rational. But, FWIW, below are my two cents, which I will precede by stating a few clarifying statements first: I'm not a book purist, I understand that TV is a different medium and that sacrifices have to be made in order to accommodate the restrictions and constraints of the venue. I might be disappointed that the writers didn't include a character or story I liked from the books, but I don't begrudge them that. Sometimes, it's necessary. What I definitely don't like and will criticize is when the writers change the essence of a character or story (see Dorne). Then, I'll probably have something to say about it. In the interest of making a full disclosure: I neither hate nor love book Sansa. She's a Stark who has gone through some horrible ordeals (I'm talking book only here) and has learned some things. As a Stark, I'm rooting for her to succeed, eventually. As a victim of Cersei, Joffrey, et.al. I want her to get justice, but to be completely honest her progression in the books frustrates me because she is sooooo sloooooow on the take (more on that later). In the same vein, I neither hate nor love show Sansa. But it seems to me that the writers are not always very successful with this character and that they will, in the interest of plot, make her do things that are out of character with show Sansa's own story so far, and (to me, a bigger crime) that are contrary to what book Sansa would do. Just so they can get "a big moment", "a shocking reveal", "a gut wrenching reaction", "a 'hell, yeah' moment", etc. And when the show does this, it's just impossible to have a good conversation about the character, her motivations and her future. I am a woman over 40 who has worked in the mostly male dominated corporate world in Latin America, the US and Europe. I have even had some projects working with local and national governments where politicking, backstabbing and plotting was the order of the day. I've done all right, some might say I've been successful, but I've never had to use my feminine guiles, or my fists, or behave like a man to do so. I don't consider myself a "girly girl", but I'm not a tomboy either. I hate pink and frilly clothing, my wardrobe is mostly neutral and solid, no patterns, no bold colors (except for a few pieces in red, which I quite like) because I am, above all, practical. Mixing and matching is easier and faster if everything is neutral and I do love the extra time I get to sleep. But I do have quite a lot of make up, and have way more shoes than I need. Growing up, I liked dolls, but I also liked cars and trains, and climbing and riding a bike. I love me some tools, and have actually done a few remodelling projects of my own in my house, but I also give myself a manicure and spend a couple of hours unable to use my hands while the polish dries. Ok, with that laid out clearly, here's my take on Sansa's actions this episode: I don't have a problem with Sansa killing Ramsey, I don't have a problem with Sansa using Ramsey's own dogs to do it, and I don't have a problem with Sansa seeing it happen. I do have a problem with her smirk/half smile after the fact for several reasons. First and foremost, it's against the essence of book Sansa who is shown to be compassionate even to her "enemies" (e.g. helping Lancel during Blackwater). Second, I have a problem with anybody enjoying killing, that's just wrong no matter what the motivation is and, again, it's against what I think is the core of book Sansa; she wants justice, she might even be turning into a person that is capable of dispensing justice, but I don't think book Sansa would enjoy killing. Ned didn't enjoy killing, he taught his children that the man who passes the sentence must carry it out precisely because he didn't consider taking a life, any life, a light thing. It should weight heavily on someone's shoulders to take a life. Jon hasn't enjoyed any of his kills in the books (or the show, for that matter), not even when he killed his worst enemies. Robb executed Karstark and didn't enjoy it for a single second; the way Catelyn describes him during and after the act is anything but happy. They see these killings as a duty, not something to enjoy. Book Arya feels guilty after her kills, when she's getting closer to Riverrun, she even wonders if her mother and Robb would want her back, after what she did. She seems to feel the release of anger and even rage when she kills (by herself or using Jaqen as proxy), but there's no true happiness or smiles about it, and she does reflect on what it means and what she's becoming. That said, book and show Arya are seriously damaged and becoming a bit frightening. I cheer that she's going back home on the show, but I do not think it's healthy that she's becoming such a cold killer. That said, she still doesn't smile or show any sign of happiness after she kills. I think book Arya hasn't smiled since she left KL, and show Arya only just recently smiled for the first time in ages after watching the play. Comparisons of Sansa to her siblings are inevitable because they grew up together, under the same roof, with the same teachers and routines, and with the same parents. The thing that frustrates me about book Sansa, as I mentioned, is how slow she is on catching on. For me, it's actually puzzling that book Sansa grew up in the same house as Jon, Robb, Brandon, Arya and even Rickon. In the books, Arya and Jon take one look at Joffrey and have him pegged down immediately for the little shit that he is. Robb is a brilliant military strategist, even though he's only 15 and has never even squired for someone in a tourney. Bran is an adventurous climber who bravely faces the arduous journey north even though he's a cripple, and Rickon is passionate, stubborn (like Arya) and rebellious. Sansa, just doesn't seem to be cut from the same cloth. I think the thing that I really disliked about her character at the beginning wasn't so much that she wanted the pretty life of the songs, the court, the ladies, the knights, the princesses and princes, but that when faced with evidence of people being untrustworthy and downright evil (Joffrey's behaviour with Arya and Micah, Cersei ordering Lady killed), she was so wrapped up in her fantasy world that she refused to see. I understand her decision to say she "didn't remember" the events of the river because she was betrothed to Joffrey, but her thought process doesn't reflect that, or it mostly doesn't reflect that. She's still thinking that "her prince" will be noble and she makes excuses for him in her head, up to the moment before he orders Ned's execution she keeps doing that. Cersei had her wolf killed, and she still went running to her when she found out Ned was planning to send her away from King's landing. Why? Why would she trust Cersei after what she did? Why would she trust Cersei over her father? Later, she finally opens her eyes, but she's still not suspicious enough. Her father gets murdered in front of her eyes, Joffrey beats her, Cersei imprisons her, Jeyne gets taken away, and she still falls for Olenna's plot to marry her to her grandson. She needs LF to tell her that people want her claim to Winterfell. In the Vale, she can't see how insane her aunt is, even though the evidence is right there in front of her eyes, until Lysa tries to kill her. Later she starts learning from LF and even guesses as to why he makes some of the choices he makes with the Lords of the Vale, but she still trusts him, a man that kissed her while he was married and is plotting and backstabbing people all the time. And she knows he's doing this, he tells her, he instructs her, and she still thinks he would never move against her or deliberately use her to achieve his own aims. Honey, if he's got no morals or qualms about manipulating everyone around him, what makes you think he wouldn't do the same thing to you? I'm rooting for her to wake up completely, I'm rooting for her to smarten up, I'm actually rooting for her to "slay the Titan" who I presume is LF, but I wish she would hurry up and see the world of Westeros for what it is already. Now, on to the Vale army and Sansa's actions this episode. I think it goes against her character not to tell Jon. I think book Sansa, once she realises who LF truly is, would not trust him anymore, just as show Sansa may not trust that he will actually come to their aid in the battle for Winterfell. But I also think book Sansa would not hold that information secret, if it can help get her home back. Neither would show Sansa because all she wants is to have her home back. I can believe that she wasn't sure about Rickon's fate when she was trying to convince Jon to help her, and that she later realised, when Ramsay threw Shaggy Dog's head at them, that Rickon was as good as dead. But I can't buy that she wouldn't tell Jon that there was a possibility of help and that she was going to check it out. It's moot to try to predict the outcome had she done so because she didn't. But I firmly believe that show Sansa, who has suffered so much and hugged Jon with heart and soul at Castle Black, who wants to get her home back, and who hates Ramsey with the force of a thousand suns wouldn't have done everything in her power to give Jon, the guy who was actually going to fight this battle, put his life on the line for her, and attempt to get her the justice she seeks, all the information he could possibly need to make that happen. The simplest explanation is that the writers wanted the surprise save from the Knights of the Vale, and so, they had Sansa acting illogically. There's no need to make excuses for the character or to try to guess her motivations, IMO. She should have told him, according to her character's progression on the show, it would make sense that she would tell him, but we couldn't have that because it would ruin the surprise save (and the gorgeous aerial shot of the Knights of the Vale smashing into Ramsey's forces), so, here we are :-/