statsgirl

If so many of us watched New Amsterdam, why was it cancelled? That cancellation is the main reason I never give my heart to a TV show any more. Um, back to Forever... it does feel like the bastard child of NA (but without the smarts or the explanation) and Elementary but I like the Hirsh and Gruffudd, and the guy who used to be one of the squints on Bones. And if the detective is going to be his love interest, I like her a lot more than the one on NA who I kept wishing would turn out to be evil so we could get rid of her. So did I. It was pretty good in some respects. And then IG's character turned into Wilson on House M.D. (same producers)

From the spoiler thread I think they knew that Laurel was disliked in s1 but s2 when Sara came on and Laurel had the (non-)addiction arc it got worse, and I don't think AK and MG either anticipated it or know why even now. They may have thought that with a year of Sara, Laurel will be ready to assume the BC mantel in s3, or at least prepare for it. I wish I knew what they were thinking. Was the addiction arc their idea of preparing Laurel to be the BC, or just giving her something to do since she was out of the A plot so often?

No, you're remembering right, Oliver really was that much of a dick. Even more, because Felicity had just said that she didn't want to share a cab with Isabel but Oliver made her do it anyway. I'd really like to see Felicity call Oliver out on these on-going doucheries. She does on the really big ones but a lot of times he treats her like his employee and not a partner. It's also why it's hard to get upset over how he awful he was to Laurel by taking Sara on the boat when he still does these things to Felicity who has never been anything but supportive of him.

I thought Sin came with Thea and Roy, and Thea was there because she knew Sara from before as Laurel's sister and because it was at her house. Thanks for the reality check on the episodes. I hadn't notice but now that you mention it, yeah, that's just all kinds of wrong. Why take Diggle and Carly out for dinner but not Felicity? They've taken her to Big Belly Burger so she knows Carly. And asking Felicity to make the reservations when she's told him how much she hates to be his EA .... wow, Oliver could be a jerk.

Maybe they would be willing to give Laurel a different name, in the 'some characters are moving closer to their comic book counterparts and some farther away' theme. If they find a strong actress to take the Oracle role, I could see CL, JdG and someone else in a BoP spin-off. I guess a lot depends on how The Flash does, and if there is interest in a Suicide Squad spin-off. I don't think they saw it coming, either the dislike of Laurel or how much people loved CL as Sara.

I wonder what positioin Geoff Johns is taking on Sara vs Laurel. He is their DC Comics connection as well as a writer for the show and I've heard that he likes Sara.

It's season 3 and I think they do need to branch out for everything being about Oliver because it's going to get boring otherwise. So Thea gets an arc with Malcolm, Diggle gets the Suicide Squad and we get backstory (finally) on Felicity. But giving us more background on Sara and making her a more sympathetic character just doesn't make sense unless they're going to keep her around and in the Black Canary role. The backlash if they have Laurel take on the jacket is going to be even worse.

Thanks for the report, HighHopes. They both sound like nice guys.

SA said that Oliver was sleeping at the foundry when the season opens.

I think part of the problem with Laurel is that she rarely admits to her own role in what goes wrong and instead blames it on other people (Oliver, her father, Sara, etc.), unlike Moira who took responsibility for Robert's death even though all she did was encourage him to stop Malcolm Merlyn. She blamed her father for Sara's death and both her parents for abandoning her by their divorce and she was often mean to them to take revenge, as if she was the only one who suffered. Laurel did eventually acknowledge that she had a role in Tommy's death after blaming the Hood for months for not saving him. Oliver has apologized so many times for taking Sara on the boat, and in The Undertaking, he told Laurel that they should have talked to each other five years earlier. I'd really like to see a scene between Oliver and Laurel where they both admit to mistakes, where Laurel acknowledges that she and Oliver never really knew each other in the past, that they were in love with fantasy images of each other, and that she pushed Oliver too hard and ignored all the signs that he was cheating on her, including Sara's outright statement. (Laurel responded "Why can't you be happy for me?". No wonder it pushed Sara onto the boat with Oliver.) That would go a ways to redeeming Laurel for me. I only know of a few people in real life, a lucky few, who haven't been cheated on at one time or another. You suck it up, decide to learn from it, and go on. On the show, Moira got cheated on regularly. Thea thinks Roy cheated on her too. Oliver apologized to Laurel, a number of times. Many of us don't get even that. So while I acknowledge that to have your boyfriend cheat on you with your sister is an awful thing to have happen to you at the time, I can't with Laurel still being so angry about it especially given that she got on with her own life just fine. What it does is contribute to the general impression of immaturity I have about Laurel.

According to James Fallon, it is something you are born with, but raised in the right circumstances, it doesn't express itself. I like Sherlock, in the BBC series, describing himself as "a high functioning sociopath". Nothing at all like Oliver Queen.

I really get the feeling that they are going to ignore the anti-Laurel feeling and write her as becoming the Black Canary. Just because they want to and they can. The Queen mansion was sold (I'd expect it to get $4 - 10 million depending on whether land prices in Starling City are like those in Vancouver) presumably because it was part of underpinning the stock they had to acquire to keep QC, along with any other land, major jewelry and the paintings, and Oliver is living in the foundry. But if you're right and he still has money from all that, even more reason to help Felicity out. Starting a consulting company doesn't take much money (I had a joint one for years). Basically it means giving her enough money to live on until she can get some contracts as she works out of her home, and once clients start coming in because she is good, she can roll along, hiring people to work under her and moving into office space as her company grows. Because really, the only reason she's no longer working in the IT department at QC at her old salary is Oliver. They better play the part-time job for laughs because otherwise Oliver is going to look like a major douche again.

From the clip.... I think it's really sweet that Colin Donnell was like their big brother on set and is still texting them. That explains the photo of them with Colin when he shot his scene this season. Poor Colton, getting poked while he's supposed to be unconscious so he'd break the scene. Earlier the question came up of whether SA was getting a swelled head; they say no. The background picture just reminds me of how much I liked the s2 poster more than the new one.

Interestingly, it was also Sara's first instinct, for example when Roy was mirakuru-raging. Doesn't Oliver even say that he used to be like Sara when he first got back from the island? So no, there was nothing suggesting an addiction to killing. (Now Slade, on the other hand... ). More like both Oliver and Sara were desensitized to killing as an efficient way to solve a problem. (Although with Sara there was that whole 'I don't want to kill any more' in 2a but maybe that only applied to people she was hired to kill.)

It's possible that they used the Queen assets to prop up their QC shares in s2. That's why the lawyer wanted Thea to sign over the trust to another trust, to keep the Queen assets secure, and Thea didn't. Given Oliver's personal fortune, I would hope he would have been paying Felicity a lot more than $40,000, especially given the hours she puts into her night job. But if Oliver is not suffering money problems, why doesn't he help Felicity out so she can start up her own IT consulting firm? (I know, plot contrivance) I think that interview was done during SDCC because I've heard before. I don't see how I'm going to be happy with Laurel's trajectory unless they send her to Nanda Parbat for the season.

I hated how she treated her mother at the end of Salvation, having the woman in the photo show up just like that instead of telling Dinah that she was wrong about Sara being in the photo. Huge levels of cruelty and wanting to stick it to her mother. There was a link earlier to the difference between personality and character. I didn't get it though. I think state/trait is a better differentiator. A trait is what is a part of you (like Felicity's fear of heights), a state is how you are now (jumping out of the plane to bring Oliver back). For Laurel, I think expecting everyone to agree with her and getting angry at them (and vengeful) is a trait. She wanted Tommy to reject Oliver too, she wanted to punish her mother and father for hoping Sara is alive, One minute she's saying she wants to fight for her relationship with Tommy, the next she's climbing Oliver like a tree. Was she lying to herself when she said that she wanted Tommy? In the season premier she told Oliver Tommy was the one she loved, and a few episodes later she's expecting Oliver to sleep with her. Exactly. I think making all of her first meets about her is also a trait. She makes everything all about her, including giving Sara advice on how to be in a relationship with Oliver.

I still find it wrong that Oliver isn't going to have money problems (per Greg Berlanti) but Felicity has to take a part time job to make ends meet. I wonder what Diggle did with his $1million. If he invested wisely, he should have enough to start his own security company. I hope they're playing that for a joke, and also a spoof on Chuck where Brandon Routh also showed up to mess with the love interest. One of the problems with Oliver's behaviour last season is that he never really acknowledged Felicity's skills in IT. She complained about being his EA and it was convenient for plot reasons but Oliver never told her he understood what it cost her, in terms of her capabilities, her self-esteem and her reputation, to be his EA instead of doing what she educated herself for. So I think it would be great if Ray Palmer heard that she was great at IT and went head-hunting her, not because she was Oliver's EA but because of how good she is and hired her to work at her proper capacity. And since this show is all about Oliver, it wouldn't hurt for him to realize he has been taking Felicity for granted and that she sacrificed to be on his Team last year.

I loved the fan reaction when Laurel did her "everyone leaves me" moan in s2. Yes, Tommy left you. Tommy died. The idea that Laurel has any clue what true loneliness is makes me laugh. Lessons from Counselling 101: people know what's wrong and very often, if you listen to them, you'll find they know how to fix it. The problem is that they can't get there from here (maybe too sad, too hurt, unable for whatever reason). I find that in terms of change, empathy is often helpful to get the other person to a place where he/she is motivated to do the changes. If Felicity is already motivating Oliver (to listen to others before yelling, not to kill), then she's already ahead of someone who is just giving sympathy or empathy. I'm curious as to what way those are bandaid solutions, by the way. They seem pretty life-changing to me. I also see Diggle as being someone who motivates Oliver too. I really hope they have some conversations when Thea comes back.

I used to love Suits but I only occasionally watched this season because it's so repetitive and they're still obsessed with that "Mike never went to Harvard" thing. (For heaven's sakes, have him take a couple of years to get a law degree at some other school and a Master's or LLD from Harvard and problem solved. He can even do an executive degree while still working at Pearson Spector. (My uncle did an executive LLD which meant he could still work at his regular job and do the courses on weekends.) I've never seen the attraction of Rachel. For someone who is supposed to be so smart, she does too many stupid things. I also really hate how they keep dumping on Louis. The guy can never, ever catch a break and it's not entertaining any more. He'll probably end up with Donna because they'll never put her with Harvey but meantime I'm not enjoying the ride. One of the best things about Suits is how badass and ruthless Jessica is, not to mention how well dressed. Laurel should be taking notes on both spheres. He brings up some interesting points.

Another part that's wrong with Laurel is that everyone says what a wonderful person she is. No one said that about Moira, or Thea, and even Felicity had those who don't like her (hate in Isabel's case). And no one is needed to hate Sara, she does that all by herself beating herself up for what she's done. Cartoon-style villains may be all black (although even Malcolm had his justification and Slade had mirakuru) but no realistic character is all white, or even white with a brief addiction problem. But no one on the show calls Laurel out when she's wrong until 2x14, and then Sara tells her how great she is. A few episodes later Quentin says that she's such a good spy she could have been one if she hadn't wanted to be a lawyer. No one has ever said that Felicity is so good undercover she could be a spy even though she's done a number of undercover missions by now, or to Diggle what an amazing back-up person he is. Moira gets to be fiercely protective of her family and have questionable morality because people do call her out on the bad things she's done. They need to call Laurel out too..

Yes. Anyone who struggles with mental illness, especially ones like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, that's truly hard. Just my opinion, but if someone thinks that Laurel is broken, the argument is already lost because you're on two vastly different playing fields. By the way, was it Oliver's and Sara's suffering that broke Laurel then? Because she was safe at home while they were fighting for survival. One of the reasons I don't like Laurel is because I'm expected to feel sorry for her when of all the younger characters on the show, she had it the best. My bad because he's a male but I'd argue that Tommy, losing his mother at age 8 and having Malcolm Merlyn as a father who first abandoned him and then cut him off entirely because he didn't like what he was doing, is more broken than Laurel. Then there was Roy, with a father who left and a druggie mother. Sin's mother died of cancer and her in a plane crash when she was still very young and she grew up on the streets. Or Thea, losing her father and brother when she was 12, and then having her mother shut herself off from her remaining child, then losing her beloved stepfather, and watching her mother murdered in front of her, not to mention being choked by her boyfriend. I don't think of Thea as broken, but her life has been a lot more traumatic than Laurel's.

Something I hate in a person, male or female, is narcissism and entitlement. Laurel lost me the minute she turned off the TV when all her colleagues were watching. Without a word to them, she picked up the remote and turned it off. I had decided to stop watching after the pilot episode, and then I caught a glimpse of Oliver interacting with Felicity and I was back in. Also, I don't think Laurel is broken. Oliver is broken, Sara is broken, I can even argue that Felicity is somewhat broken by having her father walk out on them and not getting along with her mother. Laurel had a stable family with two loving parents until her boyfriend took off with her sister and then she went on to go to law school, have a good career and a guy who really loved her (Tommy). I bet there are a number of people on this board who are refugees or from broken homes or who have lost parents or siblings or have serious illnesses. Laurel as broken? IMO not even close. ETA: How is Sherlock broken? I see John Watson somewhat broken from the war at the start of the series but Sherlock is more arrogant ass than broken.

It was Felicity who told him in a time of crisis that he had been asleep the whole time so that was on her. And I think she would be the one on the team closest to Roy, also being younger than the other two and with less leadership role. But Diggle is the soldier, the one who knows best how Roy is feeling and reacting. And Oliver is the leader of the Team so that part of the responsibility is on him. Both Diggle and Oliver should have broached it with Roy during the hiatus, especially because it's on tape and there's no way to hide what he did in the long term. So why do I think Laurel is going to be the one who tells Roy what happened? Because they have to squeeze Laurel in every way they can. (And if she does, way to be a team player, Laurel.)

Great idea! 1. Moira Queen. I will miss her dearly. 2. Paul Blackthorne's acting 3. Stephen Amell's body. Seriously, he's like Greek statue. 4. The relationships between Team Arrow, all four of them (Oliver/Diggle, Oliver/Felicity, Diggle/Felicity, Oliver/Diggle/Felicity). All eleven if you add Sara into the mix. 5. How much the cast cares about making it a great show. 6. Stephen Amell's media presence and how hard he works. 7. BSC! villains like Malcolm Merlyn and Slade. 8, Good enough story and character development that it's worthwhile analysing the show. 9. Diggle's snarks and facial expressions. 10. Oliver/Felicity as a relationship I can root for. 11. Roy opposing Oliver which keeps the lair from being a lovefest. 12. Sara, kickass and vulnerable. 13. Nyssa. I'd like to grow up to be that cool someday.

If it's going to be a meaty storyline, I can see them giving it to Laurel as a way to jump-start her onto the Team. Conflict! Redemption! Hopefully there will be some on-going Felicity-oriented storylines next season, like Diggle's baby. But between Malcolm and Thea, and Diggle, and Laurel and the whole new set of flashbacks, there doesn't feel like there will be much room for Felicity, as opposed to Felicity/Oliver or with the team or