statsgirl

In spite of what they were promoting (Barry and Felicity! See the chemistry! AK even said they would rival Olicity), Barry was always more about Oliver than Felicity. Pairing him with Felicity was just a way to get people to like the character so viewers would want to tune in when he has his own show.. I think if anyone would be bitter, it would be KC. The p.r. people are really playing up Felicity (Felicity Fridays) and Olicity moments from the finales, and they're talking about obstacles for O/F, not O/F as an obstacle for O/L. I haven't seen any promos on TV. If they're promoing Sara, then that's a good sigh for her return. I'm still bitter at how Diggle and Felicity disappeared for almost 10 episodes s2.

I really hope they don't. For their sakes as well as mine. There must have been a lot of calls to go back to the original Team Arrow in the second half of season 2 because by early May Kreisburg was saying that the finale would be big on Team Arrow and SA has said that the start of next season would be more 'intimate' (by which I hope he means a smaller Arrow cave). And that's at a time when Sara was there and she is well liked, unlike Laurel. I don't think Barry was ever really an Olicity obstacle, I think they just promoted it that way to get people excited about Barry and push for The Flash show. On the other hand, my fear is that they will spend so much making it about the romantic stuff that they will end up giving people a distaste for Olicity because it becomes too much of a CW soap opera. Me too. Since they didn't kill off Sara because she was so popular, I can't see them killing off Felicity even at the end of the show so Oliver can go back to Laurel. Yes, it would be the end of the series but all the EPs and producers will need to find new shows and it would be stupid to turn off the viewers like that. I'd love that so much. And she's got leather clothes now too!

I think you're right. I remember wondering how Merlyn found out Oliver was there as soon as he got there, or whether the bomb was on timer just in case someone came. It being a trap set for the vigilante makes a lot of sense, and it explains why Merlyn would be killing Adam Hunt so much later in the timeline. Oliver and Felicity are so much fun after all the Oliver/Laurel angst that permeated every scene of theirs.

This is one of my favourite episodes. It's something about how it's spread out among the characters, and how it advances the year's story. It's got Walter and Lady Macbeth Moira, evil Malcolm! Felicity solving mysteries and Oliver seems to be finally over Laurel. About the only parts I didn't like were the island scenes. I know there is brutality in the world but I don't like to watch it. Although SA did a great job of showing Oliver in pain post-torture. And we did find out that the Chinese operated the island as a prison . Why does Yao Fe pull up his hood as he goes into the fight? Everyone knows who he is. The theme is – the dangerousness of those you think you've handled. Wow, Adam Hunt has come down in the world into that low rent hotel room. And he looks pretty cheesy too. One of my favourites scenes is when Oliver kicks Shane out of Thea's bedroom. He still thinks she's 12. Or maybe he knows too much about teenage boys in girls' bedrooms. Either way, who needs Robert or Walter when you've got a brother like Oliver? Why is the police commissioner wearing his uniform to a dinner party? Low self-esteem? He doesn't seem very competent. Can he be killed off now? I didn't realize that it was Diggle who said that they need an arrow to identify the archer. Way to call Felicity into the episode, Diggle. Oliver wants to throw the Christmas party. It's all about getting back to pre-island. Is that why Oliver is wearing the dorkiest clothes this episode? Too bad it's always about the secrets, before and now. The drawing of the Arrow is in the background as Quentin goes to phone him. Felicity is looking at the names from the list when Oliver goes to her about the arrow. I wonder what she would have found if she'd had more time. "Merry Christmas, sir. How are you? Proficient with firearms." I never fail to love that line. Tommy is sweet, and way too good for Laurel. No Dinah in the photograph? Gorgeous decked halls at Queen Manor. The set decoration crew must have had fun. I want Moira's necklace. I like seeing Moira in this episode. She's really between two hard places, desperate to keep Walter and her family safe, desperate to keep Walter who she sees as her salvation. Laurel and Ontario premier Kathleen Wynne apparently show in the same stores – I saw that red dress the night of the election. Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas is a good choice for Moira/Walter and Oliver/Laurel/Tommy. Please be over Laurel, Oliver. I wonder what excuse Malcolm Merlyn gave for not showing up at the party. And why do both he and Oliver store their arrows propped up like a pointy-topped fence? I love Merlyn when he's being totally crazy and without remorse. Oliver leaves Merlyn with two arrows sticking out of his back. How do they explain those wounds from a motorcycle accident? One of the likable things about Thea is that she knows and acknowledges when she's being a bitch. Unlike, you know, a certain other person.

'Douche' is often Oliver's middle name. Still. He may have been amused by them in The Scientist and angry that his secret was revealed in Three Ghosts but Oliver didn't seem to be upset at Felicity spending time with Barry in Starling City except that he didn't want Barry in on their secret. But he was was irritated/annoyed/upset when Felicity began spending time with Barry in Central City. I don't think Oliver himself saw it as jealousy, more irritation that she wasn't there giving The Mission the attention it deserved, which is why they needed Diggle to define it as jealousy. I think SA talking about the partnership and equals is about putting Felicity in a good light -- look, she's not jealous of Oliver sleeping with Sara, she's concerned with doing her job and getting the mission accomplished. I have the feeling it's only going to get worse at the start of next season. If KC is tweeting how awesome 3x01 is going to be, I can't see anything but a mess happening for Olicity.

I actually see Lyla being pregnant and a Digglet on the way as a good thing because if Oliver's kid shows up, it gives Diggle a separate storyline with Oliver that doesn't include Felicity. Both Diggle and Felicity should be important to Oliver but in very different ways. And I too have always liked Diggle's friendship with Felicity, showing that he's always liked and respected her (especially when she stands up to Oliver) and is the one to take her into consideration when Oliver's off on one of his flights. Diggle is the grounding force on the team, Felicity is the idealist and Oliver is the one who puts his head down and gets on with the job.

Don't forget, it was the second time around for both. He slept with Sister 1 and Sister 2 in 2007 as well. HighHopes, I think it can still work out if he's talking about eps 8 and 9 when Barry Allen was introduced. I don't think the idea of jealousy was introduced until ep 10 (which was not the midseason finale as the TV Guide reporter said) when Diggle suggested that he didn't have any problems with Felicity's work until she met Barry Allen. I'd say it wasn't until she began spending so much time in Central City and wasn't at his back and call but Diggle's way is more poetic. Kreisburg at any rate thinks it's jealousy. But what does he know? It's interesting .... you can see that he wants to put the brakes on the idea of it being about romance and jealousy, and emphasize that they are partners. I appreciate that he says that they are equals because it would be too easy to have Oliver as the Big Leader and Felicity and even Diggle as subordinates. It gives Felicity more agency than just being a love interest, and makes for a better show IMO..

Don't forget she manipulated Tommy too, when she told him to ask Oliver f(he ex) r a job, and then without checking to see if he did it, she brought it up at the dinner table with Oliver and Helena. I don't think this needs to be spoiled tagged about Quentin but just in case Something quarks spoiler tagged on the Burned thread: Not sure where to put this (Burned? speculation without spoilers? here?) but I'm going to try here because it's about Laurel. The idea that Laurel will be in the new Arrow lair with them next season makes me want to running screaming for the door. But am I being unfair to her just because I don't like the character? No, I decided. The problem with Laurel being in the lair with them next season, beyond her superiority to Diggle and Felicity, her judgmentalism, and her sense of possession of Oliver, is that Laurel just isn't competent, as a lawyer or as a person. It wasn't just because they couldn't find anything else to do with her last season that she kept getting DiD'ed, it was because she would do stupid things like wear a white coat to break into a file room -- a file room she should have had access to as an ADA. If you're working on a stealth operation of superheros, she's the last person I'd want to trust with the secret much less let her on the team.

ArrowLimbo, I think the interview where SA said that Oliver wasn't jealous was post-Three Ghosts and during the winter hiatus. The jealousy came later in Blast Radius when she was spending so much time with Barry in Central City, probably exacerbated by Oliver's inability to find out anything more about the super soldier

Oliver with Sara was basically the same Oliver that he was without Sara -- uncommunicative, expecting her to go along with what he wanted, shutting down discussion of what's the best tactic to take. On the show, you know Oliver is valuing the other person when he lets his mind be changed (e.g. Diggle on going after all criminals and Moira's dangerousness, Felicity with respect to not killing). I don't know if it was lazy writing or deliberate to show us that Oliver wasn't deeply involved in the relationship. He did listen to Sara about letting her stay with him when he was worried about Slade. There is that, because given Oliver's libido pre-island and the first 1 1/2 seasons, it would have been strange having him celibate for that long. It seemed to me more as parking Oliver while they set up everything for the finale. In terms of 'what was Oliver thinking?', apparently now much. Sara was there, she was available, it was a stressful time and more comforting than macaroni and cheese. Although in terms of the shock to Laurel, I think it was worse realizing that Oliver and Sara were sleeping together than if they had just been close friends. Laurel's possessiveness makes Oliver look like St. Francis of Assisi. Probably the reaction of many people, that's why they had Diggle define it as jealousy, so we could be on the same page as the writers.

It does feel unfair that Lauren gets handed everything instead of earning it. On the other hand, it cheats the character of development and consistency.

I can understand why AK doesn't want to give up on the idea of Laurel as BC, but Berlanti and the WB suits shouldn't be so tied to it.

Yeah, I'm sure that the jealousy and miscommunication fueled angst' is coming How can a show's writier's resist? They've already done it multiple times with Oliver and Laurel. But about Barry, I don't think Oliver was jealous in The Scientist and Three Ghosts so much as he was possessive of Felicity's attention and didn't like Barry taking Felicity's attention away. It was in the next episode when she wasn't around and paying more attention to Barry than to Oliver that he started to think about it. (Or what dancingnancy said as I was typing.) From the Felicity thread: More than a bit preoccupied ... he was talking to her and instead of jumping to attention and handling it immediately, she was staring off into space. I agree about the TV trope of more perceptive at some times than others but Oliver in particular tends to put people into little boxes. He pays attention to Diggle because Diggle commanded his attention. Until the last few episodes, he treated Felicity more like a pet puppy than a partner. Laurel for the longest time was in the box of "woman I love but can't have because I'm not good for her" until her addiction arc and how she treated Sara opened his eyes (yay addiction arc). Thea was 12 years old all through s1, and it took a long time for Diggle to convince him that Moira was not on the side of the innocent.. Even Sara, who can more than take care of herself, he wanted to keep protected when Slade was in town. Did he really think that Slade had no beef with Sara, who was the one who lived while Shado died? Usually it takes something of cataclysmic proportions to move Oliver out of his minds. I think we're supposed to take that he was jealous of Felicity spending so much time with Barry because Diggle told us he was, irrespective of whether Oliver got it or not. Part of me wanted more of Oliver/Sara because we never really got to how they worked as a couple other than disagreeing about Roy and whether Oliver should go for Thea, and part of me wanted less because Sara was taking front and centre in both the present day and the flashbacks and Felicity and Diggle got lost in the background. She does good analyses of what works and what doesn't. I like her thoughts on first meets (Laurel vs Felicity) too. http://www.arghink.com/2014/01/20/writing-the-first-meet-scene-arrow/ I enjoyed reading her reviews of Arrow. It's too bad she gave up on the show during the second part of s2 (surprise, surprise).

Barry was lying because he wasn't really sent by Central City CSI, nor was he one of their field agents but wasn't he telling the truth that he came because there was a similar incident in Central City (namely his mother?) Oliver is very protective of his secrets, and the only one allowed to reveal them is Oliver himself. That also extends to his team and Barry was getting too close to Felicity, who Oliver seemed to regard as his property (e.g. forcing her to be his PA) rather than a self-determining member of his team. In Three Ghosts, it seemed to me more possessiveness rather than jealousy, and when it was pointed out to him that he had behaved badly with respect to Felicity and Barry, he invited Barry to Moira's party for Felicity. (Hey, a party he actually stayed at, but few other people did.) But by the next episode, when she was spending a lot of time sitting by Barry's bedside, it seems like some jealousy had crept in there, although he never admitted to it. Ironically, this was EBR's reaction when asked if Diggle and Oliver were going to be training Felicity more now. 'Aren't they already? My mother put me in self-defense classes when I was three.'

That's a wonderful way of putting it Ceylon5. It makes more sense than anything I've heard from someone affiliated with the show. I don't think Laurel really loved Tommy, not until he died and she realized that he loved her enough to die for her. Truly, I don't think Laurel has ever loved anyone really, not Quentin or Sara or Dinah. Mostly it's about what they can do for her, whether it's to show how superior she is (Sara), or to give her things (Oliver, Tommy, her parents), or be a justification for her anger (Quentin drinking, Dinah leaving, Oliver for not being what she wanted him to be,). I know that's harsh but that's how I see her. When she's nice to someone, it seems more like she's saying "see what a good person I am" rather than being nice for the sake of the other person, as Sara is. Thea is a club owner, and she's a kid so I can understand her wanting to play dress-up. Moira's style seems like an armor or maybe it's stage clothes to suit who she plays. I can't imagine they would be comfortable but they are consistent with billionaire matriarch. Most of Felicity's clothes make sense, some, like the boob dress seem like Laurel's clothes seem more model or reality star than junior lawyer, and that just adds to the lack of belief that she is a crusading lawyer out to do good. I was picking up my kid from school one day during exam time and one of the high schoolers came out, upset at how little she could answer the exam questions and I thought "honey, if you spent half as much time studying as you do on your clothes and make-up, you wouldn't have that problem." That's how I feel about Laurel. I'm frequently pulled out of the show by KC's eyelashes. Who told her Cupie Doll was a good look? This makes a lot more sense than taking over the jacket. Sara would know better than anyone else how dangerous it is to be a defenseless woman. That makes sense to me and makes up for the mistake of not sending her down the Vigilante path when Tommy died and she realized it was her fault. Good scenario, Swebby.

I'm glad they gave us what episodes each writer wrote. For example, Wendy Merickle...Time of Death, Seeing Red.. er, sorry Wendy.

Diggle will notice. Oliver? Pfft! that boy doesn't notice anything unless it's written in flashing neon lights.Worse if he's made up his mind about you, like Felicity works on computers not works out, Laurel is helpless, and Thea must be protected from the truth. But it would be interesting to see Diggle or Lyla try to help Felicity through the kind of thing that tears pieces off you, as Diggle told Oliver when he signed on.

I get the feeling that the comics excuse is used primarily by people who haven't read the comics but just heard of them (KC), or who have only read a restricted range (i.e.AK's Green Arrow/Black Canary) version. While the Black Canary was at various time Dinah Drake or Dinah Lance, am I right that it was only during AK's time of writing that she was called Dinah Laurel Lance? So, comics! Maybe because after the big arrow shooting scene, Laurel was barely there in the last episodes. It was back to Team Arrow with Roy and Sara's LoA. The less Laurel is on, the more I like her. Over on the Felicity thread, there's a discussion of whether Felicity should have put the mask on Oliver, as symbolic of moving into his new role. It could be that the EPs (not the non-comic book viewers) thought that giving Laurel the jacket was symbolic in the same way. I was wondering... would Laurel's journey in s2 been enough of a crucible if KC were better fitted to the role? It's not nearly the journey that Oliver and Sara had, of course But losing Sara and having her parents divorce, then Tommy dying, her guilt and addiction, and losing her job and being kidnapped a number of times, is that enough of a journey to turn her into the Black Canary (even though it would have made more sense doing it after Tommy's death)? Thea lost her brother and father, then her boyfriend tried to kill her, then she found out that Malcolm Merlyn was her father, and then her mother was murdered in front of her and presumably that's enough to start her down the path. For Roy, his mother was a drug addict, he lost friends in the earthquake and then he was mirakurued. Helena's father killing her boyfriend was enough for her. I think it would have been better if they had started Laurel on the vigilante path after Tommy's death (maybe they didn't think KC was ready?), but now that all those things have happened to her, is that enough to set Laurel on the Black Canary path?

Really, that show needs to be pitched to Greg Berlanti. I can see it on NBC.

Their inability to let Laurel go dark, which a) makes sense given what we've seen of her so far and b) is KC's acting strength, is something I really hope they get over. With some therapy maybe? Paging Harley Quinn.

One thing I didn't understand .... Sara deliberately took Quentin back to the clock tower for the fight to be on grounds that she had chosen. But did she also tell Oliver? It seems to me that she didn't and he asked Felicity to find out where Sara is, but if that's the case, how could she know that she and her father alone would be enough to stop the assassins?

That is a truly good idea. But it has to be on re-watch so we don't miss anything.

The scene in ToD was the impetus for me to ask the question but if there was a scene in a later episode that was cut, it would explain her looking confused at the question. If it was cut, another reason to rail against the bad plotting of the season where Felicity and Diggle got pushed aside.

I remember lots of arguments that Felicity either took Sara's jacket or got one just like her so she could be like Sara. I think that was intentional, with Sara commenting on Felicity wearing a leather jacket, and it really bugged me because Felicity is just fine as her own person. I hated that she felt that she had to be like Sara (in leather, getting shot) before she felt validated. You're right, it was 'little sister-zoned'. Not even Diggle has done it to that extent. No wonder Felicity was so desperate to prove herself. Not only was Oliver all huffy about Felicity training, when he dragged her back to her computer and she said that it was taking so long because the Clockmaker was very good at covering his tracks, Oliver said "Lucky for us, you're very good at uncovering tracks", basically telling her to stop trying to train and expand her abilities and just do the computer stuff. Little sister-zoned and put in a box. Yep, it's Oliver's fault. Not all of it, but in that episode he really contributed to making Felicity feel inadequate. Oliver often has trouble looking at the big picture; that's why he needs Diggle and Felicity. In the WB interview, EBR said that of course Diggle and Oliver would have been training Felicity, which leaves me wondering if there's an AU show I'm not seeing.. (She also said that the molars scene was her favorite from this season, which makes me sad.)

Unfortunately, in this case it's one of the head writers, Marc Guggenheim, who is pulling out the chestnut. I think every show needs a writer who can write romantic relationships, just as there needs to be ones who can do platonic relationships and action sequences, and they should be given the responsibility of writing the romance. Sadly, this almost never happens. I wish I had more faith that either MG or AK could write a relationship and make it work. The best ones on the show were Tommy/Laurel, Roy/Thea and Moira/Walter and all three of those broke up. Let's be fair to Laurel though, Oliver was handsome and fun,(although maybe too selfish to be good in bed). So, bonus.