Wayward Son

The show does have a precedence for doing this though! They brought back season 1 characters Tommy and Sarah back in season 8 just to kill them off.

++ Jus in Bello ++ The Kid Are Alright -- Bad Day at Blackrock 57- Jus in Bello 53 - No Rest for the Wicked 29 - Mystery Spot 27- A Very Supernatural Christmas 13 - Bedtime Stories 13 - Ghostfacers 13- Long Distance Call 11 - Time is on My Side 11 - The Kids Are Alright 09 - Bad Day at Black Rock 09 - The Magnificent Seven 07 - Dream a Little Dream of Me 01 - Fresh Blood Dragged to Hell by Hellhounds... 16. Malleus Maleficarum 15. Red Sky at Morning 14. Sin City

But the point I was making is that the show chose to create a parallel between Dean and Cas and a very specific situation. It wasn't a generalised thing. Isham specifically compared his love, which was sexual, to Cas' feelings for Dean. If they didn't want viewers to think of a connection between the two pairs then why do that? OR if they really wanted there to be a parallel then why not present it differently? Instead of making it a one sided sexual thing gone sour, why couldn't Isham and Lily have been friends / platonic and that bond somehow went sour? I'm actually not even a Destiel shipper, as I don't perceive Dean as having any feelings for Castiel. I personally could see Cas as having feelings for Dean, but one sided does not make a ship LOL. However, IMO if they're going to include such connections on the show then it's pretty stupid of people associated with the show to act mystified by the idea that some fans have interpreted it as holding meaning. I'm not going to focus on Dean. I'll leave that to more Dean centric viewers, if any feel inclined. But I personally think an exploration of Castiel's sexuality wouldn't be at the expense of his character. I'm talking in general terms rather than about Destiel specifically. 1) IMO angels actually should be open sexually. They are "multi-dimensional waves of celestial intent". They should either have the potential to be attracted to all humans equally, or none at all! They wouldn't be driven by the same basic biological impulses as humans as they generally lack a physical body that is truly theirs. Castiel would be a current exception, as we know Jimmy soul is in heaven and the body he inhabits was a supernatural construction created by Guck. 2) I have seen the argument that angels are driven by the sexual tendencies of their vessel. However, angels can be gender fluid. In fact Castiel himself was in a female vessel long before he came to use Jimmys form. This opens questions like; was he formerly into men but now he is into women? Does his connection to vessels leave a print on his personality? Or if he were to return in the form of a woman would he suddenly shift back to liking men? 3) In comparison to characters like Sam and Dean, Castiel has really had little opportunity to explore his sexuality. He has had a few fleeting moments over a period of eight years. Off the top of my head he has physically slept with Amy who was possessed by the reaper, there was the strange situation with Daphne while he was without his memories, he was flirted with by Meg and then that debacle at the brothel. Considering the fact IRL there are middle aged men and women who come out as bi-sexual it's hardly a stretch for Castiel to find he is capable of romantic feelings for other men. 4) At a meta level, while Jensen has been very clear he has a strong vision of Dean as a straight male. Misha seems much less certain and more open to the idea of exploring that side of Cas. To to be clear I'm not at all speculating they're going to go down the route of exploring Castiel's sexuality. I'm simply arguing against the notion it would "be at the characters expense" if they did. I think it could add much to the character if done right. Although, of course, the question is; would these current writers be capable of getting it right? Even if they were inclined to explore such a storyline. Sadly, Id have to say probably not considering their poor handling of him in the latter half of S12.

You know it amazes me that the show has a writer include a moment like this Where Isham compares what he considers to be his human weakness of loving Lily with Castiel's feelings about Dean. And then have figures from the show act utterly baffled by the idea that some fans consider Destiel to be a thing LOL

++ No Rest for the Wicked ++ Jus in Bello -- Bad Day at Blackrock 55- Jus in Bello 53 - No Rest for the Wicked 29 - Mystery Spot 27- A Very Supernatural Christmas 13 - Bedtime Stories 13 - Ghostfacers 13- Long Distance Call 11 - The Magnificent Seven 11 - Time is on My Side 11 - The Kids Are Alright 09 - Dream a Little Dream of Me 07 - Bad Day at Blackrock 03 - Fresh Blood Dragged to Hell by Hellhounds... 16. Malleus Maleficarum 15. Red Sky at Morning 14. Sin City

++ No Rest for the Wicked -- Bad Day at Blackrock ++ Jus in Bello 53- Jus in Bello 53 - No Rest for the Wicked 29 - Mystery Spot 27- A Very Supernatural Christmas 13 - Bedtime Stories 13 - Ghostfacers 13- Long Distance Call 11 - The Magnificent Seven 11 - Time is on My Side 11 - The Kids Are Alright 09 - Dream a Little Dream of Me 07 - Bad Day at Blackrock 05 - Fresh Blood Dragged to Hell by Hellhounds... 16. Malleus Maleficarum 15. Red Sky at Morning 14. Sin City

Season 5 is in many ways one of the most depressing seasons of the show for me. With the exception of Sam, who went through a journey of learning to find true inner strength and faith, the entire main cast are sunk down to a low point. This episode in many ways highlights this aspect of the seasonal journey of Dean, Bobby and Castiel. Here are some of my thoughts on these arcs and their build up prior to this episode. In the case of Bobby his descent began in Sympathy for the Devil when he learnt Castiel was not capable of providing a quick fix to the damage sustained to his legs. As he explained to Dean during The Curious Case of Dean Winchester. It isn't simply an issue of vanity, but a form of survivors guilt. Bobby, like most hunters, has spent years submerged in a war like atmosphere. He has been there to provide both intelligence and muscle to the other soldiers involved in the fight against the Supernatural. Suddenly, he is no longer capable of doing this! Bobby has been forced to sit in the sidelines and watch as those he cares for go off to fight without him. He feels useless and his fears are made a reality when Ellen and Jo die during the events of Abandon All Hope. The character is further broken when he is forced to 'kill' his wife Karen for the second time after Death raises her as punishment for aiding the brothers. However, as this episode shows there is still one thing that is keeping Bobby going and that is his bond with Dean. He made a promise to Dean and he intends to keep it. Is it fair of him to shift responsibility for his agency to Dean like that? Definitely not! However, if he needs to find an external source of strength to keep going through such a dark period then I'm willing to forgive him. I find it a testament to Dean's ability to get under people's skill that he was able to reach Bobby, while he was in such a dark place. Then there's Castiel. Season five represents a rather dramatic shift in the Angel's psyche. Last season he was filled with both self-righteousness and a sense of purpose. Yes, there were periods where he struggled with the task given to him e.g. On the Head of a Pin. However, he ultimately has faith in his superiors and the righteousness of their mission to follow the will of God. The conclusion of season four and the opening of season five completely shatters this illusion. The superiors he had placed his trust in had proven themselves to be duplicitous and completely contrary to the values he has always maintained. Castiel has become a soldier without a leader, and he naturally decides to try and find a new one and so the search for God begins. However, this proves to be another dead end. Castiel, the loyal and dutiful son, has suddenly found himself cast a sunder. Everything he has ever believed has been proven as false. He doesn't know how to cope. He turns to copious amounts of alcohol and arguably exhibits the potential to become the man we met during The End. By this point his faith has shifted to Dean. The man who encouraged him to think for himself and fight against the corrupt system. The man who has always exhibited a true love for his fellow man and a willingness to do whatever it took to ensure their best interest was seen. However, now it seems, that even he is about to let Castiel down and join the system they'd fought so hard against. While his words to Dean about lacking the faith held by Sam was upsetting I could also understand it. He had already been let down by numerous trusted figures, what was one more? IMO Castiel was not only beating Dean in that alley! Of course he was genuinely angry at Dean, but I also believe he was using Dean as a representation of God, Michael and all the others that had let him down. I thought Misha did an amazing job of conveying how close Castiel was to losing it completely. How close he was to following Dean command to "just do it" and continue using Dean to express his frustrations against the figures he had no power to attack directly. Sadly, Castiel ends the episode in this continued state of despair and disillusionment. And last, but certainly not least, there is Dean. This episode represents the climax of a journey of depression that began to unfold at the end of Abandon All Hope. It was then, when they lost two trusted allies, that the reality of the insane task they'd undertaken began to set in. It was then Dean learnt that this wasn't a problem that would be quickly fixed by the colt, and it wasn't going to be achieved without losses. The Winchester's descent into depression continues to unfold until it is more explicitly highlighted during My Bloody Valentine. Dean has become numb, practically dead inside, he is only going through the motions for the sake of going through them and has already reached a point where he feels defeated. He even finds himself openly praying to the heavens as he no longer feels capable of doing it alone and needs help. Then we get to Dark Side of the Moon and the end of Dean's tether has been reached as he loses faith in both the bond he shares with Sam and the hope God would provide the help he cried out for previously. We know that Dean has major abandonment issues and this is particularly clear when he ponders on whether Sam was ever truly his brother due to his desire to go to Stanford. This scene highlights that Dean is prone to taking the desire of Sam to lead a life away from hunting as a personal insult and a negative reflection on their brotherly bond. Therefore, it is unsurprising he feels a deep level of hurt when Sam's treasured memories are often occasions when he is separated from his family. For Sam those memories represent times when he escaped the repressive regime of John and was free to explore the life he wanted to lead, while for Dean they were times of worry and deep distress. It is understandable that upon his return to earth Dean is completely and utterly done. He no longer has the strength needed to keep going and considers nuclear to be the only option available to him. He doesn't trust Sam to not give in. He doesn't trust the strength of their bond. He feels the best option he can give is the one where Michael saves some people rather than allowing Lucifer to destroy all people. The depressive state of Dean is clearly reflected in the following dialogue And then there is the fact that he promised Lisa that he would ensure she and Ben are protected from the fallout of the battle between Michael and Lucifer. This is clearly a decision Dean has thought hard on, and he wouldn't have plans to provide the angels with a potential hit list (if he backed down or acted with duplicity), if he didn't intend to fully go through with it. Thankfully though Sam proves to show the faith in Dean that others such as Castiel and Bobby lacked. The display of love and affection enough to give Dean the strength needed to not keep going! Just as Bobby needed to lean on Dean's support to fight through the worst of his depression now Dean is going to lean on Sam until he finds the strength to stand truly on his own again. Other highlights of the episode - The dynamic between the true Adam, Sam and Dean. I love that he highlights blood means nothing without the emotional link to back it up and that his mum is the one who matters to him. The dynamic between them felt real, and I thought Jake had a decent chemistry with Jared and Jensen! - SO much badass Castiel! I don't mean the alley way scene, which is hard to watch, but rather his fights with the other angel. The way he tackled the two angels surrounding Adam's grave, or the sigil to banish himself and the other angels was pretty bad ass! I love when the show gives Castiel his moments to shine. - DEAN FINALLY GOT TO TAKE OUT ZACHARIAH! TAKE THAT YOU SMUG ARROGANT PIECE OF CRAP! Can you tell his demise filled me with joy?

I'm willing to suspend disbelief for the sake of the plot. IMO the show has had worse scenes than this such as the one where an angel was beaten to death by a group of homeless people even though he should have had the power to smite them on the spot. And lets be honest the brothers also should have been smited by Lucifer in pretty much every scene they've gone against him post season five. I won't include season 5 because he needed them to live to fulfill their roles. IMO when viewers are watching a group of humans deal with supremely powerful beings we have to be willing to suspend our belief. If things played out the way they realistically would a show wouldn't last long.

IMO the show tends to portray hunting as an innate set of skills for people who've been brought up in the life and so they are easily picked back up again. For instance IMO Sam wasn't portrayed as overly rusty and dramatically worse than Dean back in season one. This in spite of the fact Sam had spent the last four years living a completely normal life at Stanford, while Dean had spent that time honing his skills. And as for Lucifer, was her feat really all that impressive? She was wearing the Enochian Brass Knuckles, which are known for weakening the strength of angels and landed a few punches before Lucifer grabbed on to her and pulled her through the portal with him.

I have no idea what the writers intended, but IMO what we got on screen portrayed Mary as similar to the brothers in s1-3. She's a good hunter, maybe even a great one, when it comes to the every day stuff like ghosts, vampires etc. However, the big stuff like higher level demons, angels etc are completely out of her league. That's the area where her sons shine.

Honestly, for all the show tries to sell us the idea that Sam and Dean are heroes and use speeches such as Castiel's to tell us they're essential to the world. An objective look at the show reveals the world would actually be better if Sam, Dean and Castiel were all locked away and kept separate from the world around them. Roughly 90% of the threats they face from season four and beyond are down to their actions. Season 4: The biggest threat was Lilith and her plans to break the 66 seals. The blame for this lies with Dean. I'm not saying he's the villain of the piece. I understand why he made the deal, but the fact remains if Dean hadn't made the deal, he would have never gone to hell, he wouldn't have broke the first seal and the apocalypse couldn't have begun.* Season 5: The big threat was the released Lucifer and the blame for this lies with Sam. If he hadn't drank the demon blood and killed Lilith then Lucifer would never be free. * Season 6: The biggest threats of this season were the alphas, soulless Sam, the mother of all and ultimately Castiel. The blame for this season events lies with Crowley and Castiel. Although the most blame falls on Castiel. If he hadn't raised SS then none of the damage he caused would have occurred. If Castiel and Crowley hadn't captured the alphas then they would never have gained the attention of Eve, and she would never have crossed over. If Castiel hadn't become power drunk on the 50,000 souls from hell he wouldn't have messed around with the purgatory portal. Season 7: The biggest threat here was the Levithians, and blame for this lies solely with Castiel. If Cas hadn't opened the portal to purgatory they would never have gotten out. Dick Roman would not have went about digging up the tablets and the issues they caused would never have occurred. Season 8: Here it gets murkier. Naomi was not anyone's direct responsibility, but it could be argued that if the demon tablets weren't dug up she would never have felt the need to get involved. The blame for Abbadon lies with no one as she would have always reappeared in the timeline. The Metatron related stuff really lies with all three. It was Sam and Dean who hunted down Metatron and kicked that hornets nest. It was Castiel, and to a lesser extent Dean, who accidentally helped him kick the angels out of heaven. Season 9: The big threats of season nine were Abbadon and Metatron, which I've already covered. Season 10: The big issues were Deanmon and the mark of Cain's influence on Dean. The blame for these lie with Dean. If he hadn't agreed to take on the Mark he would never have become a demon, and he wouldn't be fighting against its influence. The blame also lies with Metatron for Demon Dean as he is the one who killed Dean and activated the mark. Season 11: The big threats here were Lucifer and the Darkness. The blame for the darkness lies with Sam, as he broke the mark. While the blame for Lucifer lies with Castiel as he never should have said yes. Season 12: The big threats were the BMoL and Lucifer. I've covered Lucifer - although the blame for him does shift to Crowley from LOTUS on. While I wouldn't blame the BMoL for anyone as hey were a long term organisation. Season 13: The blame for Jack originates with Cas, as he is the one who let Lucifer out and stopped the brothers from depowering him as a foetus. * There is a question mark about how much responsibility lies with the brothers for season 4 and 5, as we know a lot of work was done by both heaven and hell in the background.

I'll listen later when I have a chance, but that only applies to J2. There was nothing remotely resembling respect shown towards Misha at SDCC this year. There was that ridiculous stunt with the chair and the clips shown while Kansas played decidated more time to both Bobby and Donna than Cas. I honestly wish Misha had done a Mark Pellegrino and not bothered to show at all.

While I understand why the show went with Samantha Smith I still wish they'd made use of Amy Gumenick instead. IMO she was the better overall actress and her youthful appearance would have better sold the idea of Mary, as a young woman in her late twenties trying to find her way in a world where her sons are older than her.

-- Bad Day at Blackrock ++ The Kids are Alright ++ Jus in Bello 51 - Jus in Bello 49 - No Rest for the Wicked 29 - A Very Supernatural Christmas 27 - Mystery Spot 13 - Bedtime Stories 13 - Ghostfacers 13- Long Distance Call 11 - The Magnificent Seven 11 - Time is on My Side 11 - The Kids Are Alright 09 - Dream a Little Dream of Me 07 - Bad Day at Blackrock 07 - Fresh Blood Dragged to Hell by Hellhounds... 16. Malleus Maleficarum 15. Red Sky at Morning 14. Sin City

IMO this thread by its very nature often discusses pretty hot button topic for members of the fandom such as Sam not looking for Dean, Dean's involvement in the non-con possession of Sam, Sam's decision to side with Ruby and so on. They're the type of issues one may feel strongly about and it leads to fans coming across as more biased / hateful towards a character than they actually are. I figured I'll share some meta / self-analysis on why I take the position I have during bitch vs jerk discussions. I'm going to start by analyzing what I personally consider to be the worst actions of Dean, Sam and Castiel. I'm not going to include Crowley in this because my standards for acceptable behaviour differ depending on the type of character the show is portraying someone as. For instance how I expect a protagonist who is an outright villain such as Hannibal Lecter to behave is very different to how I'd expect characters deemed 'heroes' like Sam and Dean to behave. So since Crowley was more of a bad guy who did good things when it suited he doesn't have the same criteria. The three acts I'd personally consider the worst are: 1. Sam - His decision to side with Ruby and go against Dean. 2. Castiel - His decision to break Sam's wall in order to distract them at the end of season six. 3. Dean - His decision to collaborate with Ezekiel in the task of tricking Sam into allowing possession. The worst sins of Castiel and Dean in particular I consider to be absolutely vile. It doesn't matter to me who the character involved was, they could be my absolute favorite or a character I loathe with a fiery passion, but violations like that are always going to result in a disgusted reaction from me. It isn't a case of "Oh well I love Cas, so what he did is OK and I'll defend it, but I hate Dean so I'm going to make sure to condemn it". When asked I am going to list both acts as the worst thing that particular character ever did. So a fair question from other users may be "Well if you're so disgusted by both how come you continue to love one character (Cas), while you've displayed a lowered opinion of the other (Dean)?" The answer to this lies in the show / character's handling of the aftermath. I actually don't mind when a show has its hero do something that I'd consider morally wrong. I understand that from a show runner's perspective such things add drama and tension, and it would get boring to write a character who is perfectly perfect in every way. However, if they are going to go through with a plot like that then the show needs to handle it with proper care, if they want my love of a character to go undamaged. The show managed to do this with Sam and Castiel, but they failed to do it with Dean. The mistakes of Castiel and Sam had several common factors that helped to lessen the sting of their reprehensible behaviour. 1. The shows narrative clearly portrays the actions of Castiel and Sam as incorrect. Yes, they try to balance things out by allowing us to understand their primary motives i.e. Castiel in his hubris underestimated the damage he had wrought and thought he could fix it when everything was said and done. That he was acting out of desperation as he feared Raphael would restart the apocalypse and undo everything they'd made sacrifices for if he went unchecked. While Sam under the influence of the demon blood and Ruby thought he was the only one who could stop Lilith and prevent the end of the world. The show maintains a certain level of sympathy for the pair of them. However, in spite of this, the actions of both are portrayed as utterly wrong. The show leaves no doubts in the viewers mind Castiel and Sam were wrong to do what they did and set up a redemptive arc for both. How successfully they accomplished this is dependent on the viewer. For instance I know some viewers have never forgiven Cas for breaking Sam's wall, or forgiven Sam for the things he did and said during the latter half of season four. Regardless, their actions were presented as wrong and the show was aware of it as such. 2. More importantly, the characters of Sam and Castiel were able to acknowledge what they did was wrong. When Castiel returned during The Born Again Identity he does not try to claim his actions were righteous. He does not try to justify the breaking of Sam's wall by speaking of how he needed to stop Raphael and would take similar action in future if it made strategic sense. Instead he owns up to his mistake and apologizes to Sam admitting he should never have done it and wanted to do something to make up for it. Likewise, Sam behaves in a repentant manner throughout Sympathy for the Devil. He owns up to Bobby, he speaks of how a mere apology and an acknowledgement he screwed up isn't enough, he asks Dean what he can do to make it up to him. He does not offer excuses or worse state he would side with Ruby all over again. 3. Not only is the acknowledgement they did something wrong there, but they actually tried to do something about it. When it came down to it Sam was willing to sacrifice his life and jump in the cage to make up for being the one to release Lucifer during Swan Song. While Castiel was willing to take on Sam's mental damage at the end of The Born Again Identity. In addition to this, Castiel was willing to stay in purgatory and make penance. He was willing to isolate himself from others. Overall, the show handled the arcs of both characters in a way where we were allowed to see the characters grow. They made their mistake, they owned up to their mistake and tried to do something about it. They proved they had learnt something from the experience and wouldn't repeat such a thing. Although, I do think Sam's redemptative arc was superior to Cas', but at least Cas got one albeit a poorly written one. Therefore, while I still disapprove of the act I was able to move on from it and not let it affect my current view of the character as they are different people now to the people they were then. On the other hand, absolutely none of this criteria was met with Dean, and therefore my opinion of him was dramatically lowered as he would be willing to do the same again and hasn't learnt anything from it. Why do I feel this way? Let's take a look at his arc. 1. The show in no way condemns the actions of Dean in the way they condemned Castiel and Sam's. When Sam calls Dean out on what he did the writers made sure to add additional attacks on Dean's character and end the scene with a focus on his devastated face. These personal attacks and the Dean focus intended to ensure sympathy remained with the man who was nobly trying to save his brothers life. In addition to this, the writers make it very clear who they consider to be the hero of the piece when they conclude the in character conflict with Sam admitting "he lied about not being willing to do the same and thus invalidating Sam's legitimate complaints. As a viewer it is rather stomach turning to watch the show glorify an act I consider to be a gross violation at every level. It makes it far harder to move on from the shows decision to go there with Dean. 2. In addition to the show, Dean himself was never able to admit what he did was wrong. When he was confronted by Sam, at the end of The Purge, he shows absolutely no remorse for the mental and physical trauma he inflicted on Sam. He proudly proclaims that he would do the same thing all over again, as long as it got him what he wanted i.e. an alive Sam. He doesn't even care that it resulted in the death of Kevin, someone he was supposed to consider a friend, as long as he and Sam are back fighting the good fight again. Obviously Dean makes no attempts to show us how he has changed as he feels he did nothing wrong. He is still the guy who is willing to inflict trauma on his brother, as long as the needs of Dean are met. He is still the same guy who perceives others around them as pawns to be scarified if it means Sam will be around to fight the good fight with him. Does this mean the events of season nine have permanently lowered my opinion of Dean's character? Absolutely. Does this mean I am going to discuss his actions in season nine in a harsh condemning manner? Certainly Does this mean I find it hard to buy the shows attempt to sell us the idea that Dean Winchester should be considered a hero? Definitely! Perhaps an anti-hero, but even that is stretching things for me. Does this mean I utterly hate Dean and want him written off of the show? No. Does this mean I am incapable of ever feeling sympathy for Dean and will always side with Castiel and Sam over him? Definitely not. There are numerous occasions throughout the show where I am able to feel sympathy for Dean. I felt sorry for Dean when we are introduced to him in the Pilot and he genuinely fears the fate of his missing father. Although I found his early season obedience to John rather irritating I can understand it was the result of his trauma after the striga incident portrayed in Something Wicked. In addition to this, I felt nothing but pity for Dean when we learnt of him breaking in hell. I did not harshly jump to the conclusion he was a monster, but rather maintained enough objectivity to realise he was still a victim in all of this. I mostly sided with Dean during his conflict with Sam at the end of season four (I did lose some sympathy when he decided to bring Sam going to Stanford into things). I understood his extreme anger towards Castiel at the end of season seven and did not judge him for harsh statements like "No body cares that you're broken". I understood Cas hurt Dean deeply and he was not yet ready to forgive him. I hated it when Sam lied to Dean about joining the BMoL and made the horrible "I'll work on him" comment to Mick. So to wrap up this long rant! Yes, there are acts of Dean's that I feel a high level of disdain towards. There are aspects of his personality I may also find disagreeable. However, that does not mean I hate the overall character with the passion my disapproving posts in this thread may suggest, and I wouldn't be surprised to learn it was the same for others. I hate actions Dean has undertaken, but at this point I don't hate Dean Winchester.

I wish I could like this post more than once!

Agreed! Sam's plan was reliant on him gaining control for a few minutes at most, just long enough to jump into the cage. Sure Dean could have gained control for a short period of time, but what does he do with it besides stand around pointlessly? He can't try and kill Lucifer because that's exactly what Michael had planned to do anyway. Unless viewers really just want Dean to get the credit for destroying half the world using Michael's power. They can't lock him in the cage because again they didn't know about the horseman's rings acting as a key. Castiel did something wrong when he beat on Dean! He took it way too far! However, Sam and Bobby were right to treat Dean the way they did. They treated him like he had given up because he had given up. Dean himself says it quite clearly himself I'm sorry if this sounds harsh to anyone reading, but I think it's absolutely ridiculous to blame the others for not going like "Of course Dean! You just go off and help Michael scorch half the planet. We are such silly, silly people for trying to stop it for so long". There was absolutely nothing to be gained by them allowing Dean to say yes at this point. At least with Sam they had a plan and a chance of success. It was a slim chance, but even a 1/10 chance beats no chance at all.

But there was a clear difference in the circumstances between Dean's plan to say yes and Sam's plan to say yes. In the case of Dean he was in a state of depression and resignation. He wasn't planning to say yes because of some greater purpose, but rather he had decided it was time for them to give into the inevitable. At this time they hadn't found out about the horse mans ring being the key to the cage, so there was no known way to stop the battle! All Dean would have done was allow Michael to destroy the world quicker! Hardly a plan for Castiel, Sam and Bobby to fawn over and praise him for. With Sam on the other hand they did have a plan. They did have a plan of action! They had found a way to contain the devil and stop the major battle that would destroy half the worlds population from occurring. It was a risky plan to be sure, but there was a plan. Unlike Dean, Sam was not going in with a defeatist plan and condemning the world because he had given up. As for the Cas and Dean beat down, I have thoughts on it I'll post when I get to PONR in my rewatch, but what I will say is I don't approve of Cas beating Dean like that.

++ The Kids Are Alright ++ Jus in Bello -- Bad Day at Blackrock 51 - No Rest for the Wicked 49 - Jus in Bello 29 - A Very Supernatural Christmas 27 - Mystery Spot 13 - Bedtime Stories 13 - Ghostfacers 13- Long Distance Call 11 - The Magnificent Seven 11 - Time is on My Side 09 - Dream a Little Dream of Me 07 - Bad Day at Blackrock 07 - Fresh Blood 07 - The Kids Are Alright Dragged to Hell by Hellhounds... 16. Malleus Maleficarum 15. Red Sky at Morning 14. - Sin City

Nope, I did not forget that. However, IMO a preference is a preference and creates a certain level of biasness. Admittedly, not as big as the bias of a viewer who hates one and loves the other, but a bias nonetheless. Unless one loves both equally it's impossible to claim complete unbiased. But we can agree to disagree on this.

But then you've admitted yourself to having a preference for Dean. So while you may not loathe Sam and assume the absolute worst in everything. Your Dean preference may create a bias your unaware of.

Thanks for the information! My Benny issues aside, hopefully they won't bring him back if he has been known to show up to work occasions drunk. I'm referring to the previous occasions and not the day he claimed to be roofied. I'm not going to pass any judgement there since we don't know what happened.

Moved from Spoiler and Spec thread! Nothing spoilery for those who don't read them. I totally agree about Benny! But I hadn't heard anything about misconduct on Ty Olsson's part at conventions? What exactly is he said to have done?

Replying in the appearances thread.

OR Cas gets to be the one to chop off Benny's head this time! That would actually be amazing *goes off to write fanfic* And yeah apparently Jensens mentioned wanting him back, but I'll live in hope the writers will continue to ignore Jensen until the end of the show! Rather than bring back an utter caricature of a Mary Sue vampire. But we can agree to disagree :)