Wayward Son

Yes, sorry, I was trying to create a distinction between immortal, which as DDD says means to never age or decay and invincible, which means that along with there being no known way to kill you. So Immortal = Will never age or decay if left alone to live their life in peace. However, there is a way to kill them with an outside force such as fire, beheading etc. Invincible = Will never age or decay and they can not be killed with any known weapon. I believe @Cassiopeia was referring to vampires as immortal rather than invincible. Oh, I know, but the very concept of the character of Benny is offensive to me for reasons I've stated in Bitch vs Jerk! So the only way I'd want to see him on screen is if the writers rid the multiverse of another version of him ;)

Maybe we will both get lucky and you can have your Missouri gutting, and I can get Benny getting his head chopped off ;)

I think @Cassiopeia meant immortal in the sense that vampires can potentially live forever if they don't get on the wrong side of a hunter. Invincible is generally the word to use a character that can both live together and also have no known way of killing them ;)

The only appearance I want of Benny is us getting to see his head getting chopped off again ;). rid the universe of all the Benny's possible I say.

Oh god, please don't tell me Dean's hateful cuddly bear vampire is coming back!

-- Bad Day at Black Rock ++ No Rest for the Wicked ++ Jus in Bello 51 - No Rest for the Wicked 49 - Jus in Bello 29 - A Very Supernatural Christmas 27 - Mystery Spot 13 - Bedtime Stories 13 - Ghostfacers 13- Long Distance Call 11 - The Magnificent Seven 11 - Time is on My Side 09 - Dream a Little Dream of Me 07 - Bad Day at Blackrock 07 - The Kids Are Alright 07 - Fresh Blood 01 - Sin City

That was a really interesting read thanks for sharing! I was also really surprised by your comments on J2. For some reason I always thought It would have been the opposite way around in regards to plot vs character motivation, so that was good to know!

Really interesting post! Especially the Personal POV about J2! Have you had any similar dealings with Misha? :)

So now that we've all had time to process the spoilers released at SDCC I'm curious to know what storylines are you most looking forward to seeing play out? - The boys in our world dealing with the loss of allies and Jack - Castiel in an unknown realm dealing with an "old friend" and his presumed journey back to our world. - Lucifer and Mary in the alt!world - The introduction of the Wayward Sisters verse. I think ive covered everyone alluded to?

And he also references it in Lucifer Rising when questioning whether he and Sam were ever family and again in Dark Side of the Moon when he describes Sam as bailing out on his family. If it's a sore topic for Dean six years after it occurred, is it really hard to believe that he wouldn't even more angry the night it actually happened? I dont think so and so and neither do the show runners since the show never mentioned Dean acting as the "Peace maker" on that night. Any such claims are fanon and not at all in line with what the show states about that night, or Dean's treatment of Sam over it years later.

But the show has never made reference to such a thing happening and surely they would have, if we the audience are meant to believe that Dean did try to intervene. Plus, considering the fact Sam's decision to go to Stanford was a source of bitterness for Dean years later it makes sense he agreed with John's condemnation.

Thanks for the transcript :) And I see the hug can be open to interpretation. Also, thanks for providing the wording. What I'm seeing is Sam talking about how he couldn't cope with being alone, of how he fled after his entire family was killed (from his perspective anyway) and not the smug "OMFG I QUIT AND IT WAS AWESOME! Get away from me Dean you pleb" many fans try to sell in fandom. I'm generally a believer that if something isn't stated as occurring then it mustn't have happened. Anything else is simply head canon. IIRC corrrctly what we know of the night Sam chose to leave was 1) Sam announced he was leaving for Stanford 2) John did not react well to this and an argument began. According to Dean, and it wasn't refuted by Sam, harsh words were said by both sides with Sam giving as good as he got. 3. Dean was present when this went down since he talks about recalling the harsh comments mentioned in 2. 4. John reaches the end of his tether and the argument concludes with the ultimatum that if he walks out the door he isn't to return. 5. Sam accepts this is the way it has to and he leaves. There is no reference to attempted interventation on Dean's part. He may not have been able to change John's mind, but Dean could have tried to stop John. Even if it was a simple "come on dad, that's too far" about the ultimatum only for him to be rebuked by John, but there's no mention of Dean even trying to do that much. So I think it is fair to describe the situation as John kicking Sam out and Dean standing by while it happened, P.S: In regard to the picture of John and Mary shown in the pilot, could it not simply be a case of Sam displayed that picture because it showed Mary? While he may have had his issues with Dean and John there is nothing to say he felt the same about Mary. In fact, even if not to the same extent of Dean, he had a rather romanticised view of her as the perfect mum. It makes sense to me he'd display what is possibly the only picture he has of her without it actually meaning he was more angry with Dean than John. Maybe he just hadn't reached the level of petty needed to tear the picture in half and burn John's end. Plus with Mary leaning no John's chest it would have been pretty hard to crop John out anyway. Of course since Sam never explicitly states his motivation this is only an alternative explanation / potential head canon :)

Ah, OK there was a misunderstanding on my part. I thought Mark had revealed at Cons he was the one who chose to leave and his moment of realisation came at the end of 11, when to paraphrase Mark's words, Crowley was propped up at a bar while saving the world was going down. Sorry for the mix up everyone.

Ah I forgot to vote. Damn it! -- Bad Day at Black Rock ++ No Rest for the Wicked ++ Jus in Bello 49 - No Rest for the Wicked 47 - Jus in Bello 29 - A Very Supernatural Christmas 27 - Mystery Spot 13 - Bedtime Stories 13 - Ghostfacers 13- Long Distance Call 11 - The Magnificent Seven 11 - Time is on My Side 09 - Bad Day at Blackrock 09 - Dream a Little Dream of Me 07 - The Kids Are Alright 07 - Fresh Blood 01 - Sin City Dragged to Hell by Hellhounds... 16. Malleus Maleficarum 15. Red Sky at Morning

I personally do not believe the credit for this belongs to Dabb & Co. There were three primary deaths in the finale Castiel, Crowley and Rowena. Based on what we know so far Castiel will be back (as himself or an alt is debatable) and Mark Shepard quit as he felt the writers had run out of things to do with Crowley. So really the only death that can be attributed to Dabb is Rowena and even she may come back at some point in future.

Yes, but the problem with this is Dean continues to exhibit such belief well past the age of 21-22. He even goes as far as to question if Sam was ever his brother because he "ran away to Stanford" in Lucifer Rising. A period when he would have been what 29-30? Well past the point when Dean ought to have grown up.

Do you read spoilers? I have a reply to this, but it belongs better in the spoiler thread, and I don't want to write up a reply you won't want to read because of them :)

I think we will have to agree to disagree on Dean's motive. As I quoted in an earlier post, IMO the information given to Sam was vague because he feared Sam would rather die than allow possession. He didn't consider Sam an equal who should be allowed to make a decision about his own agency. I don't think the writers would have included that exchange if we were meant to think the information was kept from Sam due to a lack of time. Exactly! As I mentioned earlier, I was pretty annoyed too when I heard that! I've chosen to give Dean the benefit of the doubt and assume he only said it out of defensiveness. Otherwise I'd be forced to argue he needs to get locked up for the safety of everyone else. When other people become disposable pawn to be sacrificed at a moments notice there is something seriously wrong.

After the discussion about rape vs violation I feel wary of using a real life example, but I'm struggling to get my point across otherwise. So I'm going to put it in a spoiler tag. Warning - this may be triggering for those with experiences of cancer be it direct or indirect.

Sorry I didn't mean that it's interesting to discuss it for the sake of discussing it. I meant if a show, any show, portrays the act of rape should that scene be off limits for discussion? Again, I was looking for clarification not to argue. Anyways, although I think such a descriptor is fitting, out of respect for those who it can make feel uncomfortable I will refer to possession by the more generic "Violation", which could be used to describe a number of things as opposed to one specific thing. Is that acceptable? To be clear in case tone doesn't translate well. I'm not being sarcastic or anything like that. I have no desire to cause anyone real life upset, so I'm trying to clarify to avoid doing so in future.

So if a show depicts rape, the actual act rather than a supernatural verse equivalent, then is it disgusting to discuss it as such because it happened to a fictional character? I'm not trying to offend, just to clarify what is being asked / said here.

But the show itself has always portrayed possession as being a metaphor for rape and torture. When that happens naturally viewers are going to make that connection.

And I disagree that Dean thought Sam was "having a dip" as you put it. What Dean feared was Sam saying no to the method of healing proposed by Dean due to his previous experiences with Lucifer and Meg. The episode itself is very clear about this: The episode is very clear. Sam was ready to die if there was no acceptable way to save him. If he was simply sucidial he would never have agreed to the vague promises. Dean knowingly chose to disrespect Sam, to treat him like his personal puppet, by withholding crucial information that Sam needed to make an informed choice in case said choice wasn't the one Dean wanted made. Dean's behaviour in the first half of season 9 was abusive. Note the "first half of season 9" portion of that sentence. It is not a sweeping statement about their relationship throughout the show. You're right. When I am done with this post I will edit my post to say "many" Dean fans as opposed to an all encompassing Dean fans. However, I do find that the percentage of Dean fans willing to defend anything is higher than the other two. For instance most Cas fans I know, while we can understand what drove him to it, will agree breaking Sam's wall was a major crossing of the line, or that Sam's actions in late season four were wrong. Yet most Dean fans regard forcing possession on Sam, knowing it was something he would rather die than experience, to be just. Then why should Sam still be hated seasons later yet Dean is long forgiven for his actions, if what Dean did is worse than what Sam said? In in regards to that scene I experienced a similar level of hate for Dean the moment he said he'd do it again. Partially because of the issues I said above, but also because of what that says about Dean. Kevin died, someone he was meant to care for and protect, and Dean regards that as an acceptable sacrifice? Ive chosen to give Dean the benefit of the doubt and assume he was being overly defensive because if he truly means that then Dean needs to be securely locked up for the protection of those around him.

No, it wasn't the fact that Dean neglected to tell Sam once he woke that was the problem. It was the fact he aided Gadreel in the act of tricking Sam into the possession in the first place. Dean had the opportunity to communicate with Sam in the coma landscape. There needed to be such contact so that Sam could have said yes. What should have happened if Dean truly regards Sam as an equal, an adult capable of making his own decisions, was Dean sitting Sam down and explaining the situation to him. I'm not good at "Dean speak" but something along the lines of "Hey Sammy, you're dying and it's really bad. I've looked, but the only option is allowing an angel to possess you and heal your body in the process. Please Sammy, I'll keep an eye on things! And make sure he leaves you as soon as you're better". He should have let Sam have control of his agency and not consented to behaving like a common demon by condoning an act the show has equated to rape and torture. Had Dean taken this course of action it also would have negated the need for the further abuses @sugarbabex23 outlined in their post. Instead the situation would have been handled in a manner respectful to manner and his right to self-agency. Of course Gadreel could have turned in such a scenario too, but at least it was a risk that blew up in Sam's face and not something forced on him. So, are you saying you've never said overly harsh words in an argument? That in times of high emotion, when someone has truly hurt you, that you haven't gone further than you should have? Because I know I have and pretty much everyone I know has. It's a pretty normal human reaction to lash out when someone has hurt us and regret it. There is is absolutely nothing equivalent about Sam's words at the end of The Purge. A few harsh words is in no way equal to Dean conspiring to force an act on Sam he has always regarded as vile (just look at his comments at the prospect of a Michael possession), prolonged lying, gaslighting Sam and making him fear for his mental health. Not to mention the consequence of this being a close friend being murdered by Sam's hand. IMO such attempts to equate the two are a perfect example of how many Dean fans are not being able to admit when he was wrong, or downplaying the severity of his actions in order to ensure he doesn't look too bad.

This is my experience also! Even in this thread I've read posts where Sam is described as having an ego trip equal to Lucifer, needing a submissive bitch to appease him and not one complaint was made. I make a post that is "filled with disdain" towards Dean and suddenly complaints about how people are biased and there should be downvotes begin. It's hard to see such complaints as genuine, rather than an attempt to censor anti-Dean posts, when my post is quoted while posts containing the content I mention above in regards to Sam go uncommented on. My general experience is Sam and Castiel fans will admit when they are wrong! For instance, while I get where he is coming from Sam's actions in late season 4 were completely wrong and Cas breaking Sam's wall crossed a major line. I find Dean fans are not quite so willing to make such concessions such as defending the atrocity of allowing the Gadreel possession. ETA: I don't want to ruin the thread / dampen the mood for anyone, so if anyone would like to discuss what I've mentioned in the first paragraph ever please do so by personal message.