ReadMeLattice

They 100% agreed on polygamy before they were married. It was their mutual religion. It was not pushed on Meri by Kody in any way. Meri professes to still be a devoted member of the AUB (fundamentalist Mormon cult). We might not see polygamy as four real marriages, but those women and their own religious beliefs certainly do. Legal marriage and divorce mean nothing in their eyes. It was not a breakup to them. They have all been "sealed" in the Mormon temple, which means sealed for eternity, beyond death, to one's husband AND each other. That's why we didn't see Kody's marriage to Robyn. It was a sealing. Kody not paying attention to Meri doesn't take that spiritual reality away in her eyes. She was the one who asked Kody to stop coming around for a while (because she was "with" the catfish). In her eyes, she has been married this entire time. And she didn't just chat or fantasize. She planned an entire future and professed undying love. While married. Yep, he ignored Meri for Robyn. In Meri's chosen religion, that is OK and makes her no less married. Our rules of divorce don't apply and are inferior in these people's eyes.

I very much disagree. If you are professing love to someone for months, spending the majority of your time talking to them, and planning to leave your husband and family for them, it is an affair. To take this logic to its conclusion, if the person doesn't have sex until marriage or can't have sex for some physical reason? Is it then impossible to have an affair with them? If you go on romantic, intimate dates with someone and lie to your spouse about it but don't have sex, is it not cheating?! Of course it is. You're still married to someone even if they're deployed and you don't see them or have sex with them for a year, so it would stand to reason that you can also cheat in the same way. Sorry, didn't see the mods' note before I wrote this. Carry on and ignore!

Just popped over to Nathan's Facebook. He is bragging about having a driver's license and motorcycle license and wants to get his pilot's and boating license too...more vehicles for him to endanger others on. Whoever Noah Griffith is (brother?) says, you can't drive a car, let alone a plane...I won't be a passenger. These TM dads (Adummmmm) love doing dangerous shit with vehicles.

Anyone with a great deal of past trauma (PTSD, BPD), whether from childhood abuse, war, etc., is very difficult to treat.

So true. It's just that this particular group also loves to get engaged/married/pregnant/arrested within a 6-month span or so. MTV doesn't help, I'm sure.

I just didn't see any bad behavior at all from Mariah this episode. What, because she didn't salivate over the paintings and sob openly at their beauty? She was fine. I just don't get it.

I find it disgusting that Nathan brushed off the accusations of abuse from both Barb and Jenelle so easily. Because it's not a big deal to choke and slap a woman, even a pregnant woman?! I get that Jenelle is just as abusive, but DAMN. He didn't even really defend himself! Yes, he said she cut her wrists (as if that makes it OK to abuse someone...), but a cut on the wrist doesn't explain the choking, slapping, and trespassing. He didn't say anything about that. I wonder how long it'll be before Nathan gets violent with the next one when he's trashed.

I forgot to add--BPD patients are definitely equally capable of empathy and love as anyone else, and desperately long for it, even if they don't know how to show it depending on how severe their disorder is (many are very high functioning) and push people away because they have been repeatedly, usually VERY severely abused, often by a parent. I think Jenelle is in pain, but I don't know that she is truly capable of any empathy...It's impossible to tell, I guess, but Jenelle doesn't really seem to *love* anybody. People with BPD often love people too much and have accepted a great deal of abuse (not that Jenelle hasn't been abused; she has, but I've never really seen real emotion from her). They're certainly not sociopaths/uncaring/lacking in emotion. I could be totally wrong, obviously, and it could just be very deeply buried in her. I don't like to think someone has no hope. She's still young and could get treatment. But she might just be a huge asshole.

SERIOUSLY. This is treated as an 'oh well' by the only 'medical professional' (I seriously hesitate to call him that) on this show, and it is straight up neglect on part of both of her parents. They OPENLY admitted to disobeying doctor's orders and think nothing of it. I know they're not bright, but I cannot imagine they are truly all that stupid that they don't know what they're doing is wrong. Right...?

Here's the thing--it's fine not to want a guy who works 6 days out of the week, or to want a homemaking, quiet type of woman. I'd never want to marry a guy who spent 5-6 nights a week away from home and could barely contact me, no matter how great he seemed. So I didn't. And my husband didn't want to marry someone with bottomless emotional needs, so he didn't. But you don't have the right to whine when you knew full well what you were getting. But these people all get married and/or engaged, procreate, and KNOW what they're getting and then bitch about it endlessly and end up breaking up over things that clearly existed from day one. I'm sorry, was Javi a free-spirited, totally-not-jealous dude when he and Kail were dating, who wanted an independent career woman? Was Kailyn a warm, maternal (she is a good mom, but I mean nurturing), housewifey type who wanted armfuls of children and *suddenly* she didn't want more kids? Was Jeremy a sensitive, emotional family man whose priority was staying at home with the kids and his girl? Was Leah totally on her game, ambitious, ready to hold down the homefront and be stoic and strong? Was Jenelle NOT a fucked up, child-neglecting addict? Was Nathan NOT an abusive, alcoholic loser? So why do they do it? Is that just the person of the moment and they have no impulse control, or do they fool themselves into thinking they're someone else, or...? What is it?

@3girlsforus, the entire family--not just Kody--taught Mariah since birth that that was morally and spiritually correct. Men are (literally) gods in fundamentalist Mormonism.They can't act surprised if their kids were brainwashed enough to believe it. Also, Meri isn't critiquing Kody either, just the catfish. If she was, it'd be different, but she's just bitching about the evil catfish and praising Kody and their religion. But Mariah, a 21-year-old (or so) college kid, is supposed to magically understand that and ignore her mother's actual words and what she professes to believe? If Mariah were to say, "Oh, I see that this is partly Dad's fault," MERI would be the first to disagree with her and say no, how dare you, Kody is wonderful and he is my eternal husband (another one of their beliefs), it's all the awful catfish and I only left voicemails and sent sexts and fake blow job photos because I was being THREATENED. Mariah knows better. She knows she wasn't 'threatened,' and from her feminist, uber-progressive ideals she shares on social media (sometimes directly contradicting her dad), it seems she very much knows their religion is a misogynistic crock of shit. But she's certainly not going to say that to her mom because that's not what her mom says she believes. Meri is VERY clearly arrogant towards Janelle and wants to sell this idea of herself as fun-loving, adventurous, strong, bold, and a go-getter, while Janelle, who worked her entire life, is a lazy slug because she doesn't want to do decorating projects. That "F-U-N" comment had very clear subtext. It wasn't a joke.

Leah and Corey might as well just go on the show and say, "We feel we're smarter than one of the top muscular dystrophy specialists in the world."

So... 1. Nathan says Jenelle's still a drug addict, which we pretty much know is true, and Jenelle says Nathan is an abuser and broke into her home, which we also know is true...and Sad Panda is pretty much like "oh okay?" Let's bring out David?! 2. Corey and Leah are all openly psyched about T-ball and Dr. Drew doesn't mention the wheelchair a single time, because he's a hack. Why does MTV still pretend this guy has any sort of integrity? Also, I feel horrible for Addy. Jeremy doesn't deserve her.

I couldn't really follow, honestly. I figure most of what they say to each other now is manipulation...I don't trust either of their stories. They're both pretending to not still be violent addicts and clearly are. Nathan could just as well be hiding his abuse of her. He's an alcoholic and I'm sure she still uses...and supposedly he himself has PTSD. I'm sure their fights got ugly and violent regularly. BPD patients often have a long history of self harm. Many are highly emotional and sensitive, even childlike, while Jenelle's affect is flat and cold unless she's high or angry. I see some similarities with Jenelle's attachment issues and unstable relationships, but BPD is really complex and, like I said, up to 75% have a history of childhood sexual trauma and 90% were abused or neglected as kids. You'd have to deeply know the person and work with them extensively to diagnose BPD. That would be up to her and a therapist. My personal opinion is that her kids are more likely to have BPD or some kind of attachment disorder or PTSD than she is.

I agree, but they raised her in a Kody-worshipping patriarchal cult since birth. You reap what you sow. Also, Meri hasn't actually asked forgiveness. She's a lying liar who plays the victim and pretends to have been stalked by a catfish rather than to have planned to leave the family, but also isn't strong enough to leave. I'd be SO fucking over my insufferable bitch of a lying mother at this point. It's not infidelity they chose to work out, according to Meri. In her version, she's the innocent victim of everyone else.

Mariah said on the show that she knew early on and warned her, and that Meri ignored her and didn't believe it was a catfish.

Then she shouldn't be telling her all about it and begging for her forgiveness. Any idiot could have seen her mom was having an affair, and Meri left all those voicemails while Mariah was staying at home. She likely heard them and they fought about it. Meri's the one trying to make Mariah a 'best friend.' You don't get to have it both ways--you can't suddenly have authority after you've used your daughter as a pseudo-spouse for years.

Giving credit where credit is due: It's wonderful that Logan was a substitute dad for the kids (well, wonderful for the kids, not for Logan/polygamy), but Aspyn, as some of you pointed out, was 100% a mom/second parent to Christine's children. Sometimes guys are given more credit because it's more unusual, but Aspyn shouldn't have had to be a child-mother any more than he should have had to be a dad at 10. What do you guys think about Michelle wanting to be engaged to Logan right away? Is he freaked out? When Meri said "No, it's fun. F, U, N. Fun." About daredevil activities that Janelle doesn't want to do, I lost any shred of respect I had for her. Seriously, what a bitch. You can't go watch a movie with someone or look at the sunrise or take a fucking walk? You're soooo adventurous and bold and everyone else is just too lame for you? Ugh. She was never cool with it. She warned her the entire time and begged her to stop. That's part of the problem.

They are generally severely traumatized and have issues with healthy attachment. "Studies have demonstrated that people diagnosed with BPD have a high prevalence of childhood sexual abuse. In addition, childhood sexual abuse is associated with attachment avoidance. Some estimate a 75 percent rate of childhood sexual abuse in BPD patients. Furthermore, childhood sexual abuse was found to distinguish BPD patients from depressed, non-BPD adolescents. Childhood sexual abuse is not the only form of maltreatment that has been linked with BPD. Physical abuse, emotional abuse and neglect are all associated with the development of the disorder. In some studies, the rates of maltreatment were as high as 90 percent in BPD patients."

@CofCinci, it's the creepiest back and forth I've ever seen. When was her last one again?

BPD is primarily caused by severe, prolonged childhood trauma (the #1 predictor) and deserves a great deal of compassion. They are also far more likely to harm themselves than others, so I don't know that Jenelle qualifies there. Very few BPD women are violent towards anyone but themselves. There is also a huge stigma that prevents them from seeking treatment. Jenelle's extreme moods and tendency towards violence in the past would suggest bipolar disorder or plain old addiction. But that's between her and a therapist. @SneakyCentipede, that is a fantastic description of her patterns. I'd add that her partners all need some sort of enabling themselves...from Kieffer and Courtland to Nathan and Dave, they've all been assholes and addicts in their own right. They all seem to want to get with a "TV star," do drugs/drink, have sex, and mooch mooch mooch, along with being occasionally violent towards anybody who happens to be around. When either of them is like "hey maybe don't be an asshole/cheat" the other one FLIPS and there are arrests and breakups. Then there's a baby and/or a ring, another breakup, the dude comes back one last time for some more sex and money, then maybe one final arrest and boom. New partners, custody battle. Toxicity personified.

I think that was a couple days later. Supposedly his friends were stealing money from her or something, I have no idea. Her comments were disgusting. That shit was insane. I thought (hoped) after that maybe he would leave her, but he continued to live with her and fuck her for quite a long time, profess his love, etc etc., so he lost his right to complain or feel superior. Like, you're still living off her and screwing her, and she just had your kid like 2 seconds ago--but you think you're way smarter and classier? And he bitches at her about Jace when he doesn't see his daughter at all. I agree that for some reason she thought that was real, with him. It'd be sad if they weren't both such utter trash.

Maybe? But her name is Rebecca/Becky, and white girls with that name LOVE to call themselves that these days (eyeroll) so it might just be a trendy thing? Not sure though.

Haha, no. I'm saying that's probably what Javi thinks.

I agree it's not a good lifestyle, but April and Butch were both deeply abusive and neglectful and frequently went to prison. I agree he's a lazy, gross kid and a stoner, and should do a lot more, and he's an asshole. I don't feel the same about Cate because she's clearly uber depressed but I still wish she'd do something. But Butch and April were violent druggies who weren't around at all except to abuse their kids, or partners for Butch, and in and out of prison. That's just not the same.