TaurusRose

BtVS Spike - I found him amusing when first introduced, but he should have remained at all times a recurring character. Once he basically usurped the romantic lead and had a relationship with Buffy I was so done with him. Hated is not strong enough. Xander, Joyce & Cordelia - Never liked any of them. TVD Elena - She was only tolerable when she was with Stefan. But the world revolves around Elena got old fast. SATC Carrie Bradshaw - A self-involved, selfish bitch. Couldn't stand her. GoT Sansa Stark - Total waste of space. Hate her. Harry Potter Ron Weasley - Could not stand. Reign Mary Stuart - Another selfish bitch. Hate her. Kenna - Beyond stupid. Hated her. Bash - Sucked when he tried to move on the OTP. BATB Tess - Humorless, no one asked for your opinion bitch. Hate her.

Please don't do this. We have no idea what the cause of death was and to even suggest something like this without medical proof (an autopsy) is cruel and thoughtless to Prince's family and fans. David Bowie ROCKED. I loved him and was as upset at the news of his death as I was when I heard Leonard Nimoy had passed. Losing him AND Prince within months of each other just sucks all of the wind out of my sails.

I am very sad. Prince was the consummate performer. His guitar riffs were EPIC and his concert performances were phenomenal. RIP, Prince.

When J&C met J's cousin (forgot his name) he offered Jamie a percentage of the profits and the use of his home as recompense for watching over his wine business while he was traveling. So, that explains the new digs and meeting a few influential people. The appearance of such a huge wardrobe strains credibility though, since (I'm guessing) it would take a few weeks for Claire to amass so many changes of clothes, but this is entertainment not real life, so I choose to ignore it. I'm glad they are not rushing Jamie's recovery. He is being portrayed as someone who is gradually recovering physically, but the emotional trauma is going to take more time. Jamie will get there and I'm sure it will be AWESOME when he does. I did not. Especially that red dress. The color was beautiful, but it was the singular most unattractive rag Claire has worn. The decadence of the French. LOL I did not like the Duke at all and I agree with you. I hope he's dealt with. Hmmm. I take issue with all of this, so I hope my comments won't come across as snarky. First, I don't recall seeing any ACTUAL rapes except Jamie's. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) There is a lot of violence going on in Outlander; rape/near rape is one example of the violence and not as frequent as the hacking of limbs, stabbings, throat slitting, etc. Second, I abhor "man pain." Pain is pain and doesn't require a gender qualifier. Third, since the rape did not happen to Claire, nor is she likely to subjected to that particular brand of violence, than we have to deal with the aftermath of the physical violation of the MAIN character it did happen to. It would be dishonest of Outlander not to consider how the torture, rape and total capitulation of a man like Jamie will inform his self-esteem, dignity and confidence going forward. It's important to see how his trauma and guilt not only affects him, but also how it impacts his relationship with Claire. What I hope to see is that they regain their intimacy and passion and be the stronger for all that has happened. Anyway, if I were going to be offended by the above comment, it would be because it seems to be playing gender wars with an act of violence, and I don't like that. And finally, I think you are getting ahead of yourself, it would be OTT to have the same couple be victims of sexual assault. Yeah, that's one unpopular opinion. LOL But to each his own. The issue for who? 18th century. That's how they rolled. Honestly, you would think that someone as smart as Claire would use a little tact and restraint so that she wasn't constantly putting those around her in danger. I understand your point and I thought the waxing business was out of touch for the period as well. I thought Jamie was surprised by Claire's hairless state, too, but I figured he dismissed making a big deal out of it because Claire is Claire. I guess you can take either position. At any rate, it's not worth me making a fuss over. I'd rather rag on Claire's wardrobe. Did. Not. Like. It.

*scratching my head* Julia, I don't know what you're talking about. LOL DJG1122 is on the same page as I am.

Since I am officially done with SH now, my UO is that I don't give a FF about anyone connected to it, including TM. Sorry, but it's not my problem. If he were to find himself in another US series (airing on A&E, History, HBO or Starz), I'd give it a shot, but that's the extent of my goodwill.

Well, that's really not the point is it? Claire and Jamie were presented with a marriage contract. The terms for it to be legal, valid and binding was that it be consummated. Neither Claire or Jamie are going to lie about sealing the deal, nor should they have. Claire did have a choice. She chose doing whatever it took not to be in BJR's presence again. I certainly don't blame her. Which I believe was exactly the point. Something very bad happened to a wonderful, heroic young man and it's going to inform who he is, how he deals with things and interacts with people (especially those closest to him) for a very long time. This is going to test the mettle of Jamie and Claire's love and commitment. This is going to have consequences. This is going to have an impact on their intimacy, which has been a very important part of their relationship, and if I hadn't seen for myself exactly what happened to Jamie, I might not be able to totally understand why he's so messed up and how this is going to haunt him for months, maybe years, to come. YMMV on this one. Sansa Stark has never been beloved by me. Actually, I've never cared for the character because she was silly, self-absorbed and a liar. I never understood where this sudden love for SS came from because IMO it didn't exist until she was raped by the mad man she was forced to marry. All of this. I wish people would stop using the word "porn" to describe what happened here. It's not an accurate use of the word. I was neither sexually aroused nor titillated by what was happening to Jamie, and I certainly don't think that was the intent. I think it's a safe bet to say neither was anyone else here. This was horrific. This was pain and degradation. This was beyond sad. As for Claire forgiving Jamie, I think Claire would have said anything to reach Jamie at this point, to help him move past his guilt, humiliation and despair, even for a moment.

Are we obligated to find every child actor "cute as a button"? Because none of these kids are all that cute to me. Actually, the one playing Alfred looked like a fucking little farmer with that hat. I hate Aslaug and her demon spawn should have been drowned out of the womb. I was hoping I wouldn't have to see Judith this week, but no, couldn't be that lucky. At least she didn't have any lines. If she did I totally tuned them out. LOL Loved that Ragnar and Bjorn stayed with Lagertha even when she told them to leave her alone. Torvi killing what's his face was kind of anti-climatic, but it did prove that Bjorn's penis was more powerful than Erlander's (I remembered his name) threats. Rollo really is simple. I hope he gets the comeuppance he deserves. The emperor's sexual preference was hardly surprising and guess what? He's still pathetic. I WAS surprised Mush Mouth didn't make a stink when he gave Roland such a powerful position. Is Ragnar close to death? He looks like crap.

I remember when the first book was being promoted. I decided against reading it because it sounded like a romance novel and I had moved passed those a while back. When the series was being promoted and I was exposed to random comments about the various episodes, I became curious and wanted to watch, but I didn't have Starz. The only thing I knew about Outlander was that the woman traveled back in time to find her true love, and I accepted the premise of present husband was a dud, past love was to die for. That being said, I now have Starz and binge watched S1. I never had any loyalty to Frank. He seemed okay, by that I mean a nice enough guy, but there was something inherently weak about him, needy, and that didn't appeal to me. When Claire and Jamie met, I knew this was the OTP. I waited for them to come together while enjoying the journey getting them there. Now, it was established right away (at least for me)--when Jamie refused to roll over during their first encounter--that BJR had a sick fascination for Jamie. While there are important events taking place alongside Jamie & Claire's romance, and we meet a lot of people in Jamie's life along the way, it was obvious to me that the main conflict J&C would have to deal with was Jamie's outlaw status and BJR. This was going to be the focus no matter how many other characters came into their lives. If people allowed their expectations to ignore this foundation, then yes, they're going to feel upset. However, to call Episode 15 torture porn is, IMO, unfairly dismissive and ignores everything that put Jamie, BJR and Claire on this collision course. Wentworth Prison was hard to watch. There was horror, fear, resignation, brutality and precious little pity. But England had been raining destruction and degradation on the people of Scotland for centuries; what takes place in 1743 is merely a continuation of what began in 1296. The idea that a person as depraved and dark as BJR being in a position to abuse his authority and individuals is not a plot device or "because." BJR should never have been sent to Scotland in a zillion years. He, quite frankly, is an animal...worse than an animal, cut from the same cloth as some of the men and women serving as police officers in 2016 are. They think their job is to mete out punishment and abuse to those they feel are inferior, blights on society if you will, rather than serving and protecting all the people in their communities. BJR feels it's his purpose, perhaps his defining glory, to crush the spirit and will of a man he couldn't break with 200 lashes. He admires Jamie's physical beauty and lusts after him in a sadistic, sexual way. His work won't be complete, he won't be satisfied, until he breaks Jamie in the most vile way possible. I can't think of a death gruesome enough for BJR, but I would love to see him tormented for eternity in the fiery pits of hell. I am not even going to entertain the GOT/Outlander comparison because IMO, it isn't relevant. I don't like rape or abuse of any kind any more than the next person, but I'm not going to complain about every instance of it when watching shows that are clearly not set in the 21st century and bound to our standards of morality, justice and equality such as they are. Until people reach a level of consciousness that is perfection, there is always going to be despicable treatment towards a group of people from another group of people. We don't seem to be able to rise above it. Having said ALL of that, I am a visual person. I hate it when the decision is made to linger on a reaction shot rather than show me what the hell is going on. So, while people are upset about Jamie's hand being nailed to the table, as was I, it made all the difference in the world for me to actually see it. I don't want to see someone else's reaction, I want to experience my own reaction. Ditto for BJR fondling his shriveled little penis when trying to assault Jenny. That painted all kinds of horrible, sad little pictures of this demon and let me know exactly what kind of sadistic bully we were dealing with.

I rather liked this scene. When she said she was about to explode, I thought she had to pee. It was so appropriate and realistic to see her having to do the "milk thing," reminding us again that she just gave birth a few days ago. I found it charming and so very like Jenny to be unconcerned and natural about it. I was upset that Maggie's food was going to waste. LOL I think Jenny drinking it would have been weird, though. See, I don't know and don't care about this. IMM, Gellis is dead. If somewhere down the line, it's revealed that she's not; fine. If that doesn't happy, I'm still okay with it. As it stands, I'm going with the flow and I'm happy with the way events are unfolding.

You haven't met Lagertha (Vikings). LOL ITA with these observations. Uh, no. For whatever reason, my CC seems really dodgy for this series. Half the time it doesn't work at all and I've never had this problem before. Of course, I did. Jamie is the laird. She is his wife. It stands to reason she would inherit his property. If people are having a problem with this pretty simple concept, I have to wonder what else they're doing while supposedly watching the series because it doesn't require rocket science intelligence. I think the answer to this question was aptly demonstrated in the episode. All throughout history people have coped with the problems they faced with the tools available at the time and did not think they were handicapped because they weren't. Agreed. She looked familiar, but I have no idea where I might have seen her. I watch a lot of stuff with International casts. Huh. I don't care about women breastfeeding their babies, but I don't want to see someone yanking out their tit to feed their baby in my presence. I just don't. It has nothing to do with the activity being "sexualized," it has everything to do with having some propriety and etiquette. If it's done discreetly fine, if not please consider going somewhere with some privacy. Maybe not a popular opinion, but it's mine. *shrugs*

I haven't read the books and don't plan to, but I think non-book readers aren't being given enough credit for understanding things as presented. Maybe there are some who don't, but I'm not one of them. As a lifelong fan of the fantasy genre, I assumed Claire was being pulled toward the stones by the magic within them. I mean come on. She traveled through time. How could she have accomplished this without magic? It was obvious from the beginning that the stone ring was a mystical, powerful place. Such places reveal their magic only to chosen people. I was surprised to learn that Gellis was also a time traveler. I had completely accepted her as a magical creature because the actress herself has such a fey-like quality. I'm not sure why people are having a problem with the way the scene where Jamie leaves Claire alone with the stones is cut. I never for a minute thought that she went forward in time, changed her mind and came back. Who would do that? At least, I wouldn't. I am sold that she is as deeply in love with Jamie as he is with her. And if I had bonded with someone the way she has with Jamie there is no way modern conveniences would trump my heart. And finally, I often wish I lived in a time when the world wasn't so fast-paced and technology driven. We've given up a lot of ourselves living in the time what we are in. Yes, there is a lot of good, but there is also a lot of bad, and we are still fighting a lot of the same injustices that were being fought in the 18th century. Other things I have NO problem with: the pacing as it relates to Claire's choice or Jamie's acceptance of her truth. First off, Claire has been in 1743 for months and months now, and this isn't a period in history where you can take anything for granted. People were superstitious, the church ruled with utmost authority, most were uneducated and politics were deadly. Kings weren't figureheads, and lords (or lairds in this case) were the masters of their domain, women and children were property, and the occupying force could be brutal and were totally dismissive of the people they had invaded, their culture and traditions. Heck, you could die on your way to feeding the chickens. So, if you fell in love with someone, you didn't act as if you had all the time in the world to get on with it, because there was every possibility that you did not. I accept that her emotions for Jamie were heightened by the era she found herself in, but the man himself was no small factor in any of this. The man that Jamie is certainly wooed and won her heart in a way that Frank had not and could not. As for Jamie believing her, no matter what Jamie says about his education, there's a part of him that believes in Old Nick and changeling babies, a person who is already entertaining the supernatural isn't likely to think Claire mad or a liar, especially if he knows and trusts her.

There was a lot going on in this episode and a ton of points to discuss. I was hoping to find some thoughtful discussion and instead find endless posts about the how terrible it was that Jamie spanked Claire (and yes, it was a spanking; a beating leaves someone with bruises and welts) and how unfair the female to male nudity ratio is. Color me disappointed.

What has Orci said about this situation? P.S. Don't watch Hulu. I think Fox tracks them.

Amen. Amen. Amen. I have been an active and supportive fan of many genre shows. There have been times when these shows have disappointed me and/or failed to deliver on the mythology they've promised. But never, EVER, in my entire adult TV viewing life has any show's personnel and power brokers fucked over an audience as blatantly and contemptously as those people (producers, writers, showrunners, executives, whoever the fuck else) behind SH. If I could maim and burn, trust me I would. That's how pissed off I was after this thing went down. Now I'm just shunning everything network television has to offer. Because it's all basically a sack of shit. I've freed myself from Gotham, Empire, OUAT, Quantico, BATB and Reign. If I'm totally bored I may visit the boards to see what people are saying, but as far as me being engaged and tuned in, they can kiss my lovely, round, black ass good bye.

I expressed my feelings towards network television in the episode thread. To that end, this is what I have done to let ABC, Fox, and CW (the only networks airing shows that I watch) what the deal is going forward. I've tweeted said networks and told them that I am dropping the shows I watch (Empire, Gotham, Quantico, OUAT, Reign & BATB). ABC & CW were advised to thank Fox and SH for my missing eyeballs. If Fox won't listen to their viewers, and enough people stop watching other networks and TELLING them WHY, just maybe the television industry (I'm looking at you, Fox and company) will get a clue and stop fucking around. Disrespecting and abusing non-white talent has got to stop. Jerking fans around has got to stop. I realize not everyone will feel the same as I do, but I hope that those who do will take a stand. I've felt jerked around and disrespected as a fan at some time or another by ALL the shows I've mentioned. If they can't be bothered to treat ALL of their talent fairly or to give their viewers quality entertainment, I can't be bothered watching their trifling shows. They all can just fuck off.

Read through the current threads to see how the actress and her character have been mistreated during SH's run, then you'll see it's ridiculous to think she had any input in anything regarding her character.

RUFKM? Have you been reading the trials and tribulations of Nicole Beharie?

*sigh* She should STFU. That would be better than what she's doing. She needs to stay employed? Who is to say that she even has a job on SH now? I'm thinking it's very unlikely. So LG as an actress is pretty much dead to me. She needs to look in a mirror, because honey the industry sees "black." When I hate it's for a GOOD, LONG time.

I didn't make it through the first episode of Lucifer. I've been given the gift of discriminating taste at "the highest caliber," so a foreign accent coupled with TV Land's idea of a hot looking man, isn't enough to draw me in. The actor playing Lucifer is not attractive to me and he was just too over the top in all of his scenes, not to mention how many times are we going to have this particular formula forced on us? No. No. And No. This is the downside of stans who hold a narrow view of the entire landscape. And if that's the position they want to take, I personally don't care and to hell with them. The only thing I will be satisfied with is confirmation of a non-renewal decision where SH is concerned. I like TM, too, but fair is fair. SH's showrunners are the ones SOLELY responsible for this mess. Woe to any TM fan I run across who disparages NB in any way.

It's been 2 days now and I've read countless fan opinions, blogs and articles about the season finale. I've also had time to process what TPTB behind SH have truly done and to understand what I truly feel. I'm heartbroken for Nicole Beharie, for Abbie Mills, for Ichabbie, and even for Tom Mison (albeit at a lesser extent). I think I'm at the point where I no longer want to invest myself in any more television shows or their characters because for whatever reason, things never turn out right. I've championed Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Beauty and the Beast, Reign, Robin Hood (BBC series), Supernatural, and many more over the years, only to see the showrunners and writers destroy the magic and charm of each series either through mishandling the power couples, ridiculous s/l choices, retooling, or all of the above. But Sleepy Hollow is the straw that broke the camel's back. What they've done is unforgivable and inexcusable. They've changed the entire footprint of the show. It cannot go on with one Witness looking for the re-born soul of a fallen comrade. That's not the way the story was introduced. This is not Supernatural with all its crazy rules and resurrections. This isn't "one Slayer falls, the next one is called." This is utter bullshit and if they think the viewers who have stuck with them through S2 and now THIS will continue to watch they are INSANE. They've played their last nasty little card. And I will NEVER, EVER forgive them for the blatant ship-baiting (which was obviously only engaged in to carry them through for ratings to a finale that no one wanted). Abbie is irreplaceable. The bond between Crane and his Lieutenant cannot be duplicated. And I have no interest in this new directive. I guess now I can spend my leisure time pursuing interests that will no longer frustrate or anger me, that will actually yield the desired results with satisfaction. The TV world is a dark, cruel, unimaginative place for everyone who participates, and this former fan (and viewer) has finally had enough.

I totally agree with your assessment and said as much in another thread. Don't expect to see any of the current cast except TM next year. I have thoroughly enjoyed TM's work in SH, but I won't watch him w/o Abbie. I just won't. Also, Crane & Abbie are canon in my book and always will be. I'm not letting those sorry motherfuckers (and I almost NEVER use that word) rain on my parade. They can all BURN. IN. HELL.

Don't forget the dramatic eye makeup and false lashes. LOL But I DID like the show, it made me cry a lot.

The more I hear about the [probable] unfair treatment of Nicole, the sadder I get. White men always get preferential treatment when it comes to money, job perks and professional status. I hate that women are always getting the short end of the stick and that black women get even a shorter stick. I wish Nicole well. I hope she finds a better gig soon and thank her for her hard work, dedication and professionalism in regards to SH. The only thing that would make me feel a little bit better is if I knew that TM went to bat for her or tried to. Guess he didn't or we'll never know. Fox, CC, MRM and the rest can go to hell.

Additional thoughts... I know SH's writers are basically no-talent hacks, but if they can't come up with anything more original than passing Abbie's eternal soul on to Sophie or Jenny, they really will deserve to be cancelled after the series premiere. Good things about this episode: I got to see HH's red-eyed steed again. I didn't have to see any Danny bullshit. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a whole new cast (more white people) if renewed. Apparently, the only person safe is Tom Mison, and he's negotiated a reduced work schedule, so who knows how often Ichabod Crane will actually show up?