SueB

Season 9 released 9 Sept. http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Supernatural-Season-9/19915#ixzz34ObLOqoz I most looking forward to the "Bound By Blood" feature and the Blade Runners/Mother's Little Helper commentary.

That's awesome awesome. Sorry, someone has to make that joke. I volunteer. I've come to declare UNCLE. Internet wins. I can't keep up with my boards, twitter, and tumblr while on a fantastic holiday in Britain. So... I hope nothing truly fabulous explodes for another 10 days because I just can't keep up!

Wow, it must have been really bad. I imagine at the end of an intense season they just get a bit punchy.

I think i misseda day butthis is my Thursday In My Time Of Dying ++ All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 ++ Roadkill -- 31- What Is and Never Should Be 27 - In My Time of Dying 27- All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 25 - Tall Tales 23 - Hollywood Babylon 23 - Born Under a Bad Sign 23 - Crossroad Blues 21 - Nightshifter 19 - Folsom Prison Blues 17 - The Usual Suspects 15 - Hunted 15 - Bloodlust 15 - Croatoan 15 - Playthings 15 - Houses of the Holy 15 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1 13 - Everybody Loves a Clown 13- Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things 11 - Simon Said 09 -Roadkill 09- Heart 03 - No Exit

Exactly. It's the spot-on sibling vibe that I loved then and now when it's not painful. Excellent point about reason for no planes. And Jensen brings the comedy here. I also liked the way Dean just shifted lies so smoothly when trying to talk the stewardess away from flying.

Thanks amazinglybored for figuring that out. Thanks /sarcasm, meretensia for putting THAT conundrum in my head. I'll go back to blissful ignorance now! J/k I love this episode. Here's why - Insight into Dean beyond skirt-chaser. And while it's an overused trope, I thought it was well played. And actually fit the established backstory and character development. - A very good horror story that had me watching thru my fingers. - Bro-bonding - The physicality of the two leads. Tearing down the dock and jumping in. A simple yet effective scene that establishes them as heroes. They showed a natural instinct for doing right. It offsets a lot of their bad habits. This was the episode that kept me hooked. It used the character's own back stories to inform both the weekly plot and provide more meat on the bones of who they are. And yes, kudos to Kim Manners directing.

++ What Is and Never Should Be ++ All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 ++ In My Time of Dying 25 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 25 - What Is and Never Should Be 23 - In My Time of Dying 21 - Born Under a Bad Sign 19 -Hollywood Babylon 19 - Nightshifter 19 - Tall Tales 19 - Crossroad Blues 17 - Everybody Loves a Clown 17 - Hunted 15 - Bloodlust 15 - Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things 15 - Simon Said 15 - The Usual Suspects 15 - Croatoan 15 - Playthings 15 - Houses of the Holy 15 - Folsom Prison Blues 15 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1 11 -Roadkill 09 - Heart 07 - No Exit

Good rule. I concur.

shifted timezones by a LOT today. So... I know I haven't voted on Sunday in whatever Sunday I'm at... so voting for Sunday (even if it's technically past midnight in London right now). ++ In My Time of Dying ++ All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 -- Roadkill 21 - What Is and Never Should Be 21 - In My Time of Dying 21 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 19 -Hollywood Babylon 19 - Nightshifter 19 - Born Under a Bad Sign 17 - Tall Tales 17 -Hollywood Babylon 17 - Crossroad Blues 15 - Everybody Loves a Clown 15 - Bloodlust 15 - Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things 15 - Simon Said 15 - The Usual Suspects 15 - Croatoan 15 - Hunted 15 - Playthings 15 - Houses of the Holy 15 - Folsom Prison Blues 15 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1 11 -Roadkill 11 - Heart 09 - No Exit

Hey! Peanut M&Ms ARE a valid food choice! I think they are the perfect hiking snack. I like the Wendigo backstory and wish we'd see another one. LOVED the mission statement in this episode and loved how they used this second episode to establish the show format. I like Gina Holden and thought she had just the right blend is competency/sincerity and sass.

I started to copy comments to say "I agree" and then it was like the whole list of comments. So, I'll stick with this one. The brother dynamic was SPOT on. And Jared looks like a BABY! Oh my. So cute.

Fixed it.

Ah...you beat me by an hour. Sorry you had to do the labor. THANKS. But first... a moment of praise for the S1 final two: Pilot -- 10 freaking years. Yeah, you deserve it. This was an awesome premise that set up two fascinating characters, classic horror tales, overarching mytharc, all withiin the context of Middle America, Classic Rock and the awesome Impala. I was captured by both and the brotherly dynamic right from the start. You WIN. Scarecrow - the obvious runner up for it's combination of outstanding horror, expansion of the mythos, some of the best dialog of the series, brother angst/bonding, and PIE. ***Looks at S2 List*** We've got work to do ++ In My Time Of Dying ++ All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 ++ Crossroad Blues 19 - In My Time of Dying 17 - Tall Tales 17 -Hollywood Babylon 17 - Crossroad Blues 17 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 2 15 - Everybody Loves a Clown 15 - Bloodlust 15 - Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things 15 - Simon Said 15 - The Usual Suspects 15 - Croatoan 15 - Hunted 15 - Playthings 15 - Nightshifter 15 - Houses of the Holy 15 - Born Under a Bad Sign 15 -Roadkill 15 - Folsom Prison Blues 15 - What Is and Never Should Be 15 - All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1 13 - Heart 11 - No Exit

Let's see if 7kstar and tinyurl weigh in.

Proposal: With only a few of us playing, it seems to me the answer is a foregone conclusion: The Pilot is going to win and Scarecrow is second. How about we just declare Pilot the winner, Scarecrow as runner up and move on to S2? Pilot -- Scarecrow + 47 - Pilot 38 - Scarecrow GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow Phantom Traveler Devil's Trap Skin Dead in the Water The Benders Something Wicked Faith

Pilot -- Scarecrow + 50 - Pilot 38 - Scarecrow GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow Phantom Traveler Devil's Trap Skin Dead in the Water The Benders Something Wicked Faith

Pilot -- Scarecrow + 50 - Pilot 44 - Scarecrow GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow Phantom Traveler Devil's Trap Skin Dead in the Water The Benders Something Wicked Faith

Salute to two greats: Something Wicked - Dean's damage, John's parenting style, Sam's insight Faith - to me this was THE episode that kicked off the depth of the metaphysical this show would reach. Plus it had that kickass "Don't Fear The Reaper" montage. Truly a memorable episode. In my top 10 for the series for sure. -- Pilot + Scarecrow Note: I reserve the right to change my opinion randomly as these two are too close to call. Tonight's vote is in favor of the "classic" nature of Scarecrow vs the exposition in Pilot. 52 - Pilot 46 - Scarecrow GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow Phantom Traveler Devil's Trap Skin Dead in the Water The Benders Something Wicked Faith

A moment of silence for The Benders ..well, SOMETHING had to go. But I've come to praise the episode, not just to bury it. The Benders was truly an excellent episode. The kickass sheriff, the jar of teeth, Dean retracting his "eat me", and of course the best line: "Demons I get, people are crazy." Something Wicked -- Faith + The Benders -- 54 - Pilot 51 - Scarecrow 05 - Faith 01 - Something Wicked GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow Phantom Traveler Devil's Trap Skin Dead in the Water The Benders

+Faith -- Something Wicked -- Benders 53 - Pilot 49 - Scarecrow 07 - Something Wicked 07 - Faith 02 - Dead in the Water 01- The Benders GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow Phantom Traveler Devil's Trap Skin

-- The Benders + Faith -- Something Wicked 52 - Pilot 49 - Scarecrow 11 - Something Wicked 08 - Faith 06- The Benders 03 - Dead in the Water GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow Phantom Traveler Devil's Trap Skin

Brought over from the Unpopular Opinion Thread: DISCLAIMER: If I make a generalizing statement and failed to put a "IMO" in there, please presume it's there. This is all opinion and interpretation, there are very few unambiguous facts. I'm not trying to state opinion as fact and it's an error on my part if it appears that way. Re-looking at Sam's dark-arc in light of Dean's MoC arc, I find much more empathy for Sam and I'm kinda pissed at the writers/Kripke for failing to pull off Sam's arc in S4 with as much empathy (IMO) as they are Dean's in S9. What I think are the pertinent character building blocks for Sam before and during S4: - Sam's biggest fear is being the "freak". Demon blood in his system, Mom and Jessica die because YED wanted Sam to do evil things. - History of outsider status, low-income Salvation Army clothing kinda life. Dad praises him for killing skills that he doens't really like (so he doesn't fit in with the Family Business). - Good at school, positive feedback and admiration for his intellect from externals (Jess, teachers, society). - Daddy issues: doesn't want to be what Dad wants him to be, doesn't respect Dad's choices (like not showing up for Christmas). Feels second priority to Dad's need for revenge. - Despite being unable to stay in a room for 5 mins without a fight; he internalized John's revenge-motivation (certainly a helluva lot more than Dean) -Cared for by his older brother his entire life, rides shotgun to his brother (literally and virtually for most things) - Traumatized by loss of his mother, loss of Jess, loss of Father, loss of Dean. REALLY traumatized IMO by seeing Dean die 100+ times. Went RoboHunter to reverse Mystery Spot (I contend this is the turning point for Sam in terms of feeling like he HAS to save Dean, that Dean needs saving). Building blocks for Dean's S9 dark arc: - Worth comes from "Saving People, Hunting Things, The Family Business." - Always showed stress relief from a little violence (smashing the car in S2E2, saw to the vampneck S2 Bloodlust, excited about a zombie hunt S3, etc...) - Tortured for 30 years, started torturing in Hell for 10 years -- and got relief/pleasure from it - Admitted to Veritas that what he's good for is slicing throats, told Ben he was not good enough to sit at their dinner table - Felt "pure" in Purgatory at a RoboHunter - Taking the lead in torture since S1 Now look at the parallel plot points of S4/S9 for Sam and Dean: - S4 Sam starts out wanting Lillith's head on a plate - bloody but once the Angel's reveal that Dean has to stop the Apocalypse SOMEHOW; he also has the threat of Dean at risk AGAIN as he takes on a power much stronger than himself. So as S4 progresses Sam has not only the revenge motivation but protect Dean motivation. -S9 Dean starts off with Sam near death and a shitty option to save his life. So Dean TAKES the shitty deal because he thinks it's not Sam's time to die nor is it "in him" to let him die. - S4, driven by Revenge (thank you Daddy John!) and grief, he starts working on his powers and drinking demon blood. Key audience point: we don't KNOW about the addiction until EP16. We seen some of Ruby's manipulations but not all. By that time, Sam has already pissed many off. But between EP4 and EP12, Sam is on the wagon. He gives up using his powers because the events in Metamorphosis convince him he's on a slippery slope. - S9. driven by grief and loss, takes on the Mark of Cain without asking about the consequences. Key audience point: we've SEEN Dean lose contact with Cas, the death of Kevin, and rift with Sam. We've SEEN Crowley saying that people die around him get translated by Dean that he is "poison". For taking away Sam's agency and failing to warn Kevin, we should be pissed at Dean. But I know I am not. I saw Dean struggle with his decisions. I saw him motivated by love. I know Crowley is feeding his fears and manipulating him. - S4: Sam drops his powers/blood drinking up until EP12. But it's in EP12 that I think Kripke and company drop the ball. They wanted the demon blood addiction to be a big reveal later. So we have a short scene with Ruby suddenly dropping by for 2 minutes to remind Sam that the world is ending and he's the only one who can stop it. We get the hint that it's more than the psychic powers that he's playing with and that it's something he 'enjoys' but shouldn't (easy misdirect to sex w/ Ruby but also kicks off the 'what is it' mystery). Now Sam rejects Ruby when she shows up but WE DON'T KNOW that this is his junkie enticing him to another hit. We just see her appealing to his ego. What's worse, we never hear Sam talk about Dean being damaged by Hell and yet later on we find out that is a motivation. It's in THIS episode that Kripke & Company fail us. There's a second key conversation where Dean demonstrates complete confidence of dying young and bloody. That he has no desire to grow old. Sam tries to lobby for hope and repeats a veiled argument that Ruby gave him. Sam is looking to SAVE DEAN from Dean's self-appointed wretched life. Worse, Dean thinks he's talking about the eternal monster mash while Sam is working the Apocalypse. They talk past each other and I think Sam leaves the conversation thinking that Dean just doesn't want to live. But if you look back at the events of EP6-11, Sam has also seen Dean is a seriously damaged person post Hell. And THIS is what Kripke should have brought out. This kinda crappy episode (Criss Angel is a Douchebag) is the turning point in the Sam dark arc and WE DON'T SEE WHY. All we needed was a phone call b/w Sam and Bobby where Sam is talking about Dean being emotionally shaky and not ready for what the Angels have planned for him. All he had to say is that 'Dean told me he remembers Hell and it's bad Bobby. i think Dean will let the Angels get him killed because he's pretty messed up by what happens." It doesn't matter if we even hear a platitude from Bobby. We just needed to know that Sam was not simply motivated by his addiction or the need for power. THIS is where the empathy could have been so easily garnered and it not achieved. Instead we get Sam calling Ruby at the end and saying "I'm in". We don't know how big of a step this is. Even worse, he states that his motivation is "I don't want to be doing this when I'm an old man." What the hell? Not good enough. They should have been more on the nose to parallel the Jay/Charlie problem: "I'm not going to ignore a gift, even if it's dangerous, because there's too much at stake." They made Sam's motivation seem selfish when it was really more altruistic. Personally I think Kripke was trying to be edgy and make us question Sam's motivation. S9: Conversely we NEVER question Dean's motivation. They don't play coy with what is going on. We see Dean starting to crawl back into the bottle. First Born is immediately after the grief-filled Holy Terror where we devoted the entire teaser to Dean's unspoken grief. We hear his heartbreak in his confessions to Cas, we see him unable to watch 'Sam' be tortured, and we see him declare himself "poison" plus destined to go to Hell for what happened with Kevin. Holy Terror leaves us with a completely gutted Dean so his motivation to do ANYTHING in First Born is a natural fall-out. It's Dean 101. Now Dean's empathy also benefits from 5 more years of character development but even without that, the writing is TRANSPARENT. So Dean gets empathy for doing an incredibly stupid thing. He took on the Mark of Freaking Cain. A Mark given to Cain by Lucifer. He's blatantly playing with supernatural forces sourced from EVIL. Dumb dumb dumb. And yet we feel for him. His altruistic goal of killing Abaddon seems worthy. And we're so thrilled he's getting some mytharc. But really, Dean is just reckless here and yet we are empathetic. I know I am at least. S4: Sam becomes a rage monster and it pisses us off because he's raging at a PTSD Dean who doesn't seem to deserve it. At first (for example the horrible rant in Siren) we don't know that the junkie situation is affecting him. Later he's so far gone that no matter what Dean tries, the physical changes are overpowering (recall him flying around the Safe Room). Plus Zachariah sends a false message that pushes him further over the edge. While we see that trick, in general it just looks like Sam got snared by the demon blood and lust for power. We can be somewhat sympathetic but with Dean fighting him every step of the way, it's hard to not see him as undone by arrogance. S9: Dean tells Sam about the Mark right away.. He doesn't tell him about the hyped up activity but he doesn't hide things. Which is more sympathetic. They have this on-going fight which has Sam saying something horrible. Sympathy for Dean. Even though Dean did something horrible to Dean, it's Sam who makes the most hurtful statements in The Purge -- so we have less sympathy with Sam when Dean is douchey to him. Sam talks Dean down when he first kills with the Blade and Dean looks scared. Dean demonstrates fear of what the Blade is doing to him multiple times, even though he doesn't express it to Sam. But we see Dean's POV. Sympathy again. By the time he's in full douchebag mode, we KNOW it's the Blade amping up his feelings. We worry, we are not pissed. In short - we are with Dean every step of the way of his DarkArc versus the intentional mystery of Sam's downfall. So we sympathize more with Dean in S9 than Sam in S4. At the 50,000 ft level both are going down a dark path that has some altruistic justification but exploits inner darkness (desire for control, desire to hurt). The approach they took with Sam was far less sympathetic than the approach they've taken with Dean IMO.

AMEN. I'm doing a S4 rewatch with another site and they really do Sam a disservice. Seeing S4 Sam through the eyes of the S9 Dean arc, my heart just breaks for Sam. Short short version: - I think Sam rationalizes going this path at the start out of pain and revenge (so VERY John-like) - He drops Ruby for a while when he sees the slippery slope out of Metamorphis- - I think he got back on the bad path at the end of Criss Angel is a Douchebag because of many reasons but protecting Dean is actually one of them - His asshole rant under the Siren's influence feels real but the audience doesn't know about the junkie issue (whereas we saw Dean with the MoC influence) - While Dean's personal weakness is enjoying killing things, Sam's is enjoying power. BOTH are dark but Dean's is built up more understandably than Sams. And I'll take the longer version to the All Seasons equivalent. I adore Sam. I don't think liking him is an unpopular opinion but do agree that the writing has not supported Sam empathy as well as Dean since S4. On paper the plots are VERY pro-Sam, at the tactical level they are not accomplishing what I think they could/should and thus open Sam up to more criticism than warranted IMO.

-- The Benders + Faith -- Something Wicked 52 - Pilot 48 - Scarecrow 12 - Something Wicked 11 - Faith 10- The Benders 05 - Dead in the Water GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow Phantom Traveler Devil's Trap Skin

Over Dean's dead body is my guess. Just sayin'. I think Dean walked into town in Mother's Little Helper.