SueB

Thinking some more on the season opening montage, they foreshadowed the major theme of the season big time. We ended S8 with 'hugging it out in a church' but it wasn't really resolved. So S9 just broke apart the Winchesters and put the brotherly love into question. No wonder it ended in complete disaster. Makes me REALLY curious for what happens in the S10 opening montage.

-- Something Wicked -- The Benders + Faith 52 - Pilot 49 - Scarecrow 16 - Faith 15 - Something Wicked 12 - The Benders 09 - Dead in the Water GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow Phantom Traveler Devil's Trap Skin

I rewatched. The Dean at the start of this season versus the Dean at the end is a shocking difference. And it's so telling that the voiceover from Charlie is that there is nothing the Winchesters can't do when they work together. Combined with "Who Do You Love" as the song. ANVILS! I think Crowley stinking it up in that trunk is when he started planning revenge.

Oh I think there are plenty of good ways to spin it ultimately that has Dean rising from the ashes. On culpability -- well how culpable are souls that are ultimately tortured into a demon? Since most earned themselves a ticket to Hell, getting turned into a demon is a byproduct so they kinda own it. But not all demons are mindless evil. Meg seemed to be capable of true loyalty (to Lucifer but ... work with me). And then she made her cause Team Free Will. Mostly because they were simultaneously Team Screw Crowley. But still... some demons seem capable of some agency. And Cain clearly was seeking forgiveness for his past acts. So does Dean DESERVE to be turned into a demon? Well he took on the Mark of Cain, which was given to Cain by Lucifer. Dude was playing with fire. Period. He did it for the right reasons but road to hell is paved with them. But Dean's heart was still good. He wasn't trying for power for power's sake. So...even though he got burned by the fire that he played with (the Mark), doesn't mean he can't be saved from it ultimately. So, once again, it's Dean's unique strength of character IMO that will ultimately serve him. He KNOWS right from wrong. Unerringly most of the time. What he lacks is faith in his own worthiness. That's the journey he needs to go on. To BELIEVE he deserves to be saved. I would love that if that was the outcome of this story. ACK! You caught me speculating. No promises that the writers are remotely thinking of this.

As Morrigan2575 said, he's not possessed, he BECAME a demon as is a different breed like Cain. In First Born when Dean asked Crowley, "what do you mean he 'became' a demon", Crowley cleverly changed the subject from HOW he became a demon to how deadly he was (the omission he was referring to in 9.23) . He's no longer human, he's a different species. He has retained the same corporeal form with the Mark branded into him. And that is about all the "facts" we have. Even if we didn't have the occasional LOLcanon issue, they made Cain's original story so very very vague that they can go in a hundred different directions. Plus Dean's circumstances are not the exact same as Cain's. Differences: - Cain made a DEAL. He agreed to go to Hell if Abel could go to Heaven. Dean agreed to take on the Mark to kill Abaddon. He blatantly did NOT want to know the consequences but he didn't actually sign away his soul. I think that's important. - Cain murdered Abel. Dean didn't murder an innocent (although I still think the #Thinman kill was close because he could have chosen to capture vs kill, it wasn't with the Blade). - Cain committed suicide. Dean was murdered. Now Dean certainly entered into the confrontation w/ Metatron like a man on a suicide mission BUT even beatedn bloody he was still grabbing the blade to try and kill Metatron. When it comes to matters of the soul, I really think the show has been consistent that intent matters. Dean was considered the Righteous Man in hell, even though he sold his soul. God granted Dean Salvation (per Joshua) even after the torture. So, the 64000 question is the state of Dean's soul IMO? Lilith, Azazel, Allastair, Crowley, Abaddon, etc.. were are standard issue demons of greater power. I say "standard issue" because they smoked out. They had to have a meat suit to be corporeal. Their soul was twisted in Hell to become demons whose form appears as black/red smoke. My speculation: Dean's soul, like Cain's was more "infected" than "twisted". The Mark, to use the oft-referenced drug analogy, pumped killer poison into their veins. This "poison" was metaphysical. It has both a physical element and a supernatural element. The physical side effects were obvious, the supernatural element was ... PERHAPS... a poisoning of the metaphysical soul. As I stated earlier... they can go in a 100 directions w/ Dean at this point. Maybe he's rabid to start off with and then gets control? Maybe he's "Dean" unchained right from the start. Maybe he's a Crowley puppet at the beginning. IDK. They'll go for the most drama, the most heart-rending, and most shocking approach they can think of I suspect.

Great. Now THAT earworm is going to be with me for ETERNITY. Arrrrrrgggggg!

Back from a three-day vacation...A moment of silence for "Skin". It had a fantastic start and kickass twists... OTOH, I have permanent mental teeth trauma from seeing this episode it so it eventually had to be killed off IMO.... Pilot -- Faith + Something Wicked -- 51 - Pilot 50 - Scarecrow 20 - Faith 18 - Something Wicked 16 - The Benders 13 - Dead in the Water GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow Phantom Traveler Devil's Trap Skin

I think this is right. Thinky thoughts based on another watching: - I find Crowley incredibly fascinating right now. Moose HATES him at this point. While Dean is obviously willing to work with him. But he didn't take too kindly to being treated like demon minion #3. And does being "Winchestered" mean that you are always a second class citizen to Sam and Dean if you are not Sam or Dean? In which case -- I want him to commiserate with Castiel who was thrown out of the bunker in 9.03. Anyway, I've read theories about how turning Dean into a demon was a long con by Crowley for revenge. That he views Dean as a version of trainable hellhound-like weapon. I'm not sure I buy that. I've always found Crowley to be honest in his dishonesty. He will absolutely exploit loopholes (just for the hell of it) but generally sticks to his agreements. They've really emphasized that this year. So the loophole with the Mark was 1) not telling Dean he played him to get the Mark in the first place, and 2) failing to mention precisely how and why Cain became a demon. But when he said he didn't know how it was going to turn out --- I believed him. - Which leads me to 'What was it about not eating the Cheeseburger that let Crowley believe Dean would resurrect as a demon?' He knew Dean was yakking due to MoC influence. Was it because Dean should have been hungry and his body was transforming away from needing food? IDK. But there's something there. He also 'suspected' when Dean summoned him. Was it because Dean summoned him or the yak smell when he got in the room? Yak smell implied physical transformation. Just the choice to summon Crowley implies something to do with volition. So if the hope Crowley got was due to Dean's choice, then what did not eating the Cheeseburger mean? That Dean was single minded (NOT a news flash)? I'd appreciate any thoughts on this conundrum; did Crowley suspect Dean would resurrect "demon" due to the choices Dean was making or the physical transformation Crowley was witnessing?

This one is pretty hard to miss though. If Dean is anything but a cold corpse, he's going to have to explain being alive. Sure, he could say "suddenly resurrected by Mark of Cain" but will he have to avoid Devil's Traps? I could see many things NOT working like they didn't against Alastair or YED. But the Devil's trap bullet worked on Abaddon and Crowley. So... hiding demon-ness in a completely warded bunker seems improbable. Like, could he even get back in unescorted once he left?

+ Faith -- Skin -- Something Wicked 50 - Pilot 49 - Scarecrow 27 - Faith 24 - Dead in the Water 24 - Something Wicked 17 - The Benders 05 - Skin GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow Phantom Traveler Devil's Trap

Yep. Black Eyed Boy. *sigh* To say they can go in a dozen different directions is an understatement. I've come to learn that speculation without any spoilers just sets up misalighed expectations so I'll wait for S10 hints before speculating.

-- Something Wicked + Faith -- Skin 49 - Scarecrow 49 - Pilot 25 - Dead in the Water 25 - Faith 22 - Something Wicked 17 - The Benders 11 - Skin GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow Phantom Traveler Devil's Trap

Posted my rewatch commentary at TWOP and just can't bring myself to repeat it again: http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/topic/3220871-9-23-do-you-believe-in-miracles-20140520/?p=16534756 warning; long and emotional ETA: This is the link Pete gave to the Dean/Family song. http://eroticplums.tumblr.com/post/86368244684/this-is-deans-theme-the-song-they-played-during Play at own risk.

This. It'll be okay. I'm really curious to see how "Dean" is "Dean". He was so utterly AWESOMELY Dean at the end. ETA LOVED the ep. More commentary post rewatch.

You tell 'em. Hee. I totally understand.

Fair.

Final shoe fell into place for me after listening to Women of Letter's podcast. They mentioned a spoiler that Jared got Jensen's shoulder wet from crying. In fact, I feel like this is so close that I'm keeping this spec under a spoiler tag. So if using a spoiler tag in the spoiler thread is a no-no, I'll delete it: But the WoL podcast led me in a direction both surprising and yet obvious:

Faith + Skin -- Something Wicked -- 47 - Scarecrow 47 - Pilot 28 - Dead in the Water 27 - Faith 25 - Something Wicked 16 - The Benders 14 - Skin GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow Phantom Traveler Devil's Trap

Important safety tip. I agree. :) Since Jensen said "twist" and "shocked" in that TV fanatic interview (thanks for that BTW!), I think we'll be surprised. He's not prone to hype in general. Although the "eye's open" (different interview) seems like a COMPLETE spoiler. And Jared's emphasis on long-lasting? I'm still giving 10 to 1 odds: Demon Dean.

I think Dean is speculating. On the other hand, he KNEW he'd kill Abaddon so maybe there is something in his mojo that gives him a sense of these things. Obviously it kills Reaper-class Angels and injured Gadreel. Little bits I picked up from finally getting to do a proper rewatch: - Dean turns away when Tessa impales herself. He looked straight into Zacharia's eyes OTOH when he stabbed him thru the neck. To me, that doesn't mean she shed a more powerful light but that he didn't want the kill. Of course, whether or not he wanted the kill, he still has a killgasm. (THERE, I said it, you ALL were thinking it.... Dean has a kill-gasm when the blade dumps whatever pleasure-mojo it dumps into his system. Someone even pointed out he licks his LIPS at the end. As in... tasty). That's like 6 kinds of wrong and 6 kinds of hot. - Sam was coming back into the room and spotted Gadreel. So while I was unhappy he walked away from Dean (because it seemed a wee bit childish), upon reflection I think he walked away to figure out what Dean said (because he can't just take anything at face value now that he knows about the Mark's effect) and dump his stuff in his room. Then he came back to continue working. Whether or not he was going to argue the topic or discuss with Cas later we don't know because Gadreel showed up. - Jesus Christ Superstar was the musical Tessa was going to torch. I kind thought those tunes were catchy... yeesh, Tessa...harsh. I wonder if Death is not bothering fixing this mess this time because he's done cleaning up "Team Free Will" messes. I can see him not having much tolerance there.

I'm just going to try (note, it's unlikely I'll live up to this) and NOT get to far into speculation land over the summer because you are right --- they surprise us everytime. Personally I LIKED the start of S8 and just wish we had more Purgatory flashbacks. But I totally get MMV. I fully expect S9 to end DARK.

Faith + Something Wicked -- The Benders -- 46 - Scarecrow 45 - Pilot 28 - Faith 27 - Dead in the Water 26 - Something Wicked 18 - Skin 15 - The Benders 02 - Devil's Trap GANKED: Route 666 Bugs Provenance Dead Man's Blood Hook Man Nightmare Asylum Wendigo Hell House Bloody Mary Home Salvation Shadow Phantom Traveler

Finally finale pics:http://www.hypable.com/2014/05/16/supernatural-season-9-finale-synopsis-stills-clip/ So, it looks like Gadreel DOES live (given he's standing and talking to Cas and Sam after they find him). Odd. Dean looks so LOST sitting on that floor. And it looks like more Buddy Road Trip fun for Dean and Crowley.

I'm not sure they know how much we've speculated on a Demon Dean. So, the first time you hear a concept wouldn't it be way more cool than if you'd been speculating on it for weeks? Mabe were just more prepared than they know?

Jensen Ackles video interview by IGS from CW upfronts http://m.ign.com/videos/2014/05/16/supernatural-jensen-ackles-on-season-9s-finale-and-season-10 "EYE OPENER". At this point I'm giving 10 to 1 odds on a black eyed Demon Dean.