S06.E09: Jennings, Elizabeth

[anonymiss]

14 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

In the late 1960s through the 1970s helicopter parenting would have drastically and wildly out of place and out of character for who they were supposed to be. They didn't want to be the talk of the neighborhood or the PTA. They wanted to be as close to invisible and unremarked upon as possible.  

Absolutely. Their choices within the home, though, have always surprised and impressed upon me that they are loving, warm, and permissive parents. Their voices are heard and respected, even if doing wrong like when P scolded Paige for skipping school and lying about it. He apologized for his rare outburst. She has been raised wjth a freedom to be insolent, reflected in her adult behavior when given any criticism. 

[Cardie]

42 minutes ago, anonymiss said:

Yup. But there is middle ground as well as more structured but still "American" well-to-do parenting styles (like helicoptor parenting) that drives kids to perform or to the Ivy leagues like where Henry seems a good fit for. 

I'm a Baby Boomer and our lives as kids were quite unstructured. As long as I wasn't leaving our cul de sac, my parents let me out on non-school mornings and expected me back for supper.  If they wanted to know where I was, they scanned the various porches to see where my dog was sleeping. But Paige and Henry are Gen Xers, a group who, broadly, had two working parents or were kids of divorce, lamented as "latch-key kids." Their special circumstances make the Jennings siblings this to an extreme degree. Again, broadly, helicopter parenting arose when those Gen X parents wanted to be far more involved in their kids' lives than their "neglectful" Boomer parents were. Plus, helicopter parenting really only becomes possible with the advent of cell phones and other tracking/surveillance technology for personal use.

[anonymiss]

5 minutes ago, Cardie said:

I'm a Baby Boomer and our lives as kids were quite unstructured. As long as I wasn't leaving our cul de sac, my parents let me out on non-school mornings and expected me back for supper.  If they wanted to know where I was, they scanned the various porches to see where my dog was sleeping. But Paige and Henry are Gen Xers, a group who, broadly, had two working parents or were kids of divorce, lamented as "latch-key kids." Their special circumstances make the Jennings siblings this to an extreme degree. Again, broadly, helicopter parenting arose when those Gen X parents wanted to be far more involved in their kids' lives than their "neglectful" Boomer parents were. Plus, helicopter parenting really only becomes possible with the advent of cell phones and other tracking/surveillance technology for personal use.

Yeah the term is anachronistic but the parenting style would have had an equivalent even then. Maybe as keeners or overachievers.

[Trillian]

20 hours ago, Umbelina said:

One thing kind of made me laugh.  The old joke was that you could always spot FBI agents by their shiny black shoes.  Both of the guys who chased Philip were wearing bright white running shoes.

It doesn't mean anything, it's just something I just noticed that kind of brought back old memories.

Umbellina, I would love to know what old memories you have of being chased by FBI agents in shiny black shoes. 

On second, thought, maybe I don’t want to know. 

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Here is the thing about Paige.  Every time she has gone to her parents with something they have shut her down harshly.  Forget her lack of insight o am going to disagree with a lot of you on that and I really don’t want to ruin the last episode with a fight.

 

 This is where I disagree with a lot of people. Paige isn’t stupid.  She might be nieve but that is in large part because even though Elizabeth says she is training her she is doing a half assed job at it and every time Paige shows any interest or initiative she shit down.....harshly.  

 

Paige really has not been shut down harshly whenever she shows interest or initiative. In fact, to me it seems like characterizing it like that points to the bigger problem, which is that Paige often acts like she has been and Elizabeth doesn't disabuse her of this notion.

Paige has been shut down when she suggests something her parents, whose lives are on the line here, think is a bad idea. Sometimes she does it anyway. For instance, when she read Pastor Tim's diary Elizabeth said no, don't do that. She didn't want her to get caught. But she also praised her courage for wanting to do it. That's hardly shutting her down harshly and Paige wound up doing it anyway. Other times they've compromised or given in when she protested.

Elizabeth is doing a bad job training her but not because she doesn't encourage her initiative. Paige doesn't need initiative at this point. Elizabeth was speaking the truth when she said that anyone else who had done some of the things that Paige has done would have been fired long ago. Elizabeth coddles her both by being dishonest (unfair to Paige) and showing nepotism (unfair to others and ultimately Paige too).

Where this gets to the heart of the problem, imo, is the idea that Paige should be expecting this kind of thing. Paige expects it because it's the default of her life given her upbringing--to her the problem is invisible. She can't see it. Elizabeth is denying it, not addressing it or fixing it. This expectation that Paige's initiative or interest matters, that she should be mentored as an individual like Henry with his math teacher. That her feelings and personal growth matter.

But this is the KGB, not an after school program. Philip and Elizabeth never had any such expectation as recruits. If they were never shut down it's because it would never occur to them to offer opinions or demand explanations as novices. Their individual experience didn't matter.

For instance, all of this:

Quote

 I think if she has gone to Claudia instead it works have been turned into a teachable moment and not shit down completely.  “Yes go to Pastor T’s House and practice reading his diary and plant this bug in his office and we will listen to it together”.  “Yes seduce that boy and this is how you do it without getting your feelings involved.”  “Awesome fighting technique taking down those two frat boys but maybe next time let them get in some punches so no one gets suspicious.”

reads to me like a parody of 21st century self-esteem based American parenting--completely anathema to Claudia. Taking the fight as an example, this is how you talk to a teenager you're afraid of, a teenager you want to consider you a friend. Claudia responded to Gabriel's story of arresting his friend during the Purge with "boo hoo." I doubt she'd be desperately searching for things to praise Paige for every time she made a huge mistake. Paige would never be praised for her fighting technique by any KGB officer in this instance. She should not be letting anyone see her throw a punch AT ALL. She should not be letting anyone see her take a punch AT ALL. Certainly not because she was mad. That wouldn't be communicated as a gentle, apologetic suggestion, it would be the whole message. Even most American adults don't expect this kind of hand-holding in the workplace and they're not doing this kind of dangerous work.

This is central to the problem--Paige and Elizabeth trying to have it both ways where Elizabeth gets to protect her image and Paige gets to still be the American teenager she always was where her feelings matter to everyone, including the KGB, an organization that wouldn't think twice about having her shot if she became too much of a problem. (Claudia certainly wouldn't.) As the parent and the officer Elizabeth is the one who should have put a stop to it. Paige had to step in and do it for her here. And she did it not as a trainee or someone loyal to the Cause who'd been betrayed (like Elizabeth and Claudia) but as an American teenager who was betrayed by her mother who lied to her about how gross she was based on her standards.

I agree this is about Paige being naive more than stupid, but it also doesn't make her a competent recruit if not for Elizabeth's bad training.

 

4 hours ago, anonymiss said:

Absolutely. Their choices within the home, though, have always surprised and impressed upon me that they are loving, warm, and permissive parents. Their voices are heard and respected, even if doing wrong like when P scolded Paige for skipping school and lying about it. He apologized for his rare outburst. She has been raised wjth a freedom to be insolent, reflected in her adult behavior when given any criticism. 

Yup, they're actually very normal good parents for that time. They wouldn't stand out at all except for the times they run out unexpectedly.

Edited May 26, 2018 by sistermagpie

[TimWil]

4 hours ago, Plums said:

I so agree. The only real dramatic misstep of the entire series, for me personally, was the Jared reveal in the s2 finale. The idea behind that entire plot was great, but the execution of the twist reveal was so hilariously awful and narm-y, and it all could have been resolved if it wasn't a neck wound. There have been some really fantastic dying monologues on this show, but that was not one of them, lol. 

In the episode “Yousaf” in Season 2 Stan actually showed sketches of Philip and Elizabeth to Jared and asked him if he knew them. So close yet so far! I wonder if this would figure somehow in any sort of montage recapping for us Stan’s vaguely niggling suspicions about P & E over the years.

 

Nah, I don’t think they’ll do that, either.

[MisterBluxom]

On 5/24/2018 at 6:16 PM, jjj said:

Thank you for this confirmation.  I have been saying poison dart device tow the past two episodes, but posters have said they were trying to stab him (including the recap). It made no sense, because you can't stab someone in public with people around and expect to get it done.  And shooting attracts too much attention.*  But poison, by the time they figure it out, will have the attacker off the scene. 

(*Except when Elizabeth shoots Tatiana, which again, don't get me started.) 

As I understand, it's very hard to kill someone with a knife. But equally hard not to kill them with a gun."

If the KGB ever sent someone on a mission to kill someone, I would bet they would not be OK with using a knife unless they spent many, many hours training that person how to do it.  Extremely difficult to be certain a knife attack will result in death.

Edited May 25, 2018 by MissBluxom

[MisterBluxom]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Paige really has not been shut down harshly whenever she shows interest or initiative. In fact, to me it seems like characterizing it like that points to the bigger problem, which is that Paige often acts like she has been and Elizabeth doesn't disabuse her of this notion.

 

How could E have done a good job training Paige when she lied to her about many important issues:

P: "Mommy? Do you have to ever use sex in your work? Do you ever have to sleep with people if you don't want to?

E: Oh no dear. You don't ever have to do most anything against your will. Life in our business is like one long party on "Big Rock Candy Mountain".

There have been several occasions where E lied to her daughter instead of telling her any of the unpleasant realities. How could that leave Paige in a condition to do the kind of work required?

Edited May 25, 2018 by MissBluxom

[spritz]

5 hours ago, jnymph said:

LOL !  Glad I wasn't the only one who thought that.   

Elizabeth's character arc is too little too late for me.    Still want to see her snuffed out; then Philip can happily line dance his life away without her.

 

Elizabeth is beyond redemption at this point. She needs to be taken down one way or another. However, she does deserve some sympathy for having to put up with Paige's temper tantrum.

 

Philip is not much better. Perhaps it is fitting that Philip has faced the wrath of capitalism. Philip's business and livelihood apparently have gone down the toilet. Because of all the lives and families that he has destroyed, it is only appropriate that he wind up broke and on the run. Capitalism gets its revenge.

5 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Poor Tatiana.  Getting gunned down in the street like that with your wig off.  At least you still have your head and hands and weren’t packed into a suitcase.

 

It was kind of funny that Tatiana's wig fell off. In all the times that Elizabeth and Philip had engaged in energetic activity while wearing a wig, like Philip having rigorous sex with Martha, their wigs remained firmly intact.

Edited May 25, 2018 by spritz

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

How could E have done a good job training Paige when she lied to her about many important issues:

3 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

There have been several occasions where E lied to her daughter instead of telling her any of the unpleasant realities. How would that leave Paige in a condition to do the kind of work required?

It wouldn't.

I said that Elizabeth was not doing a good job training her. But that there's zero reason to think that a better trainer would have made Paige a good recruit either. One of the many ways Elizabeth is being a bad trainer is by continuing to pretend Paige has potential.

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, that's funny about that wig slip.  It must be that P and E are professionals.  Tatianna just didn't know what she was doing. lol

[EtheltoTillie]

53 minutes ago, spritz said:

It was kind of funny that Tatiana's wig fell off. In all the times that Elizabeth and Philip had engaged in energetic activity while wearing a wig, like Philip having rigorous sex with Martha, their wigs remained firmly intact.

Y'all are gonna think I'm crazy, but for one quick second, when Tatiana first fell down and the wig fell off, and you only saw the head from an angle, I thought it was Philip!  I realized it could not be, of course, but I think they were having some fun with us. 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Trillian said:

Umbellina, I would love to know what old memories you have of being chased by FBI agents in shiny black shoes. 

On second, thought, maybe I don’t want to know. 

Actually the first time I heard it was at a Viet Nam War protest, called the "Moratorium."  The FBI had infiltrated the massive crowds, most had clothes of the day on, tied dyed shirts, or hoodies, jeans, etc.  Still they were all wearing shiny black polished office shoes.  A friend pointed to the shoes so I got the message. 

52 minutes ago, spritz said:

It was kind of funny that Tatiana's wig fell off. In all the times that Elizabeth and Philip had engaged in energetic activity while wearing a wig, like Philip having rigorous sex with Martha, their wigs remained firmly intact.

Philip and Elizabeth do deep cover work, and while all spies are trained in disguises?  They use them regularly, where Tatiana, who is mainly an office worker, or goes out to do her jobs as herself?  Probably doesn't need them as much.  Also, there are "light" cover and "heavy" cover disguises.  For this one, all Tatiana needed was light cover, no one would be touching her hair, she needed a wig that was easy to pull off, probably in case she had to evade/disappear as Philip did. Ditch the coat, remove the wig, etc.

48 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, that's funny about that wig slip.  It must be that P and E are professionals.  Tatianna just didn't know what she was doing. lol

Honestly she probably did know, as I said above, being able to quickly remove a wig could have been important considering it was a quiet, pass by murder, she would need to change her look very fast.

[Erin9]

We may never know the answer to this, but what did Elizabeth originally see in her/their future after telling Claudia she didn’t kill Nesterenko.

If nothing else, her and Claudia had to be done working together. Did she think she’d get a new handler? Did she still want to spy after realizing how things really worked? That she’d be done spying anyway due to the probable chaos? Any thoughts of disappearing to get away from other KGB or military officers looking for revenge if Claudia told on her? I realize these people would probably be more worried about themselves and not getting arrested, but they could still look for revenge anyway. 

This all appears to be forever unknown due to Andre screwing up. The FBI seems to be the bigger problem now. 

ETA—But- it was an interesting choice to have their life unraveling before Andre screwed up. The business was failing. Stan got suspicious. Paige confronted Elizabeth about lying. Elizabeth didn’t murder Nesterenko- and whatever consequences might have come with that. Things were already changing irrevocably. 

Edited May 26, 2018 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

I just started rewatching the ep and I don't think I commented on how much I like the Pastor Tim scene. Kelly AuCoin is really good in it, but it's also just a great little moment of real people acting like spies. Because you can see his real reactions to everything very clearly but then also see how he just pops out a chipper, casual sounding answer, which is all Stan hears.

On a spy show it's a nice little moment of people being duplicitous and wearing masks. I remember reading once that often a voice is more revealing than a look but that's what Pastor Tim is faking.

Interesting that while he looks horrified as soon as he knows who's on the phone he's the one who pushes Stan to get to the point rather than give himself more time to think. And I feel like when he gets to "Philip and Elizabeth..." there's that little pause where he's searching for the right thing to say because he doesn't seem able to really lie, plus he's probably thinking that he needs to distance himself from them. Like not just not give them a personal endorsement but also make it clear he didn't deal with them.

In a way that might have kept Stan suspicious because if Tim didn't know their secret? He probably would have been more chatty about them and more positive. Not just say that they weren't in the church but more play the friendly pastor who loves all even if they're not right with God. His inability to fake that didn't tell Stan he was right but it didn't reassure him either.

[Erin9]

I don’t know. I mean, I can’t imagine many people wanting to spend loads of time talking to the FBI in an official capacity. Even if they have nothing to hide.

They weren’t in the church. So he didn’t know them. Short and accurate as far as anyone but his wife would know. But maybe it stood out to Stan that he said very little. 

[sistermagpie]

51 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

We may never know the answer to this, but what did Elizabeth originally see in her/their future after telling Claudia she didn’t kill Nesterenko.

If nothing else, her and Claudia had to be done working together. Did she think she’d get a new handler? Did she still want to spy after realizing how things really worked? That she’d be done spying anyway due to the probable chaos? Any thoughts of disappearing to get away from other KGB or military officers looking for revenge if Claudia told on her? I realize these people would probably be more worried about themselves and not getting arrested, but they could still look for revenge anyway. 

This all appears to be forever unknown due to Andre screwing up. The FBI seems to be the bigger problem now. 

ETA—But- it was an interesting choice to have their life unraveling before Andre screwed up. The business was failing. Stan got suspicious. Paige confronted Elizabeth about lying. Elizabeth didn’t murder Nesterenko- and whatever consequences might have come with that. Things were already changing irrevocably. 

 

I was thinking the same thing. With the Paige scene Elizabeth and Philip are really in the same boat. They both tried to throw themselves into the work they had alone. Elizabeth just wound up blowing hers up. Philip's is already collapsing. Their best intentions with their kids wound up with the kid being let down. Everything they were ostensibly working on separately collapsed.

The one thing that really stayed strong despite it being the thing that seemed the most threatened was the marriage. It's really a great symbol for Elizabeth to leave her life behind and have that one personal item, the wedding rings, that will remain the same.

27 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I don’t know. I mean, I can’t imagine many people wanting to spend loads of time talking to the FBI in an official capacity. Even if they have nothing to hide.

They weren’t in the church. So he didn’t know them. Short and accurate as far as anyone but his wife would know. But maybe it stood out to Stan that he said very little. 

That's basically what I mean--I don't think it gave Stan any new suspicions, but think about it from his pov. He's already suspicious of them (not Paige) being Russian spies. Tim can speak about Paige, praises her, then when it comes to Philip and Elizabeth it's just like ...

[...]

It's like the "records not found" thing on the computer. Or Henry not having any relatives to speak of. It's nothing. But it's a whole lot of nothing. It's not Tim gabbing on about Philip as he might have if Philip was just that guy he's pretending to be. Not that Tim would necessarily get too chatty with Stan--he's a bit of a hippie so he's not chummy with the FBI. But he might have come up with something that sounded personal. The guy actually did have a relationship with them. When you think about it this is the very thing that's odd about them, that you just can't get too deep before things get fuzzy and vague.

It's tiny, but then so are all Stan's suspicions at this point.

I was also just watching the Stan/Aderholt scene. There's another convo about Renee there. I know a lot of people think this is all hinting she's a spy but as someone who wants her to be just a wife it occurred to me that maybe Stan's just having the same experience as P&E. That is, that these last 3 years have been sort of a dream where he did things differently--he was the good husband. But what have we seen in the past few eps? He's staring out the window and saying he's looking at the moon when he's really watching the Jennings house. In this ep he's being a bit apprehensive about Renee working at the FBI, the two of them having every meal together. Philip also brought up the bad sides by saying he and Elizabeth fought about work etc. Aderholdt reminds Stan he can tell Renee he's busy if she wants to have lunch too. When Stan asks Aderholt for a beer after work Aderholt says he'll be working until the wee hours and Stan says he will be too.

Sound familiar? Stan spent 3 years in a division he didn't care as much about but now that he's been lured back to counterintel (reluctantly since every time he goes downstairs someone ends up dead) he's awake again, the one with the hunches, sniffing after those Illegals he was obsessed with getting before. Working until the wee hours instead of joking about how if he was home late for dinner Aderholt would have to explain that to Renee. Maybe not thinking of his wife as a work partner...

Edited May 26, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Plums]

just saw this point made on reddit, and I can't believe I missed this, cause it's kind of amazing-

Phillip getting made in the meeting with Father Andrei actually was fortuitous for him and Elizabeth. It lets them know the game is up and at least gives them a head start. Because Father Viktor already was gonna flip and give up Father Andrei no matter what, and the FBI was probably going to bring in Father Andrei based on the probable cause of Viktor's information no matter what, all without their knowledge. And Father Andrei would probably have led the FBI to the figuring out the illegals are the Jennings if that happened, but instead of discovering they've bugged out when they go to apprehend them, they'd just catch them unawares at home, and game over. 

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Actually the first time I heard it was at a Viet Nam War protest, called the "Moratorium."  The FBI had infiltrated the massive crowds, most had clothes of the day on, tied dyed shirts, or hoodies, jeans, etc.  Still they were all wearing shiny black polished office shoes.  A friend pointed to the shoes so I got the message.

I remember hearing that, now that you mention it. 

If I have my protests right, Newsweek had a cover with some young men on a statue, and one was holding a North Vietnamese flag. In the mid-70's, my then boyfriend was friends with a guy who claimed to be the one holding that flag (I vaguely remembered the cover). The story he told was that he'd climbed the statue to get a better view, and someone handed up the flag so he just held on to it. He wasn't a protester, just a curious local (who then hid the newspaper from his mother the next day, since he was on the cover of it as well).  I didn't believe him, so I went to the library and dug through the Newsweeks - and there he was.

43 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I just started rewatching the ep and I don't think I commented on how much I like the Pastor Tim scene. Kelly AuCoin is really good in it, but it's also just a great little moment of real people acting like spies. Because you can see his real reactions to everything very clearly but then also see how he just pops out a chipper, casual sounding answer, which is all Stan hears.

On a spy show it's a nice little moment of people being duplicitous and wearing masks. I remember reading once that often a voice is more revealing than a look but that's what Pastor Tim is faking.

Interesting that while he looks horrified as soon as he knows who's on the phone he's the one who pushes Stan to get to the point rather than give himself more time to think. And I feel like when he gets to "Philip and Elizabeth..." there's that little pause where he's searching for the right thing to say because he doesn't seem able to really lie, plus he's probably thinking that he needs to distance himself from them. Like not just not give them a personal endorsement but also make it clear he didn't deal with them.

In a way that might have kept Stan suspicious because if Tim didn't know their secret? He probably would have been more chatty about them and more positive. Not just say that they weren't in the church but more play the friendly pastor who loves all even if they're not right with God. His inability to fake that didn't tell Stan he was right but it didn't reassure him either.

I think Stan heard more. The long silence he held at the end is, I believe, an interrogation tactic, since most people are uncomfortable with silence and start to talk to fill the air. Pastor Tim did handle it well, though. But I think Stan got confirmation - nothing actionable, but confirmation nonetheless.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Clanstarling said:

I think Stan heard more. The long silence he held at the end is, I believe, an interrogation tactic, since most people are uncomfortable with silence and start to talk to fill the air. Pastor Tim did handle it well, though. But I think Stan got confirmation - nothing actionable, but confirmation nonetheless.

But did he get confirmation on Tim as well? Like does he think Tim knows--if he does Stan could probably threaten him. Does he thinks Tim is working with them? Or does he just think Tim absolutely noted some weird things about them or something?

If Tim knows, wouldn't that clue Stan in to Paige (who he'd already noticed had problems as a teenager) knowing?

[Erin9]

I think maybe the biggest takeaway Stan could have gotten is not so much that Tim knows more than he’s saying- but that Elizabeth and Philip keep a fairly low profile. Stan might then realize how little he really knows about them too.  Philip and Elizabeth have never been huge talkers. And they watch what they say. Philip might like to talk, but he picks his moments. 

Not saying much about them personally isn’t a big deal. If you don’t know someone well, then there’s not much to say. I didn’t think Tim’s tone of voice gave away much either. But- if nobody seems to feel like they really know them- that’s a bit different. Of course, some people are just private. But it could also be seen as one more thing. 

I feel like I could be describing Stan a bit too. 

[sistermagpie]

41 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Not saying much about them personally isn’t a big deal. If you don’t know someone well, then there’s not much to say. I didn’t think Tim’s tone of voice gave away much either. But- if nobody seems to feel like they really know them- that’s a bit different. Of course, some people are just private. But it could also be seen as one more thing. 

I feel like I could be describing Stan a bit too. 

Right, just like the Thanksgiving thing!

I think that's what it is too. Because Stan already has this idea in his head that Philip and Elizabeth aren't real people. So when he talks to somebody about them he wants something that dispels that idea. And nobody can give it to him. Tim is the only person he remembers as a personal friend and yet he gives him nothing.

Henry unwittingly gave him the same thing. In his case he knew their habits but couldn't explain them. He hints at the same thing to Philip when he says he doesn't understand why his mother is so sad in her life. With Philip he knows the business is failing, sees the marriage is shaky. He probably actually does know his father enough to guess that he feels guilty about not taking care of everything--and he's right. He just doesn't know the real issues.

They are a lot like Stan--although Stan also has an ex-wife, people he worked with in Arkansas, an dead ex-partner. Most of Philip and Elizabeth's lives are lived in the shadows so Stan can't even see them having a history.

I also notice here that Elizabeth is specifically brought up as Gregory's girlfriend, which is interesting in the context of Paige's accusations. I mean, just that Gregory was a whole other wrinkle in the marriage. A very different kind. Philip *did* care about sex in that case, though not in the way Paige might have imagined. Here Stan is very open to the idea that Elizabeth was somebody else's girlfriend, meaning that either he assumes they honeytrap on the side or maybe he's questioning if the marriage is real. It's not like Stan would know how this sort of thing works.

If Elizabeth was Gregory's girlfriend...maybe Philip was Martha's husband.

ETA: I just realized that maybe it's not just Stan, Philip and Elizabeth who are waking up after a 3 year dream of pretending to be somebody else and building a different life. Maybe they all are. Paige woke up here too and went back to the girl she was when she saw her mother as a liar and didn't want to be a liar who hurt people. Maybe Henry, faced with his family in danger, will turn out to not be the over achiever he is right now but the kid with the bottle!

Edited May 26, 2018 by sistermagpie

[jjj]

A couple of observations:

Philip and Elizabeth were not in any scenes together; even the phone conversation had them in different locations.  I can't think of another episode where they were separated for the entire episode.  (I know someone will remind me of examples I forgot!)  

The whole season has moved like clockwork week by week in Autumn 1987, with each episode giving us a little sliver of information about the current date each week; then, a two-and-a-half-week skip from Thanksgiving to the summit.  But only 24 hours have elapsed between the second half of last week and all of this week.  As others pointed out above, Elizabeth has been 24 hours without sleep -- and the previous night was with Jackson, so not much there, either.   But from the time she let Jackson escape, to the time Philip called her with the "all is lost" message was about 24 hours, so a very compressed timeline.  I wonder if the final episode will compress even more, into just a few hours.  Also in this 24 hours:  Jackson decides to drop out of school that same afternoon and gets drunk that night, his pal finds Paige in the morning and tells her about it; Elizabeth with no sleep hangs out in the hotel, sits on a bench, fueled by nicotine and caffeine (no wonder she was hallucinating back to Russia), kills Tatiana (who herself only had a few hours' notice to go sit in the car and wait for the diplomats), sees Claudia for the second time in 24 hours (the night before, and lunchtime this day), gets home to finally douse her face in cold, cold water in the kitchen sink, blows up at Paige, and gets the call to leave her house forever and stop being Elizabeth Jennings.  That is a lot of continuous adrenalin, but she has to fray at some point from sheer exhaustion.   

Just realized that the video "The Garage" will have massive late fees.  Good luck collecting.  (Philip had to write the coded message that night while Elizabeth was doing protective prowling, so he also probably did not get much sleep. His morning was spent in disguise dropping off the message early, then at the travel agency [thank goodness, because of Stan's visit], then meeting Andrei, so no rest for Philip.  I guess he never sees the travel agency again, either.)   It was a bright sky when he called Elizabeth, so still afternoon (almost the solstice, so it gets dark early), although it seemed dark at the house.   

Edited May 26, 2018 by jjj

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But did he get confirmation on Tim as well? Like does he think Tim knows--if he does Stan could probably threaten him. Does he thinks Tim is working with them? Or does he just think Tim absolutely noted some weird things about them or something?

If Tim knows, wouldn't that clue Stan in to Paige (who he'd already noticed had problems as a teenager) knowing?

I think Stan got confirmation that something was off. Nothing actionable, though if Pastor Tim had still been in the DC area, he might have interrogated him more thoroughly. I think he "heard" the carefully parsed language Tim was using. And yes, I think Paige would be the next stop - if they weren't already heading headlong into the spy chase. Maybe he still will find the time to talk to her - the newly disillusioned girl who would definitely break under pressure.

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Right, just like the Thanksgiving thing!

I think that's what it is too. Because Stan already has this idea in his head that Philip and Elizabeth aren't real people. So when he talks to somebody about them he wants something that dispels that idea. And nobody can give it to him. Tim is the only person he remembers as a personal friend and yet he gives him nothing.

Henry unwittingly gave him the same thing. In his case he knew their habits but couldn't explain them. He hints at the same thing to Philip when he says he doesn't understand why his mother is so sad in her life. With Philip he knows the business is failing, sees the marriage is shaky. He probably actually does know his father enough to guess that he feels guilty about not taking care of everything--and he's right. He just doesn't know the real issues.

They are a lot like Stan--although Stan also has an ex-wife, people he worked with in Arkansas, an dead ex-partner. Most of Philip and Elizabeth's lives are lived in the shadows so Stan can't even see them having a history.

Yes! Sometimes the information you get is that there is no information - and that in itself is suspicious. No information isn't actionable, but it adds another layer to the question - who are they? I agree that Stan really wants to find some evidence that they're "real" and his suspicions are crazy. He's striking out. Three strikes if I'm counting them correctly - I'd add a baseball metaphor, but it's early and I don't really know the game that well. I'm not a spy because I don't care for America's pastime. (is what a spy would say, da?)

[TaurusRose]

On 5/24/2018 at 2:44 PM, icemiser69 said:

That is what I wanted to happen, and actually expected to happen.  I didn't even recognize Tatiana.

If Renee pulls something out of her butt in the very last episode after not being much of factor in the series, I am going to be annoyed.

I could envision a scenario where P & E and little p show up at the  U.S./ Canadian border in disguise and that Stan is the only one that recognizes them and he lets them go through.

What I can't figure out is how they could possibly get Henry informed on everything that is going on within the last 90 minutes of the series, and have Henry willing to go along with it.  Perhaps he stays behind and Stan watches over him.

With all that is going on, I can't imagine Claudia being a factor. 

No, no, no! As unhappy as I am with the U.S. right now this would be total bullshit in my opinion. Elizabeth and Phillip may be acting “honorably” in the best interests of their country, but Stan is a federal agent and is acting in the best interest of his. These people have spied on the U.S. and killed countless innocent bystanders. For Stan to do anything less than cuff them and place them under arrest would be treason on his part, and Alderholt should shoot him where he stands.

Edited May 26, 2018 by taurusrose

[Clanstarling]

21 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

No, no, no! As unhappy as I am with the U.S. right now this would be total bullshit in my opinion. Elizabeth and Phillip may be acting “honorably” in the best interests of their country, but Stan is a federal agent and is acting in the best interest of his. These people have spied on the U.S. and killed countless innocent bystanders. For Stan to do anything less than cuff them would be treason on his part and Alderholt should shoot him where he stands.

I don't see that happening either. Even though Stan's conflicted, he's still pursuing his investigation of them. If it was his nature to give them a pass at the border, he would not have started actively pursuing his suspicions.

I think the Thanksgiving speech strongly showed that Stan is first, and foremost, a patriot. Not unlike Philip and Elizabeth. I don't believe any of them would choose the personal connection over their own country's interest at this point. No matter how complicated their feelings and actions are about their missions.

Stan, IIRC, ultimately did not betray his country for Nina's sake, and he loved her. He's not going to betray it for Philip and Elizabeth.

In my opinion, it's going to end in tears for everyone.

The only scenario I can imagine that doesn't - is a secret spy exchange that helps cement the summit.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Clanstarling

[lazylou]

I have loved this show over the years.  I will certainly miss it when it is gone...  Like all great, long running shows, some seasons and some plot lines worked less well for me than others, but always the show has managed to come roaring back and I have been all too willing to suspend disbelief.  

The plot element that has always bothered me has to do with Paige. I am the same age as Elizabeth is supposed to have been, my children are roughly the same age.  I understand Paige's initial horror at finding out who her parents are, though her objections seem to center on her having been lied to...but I would think a child growing up in that period, exposed to all the rah-rah patriotism at school and the depiction of the "evil empire" that would have been everywhere (except at home) would have been horrified to learn her parents were Reds.  I do not think she would have told anyone because she would have been ashamed and aware they would be exposed, jailed, and she would understand that her life as she knew it would be over.  I bought her reaction because it is a TV show and because up to that point the show had shown Paige as being completely unaware of the world around her...not knowing where Poland was, hearing her mother criticize her social studies teacher not for his opinions but for his appearance...it appeared the couple was so apolitical around the kids that they left them in ignorance.  

The only way I could except Paige becoming a spy is by accepting that she is one of those people who is great at memorizing facts and performing at school, but shallow and slavishly desirous of fitting in...in this case, to her parents approval.  

The Jared plot did not work for me for much the same reason.  We do not know this family...but suddenly this bright kid has been recruited unbeknownst to his parents, who then objected to his recruitment and died because of it.  It seems to me that his recruitment would have required the parents to have been relatively open about their opinions, etc., around their kids, and in that case, would they have objected to his decision so strenuously he would have had to kill them?

Henry seem to have been a neglected kid for a season or two, though not at first...this plot line I do believe.  If he agrees to leave with them, it will be because, as he told Stan, family comes first...and he will understand that his life in this country will be ruined anyway when his family is exposed.  Of course, we know that in a few years he will be able to come back, change his name, and, though he won't be able to get a security clearance, live a normal life here.

i think Stan may get to New Hampshire first, though...

Edited May 26, 2018 by lazylou
Typos

[Clanstarling]

I don't know why, and it is contrary to the premise of this show being about family, it didn't even occur to me that they'd try to hustle up the kids. Well, at least not Henry - who would likely be better off clueless. And Paige would be difficult at this point. I'm sure my semi-take is entirely wrong, but I can't shake it off.

[Erin9]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Right, just like the Thanksgiving thing!

I think that's what it is too. Because Stan already has this idea in his head that Philip and Elizabeth aren't real people. So when he talks to somebody about them he wants something that dispels that idea. And nobody can give it to him. Tim is the only person he remembers as a personal friend and yet he gives him nothing.

Henry unwittingly gave him the same thing. In his case he knew their habits but couldn't explain them. He hints at the same thing to Philip when he says he doesn't understand why his mother is so sad in her life. With Philip he knows the business is failing, sees the marriage is shaky. He probably actually does know his father enough to guess that he feels guilty about not taking care of everything--and he's right. He just doesn't know the real issues.

They are a lot like Stan--although Stan also has an ex-wife, people he worked with in Arkansas, an dead ex-partner. Most of Philip and Elizabeth's lives are lived in the shadows so Stan can't even see them having a history.

I also notice here that Elizabeth is specifically brought up as Gregory's girlfriend, which is interesting in the context of Paige's accusations. I mean, just that Gregory was a whole other wrinkle in the marriage. A very different kind. Philip *did* care about sex in that case, though not in the way Paige might have imagined. Here Stan is very open to the idea that Elizabeth was somebody else's girlfriend, meaning that either he assumes they honeytrap on the side or maybe he's questioning if the marriage is real. It's not like Stan would know how this sort of thing works.

If Elizabeth was Gregory's girlfriend...maybe Philip was Martha's husband.

ETA: I just realized that maybe it's not just Stan, Philip and Elizabeth who are waking up after a 3 year dream of pretending to be somebody else and building a different life. Maybe they all are. Paige woke up here too and went back to the girl she was when she saw her mother as a liar and didn't want to be a liar who hurt people. Maybe Henry, faced with his family in danger, will turn out to not be the over achiever he is right now but the kid with the bottle!

Who do you think Elizabeth has been pretending to be for 3 years? 

Yes- it does seem like everyone is waking up after 3 years. 

Henry’s reaction will be interesting. I hope Philip and Elizabeth get to see him- that those good byes weren’t really it. 

I wish we had more time. I feel cheated on a lot of things. Right now- I wish we could have seen the real aftermath of Elizabeth telling Claudia that Moscow knew everything, that she hadn’t killed the Nesterenko. That was so huge. 

[Clanstarling]

3 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Who do you think Elizabeth has been pretending to be for 3 years? 

Yes- it does seem like everyone is waking up after 3 years. 

Henry’s reaction will be interesting. I hope Philip and Elizabeth get to see him- that those good byes weren’t really it. 

I wish we had more time. I feel cheated on a lot of things. Right now- I wish we could have seen the real aftermath of Elizabeth telling Claudia that Moscow knew everything, that she hadn’t killed the Nesterenko. That was so huge. 

A super spy who doesn't need anyone's help? An excellent trainer of novice spies? A wife who doesn't resent her husband for doing the very thing she supported him doing? (okay, that one she hasn't been pretending to be very well at all).

[JennyMominFL]

I would have been Paige's age, maybe a touch younger. I was  born in 1970. I was very patriotic. I joined the Marines out of high School. I'm trying to imagine finding out my parents were spies. I didn't hate or think the Russians were bad people. I was a bit fascinated by them.  I've never been a black and white thinker though. I think I would have been pretty upset by the KGB though.  I tended to think the average Eastern block resident felt  lot like I did...Afraid that the world would end in a nuclear war since our governments couldn't get their acts together

Edited May 26, 2018 by JennyMominFL

[rhys]

I was hoping P& E would mail enough cash to Henry to pay for his remaining time at his private school.

[BingeyKohan]

47 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I don't know why, and it is contrary to the premise of this show being about family, it didn't even occur to me that they'd try to hustle up the kids. Well, at least not Henry - who would likely be better off clueless. And Paige would be difficult at this point. I'm sure my semi-take is entirely wrong, but I can't shake it off.

I’m starting to think they won’t actually go after Henry - they’ll do the hard calculation he’s better off not having known anything. It’s like they’ve made a Sophie’s Choice in slow motion all these years and chose to save Henry.

[Sarah 103]

20 hours ago, anonymiss said:

Absolutely. Their choices within the home, though, have always surprised and impressed upon me that they are loving, warm, and permissive parents. Their voices are heard and respected, even if doing wrong like when P scolded Paige for skipping school and lying about it. He apologized for his rare outburst. She has been raised wjth a freedom to be insolent, reflected in her adult behavior when given any criticism. 

That makes more sense. Thanks for the explanation. How they expect her to speak to them in the home wouldn't raise eyebrows among the neighbors at all. I could see Paige complaing at school about her parents getting angry when she talked back to them, and other classmates sympathizing. If a teacher walked by and overheard they wouldn't think it was anything odd, just typical adolecent complaining. 

10 hours ago, jjj said:

Just realized that the video "The Garage" will have massive late fees.  

I can't remember, was he in disguise when he rented it? Could he have dropped it off before he went to the travel agency? 

5 minutes ago, rhys said:

I was hoping P& E would mail enough cash to Henry to pay for his remaining time at his private school.

I'm not sure they have the money to do that. They are not going to risk capture just so Henry can finish school. It's going to be a race to the finish next week. Philip and Elizabeth have a head start. The FBI hasn't figured out it's them yet, so they might have time to get Henry and leave. 

3 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

I’m starting to think they won’t actually go after Henry - they’ll do the hard calculation he’s better off not having known anything. It’s like they’ve made a Sophie’s Choice in slow motion all these years and chose to save Henry.

Except that doesn't really work. Once the FBI figures out that Philip and Elizabeth are spies, they are going to go after Henry. Even if he doesn't know anything, I'm not sure the FBI would believe that. Stan's known Oleg for years, saw Oleg betray his country over the bio-weapon, and still thought Oleg was behind all of the recent murders and break-ins. I doubt he would trust Henry. 

[jjj]

4 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I can't remember, was he in disguise when he rented it? Could he have dropped it off before he went to the travel agency? 

Except that doesn't really work. Once the FBI figures out that Philip and Elizabeth are spies, they are going to go after Henry. Even if he doesn't know anything, I'm not sure the FBI would believe that. Stan's known Oleg for years, saw Oleg betray his country over the bio-weapon, and still thought Oleg was behind all of the recent murders and break-ins. I doubt he would trust Henry. 

I was joking about the videotape, but yes, Philip's was in a mild disguise when he rented it. ?

Given that Stan was clueless (mostly) for years about the spies, and that he had that recent probing discussion with Henry, I think Stan will completely believe Henry knew nothing. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, lazylou said:

The Jared plot did not work for me for much the same reason.  We do not know this family...but suddenly this bright kid has been recruited unbeknownst to his parents, who then objected to his recruitment and died because of it.  It seems to me that his recruitment would have required the parents to have been relatively open about their opinions, etc., around their kids, and in that case, would they have objected to his decision so strenuously he would have had to kill them?

 

I had some problems with the Jared plot but none of this was a problem for me at all. When the KGB told Jared who his parents really were behind their back they completely traumatized him. That's a huge thing to do to someone. There's no way he was psychologically healthy after that. Then they sent in a sexy handler to seduce him and he clung to that. It wasn't political for him, it was desperately emotional. His parents objected for the same reason Philip did--they wanted their son to have his own life and not be owned by the Centre. Jared killed them because he was emotionally unbalanced--his parents seeming to reject him again, saying they would take away Kate--hell, they probably revealed to him that Kate was simply manipulating him--that was too much. He erased his family because he thought it was all a lie. The fact that he killed his sister proves this wasn't any sort of strategy on his part. He's not the first young man to lash out with a gun that was handy. Emotionally and psychologically Jared's story makes absolute sense to me--the only issue I have with it on that score was his ability to play things so well after the fact and not seem more disturbed. That was unfair to the actor, too, not telling him the truth until late in the game, which I believe they did.

Obviously we didn't see the actual scene so I don't know how much of this is completely accurate, but those are not cold-blood murders. That's a psychotic rage.

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

Who do you think Elizabeth has been pretending to be for 3 years? 

Yes- it does seem like everyone is waking up after 3 years.

 

 

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

A super spy who doesn't need anyone's help? An excellent trainer of novice spies? A wife who doesn't resent her husband for doing the very thing she supported him doing? (okay, that one she hasn't been pretending to be very well at all).

Here I'd go back to the end of S5 where everyone made choices that defined them for 3 years. In Elizabeth's case I'd say she became that superspy who only cared about the cause. She'd always had the idea in her mind that that's who she wanted to be. That's why she was apprehensive about having children. She didn't want to have a husband/partner. She buried the loving part of herself. Here she finally started to wake up to the human being she'd always been. She wasn't really that good at it--she made mistakes that she didn't make before.

Philip was being someone content with a life of making money and buying things but really he was the person who wanted to do good in the world. (Though not necessarily as a spy.) It's like MR said--Philip has "chased this dream" of making it outside the spy world (much as Elizabeth has always had that lone spy with no attachments outside the cause in her mind) but now he realizes that wasn't his dream. He was bad at it.

Paige became a liar spy like her mom when really she wanted authentic relationships and an authentic self and to be a good person by Pastor Tim's standards. In S5 decided that she couldn't have real relationships and that she was irrevocably "messed up" morally and so became her mother instead. She was bad at it.

Henry had always been a kid with passionate interests but after meeting Chris his interests became more the means than an end. I remember when Paige told Philip she envied Henry knowing what he wanted and where his place was Philip said he was a kid so couldn't know what he wanted. He said "He's not the kind of kid who..." and then trailed off, not being able to say what kind of kid he was because I think he never likes to define the kids. Henry seems to be very good at the person he is, but then, we don't see any cracks there might be.

Stan couldn't handle the mess of counterespionage so went to a different department and became a married guy into his wife. He, too, was pretty good at it, but that doesn't mean something true isn't missing.

Really you could say everyone found a solution to their potential problem, but one that wasn't actually fully satisfying:

Elizabeth dealt with Philip's pain by going it alone, but being that person was destroying her and the work. By protecting Philip she started to lose him.

Philip dealt with the pain of spying by becoming fully Philip Jennings, but that made him feel useless.

Paige dealt with the fear that she was broken by being "strong" like Elizabeth but that made her more isolated and broken.

Henry potentially dealt with the feeling that he wasn't valued as much as his sister and his parents' work by becoming a superstar but leaving home's made him less connected to his family than ever. (And feeling less valued than ever by his mother.)

Stan dealt with the mess of espionage by choosing an easier division, but he wasn't as passionate about the work.

 

34 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

I’m starting to think they won’t actually go after Henry - they’ll do the hard calculation he’s better off not having known anything. It’s like they’ve made a Sophie’s Choice in slow motion all these years and chose to save Henry.

In the Sophie's Choice comparison to me it seems like it's Paige who's the one they're saving. If they give Henry a choice and he rejects them that's one thing, but deciding that for him would imo read to him as a declaration that they don't care about him, don't consider him family. Paige might as well be their only child. It's a huge risk going to get him, but that's exactly the kind of risk these last few eps have been about. It's doing what's right and showing what they care about. In the end the family isn't defined simply by who's in on the secret (or who gets a certain amount of screentime!).

Henry doesn't ask much from his family but he seems, especially this season, very aware and appreciative of gestures from them. He sees his father making an effort and wants to help him. He was struck by his mother's phone call and talked to Philip about her emotional state. I think he might very quickly grasp the risk his parents are taking by not just abandoning him in New Hampshire. No matter how upset he might be about the whole thing, I think he'd be more destroyed by them just leaving him.

Edited May 26, 2018 by sistermagpie

[lazylou]

I do not think either Paige or Henry would be upset to learn their parents were Russian.  Maybe they could have told the kids they were illegal immigrants, though that does not explain the odd hours they work.  I do think they would be horrified to learn the parents were KGB spies working against the American government.  

I taught high school in the 80s.  If a student had confided in me that her parents were Russian spies, I doubt I would have believed her.  But if her father had previously made a rather frightening visit to confront me after hours, if might have been different. And if the parents visited me and confirmed they were spies for the USSR, I would have told my husband....and he would have told me to call the FBI, just as the pastor's wife probably had.   It was a huge risk for the Jennings not to have packed up and left when Paige told the pastor...an even bigger one when they confirmed it.  

No wonder Pastor TIM is not about to tell the truth to Stan...he'd have a lot of 'splainin' to do!

41 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

I would have been Paige's age. maybe a touch younger. I was  born in 1970. I was very patriotic. I joined the Marines out of high School. I'm trying to imagine finding out my parents were spies. I didn't hate or think the Russians were bad people. I was a bit fascinated by them.  I've never been a black and white thinker though.I think I would have been pretty upset by the KGB though.  I tended to think the average Eastern block resident felt  lot like I did... Afraid that the world would end in a nuclear war since our governments couldn't get their acts together

Yes, the KGB part would have been the hard part for Paige to accept.

[BingeyKohan]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

In the Sophie's Choice comparison to me it seems like it's Paige who's the one they're saving. If they give Henry a choice and he rejects them that's one thing, but deciding that for him would imo read to him as a declaration that they don't care about him, don't consider him family. Paige might as well be their only child. It's a huge risk going to get him, but that's exactly the kind of risk these last few eps have been about. It's doing what's right and showing what they care about. In the end the family isn't defined simply by who's in on the secret (or who gets a certain amount of screentime!).

Henry doesn't ask much from his family but he seems, especially this season, very aware and appreciative of gestures from them. He sees his father making an effort and wants to help him. He was struck by his mother's phone call and talked to Philip about her emotional state. I think he might very quickly grasp the risk his parents are taking by not just abandoning him in New Hampshire. No matter how upset he might be about the whole thing, I think he'd be more destroyed by them just leaving him.

I guess I’d have to know more about what P&E think their options are at this point to feel confident about a prediction, but it seems to me even the best-case scenario for their escape is worse for Henry than for anyone. Maybe it’s more a Stella Dallas comparison I’m making but I could imagine them deciding hurting him now at least guarantees him an American life.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, BingeyKohan said:

I guess I’d have to know more about what P&E think their options are at this point to feel confident about a prediction, but it seems to me even the best-case scenario for their escape is worse for Henry than for anyone. Maybe it’s more a Stella Dallas comparison I’m making but I could imagine them deciding hurting him now at least guarantees him an American life.

Oh, it does--I totally get how from their pov they're giving up Henry and making a sacrifice so he can have a life. But from Henry's pov I can't see how it wouldn't just feel like his parents fled the country with his sister and who knows if they thought of him at all? And given Philip's pov throughout it seems like he'd see it that way too.

[BingeyKohan]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh, it does--I totally get how from their pov they're giving up Henry and making a sacrifice so he can have a life. But from Henry's pov I can't see how it wouldn't just feel like his parents fled the country with his sister and who knows if they thought of him at all? And given Philip's pov throughout it seems like he'd see it that way too.

Another star in the constellation of things the finale is maybe too short to fully deliver on! If we’d ever imagined how Henry would react learning the truth now his reaction (if it’s shown) will come under extreme duress. Oh, you’re spies? Oh, Paige has known for years? Oh, I have to leave my life behind? Oh, we’re in extreme danger? I have a hard time imagining them writing that scene so the only alternative I can imagine is there’s not a version of it.

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

Another star in the constellation of things the finale is maybe too short to fully deliver on! If we’d ever imagined how Henry would react learning the truth now his reaction (if it’s shown) will come under extreme duress. Oh, you’re spies? Oh, Paige has known for years? Oh, I have to leave my life behind? Oh, we’re in extreme danger? I have a hard time imagining them writing that scene so the only alternative I can imagine is there’s not a version of it.

I keep imagining that of course Henry would assume his father did something stupid to get money for the agency. So I keep imagining Philip explaining, "Yes, I'm in big trouble. The FBI is chasing us. We have to flee the country. No, it has nothing to do with the travel agency."

And Henry just being like, "Good lord, Dad, how did you manage to get into big financial troubles and ALSO become the FBI's most wanted for totally unrelated reasons? Like, that takes a special skill for fucking up, doesn't it? How hard did you look for trouble?"

[Sarah 103]

35 minutes ago, lazylou said:

If a student had confided in me that her parents were Russian spies, I doubt I would have believed her.  

That's something that never rang true for me. Why did they have to tell Pastor Tim the truth when it would have been so easy to smile, or look concerned and lie? 

Philip: Kids, right? Where do they get this stuff from? She must have been watching a spy movie on television or maybe one of her friends was reading a spy novel. 

Elizabeth: We've been busy with work. Maybe she was looking for attention. I can assure you it won't happen again. 

[SunnyBeBe]

14 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

That's something that never rang true for me. Why did they have to tell Pastor Tim the truth when it would have been so easy to smile, or look concerned and lie? 

Philip: Kids, right? Where do they get this stuff from? She must have been watching a spy movie on television or maybe one of her friends was reading a spy novel. 

Elizabeth: We've been busy with work. Maybe she was looking for attention. I can assure you it won't happen again. 

Yeah, I was mad as hell when they did the Pastor Tim reveal too, but, in the end, it turns out that Pastor Tim was one that kept his mouth shut, and it was their OWN people who caused them to have to bolt. 

[sistermagpie]

28 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

That's something that never rang true for me. Why did they have to tell Pastor Tim the truth when it would have been so easy to smile, or look concerned and lie? 

They already knew that he believed her from the tapes. I think doing that would have made him more concerned for Paige. When they did try to play things down by saying Paige was exaggerating by saying "spies" he didn't buy it.

Another interesting note about Pastor Tim's phone call was how he said he missed things and people in the US but Argentina felt "like home" now. Another little parallel to the Jennings.

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I don't know why, and it is contrary to the premise of this show being about family, it didn't even occur to me that they'd try to hustle up the kids. Well, at least not Henry - who would likely be better off clueless. And Paige would be difficult at this point. I'm sure my semi-take is entirely wrong, but I can't shake it off.

It never even occurred to me that they would leave their kids behind, most parents certainly wouldn't do that.  They do love their children.

Would leaving them behind be smarter?  In Henry's case, probably.  Then again, he's pretty young and that would land in in a group home, most people don't take in older foster kids.  I don't think he's quite in a position to be declared an emancipated minor either.  Paige?  Would break under questioning, give away Claudia and the other agents she's met that are still alive, and crumble under FBI questioning, ending up in prison for treason.

Would Elizabeth and Philip on their own have a much better chance of getting away?  Of course.

In the end though, they are a family, and I can't picture Philip leaving either one of his kids behind, and frankly, I can't see Elizabeth doing that either.  As Claudia said?  Now?  That's all she has.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

It never even occurred to me that they would leave their kids behind, most parents certainly wouldn't do that.  They do love their children.

Would leaving them behind be smarter?  In Henry's case, probably.  Then again, he's pretty young and that would land in in a group home, most people don't take in older foster kids.  I don't think he's quite in a position to be declared an emancipated minor either.  Paige?  Would break under questioning, give away Claudia and the other agents she's met that are still alive, and crumble under FBI questioning, ending up in prison for treason.

Would Elizabeth and Philip on their own have a much better chance of getting away?  Of course.

In the end though, they are a family, and I can't picture Philip leaving either one of his kids behind, and frankly, I can't see Elizabeth doing that either.  As Claudia said?  Now?  That's all she has.

Very true - all good points.  I'm sure I'm entirely wrong, for all the reasons you state, yet for some reason the feeling (not the belief) persists.

[Inquisitionist]

Could y'all please put your speculations in the Predictions thread and not here?  Much appreciated!

[Clanstarling]

5 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

Could y'all please put your speculations in the Predictions thread and not here?  Much appreciated!

Sure. Sorry about that. I didn't think of mine as a prediction, since it was so clearly wrong. And because I don't really have a defined prediction. But I can see where it can be taken as such.

[MisterBluxom]

4 hours ago, lazylou said:

The plot element that has always bothered me has to do with Paige. I am the same age as Elizabeth is supposed to have been, my children are roughly the same age.  I understand Paige's initial horror at finding out who her parents are, though her objections seem to center on her having been lied to...but I would think a child growing up in that period, exposed to all the rah-rah patriotism at school and the depiction of the "evil empire" that would have been everywhere (except at home) would have been horrified to learn her parents were Reds.  I do not think she would have told anyone because she would have been ashamed and aware they would be exposed, jailed, and she would understand that her life as she knew it would be over.  I bought her reaction because it is a TV show and because up to that point the show had shown Paige as being completely unaware of the world around her...not knowing where Poland was, hearing her mother criticize her social studies teacher not for his opinions but for his appearance...it appeared the couple was so apolitical around the kids that they left them in ignorance.  

 

The first few posts I ever read by Bannon ... well ... I just wasn't sure what to think. He seems to talk mostly about the writing of this show and all the problems he sees with the writing. His central point seems to be the writing is bad - usually because it's unrealistc - but sometimes I think it's because one of the show runners used to work for the CIA and may have some strong negative residual feelings about the FBI. It seems to me that more and more people have lately been making the point that the writing really seems to disparage the FBI and maybe because one or both of the showrunners have some strong negative feelings towards the FBI as well as other Law Enforcement agencies.

But the more I read Bannon's posts, the more I have come to agree with him. I know it's important for all of us to "think for ourselves". But I just don't have much experience with Federal LE to do much of a good job of that. As a result, I have come to really enjoy and mostly agree with Bannon's posts. Many people may disagree with me. But I recommend his posts as examples of some of the best thinking on this board.

The one element that I think was badly written above all is the Paige character. So many events surrounding Paige and so much of her own attitudes and behavior strike me as impossibly unrealistic. I made a very strong post about how that young man who E slept with would be at the same party with Paige and would get drunk and start spilling secrets that could get himself arrested and serve a long prison term. The events were so amazing that Paige then confronted her mother so strongly - perhaps for the first and only time in her life. The only way I could see something like that actually happening was if Paige had taken some strong mood-altering drugs.  I know that sounds highly improbable. But the writing surrounding the entire Paige character and most all of her behavior on this show just seems to me to be almost impossibly incomprehensible. In the end, I have to chalk it up to terrible writing. I would guess that like someone who paints themselves into a corner, the writers may have left things too long and found that when it came time to write the final few episodes, they just made a terrible mistake and failed to give themselves enough time.

Another possibility is there may have been serious disagreements between some of the decision makers and that resulted in a confusing and improbable sequence of events. I know several people have already posted they took plenty of time to plan how this show would work out and so there was no last minute confusion. But in the words of the immortal Bard, it seems to me, "there is something rotten in Denmark."  One way or another, things just don't add up for me.

Edited May 26, 2018 by MissBluxom

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

The events were so amazing that Paige then confronted her mother so strongly - perhaps for the first and only time in her life. The only way I could see something like that actually happening was if Paige had taken some strong mood-altering drugs. 

Are you saying that Paige needed mood altering drugs to confront her mother so strongly? She's done that plenty of times before. This was far from the first and only time in her life. Paige has always been confrontational.