S03.E12: Sacrifice

[Umbelina]

From Hulu:

A major change rocks the entire Lawrence household. Luke and Moira adjust to new arrivals in Canada.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Umbelina

[Penman61]

[Me, watching what I think is the ep's final image, an unusual profile shot of June with eyes obscured by her bonnet]:

Interesting shot. Well, at least it's not one of those damn extreme closeups we've been getting at the end of every epi--

[Cut to EXTREME CLOSEUP OF JUNE'S EYES LIKE THEY ARE TWIN PLANETS SWIMMING ACROSS THE PIXELLATED ETHER OF OUR HD WIDESCREENS]:

I hate at a subatomic level everything.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Penman61

[chocolatine]

I thought it was reckless of June to let Eleanor die. She knew that Lawrence's main motivation for defecting was to get Eleanor out of Gilead and give her access to the treatment she needed. He didn't actually care about the children one way or the other, they were just supposed to be leverage to save himself from a life sentence (or death penalty). With Eleanor gone, nothing stops him from calling the whole thing off.

I can't believe Tuello and "the Americans" are even entertaining letting Serena see Nicole. Him promising her fertility treatments is one thing; giving her access to the child of the woman she had enslaved, raped, and beaten, quite another.

Edited August 7, 2019 by chocolatine

[Umbelina]

Holy crap that was good!

I wish Waterford was in a cold damp cell, but I get it, they are trying to convince him to spill his guts the nice way first.

GO Moira!  I loved her take down of Serena!

Go Luke, at least you got one good punch in!  I wonder what was in the folder?

Poor June.  Saving 52 kids, or letting Eleanor blow the whole plan if she were taken to the hospital.  Heartbreaking.

Great episode!

[Armchair Critic]

"Cheer up. Fred and Serena are toast and you just got away with murder. All in all not a bad morning." 

Just started watching the episode but that made me smile.

[rideashire]

Canada dude has it bad for Serena. I want to like him but he's clearly got terrible taste in women. 

All in all, I thought this ep sort of dragged and felt like filler. It wasn't awful but I kept checking my laptop every few minutes and that's not a good sign.

RIP Eleanor, you were a real one.

[AnswersWanted]

So everyone made sure to tell June just how AMAZING and BOSS she is within the first 10 minutes so we didn’t miss quota. 

Rita got to fondle some potatoes and June’s finger, it’s such a good thing they aren’t wasting the actress or character on frivolous things...

Secret government agent man can go die in a fire for how he treated Moira.

I already wasn’t impressed with him, but again the show has to make a character act like a total shitty asshole for unnecessary drama, and of course it’s over Serena. 

She should have been allowed to claw her goddamn eyes out and then take Holly back home. 

At least someone was finally allowed to call Serena out a little bit for once and didn’t act like she’s some helpless little lady who was manipulated and taken advantage of. 

Seriously, they actually held up a deal with that wench to get access to Holly? And she got time alone without Moira or Luke there?

She got to hold her rape slave’s baby...?!

Fucking disgusting. 

Do you know what’s also confusing for a helpless baby, Ms. Social Worker, letting said baby be held by their mother’s rapist. 

Who the fuck would even sign off on that shit? Serena should have ZERO sway about anything, she’s a captive war criminal, not their honored guest. 

Lawrence seriously let June manhandle his wife and didn’t even intervene once? The fuck? So just how whipped does June have everybody now? 

And she let her die, just straight up let the woman die? I...okay, no.

Just. No. 

I can’t comment on June anymore, it’s all expletives now in regards to her. 

Eleanor was one of the very few left in Gilead I even cared about, ffs.

Whatever, show, at least it wasn’t Janine, at least not yet...

Exactly what 4 Seasons Hotel is Canada holding Fred and Serena in? I mean there are some Ritz Carlton’s with less amenities. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by AnswersWanted

[Umbelina]

6 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I thought it was reckless of June to let Eleanor die. She knew that Lawrence's main motivation for defecting was to get Eleanor out of Gilead and give her access to the treatment she needed. He didn't actually care about the children one way or the other, they were just supposed to be leverage to save himself from a life sentence (or death penalty). With Eleanor gone, nothing stops him from calling the whole thing off.

I think that's another reason that it took June so long to decide what to do.  You could see it playing on June's face.

Still Lawrence isn't happy with his stripped powers, and even though he has them back for the moment, he knows they could go again in a flash.

I also thought she'd be concerned she's be reassigned.  Now wouldn't be a good time for that.

Still, there is no doubt Eleanor would have spilled the plan in the hospital, especially drugged up.  Or exposed Lawrence.  There was really no choice.

6 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I can't believe Tuello and "the Americans" are even entertaining letting Serena see Nicole. Him promising her fertility treatments is one thing; giving her access to the child of the woman she had enslaved, raped, and beaten, quite another.

They seem to be hoping for a hell of a lot of cooperation.

I'm hoping soon it will be a dungeon for Fred if he keeps silent.

An hour's visit is not a biggie though, and it gave Moira a chance to tell her off~!

[HeySandyStrange]

So I guess June got her Walt White moment, eh? Watching poor, sweet Mrs. Lawrence die? Lol at this show, thinking it can pull off some Breaking Bad ripoff like the writing or acting is anywhere near as good as BB. 

And didn't stone cold June the killer think that this could backfire on her? A majority of the reason Lawrence was risking this grand escape was for his wife. A blow like this could easily make Lawrence lose his will to attempt June's cockamamie scheme. The household could've easily taken turns guarding Mrs. Lawrence. 

3 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

an't believe Tuello and "the Americans" are even entertaining letting Serena see Nicole. Him promising her fertility treatments is one thing; giving her access to the child of the woman she enslaved, raped, and beaten, quite another.

I'm hoping Spy Guy is playing the long game and is trying to get both of the Waterfords to turn on each other. He's dangling carrots over Serena's head in the form of Nicole and freedom, and setting up events to constantly remind Fred is wife betrayed him and he's fucked. I can't see a logical way Serena will get out of this scott free, as she did collude with Fred and the rest of the Gilead terrorists in their initial attacks, amount other things. I'd guess Moira and Luke are in on it, because no way in hell would they let Serena see Nicole, and I doubt Luke would've just been allowed to visit Fred it there wasn't another motive. 

Of course, the writers might sink to new lows and have Spy Guy fall madly in love with Serena and whisk her to Hawaii to live by the ocean with Nicole.

[Brn2bwild]

11 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

[Me, watching what I think is the ep's final image, an unusual profile shot of June with eyes obscured by her bonnet]:

Interesting shot. Well, at least it's not one of those damn extreme closeups we've been getting at the end of every epi--

[Cut to EXTREME CLOSEUP OF JUNE'S EYES LIKE THEY ARE TWIN PLANETS SWIMMING ACROSS THE PIXELLATED ETHER OF OUR HD WIDESCREENS]:

I hate at a subatomic level everything.

LOL, I was thinking the exact same thing.  "Wow, that last shot is so interesting, it presents such ambiguity because you can't see her e-- oh never mind, another close up."

June is stone-cold.  I can understand why she did it, but damn.  I think Lawrence suspects that if she didn't poison Eleanor, she did check on her and see she was in distress.  June should have kept her goddamn mouth shut.  

Luke should have come to Fred with a stiffer spine and better comebacks, because it should not have been that easy for Fred to get to him.  At least he got a punch in.

I'm hoping that Canada and the Americans will find a way to keep Serena imprisoned.  If she knew she would be imprisoned, and chose it anyway just for the guarantee she could see her (not really) daughter for an hour once a month, then wow. That's desperation.

[AnswersWanted]

20 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

[Me, watching what I think is the ep's final image, an unusual profile shot of June with eyes obscured by her bonnet]:

Interesting shot. Well, at least it's not one of those damn extreme closeups we've been getting at the end of every epi--

[Cut to EXTREME CLOSEUP OF JUNE'S EYES LIKE THEY ARE TWIN PLANETS SWIMMING ACROSS THE PIXELLATED ETHER OF OUR HD WIDESCREENS]:

I hate at a subatomic level everything.

Hee! That close up nearly knocked me over. 

I am just waiting for the day they finally show us the actual insides of June’s retinas. Just cut out the middle man altogether.

19 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I thought it was reckless of June to let Eleanor die. She knew that Lawrence's main motivation for defecting was to get Eleanor out of Gilead and give her access to the treatment she needed. He didn't actually care about the children one way or the other, they were just supposed to be leverage to save himself from a life sentence (or death penalty). With Eleanor gone, nothing stops him from calling the whole thing off.

Oh but don’t you know he will go through with it just because June needs him to? 

I mean he didn’t even leap to Eleanor’s defense when June had her jacked up against that wall.

Obviously BOSS June cannot be ignored nor defied now, to do so is at your own peril, just ask Eleanor...

Edited August 7, 2019 by AnswersWanted

[Andyourlittledog2]

If the director knew he was going to do all these closeup shots of the lead actress he should have cast an actress that is less off-putting in closeup. God I hate her. 

If Lawrence looked at me the way he looked at June at the cemetery I'd move into serious self-preservation mode immediately.  He was assessing her and not liking what he saw.  If I didn't hate June I'd tell her to run. 

Didn't like the episode but at least some things happened plot-wise.  I could really have done without the hero worship of June by the Marthas though.  That was way OTT.

[mamadrama]

Fred: it's always been about YOU...

Further proof that Fred has probably secretly enjoyed seeing his wife, someone smarter and more charismatic than him, stripped of many of her simple rights. He is jealous of her. I know she had a hand in planning Gilead, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that he came up with, or at least pushed, the "no reading" rule because he knew it would hurt her the most.

Serena still sucks, I just hated him more in this epi.

[mamadrama]

32 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think that's another reason that it took June so long to decide what to do.  You could see it playing on June's face.

An hour's visit is not a biggie though, and it gave Moira a chance to tell her off~!

I saw nothing on June's face other than one of the exact same looks she always sports-a pained little smirk that wouldn't be out of place in a laxative commercial or the Joey Tribiani "I smell a fart" faraway gaze.

While I might see the bigger picture in allowing my rapist's wife access to my child, even a few minutes would qualify as a "biggie." 

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

I saw nothing on June's face other than one of the exact same looks she always sports-a pained little smirk that wouldn't be out of place in a laxative commercial or the Joey Tribiani "I smell a fart" faraway gaze.

While I might see the bigger picture in allowing my rapist's wife access to my child, even a few minutes would qualify as a "biggie." 

That's a pity, I saw a lot, but then again, I agree with the critics and her costars and think Moss is doing a wonderful job in this role.  The story has failed in places, but it's picking up now, and Moss has been great in this role.

I wonder if Luke considers Holly his child now?  Or just his wife's child, or Nick's?  Interesting question.

I think Luke would allow an hour's visit if it helps bring Gilead down, and allow his daughter Hannah and his wife to get out someday.  After all, that's the goal here with Fred and Serena, as I'm sure Spy Guy explained.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Umbelina
clarity

[AnswersWanted]

With as many witnesses they have in Canada alone against Serena and Fred, why on earth would any sort of cooperation from Serena be crucial at this point? 

If anything shouldn’t it be she seeking a desperate plea deal for telling all she knows to avoid a potential death penalty trial? 

What’s with the cuddle party with Holly agreement? 

What is the show trying to say, that her testimony is a make or break factor to bring down Fred? That’s total bullshit after all we’ve seen and been told. Or has the show already forgotten about the letters, escaped Aunt, and massive protests filled with Gilead victims, again? 

Just speaking of Luke and Moira and Emily, they all have more than enough harrowing tales to expose those two for the monsters they truly are. 

8 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

I saw nothing on June's face other than one of the exact same looks she always sports-a pained little smirk that wouldn't be out of place in a laxative commercial or the Joey Tribiani "I smell a fart" faraway gaze.

Preach. 

June’s face has 3 settings. Sad smirk, mad smirk, and in-between smirk. 

I can honestly say I am tired of looking at her face, heh. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by AnswersWanted

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, AnswersWanted said:

With as many witnesses they have in Canada alone against Serena and Fred, why on earth would any sort of cooperation from Serena be crucial at this point? 

If anything shouldn’t it be she seeking a desperate plea deal for telling all she knows to avoid a potential death penalty trial? 

What’s with the cuddle party with Holly agreement? 

What is the show trying to say, that her testimony is a make or break factor to bring down Fred? That’s total bullshit after all we’ve seen and been told. Or has the show already forgotten about the letters, escaped Aunt, and massive protests filled with Gilead victims, again? 

Fred's the first commander they have, and he knows a lot, including the power structure, state of the economy, and military, names dates places.

Serena would be invaluable as a weapon against Gilead.  She is a famous author and speaker, known around the world.  If they get her to turn, the propaganda value alone could aid them in bringing down Gilead for good.

The escapees are nowhere near as knowledgeable or powerful as those two captives.  Both are potent weapons for the USA.

[tennisgurl]

God that last close up, I felt like the camera was trying to eat my fucking face! Back the hell off, show! What is your obsession with Elizabeth Mosses eyes starring into space? 

So that was Junes big Walter White moment, and while I can see her cold logic behind what she did to poor Mrs. Lawrence, there is a point where its kind of hard to root for her. First her risking the lives of tons of people to get her to Canada, then just blowing it so she can go and stare at her sleeping daughter, then that Martha dying so June can continue to be just in the vicinity of Hannah, then her mean girl bullying her walking partner to start shooting people that led to her death, and now her standing there starring while Mrs. Lawrence died. At some point, when are you kind of the asshole? 

Well, not the main assholes, those go to Serena and Fred, those two sacks of crap deserve each other. Serena and her obsession with her not even her actual child is just annoying and deranged at this point, and I hate that she can even spend a second with Holly, whos actual mother she frequently beat and held down while her husband raped her. And Fred is just awful, still acting like he was some kind of hero for helping to create Gilead, and being all shocked that Serena betrayed him after he betrayed her plenty of times. Like I said, those two deserve each other. Serena should be glad that they even let her anywhere near Holly, which I think is nuts anyway. She has zero claim to this baby! Zero!

I get why America/Canada have to play nice with the Waterfords now, hoping to get more Intel from them, but I want them to suffer more than just being in some nice hotel with some guards around, and to get read for filth over and over again. At least Moira got to tell Serena to kindly fuck herself and through in her face what kind of awful world she really created, and it actually looked like it got her for a second. I wish that Luke had come up with some better responses to Freds bullshit (oh yeah, your rape hotels and hanging of innocent people on a daily basis totally saved lives I am so sure!) but at least he got one good punch in. It will probably be tough on Luke when he realizes that June could have gotten away and found him, but didn't. 

Even beyond the fucked up morality of letting Mrs. Lawrence die, its just a bad plan. It seems like Commander Lawrence is still going to help out with the escape, but his main reason for doing all of this was to get his wife out and get her the help she needs. Now without her, and with him being devastated, that might slow him down a whole lot in pulling his connections.

[Umbelina]

I just thought of something!

If Lawrence escapes?  Fred's value to the USA will plummet, yeah, he will still know some things, but Lawrence probably knows even more and Lawrence would be willing and unable to lie.

Maybe Fred will get a much less comfy cell soon after all!

I LOVED when that female guard ordered Serena to not tell Holly that she was her mother!  New world Serena, yeah, you can read papers and get out of that no doubt annoying teal into something comfy, but no more deference for you.

I hope Moira goes back for round two.

[mamadrama]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I just thought of something!

If Lawrence escapes?  Fred's value to the USA will plummet, yeah, he will still know some things, but Lawrence probably knows even more and Lawrence would be willing and unable to lie.

Maybe Fred will get a much less comfy cell soon after all!

I LOVED when that female guard ordered Serena to not tell Holly that she was her mother!  New world Serena, yeah, you can read papers and get out of that no doubt annoying teal into something comfy, but no more deference for you.

I hope Moira goes back for round two.

That was a social worker assigned to be in the room for supervised visitation. The awesome part is that she probably wasn't even trying to throw shade, just speaking truth, and that was one of the best burns we've seen.

[AnswersWanted]

33 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Fred's the first commander they have, and he knows a lot, including the power structure, state of the economy, and military, names dates places.

Serena would be invaluable as a weapon against Gilead.  She is a famous author and speaker, known around the world.  If they get her to turn, the propaganda value alone could aid them in bringing down Gilead for good.

The escapees are nowhere near as knowledgeable or powerful as those two captives.  Both are potent weapons for the USA.

I don’t think you read my post. 

They don’t need her to turn on him out of convenience by getting her to deal with them, she needs to sell him out to save her own skin, that was the whole point I was making. 

Serena should be willing to spill her guts to save herself.

They have more than enough dirt and eye witness testimony to sink her battleship completely, all they have to do is tell her that, and make it crystal clear she either gives up all she knows or she too will face exactly the same fate as Fred. 

She is currently trapped and at their mercy, she literally doesn’t have a pot to piss in at this moment, and going back to Gilead is a certain death sentence as well.

She has no bargaining chips to play here other than telling them what they want to know to save her own sorry life. 

It shouldn’t be rocket science for this group to know that. 

The show wants to drag this shit out is all, but on the legal front it’s practically an open and shut case frankly. 

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, rideashire said:

All in all, I thought this ep sort of dragged and felt like filler. It wasn't awful but I kept checking my laptop every few minutes and that's not a good sign.

I know. My mind kept wandering to the sandwiches. They looked good and were making me hungry. They were never even served.

They keep getting rid of the best characters. 

Business as usual for June. Shocker. And she’s so BOSS now. (Youch, my eyes lodged in the back of my skull. Painful.) All through the episode I had visions of myself flying at the show runners’ throats. 

Don’t have much else to say about the episode at the moment. I’ve lost all enthusiasm for the show. I think I’ll make a sandwich. 

[Umbelina]

15 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

I don’t think you read my post. 

They don’t need her to turn on him out of convenience by getting her to deal with them, she needs to sell him out to save her own skin, that was the whole point I was making. 

Serena should be willing to spill her guts to save herself.

They have more than enough dirt and eye witness testimony to sink her battleship completely, all they have to do is tell her that, and make it crystal clear she either gives up all she knows or she too will face exactly the same fate as Fred. 

She is currently trapped and at their mercy, she literally doesn’t have a pot to piss in at this moment, and going back to Gilead is a certain death sentence as well.

She has no bargaining chips to play here other than telling them what they want to know to save her own sorry life. 

It shouldn’t be rocket science for this group to know that. 

The show wants to drag this shit out is all, but on the legal front it’s practically an open and shut case frankly. 

I did read it.  Did you read mine?

This isn't about Fred and Serena's punishment to the USA.

This is about bringing Gilead down and freeing all of their citizens.

Serena turned Fred in, she cut a deal, she doesn't have to do shit to "get out of this."  Simple logic says they are probably trying to woo her into writing more books, doing speaking tours, being a voice to help change minds, probably minds inside Gilead, and probably to also cheer up the soldiers fighting (just by knowing someone of her fame is now denouncing Gilead.)  She is famous world wide, her voice against Gilead would be a powerful tool for the USA in many ways.

FRED is the one that knows the power structure, where the weapons are, how much money they have, what the food supplies are, and who calls all the shots in each level of Gilead government AND where they live, and all kinds of shit no one now in Canada knows.

They are both incredibly valuable to the goal of bringing down Gilead.

Punishment is an afterthought.  I'm sure there is much more value they have to the USA and to the world, but those are just off the top of my head.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Umbelina
typos of course and added something

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, AnswersWanted said:

At least someone was finally allowed to call Serena out a little bit for once and didn’t act like she’s some helpless little lady who was manipulated and taken advantage of. 

That’s the only part if the show I liked, and it was far too brief. It made me yearn to have more focus on the other actors in the show. 

[Umbelina]

Oh damn, I forgot to mention the wonderful scene when dimwit Fred finally realized Serena sold him out!

I love it when those two fight, and even though Serena is an asshole, at least she's sharp enough to have fooled Fred.  I wonder if that's why she had sex with him?  Lull him more into following Spy Guy the next day?  Or one last goodbye fuck because she's been celibate for so long?  

I loved it when Fred told her he pitied the child that would have her for a mother too.  Serena got quite a few smackdowns this episode, and that was lovely.  

[jenn31]

2 hours ago, HeySandyStrange said:

Of course, the writers might sink to new lows and have Spy Guy fall madly in love with Serena and whisk her to Hawaii to live by the ocean with Nicole.

Hell no! I’ll personally start a picket line protest. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by jenn31
F U Autocorrect!

[AnswersWanted]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

I did read it.  Did you read mine?

This isn't about Fred and Serena's punishment to the USA.

This is about bringing Gilead down and freeing all of their citizens.

Serena turned Fred in, she cut a deal, she doesn't have to do shit to "get out of this."  They are trying to woo her into writing more books, doing speaking tours, being a voice to help change minds, probably minds inside Gilead, and probably to also cheer up the soldiers fighting (just by knowing someone of her fame is now denouncing Gilead.

FRED is the one that knows the power structure, where the weapons are, how much money they have, what the food supplies are, and who calls all the shots in each level of Gilead government AND where they live, and all kinds of shit no one now in Canada knows.

They are both incredibly valuable to the goal of bringing down Gilead.

Punishment is an afterthought.

That's how you see the situation, but there's been nothing that points to any of that being the case at all or even necessary.

The government dude mentioned getting her a book deal but that easily could have been merely a lie, a lure to trick her. The same way they are clearly using Holly. Or at least they better be.

They don't need Serena to do shit frankly, having both her and Fred in custody willing to talk to save themselves is plenty. 

Fred is too much of a coward to die for the cause, and the same goes for her. 

Regimes can be toppled in a variety of ways.

These groups are at war, this is not going to be a neat and tidy affair because Serena ends up giving a tell all press tour.

What minds need to be changed at this point? People either know exactly what a hell hole Gilead is by now or they don't care. It's been 5 years after all, there's no more secrets.

Whatever she does in Canada or anywhere else in the world will have no chance of reaching the dark recesses of Gilead, she's a traitor there now, and her word is basically no better than Emily's or Moira's when it comes to the general public.

In fact their tales of Gilead rape and torture and murder would definitely have a much bigger, wider affect on the general public than anything Serena has to say. 

Gilead can just as easily be taken down by them openly prosecuting and exposing the true evils of what has happened there and continues to occur during a public trial. 

Either the world will take notice and finally act or they won't. 

Serena and Fred are merely pawns now, to be toyed with and used, neither of them serve a purpose but to be manipulated by those who hold them captive.

Giving Serena so much power and sway is unnecessary, it doesn't mean the show won't go there, but if they do it's merely to reach that season 10 goal. 

[jenn31]

2 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

"Cheer up. Fred and Serena are toast and you just got away with murder. All in all not a bad morning." 

Just started watching the episode but that made me smile.

Yeah, June’s had a LOT of good mornings.

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

I saw nothing on June's face other than one of the exact same looks she always sports-a pained little smirk that wouldn't be out of place in a laxative commercial or the Joey Tribiani "I smell a fart" faraway gaze.

Get out of my head! I was about to reply an almost carbon copy of your post. It was what was going through my head as I watched the scene that the show runners were trying to brainwash us to feel sympathy for June. Eons too late, guys!

[mamadrama]

11 minutes ago, ferjy said:

I know. My mind kept wandering to the sandwiches. They looked good and were making me hungry. They were never even served.

They keep getting rid of the best characters. 

Business as usual for June. Shocker. And she’s so BOSS now. (Youch, my eyes lodged in the back of my skull. Painful.) All through the episode I had visions of myself flying at the show runners’ throats. 

Don’t have much else to say about the episode at the moment. I’ve lost all enthusiasm for the show. I think I’ll make a sandwich. 

I just read that Elisabeth Moss now even has input on camera angles and scene setting, making her basically a cinematographer/director. Color me shocked.

I didn't mind this episode for the entertsinment factor. In fact, each episode as a standalone might be okay. With zero character development, no consistency, ignorance of basic sense, and very little plot advancement for most of the season, it just hasn't worked for me as an anthonology. The cumulative sense of story is gone. It's almost become meta, though it would be by accident since I'm confident that none of the decision makers possess that kind of awareness.

For television entertainment it's fine. Boring at times, but fine. Cringeworthy at times, but fine. Ludicrous, but fine. Not the best show out there, but not the worst. It's just a TV show. What makes me mad is that it didn't have to be JUST a TV show. It could've been a real allegory, a real commentary on the past and present (and maybe a cautionary tale for the future). But it's not. I see no reason to keep comparing it to the book because they left the source material when June became a super hero and jumped over a couple of sharks. And Miller & Co are now so far up their own asses and so busy patting their own backs that they'll remain incredibly blind to what the show could've been. 

[jenn31]

1 hour ago, Brn2bwild said:

LOL, I was thinking the exact same thing.  "Wow, that last shot is so interesting, it presents such ambiguity because you can't see her e-- oh never mind, another close up."

Count me in the club too. Pitiful how we keep hanging on to that bit of hope and they get us every time. 

[AnswersWanted]

13 hours ago, ferjy said:

I know. My mind kept wandering to the sandwiches. They looked good and were making me hungry. They were never even served.

They keep getting rid of the best characters. 

Business as usual for June. Shocker. And she’s so BOSS now. (Youch, my eyes lodged in the back of my skull. Painful.) All through the episode I had visions of myself flying at the show runners’ throats. 

Don’t have much else to say about the episode at the moment. I’ve lost all enthusiasm for the show. I think I’ll make a sandwich. 

Oh oh, can I snag one? Extra cheese please? 

This show certainly doesn't skip on the cheese factor, that's for sure...had to get that one in there, heh.

I was sad to see Eleanor go, she really grew on me. 

Her hair was like the 5th most interesting character on the show as well. 

13 hours ago, ferjy said:

That’s the only part if the show I liked, and it was far too brief. It made me yearn to have more focus on the other actors in the show. 

Tell the truth.

SM just killed that scene, as teeny tiny as it was. I hate how little screen time she has gotten this year, it's criminal. 

I actually was hoping the baby meeting would turn out to be a big fakeout with Moira pushing in the stroller empty, and then with weepy Serena looking pathetic and broken, she could have oh so smugly explained why she would never, ever get to lay eyes on the baby again because her ass would be rotting in a.cold, dark prison cell soon enough for the rest of her miserable life, her freedom and dreams of motherhood gone forever. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by AnswersWanted
Playing the pronoun game.

[Umbelina]

Just now, AnswersWanted said:

That's how you see the situation, but there's been nothing that points to any of that being the case at all or even necessary.

They are already in a war with Gilead that's gone on for 5 long years.  They are outgunned should Gilead decide to use it's real weapons.  

Propaganda IS a tool.  Ignoring it would be foolish in the extreme.  They have their own "Oprah" type woman now that could do real damage.

The minds Serena COULD change are in Gilead, both bolstering the forces fighting, and turning more wives.  She might also be useful in getting the world's support, something the USA doesn't have, and does need.

1 minute ago, AnswersWanted said:

Regimes can be toppled in a variety of ways.

Yes, and this is one of those ways.

1 minute ago, AnswersWanted said:

Either the world will take notice and finally act or they won't. 

They probably won't, not overtly, but we know the world wants to know more about the power structure in Gilead, they are desperate for the information Fred has.  We learned that from the Swiss episode.

1 minute ago, AnswersWanted said:

Serena and Fred are merely pawns now, to be toyed with and used, neither of them serve a purpose but to be manipulated by those who hold them captive.

I strongly disagree that they don't serve a purpose, and of course they are pawns.  Cooperating pawns are more useful than coerced pawns though.

As I said before, Serena cut a deal, she doesn't need to give the USA anything more.  She gave them Fred, a Gilead big wig who knows everything the USA and World need and want to know.

[mamadrama]

8 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

That's how you see the situation, but there's been nothing that points to any of that being the case at all or even necessary.

The government dude mentioned getting her a book deal but that easily could have been merely a lie, a lure to trick her. The same way they are clearly using Holly. Or at least they better be.

They don't need Serena to do shit frankly, having both her and Fred in custody willing to talk to save themselves is plenty. 

Fred is too much of a coward to die for the cause, and the same goes for her. 

Regimes can be toppled in a variety of ways.

These groups are at war, this is not going to be a neat and tidy affair because Serena ends up giving a tell all press tour.

What minds need to be changed at this point? People either know exactly what a hell hole Gilead is by now or they don't care. It's been 5 years after all, there's no more secrets.

Whatever she does in Canada or anywhere else in the world will have no chance of reaching the dark recesses of Gilead, she's a traitor there now, and her word is basically no better than Emily's or Moira's when it comes to the general public.

In fact their tales of Gilead rape and torture and murder would definitely have a much bigger, wider affect on the general public than anything Serena has to say. 

Gilead can just as easily be taken down by them openly prosecuting and exposing the true evils of what has happened there and continues to occur during a public trial. 

Either the world will take notice and finally act or they won't. 

Serena and Fred are merely pawns now, to be toyed with and used, neither of them serve a purpose but to be manipulated by those who hold them captive.

Giving Serena so much power and sway is unnecessary, it doesn't mean the show won't go there, but if they do it's merely to reach that season 10 goal. 

Yeah, really. Serena's voice isn't going to change things in Gilead. Her voice will never be heard, for one thing, cause she's a woman. She couldn't change things for Gilead when she was IN Gilead...And as far as the rest of the world goes, the victims' voices would be a LOT more instrumental in raising awareness. Who the hell cares what Serena has to say? If the former handmaids and Marthas don't garner sympathy... Moira and Emily are the ones who need to go on a book tour. What would Serena add to it? 

The only reason she could possibly be useful, other than offering Fred as a sacrifice, is if she had intel on weapons, battle plans, etc. Or was able to produce documents of some kind that implicate him in war crimes, terrorism, or future attacks. They already know the awful things he's done and have witnesses to some of his atrocities.

[AnswersWanted]

Canada apparently was out gunned, now they have Serena and Fred to put on trial, the rest of the world would be much more interested in a way they haven't yet been.

They finally get to "see" the faces behind Gilead and hear all their dirty secrets firsthand.

It works both ways.

Canada has access to sensitive and damaging Gilead information they never thought would ever get out, and the regime knows already Fred and Serena are traitors so they're already panicking, everything has changed now, the playing field just got a lot more even and Gilead knows it. 

They can get plenty of whatever they want out of Serena, deal or no deal, because she should be aware working with them is her only hope for survival.

She will want to save herself, she'll do whatever they tell her to do, she's their captive not the other way around. 

And the exact same principle goes for Fred. 

All the Waterford's have left to bargain with is their lives, they're too selfish to self sacrifice, and they will obviously do any and everything necessary to save themselves.

They should be able to start a 24/7 channel where they air nothing but taped conversations with Serena and Fred as they tell all over and over again. 

If Canada doesn't exploit that to it's fullest potential then that's their great error and misjudgment, or should I say the show's rather. 

Ymmv. 

[Umbelina]

12 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Yeah, really. Serena's voice isn't going to change things in Gilead. Her voice will never be heard, for one thing, cause she's a woman. She couldn't change things for Gilead when she was IN Gilead...And as far as the rest of the world goes, the victims' voices would be a LOT more instrumental in raising awareness. Who the hell cares what Serena has to say? If the former handmaids and Marthas don't garner sympathy... Moira and Emily are the ones who need to go on a book tour. What would Serena add to it? 

The only reason she could possibly be useful, other than offering Fred as a sacrifice, is if she had intel on weapons, battle plans, etc. Or was able to produce documents of some kind that implicate him in war crimes, terrorism, or future attacks. They already know the awful things he's done and have witnesses to some of his atrocities.

She's famous, like seriously a famous woman, recognizable.  They might want to use that, because it's sensible to try.  They aren't going to try her, she cut a deal, either she's off to coconuts or she works with them.

The freedom fighters would certainly hear it, and it could bolster them.  The Martha's in Gilead most certainly have illegal radios, they could hear her, and help spread the word to others.

They have enough on Fred to hang him now, or at least jail him forever.  They needed Serena to turn him over.  Their interest, for now at least, isn't prosecution, it's his knowledge of the inner workings of Gilead.  "The black hole" as the Swiss said.

Aside from all of that, in the book

Spoiler

Gilead IS brought down from within, no mention of the world getting involved.  Also, they mention the underground railroad, and speculate that June was a part of that.

Either way, what would be cool is, after draining Fred dry of every single tidbit of information that might be valuable, outing him as a traitor, and deporting him back to Gilead, since Gilead has the death penalty, and I don't think Canada does.

Which? 

Spoiler

Fits, since the book implies that Fred is executed in Gilead.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Umbelina

[ferjy]

19 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

I actually was hoping the baby meeting would turn out to be a big takeout with Moira pushing in the stroller empty, and then with weepy Serena looking pathetic and broken, she could have oh so smugly explained why she would never, ever get to lay eyes on the baby again because her ass would be rotting in a.cold, dark prison cell soon enough for the rest of her miserable life, her freedom and dreams of motherhood gone forever. 

That would have been great. I get more pleasure reading the plot lines here than watching what these imbecile show runners want us to swallow. 

I have to admit though, it was satisfying to see the baby fussing while Serena was trying for a bonding moment. Holly wasn’t having any of it. 

[jenn31]

2 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

So everyone made sure to tell June just how AMAZING and BOSS she is within the first 10 minutes so we didn’t miss quota. 

That was so, so bad. Just when I was really liking the Marthas, they have to ruin even that. I was shaking my head “Oh Rita.”

[AnswersWanted]

22 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Yeah, really. Serena's voice isn't going to change things in Gilead. Her voice will never be heard, for one thing, cause she's a woman. She couldn't change things for Gilead when she was IN Gilead...And as far as the rest of the world goes, the victims' voices would be a LOT more instrumental in raising awareness. Who the hell cares what Serena has to say? If the former handmaids and Marthas don't garner sympathy... Moira and Emily are the ones who need to go on a book tour. What would Serena add to it? 

The only reason she could possibly be useful, other than offering Fred as a sacrifice, is if she had intel on weapons, battle plans, etc. Or was able to produce documents of some kind that implicate him in war crimes, terrorism, or future attacks. They already know the awful things he's done and have witnesses to some of his atrocities.

That's my thinking exactly. 

Serena really doesn't hold much value to anyone now. 

In Gilead she was a muted wife regulated to knitting and long walks and desperate hopes and prayers for a child.

Now she's betrayed her husband and is a certified war criminal, guilty of countless crimes, she has no money, friends, and even her celebrity is not what it once was. 

She no longer will be seen as a lauded author but a religious zealot who betrayed her country, murdered its' citizens, and enslaved and raped its' women. 

Her name is dirt, her image is ruined, she's just a shell of a person now, trying to matter to somebody. 

She's ripe for the explotation of Canada and the US. For their help is all the help she has left to hang onto. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by AnswersWanted

[ferjy]

Just now, jenn31 said:

That was so, so bad. Just when I was really liking the Marthas, they have to ruin even that. I was shaking my head “Oh Rita.”

Agree. They just would NOT say that. What pathetic writing. I’m not even going to insult 12-year-olds anymore saying they would write this crap. 

[mamadrama]

6 minutes ago, jenn31 said:

That was so, so bad. Just when I was really liking the Marthas, they have to ruin even that. I was shaking my head “Oh Rita.”

I legit had secondhand embarassment for Rita/Amanda Bruegal at that moment.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, mamadrama said:

6 minutes ago, jenn31 said:

That was so, so bad. Just when I was really liking the Marthas, they have to ruin even that. I was shaking my head “Oh Rita.”

I legit had secondhand embarassment for Rita/Amanda Bruegal at that moment.

It was weird.

I mean getting 52 kids out is badass as hell, but I wonder if it was the Martha grapevine telling them that she killed Winslow?  I'm sure they are pleased that wired shut mouths won't be a thing in Boston now, and that the guy who came up with them is gone for good.

[ferjy]

2 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Luke should have come to Fred with a stiffer spine and better comebacks, because it should not have been that easy for Fred to get to him.  At least he got a punch in.

Right, I would have preferred some witty comebacks from Luke instead. The punch is so childish like a 12-year-old (damn, did it again!) would react. 

[AnswersWanted]

9 minutes ago, ferjy said:

That would have been great. I get more pleasure reading the plot lines here than watching what these imbecile show runners want us to swallow. 

I have to admit though, it was satisfying to see the baby fussing while Serena was trying for a bonding moment. Holly wasn’t having any of it. 

I floved that, heh, little baby girl was livid her Auntie Moira left her with the strange crazy lady. 

It was such a troubling image to me as well, like Serena needed that reward of being with the baby. It was gross to me. 

5 minutes ago, jenn31 said:

That was so, so bad. Just when I was really liking the Marthas, they have to ruin even that. I was shaking my head “Oh Rita.”

I knew it had to be coming and yet it still was more awful than I thought it would be. 

They may as well have dropped to their knees and kissed her ring, I mean really. 

June should frankly be able to walk the whole.damn lot of them out of Gilead, single file, and if someone tries to stop them June can just give them the ol' June Eyeball of DOOM and say: "Do you wanna end up like dear old Eleanor? Well do ya, punk?". 

6 minutes ago, ferjy said:

Agree. They just would NOT say that. What pathetic writing. I’m not even going to insult 12-year-olds anymore saying they would write this crap. 

Not a chance.

The June worship has reached peak levels of overwhelming bullshit at this point. 

Maybe the baby actor for Holly got ahold of a crayon and the script...add a few drops of baby drool here and there and a masterpiece is born!

[jenn31]

5 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

Maybe the baby actor for Holly got ahold of a crayon and the script...add a few drops of baby drool here and there and a masterpiece is born!

I expect that baby could write a better story.

[ferjy]

3 minutes ago, jenn31 said:

I expect that baby could write a better story.

Ha! I have no doubt. 

[ferjy]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

And Fred is just awful, still acting like he was some kind of hero for helping to create Gilead, and being all shocked that Serena betrayed him after he betrayed her plenty of times.

When he sad-faced her with “How could you?” Serena should have pulled a June face and held up her pinky finger at him. “That’s how!” 

[Umbelina]

I wish, when Fred was verbally attacking Luke about doing nothing while the birthrate dropped, Luke had come back with "I fathered a child, which is a damn sight more than you can do, from what I've heard."

I mean the punch was nice, but I'd have liked to see more of a verbal take down first.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

This episode gets an A+ just for Moira telling Serena what a piece of shit she is.

[dmc]

Why does Fred’s prison cell look like the Ritz and why does Serena get visitation with a child she has no claim to? 

Sorry but no, there are firsthand testimonies from Gillead they don’t need information from these two.  This is what sucks about this show they place believability on the back burner.  I don’t have any sympathy for Serena at all.  So if this show thinks I’m interested in seeing her make a new life wherever thanks but no thanks.