Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[KAOS Agent]

Regina wants to have it all and is unhappy when she feels like she only has a piece of it. She's driven by the desire to have more. She wanted Henry. Henry was all she needed. However, once she had him and his true love, she had discovered Robin and decided that Henry was not enough. Now she wants Henry and Robin. Once she has those two things, what else will she decide she must have to be happy? Regina's stuck on having it all when no one in life actually does have it all. It's not a realistic goal. We all experience pain and sorrow and death and loss. Most of us work to limit that pain and focus on the good things. There is research about how people get depressed because their lives aren't as awesome as those of their Facebook friends or whatever else they see on social media. What these people fail to understand is that others only tend to highlight the good things on social media and not the bad. Very few people are out there talking about the general unhappiness associated with tedium of daily life. They don't talk about all the little things we do each day to fight for our happiness. No one's life is all vacations and gourmet dinners and perfect children. Regina is exactly like these people who look at the outward projection of happiness by everyone around them and feel like they're being screwed because their life isn't as wonderful as everyone else.

[Camera One]

She could just magick herself a new appearance, pretend to be Jane Doe and apply for a job at the Storybrooke Paper Company.

 

I wish they would give Regina some time to reflect on what she actually wants out of life.  That would have been a better use of the last two episodes.  Have Henry be dealing with the loss of his father to get him into Gold's shop.  The problem is the writers probably want Regina and Rumple's storylines to intersect, and thus Henry is being used as a bridge.  Even though he's a person!!!!

Edited October 26, 2014 by Camera One

[Dani-Ellie]

Regina's stuck on having it all when no one in life actually does have it all. It's not a realistic goal. We all experience pain and sorrow and death and loss.

 

This. I think it would be interesting and really good for Regina if some more powerful magical being gave her some kind of fly-on-the-wall potion or something that allowed her to peek into the lives of everyone else. Let her see an argument between Snow and Charming, let her see a pre-series Henry feeling isolated from his peers because they can't remember him from week to week, let her see a pre-series Emma in jail, all alone except for the baby in her belly. Let her see the darkness in everyone else's lives so she realizes that no one's life is all puppies and kittens. Darkness is a part of life, just like happiness is. The trick is to find one's happiness amidst the darkness and the challenges, not to banish all the darkness and challenges from ever crossing one's doorstep again.

[FabulousTater]

I think it would be interesting and really good for Regina if some more powerful magical being gave her some kind of fly-on-the-wall potion or something that allowed her to peek into the lives of everyone else. Let her see an argument between Snow and Charming, let her see a pre-series Henry feeling isolated from his peers because they can't remember him from week to week, let her see a pre-series Emma in jail, all alone except for the baby in her belly. Let her see the darkness in everyone else's lives so she realizes that no one's life is all puppies and kittens.

This would be great and maybe work if Regina was a normal human being that feels things like empathy and sympathy. But she doesn't. Regina doesn't feel anything for anyone else. She's a narcissist and a sociopath. All her feelings begin and end with "I, I, I, me, me me". Until she feels anything for someone else that is not connected to her own "happiness" or selfish desires, or even an iota of remorse, her being given glimpses into someone else's life is pointless and about as productive as showing "Schindler's List" to a goldfish.

Edited October 26, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Mari]

Until she feels anything for someone else that is not connected to her own "happiness" or selfish desires, or even an iota of remorse, her being given glimpses into someone else's life is pointless and about as productive as showing "Schindler's List" to a goldfish.

To be fair, the occasional goldfish does look very, very sad.  Maybe they have very strong feelings about Schindler's List.  ;)

[KAOS Agent]

 

Until she feels anything for someone else that is not connected to her own "happiness" or selfish desires, or even an iota of remorse, her being given glimpses into someone else's life is pointless and about as productive as showing "Schindler's List" to a goldfish.

 

Actually, you get occasional glimpses of Regina seeming to understand that sometimes other people's lives suck. Granted this is usually a background reaction from Lana and is often belied by the actual text of the show, but it's sometimes there. Like she got that Emma was shuffled from home to home in foster care and that must really suck (although she's not going to take responsibility for that), but she gets stuck on how Emma has everything she could have ever wanted, so it's all good now. Regina's understanding of what constitutes a happy ending is skewed.

 

It's interesting that you bring up Schindler's List because I kind of wonder how Regina would view the scene where Oskar Schindler is brought to tears with the guilt of how he didn't do enough. He had saved countless lives, risking his own in the process, but was still wracked with guilt over not saving more. Would Regina understand this? Or would she wonder what the hell he's so upset about? Based on what we've seen on the show, Regina would think he was crazy for the guilt. He was helping. He was being a hero. People should be endlessly grateful for everything he did (which they were) and he should enjoy the benefits of it rather than lamenting how he could have done so much more. Oskar and his reaction define true heroism and Regina would not understand that.

Edited October 27, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[InsertWordHere]

What is with the recent development of Regina calling Emma "Swan?" In Season One it was always Miss Swan and until recently I think she alternated between Miss Swan and Emma depending on how victimized by Emma she felt at that moment. Not really a complaint, I just really don't see Regina as the type to refer to someone by their last name only. I can't think of her doing that to any other characters, even those who displeased her. No "French" or "Booth" or "Nolan."

[Camera One]

Maybe she realized it's easier to say Swan with disdain since it only has one syllable compared with Emma which has two.

[Rumsy4]

So, what has Regina learnt about consequences by Marian's return? That no matter what she has done in the past, her victims will be her biggest cheerleaders, and will even join her in doing the occasional shady thing.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

So... Smash the Mirror. I'm just going to put Robin totally aside for the moment.

 

I'm glad Regina finally felt regret about something - gaslighting Henry all those years. It's small, and it's a tiny step, but I'm happy it happened. I'm even more grateful for David mentioning the "countless innocent lives" she ruined. Snow, as diluted as she is about morality in general, told Regina to keep doing good even when circumstances smack her in the face... and she actually listened. Amidst the horrible OQ stuff, I'm thankful there's finally some sense, no matter how small, going into Regina's arc.

 

Oh, and pretty much everything else Snow said was crap. As was everything Outlaw Queen related.

Edited November 17, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

I'm glad Regina finally felt regret about something - gaslighting Henry all those years. It's small, and it's a tiny step, but I'm happy it happened.

She also regrets not meeting Robin all those years ago.

 

I guess Robin trumps Henry, since if she'd met Robin she wouldn't've been evil, and would't've gotten Henry. 

 

Poor Henry.  He's trying so hard to help.

[MDKNIGHT]

It may have just been by accident but the writers finally made Regina think of somebody other than herself or Henry for a couple of minutes.  She thought about Emma and how it would suck for her to give up her magic.  This is significant because (a) normally Regina would LOVE for somebody she's mad at or thinks slighted her to suffer.  Old Regina would have cackled at Emma being powerless (since she doesn't know that Emma would be in the hat, not wandering Storybrooke)  and relish the idea of using magic ON her like giving her telekinetic wedges at least even though she no longer wants her dead.  (b) in order to give that speech to Snowing she had to be at least a little empathic.  She had to make that leap-"Gee I wouldn't like it if I were forced to give up MY powers.  Emma probably wouldn't like it either.  Gee Snowing aren't doing what's right for Emma.  Let me bother to point this out."  Old Regina just wouldn't be capable of that kind of thinking and if she HAD thought about it not being good for Emma, Regina  would have no reason to share that with Snowing because there was nothing in it for her.  For instance if Rumple was aware that somebody else was going to de-power somebody he was nuetral to, he wouldn't warn that person unless there was something in it for him.  So I think the writers wrote in a little empathy on Regina's part and that is a step forward for her.  If she ever does something decent for an adult stranger just because, she'll have matured a great deal.  Saving Marion from the Snow Monster would have counted if she hadn't done harm to Marion before and therefore owed her. 

 

I can't help it.  The relationship between Snow and Regina always makes me giggle.  Snow always reminds me that she handed down the "love Regina although it's crazy" gene to Emma and through her to Henry.  You look at all that has happened and know that no rational human being could love Regina after what she has personally done to each of those three people, but they do.  I include Emma although she has a milder case (obviously because her gene wasn't expressed until she was an adult and both Snow and Henry were exposed to Regina since childhood) she desperately wants Regina to be her friend despite Regina trying to put her in the Sleeping Curse.  She even promised Regina a Happy Ending which is crazy.  Snow OTOH goes up to 11 and I swear I'm convinced that if REGINA were under a curse that Snow kissing her on the cheek would wake her up.  Snow is JUST THAT nuts about her. Some people dislike this but I find it fascinating.  I think it is because I factor in that Snow isn't supposed to be a normal person.  She's Snow White, the eternal optimist extraodinaire.  It's kind of her THING.  Sometimes when I turn on the show I say "What kind of over the top declaration of love and support will Snow throw at Regina now?"  I truely believe that at some point Snow White will ask Regina the Evil Queen, scurge of Nations to babysit the Snowflake.  Maybe even before she lets Emma do it. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

It may have just been by accident but the writers finally made Regina think of somebody other than herself or Henry for a couple of minutes.  She thought about Emma and how it would suck for her to give up her magic.

What I took away from this was that Regina relied on Emma as the other magic user in town to partner with when she needed help. Since magic is one of her affinities, seeing Emma lose the most powerful kind of all would be a bummer. She was probably also thinking that if she lost it, then they'd all be in danger. Therefore, she took it upon herself to insult the Charmings on their "bad ideas". I do think Regina cares about Emma somewhat, but in more of a rival or frenemy way.

 

It's sad that Regina is talking more sense that most everyone on the show right now. Snow and Charming look like complete morons when Regina has to give them parenting advice.

Edited November 19, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

She thought about Emma and how it would suck for her to give up her magic.

 

 

 

What I took away from this was that Regina relied on Emma as the other magic user in town to partner with when she needed help.

 

I think it was a little bit of both. I do think Regina has come to have a bit of begrudging respect for Emma ("Emma and Henry and the two idiots" comes to mind ... she at least respected Emma enough that she didn't lump her in with the "idiots"). Yes, Emma's magic is useful but it's also part of who she is. It's part of what makes her Emma. And not only were Snow and Charming just going to allow her to remove a part of herself, Charming snarked at Hook when he asked if Emma even mentioned the method that the method didn't matter. Spells can go wrong, magical objects can backfire. Wouldn't they be concerned that Emma herself could get hurt in the magical removal process?

 

I can't believe I'm about to type these words but: thank you, Regina. Someone needed to kick Snow's and Charming's asses into gear. Of course she did it in the snarkiest and most hypocritical way possible because she's Regina but still.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Mari]

Okay.  I can't believe I'm about to reference the Episode That Should Not Be Named, but Emma allowing her to yell and belittle her for an hour might've helped, too.

 

When was the last time that someone Regina had a begrudging (albeit, miniscule) amount of respect for actually wanted Regina's friendship?  Yes, Snow sucks up regularly, but Regina doesn't really seem to respect Snow a great deal--maybe not even the little tiny bit she respects Emma.

 

She respects Rumple, but they're not exactly besties.

 

Her last friend was Maleficent, and that ended years ago in scales and blood. 

 

When Maleficent shows up, it most likely won't be congenially, since, well, dragon for thirty years, but who knows? I'm guessing she's the villain, but I could be wrong.

 

Emma took her abuse, and still wanted to be her friend.  Maybe it made an impression, and Regina now thinks of them as "friends."  (Personally, I think the impression should've been a nice, bruising kick to Regina's hind end and ego, but I don't get to make these decisions.)

[KingOfHearts]

I feel like the Regrets Tree should have been along the lines of the Tree of Guilt or something. The writers chose some poor wording here, imo. If they were trying to sell us that Regina was on her path to redemption, it was counter-productive to erase it all by saying she didn't regret any of her evil actions. Now if she didn't feel guilty because she got over her guilt, then I could buy that. But no matter how redeemed someone is, they'll always regret what they did wrong. Moving past what you did is one thing, but not wanting to change it if you could is another. I loved watching Regina kick Pan's butt and making his mind games backfire, but it was written the wrong way. It was trying to make me root for Regina not caring that she devastated a whole realm, thinking that's morally good, and that's twisted.

 

(Maybe even "guilt" is the wrong word. Basically what I mean is dwelling on the past.)

Edited November 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

If they were trying to sell us that Regina was on her path to redemption, it was counter-productive to erase it all by saying she didn't regret any of her evil actions.

This is one of those things that make me think the writers for this show are actually aliens who don't really understand human culture or emotions because usually when someone talks about not regretting bad things because something good came out of it, it's the victim -- the person the bad things happened to -- who says it. They're seeing the good that came out of the bad and realizing the pain was worth it for the outcome. It's rather tacky for the person causing the pain and getting what she wanted to be okay with having caused that pain because she got some bonuses.

 

So it would have worked for Emma to say she had no regrets about having been put in a magic wardrobe as an infant and growing up in foster care because if that hadn't happened, she wouldn't have had Henry. I could even deal with Hook saying that the centuries he spent trapped in Neverland were worth it because that meant he was still around to meet Emma. But Regina saying that she was okay with all the evil she did, including creating the curse that forced Emma to grow up alone and be separated from her family so that she had a child in jail and had to give him up for adoption, because she got an extra treat in having a son just doesn't sound the way I think they wanted it to sound. It was like "I don't regret everything I made you people suffer because I got what I wanted."

[Rumsy4]

It was like "I don't regret everything I made you people suffer because I got what I wanted."

Well... duh, right?! I mean, that's the definition of an unrepentant villain. And yet, it was played as a triumphant moment in the Show.

[myril]

Indeed, should have been more a "I regret, that I made so many people suffer, despite that I got something amazing and beautiful, I didn't dream of being able to find".

 

I doubt, Regina had any other definition of her happiness left in the Enchanted Forest than making people suffer and to indulge in their suffering - that was the purpose of the Dark Curse from her point of view, wasn't it. Then, after she encountered Owen and his father in Storybrooke, and destroyed their happiness and lives trying to force them into making her happy, she fully realized, that she was not happy despite that curse, and asked Rumple to get her a child. A child was at this point just another tool for Regina's happy ending, not a human being she cared about because of being but because of having a function for her. But then, miracle oh miracle, that child, Henry, managed to touch Regina in a way thought perhaps impossible, considering the hole the Dark Curse should have left, a seed for change. Or that is, what I guess the writers think they are telling as story, though that is not, what is shown on screen, or not as plain as can be, it is muddy.

 

Ambiguity can make sense, when seen from a writers point, if you want to leave options open, how your character is going to develop - but that would translate to me to that it were not all decided yet, if Regina will in the end turn good or (back to/ stay ) evil. The back and forth they make Regina do though lacks character depth, it's  rather flat and confusing, and not ambiguous, it is just muddy. Since season 2  there is not an ounce of doubt left for me, that Regina, the Evil Queen will get some sort of happy ending on this show (I am open for surprises), there is no ambiguity, it all feels like just a delay of what is already decided to happen. (They're doing a better job now with Rumple considering that.)

 

In season 1 I found the character of the Evil Queen / Regina even interesting because she was ambiguous, but they destroyed that in season 2 for me. Now to me this character is just a joke of a wannabe redeemed tragic hero, a goofy, fluffy and boring version with boring stories. I can't even enjoy her as camp anymore.

Edited November 22, 2014 by katusch

[KingOfHearts]

Just rewatched the scene with Snow and Regina talking in 4x08. When Regina said the book stops her free will, and that bad things happen no matter what she does, I wish Snow would have said, "Crap happens to everyone, Regina. It's how we react to it that makes us good or evil."

[daxx]

Just rewatched the scene with Snow and Regina talking in 4x08. When Regina said the book stops her free will, and that bad things happen no matter what she does, I wish Snow would have said, "Crap happens to everyone, Regina. It's how we react to it that makes us good or evil."

Obviously we need Rocket Racoon to show up and give Regina the tough line. Boo Hoo... We all have dead people doesn't mean you get everyone else killed along the way. Except replace dead people with bad things happening.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm not fine with it. I hate it. I want my damn pay-off. Pretending anything these villains do can be glossed over and whitewashed is crap, and disgusting to me. It's crap writing and it's crap storytelling.

 

I agree Regina definitely should have gotten comeuppance for her crimes, but that ship has long sailed. S2 should have been all about hordes of angry villagers burning down her house and giving disgraced peasants turns in slapping her in the face. We get one angry mob in the first episode, then they're quickly dispersed. But at this point in time, the villagers going after her just doesn't work because supposedly Regina's a forgiven saint. If they wanted to kill her, they would have done it already. But nope.

 

Regina's redemption doesn't make a lick of sense, but it's what we're stuck with. Nullifying it takes a huge chunk of story and throws it out the window. It's a big step backwards. Again I'm fine with retribution, but that's not happening at this point in the game. The writers have to make the best out of what they've been setting up for the past two and a half seasons, not totally erase it... even if its utter crap.

Edited December 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[MDKNIGHT]

I agree that they went too far to realistically redeem her and also agree with KingOfHearts that we're kind of stuck with the delusion that she is already redeemed.  I take a litte solice in that Regina could have just fireballed Snow through the bars of the cell and been done with it.  At least even cursed Regina gave her a somewhat sporting chance even if she did cheat near the end.  And I honestly did not think Regina meant she'd KILL baby Snowflake but that she'd TAKE the baby from Snow.  I could be wrong but my mind went to her having a wacked out plan of raising Neal (who she would SOOO rename) as her second son and teaching him to hate Snow because deep down she knew she wouldn't suceed in killing Snow. 

 

I like the developement that Snow talked back to Regina about how if the only villain you have to deal with is yourself you have more time for infrastructure.  I like to imagine that her standing up to Regina might make Regina respect her more.  She respects Emma at least a little (she refers to her by name while she frequently calls the Charmings the two idiots behind thier backs) and I think that may have something to do with Emma standing up to her at least initially when she came into town.

 

I also think that Regina finds comfort in Snow being Snow even though she won't admit it.  If Snow had been a normal person Regina would have been executed back in Fairy Tale Land.  I think to Regina Snow HAS to be the rock of goodness, so when Snow said -"Right now Elsa's blind faith is what screwing us over."  Regina let it slip that "Coming from you that's just frightening."  I laughed for a good 5 minutes.  It's like Regina's relying on Snow's goodness and it is upsetting to her if Snow doesn't live up to Snow's standards.  That actually may be a good sign because it shows she can at least RECOGNIZE good when she sees it.  Which can be for her, a step toward becoming good.  She took a similar baby step when she switched her plan from -How can I get away with killing Marion. to-Marion isn't even the problem so I won't go after her and expend my energy on the book's author instead.  What can I say.  I enjoy the character even though I totally agree there isn't a way in hell that her "redemption" makes any logical sense.   

[KingOfHearts]

 

I enjoy the character even though I totally agree there isn't a way in hell that her "redemption" makes any logical sense.

With this show's definition of heroes and villains, I believe Regina has just chosen the side of the angels for now. It's not so much she's interested in being good or absolved of her crimes, but she wants to be on the winning side. She wants all the rewards, cookies, and fanfare that "heroes" like Snow get. If being a "villain" got her everything she desired, then she'd be one in a heartbeat. I'm fine with her doing this, but the surrounding characters have this firm belief that she's altruistic, and in turn it makes them look like idiots. They see her crimes, they hear her insults, but they still stand by the mantra of "You've come so far!" That's what's puzzling.

 

If Regina is as self-centered as she is, then her feelings shouldn't garner sympathy from the audience.  We know she's got a hundred skeletons in her closet, and we also acknowledge that her emotions are utterly superficial. They change on a dime. With that in mind, I wish the writers would stop trying to manipulate me into feeling sorry for her. She's still evil in her heart, and they're not fooling me. It's a long con failure.

 

The writing for Regina tells you the sky is green and the grass is blue, and it's insulting to viewers to think facts can be swayed so easily in their "feeble" minds.

Edited December 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Advance35]

Finally caught up and as usual Love Regina.   The snark, the wardrobe, the crazy.   Just love it and it was really cool to see Lana won the TV Guides Fan Favorite Awards.

 

http://www.tvguide.com/News/TV-Guide-Magazine-Fan-Favorites-Awards-Walking-Dead-1089980.aspx

 

She continues to be a source of positive attention for the show.

[SquirrelWax23]

I keep having this argument with my friend. She says that Regina did not officially resign from her mayoral position and that she is mearly taking a break / on hiatus. I say that she did quit, she relinquished her position by not caring when Mary Margaret took over without telling her. She also did not object when they changed her office, another sign that she gave up and quit by not caring.

 

What do you guys think? Did she quit or did she just let things happen but will take the position back later on?

[Shanna Marie]

Did she quit or did she just let things happen but will take the position back later on?

Apparently there was a deleted scene they showed on Good Morning America the morning after the episode in question in which Mary Margaret went to Regina to get her to deal with the power outage and Regina told her she'd quit and Mary Margaret was mayor now.

 

Like all important things on this show, this significant turning point took place in Offscreenville.

[ParadoxLost]

Regina's redemption doesn't make a lick of sense, but it's what we're stuck with.

 

I've come around to accepting this.  I still don't exactly understand how but somehow the midseason finale created a paradox that I hate Robin so much for ignoring that Regina tried to execute his wife and murders entire villages that I now think Regina is too good for him.  I guess that is acceptance that Regina is redeemed.

[Mathius]

I feel like the Regrets Tree should have been along the lines of the Tree of Guilt or something. The writers chose some poor wording here, imo. If they were trying to sell us that Regina was on her path to redemption, it was counter-productive to erase it all by saying she didn't regret any of her evil actions. Now if she didn't feel guilty because she got over her guilt, then I could buy that. But no matter how redeemed someone is, they'll always regret what they did wrong. Moving past what you did is one thing, but not wanting to change it if you could is another. I loved watching Regina kick Pan's butt and making his mind games backfire, but it was written the wrong way. It was trying to make me root for Regina not caring that she devastated a whole realm, thinking that's morally good, and that's twisted.

As I said before, the scene was TRYING to show that Regina had regrets, which is why the tree bound her at first, but she rationalized it all away through her crazy rationalizing skills that she's always had, shown at the start of the episode in flashback when she rationalized away murdering her father with "he would have understood". It wasn't saying she never regrets anything ever (other episodes both past and future contradict that notion), but the bad wording made it come off like that.

[Advance35]

Once again LOVE Regina/Lana's wardrobe.   Basic black should NOT look so sleek and chic all  the time but she pulls it off.   In OUAT world I'd be tempted to go dark myself if I could have access to the wardrobe.

 

Not sold on this Author plot yet but I'm willing to see where it goes.

 

LOVED Regina's interaction with Ursula.  It was like two high school mean girls who were in different cliques met up again. LOL.  I think Regina knows Ursula is without her powers and that's why she doesn't feel intimidated by her the way she was in the brief Urusla mention we had in the past.

 

"The Sea Bitch", "Squid"

 

LOVED Cruella's look when she thanked Regina and told her "You won't regret it."

[KingOfHearts]

 

So I don't find anything inconsistent about Regina and Henry's quest to find the author. To Regina, losing Robin indicates that despite all of her changes and heroic actions, she's still cast as the Evil Queen in the Book of Fate.

I agree this plot is hardly out of character for Regina. She has always, from the very beginning, blamed her unhappiness on others. That's been a core part of her character. The writers have said the premise of the show was the question of whether or not the Evil Queen could find her happy ending in another world. She's sick of losing and can't understand why those darn heroes always seem to beat her. I actually do like that her ideals are a bit psycho.

 

What I find unbelievable, however, are the reactions of others to Operation Mongoose. Henry could swear up and down that his mother was evil and that she caused her own problems. Nowadays, it's what the book did to her. The very object Henry idolized he's now against because of some random theory his mentally unstable mom thought of on the spot after an intense break-up. I could probably forgive that because, well, Henry is Henry. He's about as consistent as the stock market.

 

But... Emma?! Her whole philosophy in life is to make your own way, push back and break the paradigm. To be totally fine with predestination out of a kids book is as bizarre as it gets for this character. It's straight up plot convenience, plain and simple. Could we foster in some possible drama out of her disagreeing? No, we need a blooming friendship because you know... Regina! 

Edited March 7, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Zuleikha]

From the Writers thread in a brief exchange about Regina's redemption arc ..

I'd actually be very curious to read your counter argument, because I've been genuinely trying to view Regina's character as objectively as possible, but I haven't read any pro-Regina arguments that have been logical, factual, or not dripping with SQ bias that have made me change me mind about her character right now.

 

I want to stress that what I want to write isn't a counter-argument [to the notion that her redemption arc has been poorly done] but rather an alternate POV. I don't want to convince anyone that their way of interpreting Regina's character development is wrong and my way is right because I don't think that's true. 

 

For me, it's more about sharing why Regina's character and character arc speaks to me so strongly because I see her struggle/journey in a way that seems to be very different from a lot of people in Once fandom. I see her as a very active, engaged character whose life has been about creating her own fate and destiny against powerful, very real opposition. To me, the tragedy of the Evil Queen in the Enchanted Forest was that she failed. She did become the evil monster Cora and Rumplestiltskin manipulated her to be and who she never, ever wanted to be. The joy of Storybrooke is that by finally learning to love Henry unselfishly, Regina was able to start healing, reclaim herself, and eventually build friendships/emotional connections to other people. I love that the show has portrayed her journey as long and faltering but consistent.

 

So the tl;dr version is that Regina's story gives me a lot of hope, and I'd like people to see that being a Regina fan isn't necessarily about thinking Lana cries pretty or Emma/Regina should be a couple or hating Snow (not that I judge anyone's reasons for stanning! Especially if they're stanning Regina :)) 

[Dani-Ellie]

I agree that Regina's arc has been great for Regina, but that's kind of my exact problem with it: it's only great for Regina. Her victims, on the other hand, are getting nothing.

 

Regina is changing, to be sure, but in my eyes nowhere in that change has she seen the value in apology and atonement. Like, does she still have a vault full of hearts? Has she even tried to figure out who they belonged to and return them? Has she apologized to Snow or Charming or Emma for ruining their lives? Because Emma saves a woman's life in the past, inadvertently messes up Regina's love life, and that's worthy of a "You ruined my life!" but casting the Dark Curse and putting Emma's parents in a position where they had to send her through a magical wardrobe alone or let her be killed somehow isn't ruining Emma's? Regina's actions stole three decades of togetherness from the Charming family and stole a happy and loving childhood from Emma and I've yet to see her offer even a token apology for that.

 

I try not to compare characters but a proper redemption arc for me is more along the lines of Hook's, where the villain recognizes that they were wrong and tries to make up for it. Sometimes that is righting the wrong they did (like we saw with working to release the fairies from the hat and again this past episode with Ursula). Sometimes all that can be given is the offer of an apology (like we saw in "The Jolly Roger" with Not!Ariel). (And this also means being okay with not being forgiven. Some people will probably never forgive her, and she needs to recognize that their anger is also valid.)

 

Maybe I'm just being impatient and Regina's lightbulb moment is still coming. But it's not working for me as a redemption arc as of yet because we have seen her do some really atrocious things but, as far as I'm concerned, we have not seen her put in the work to make up for it. She's just decided that since she's good now, that means everyone should just accept that she's no longer the Evil Queen. But since she hasn't offered anyone but Henry and Belle (that I can recall) even the slightest "I'm sorry," I don't understand why they should automatically trust her. She destroyed these people's lives, and I actually like that the show does have various people calling her out on that.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[KingOfHearts]

Regina is my favorite character on Once. I'll just put that out there first to get the bias out in the open. I've liked her since the beginning for her snark, beauty, strong will and cleverness. I have always been on board with her redemption arc, and at some points I can relate to her. I know what it's like to feel left out or that you're not good enough, yet someone else seemingly is. She has deep insecurities that I definitely sympathize with completely.

 

I can give the show a pass at Regina's past crimes because it's not real. Personally I don't care for any of the characters she hurt, so I don't feel like there needs to be retribution or justice to be held. But I totally understand people who don't like Regina feeling like they've been jipped, and they definitely have been.

 

So here's how I see it - if you like Regina as a character, good for you. You happen to like the character that gets the most screentime, effort and development. If you don't, then this show will make you stabby much, much more. After reading these forums, I've seen both sides of what viewers think of her. The most objective answer I can give is that it all just depends on personal taste. I will agree the morality is terribly skewed and downright wrong, but at the same time this is TV fantasy and some may be able to handwave it better than others.

 

And by the way, I know some used to like Regina or can tolerate her in small amounts. Not everyone hates her or loves her. To really enjoy watching this show week-to-week I think you have to be happy with her getting 80% of the story/screentime, and many aren't.

Edited March 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Zuleikha]

Regina's lack of formal apologies is actually one of the things I love about the way her redemption's been handled. It's very in character for her. She's not someone who dwells in regrets. 

 

However, I do think we've seen Regina demonstrate self-awareness and shame about what she's done. She had her speech to Emma about Henry only having the opportunity to see her live as the Evil Queen but let him see her die as Regina at the end of 2B (paraphrased because I don't have time to look up transcripts right now); multiple moments in Neverland where she talked about her role being to do the dirty, evil things; a wistful conversation with Robin about the what-ifs if she'd chosen love over evil and a moment I LOVED for Lana's face and line delivery when she told Robin that he really, really should be afraid of her as they were preparing for the Shattered Sight spell.

 

To me, that's really what I look for in a redemption arc. I don't care about characters offering apologies for things that can't be apologized for. What Regina did as the Evil Queen is unforgivable. And she knows that. But she can be different moving forward and that's what she's focusing on (and what I'm focusing on). I don't see her as being significantly different from Hook, who backslid completely when he thought he'd lost Emma and only offered any kind of apology/righting of wrongs when the opportunity to do so came to him (and in the case of Ursula, he had an ulterior motive of getting information).

 

I also think we have seen her put in the work to make up for what she's done, which if I ever do write my alternate POV take on her arc, is definitely one of the things I'll write a lot about! 

[Dani-Ellie]

Personally I don't care for any of the characters she hurt, so I don't feel like there needs to be retribution or justice to be held.

 

If we're going to see Snow and Emma apologize for the things they did to Regina, a fair and balanced narrative would have Regina apologize for the things she did to them.

 

Regina's lack of formal apologies is actually one of the things I love about the way her redemption's been handled. It's very in character for her. She's not someone who dwells in regrets.

 

While that may be true, it's still kind of all about Regina. Sometimes the hurt party needs to hear the I'm sorry, whether the person who hurt them dwells in regrets or not.

[Mari]

Regina's lack of formal apologies is actually one of the things I love about the way her redemption's been handled. It's very in character for her. She's not someone who dwells in regrets. 

 

 

To me, that's really what I look for in a redemption arc. I don't care about characters offering apologies for things that can't be apologized for. What Regina did as the Evil Queen is unforgivable. And she knows that.

She dwells plenty on other people's crimes to her. If she doesn't dwell on regret, why does she demand others do? 

 

If she knows it's unforgivable, and she should therefore not expect an apology or forgiveness, why does she expect the victims of her unforgivable acts to be her friends?  Why is she annoyed and make comments about "over now" if she truly thinks what she did is shameful?

 

Because to me, that doesn't come across as shame and trying to move on.  It comes across as "No one's feelings matter but mine.  And maybe Henry's."

 

It's not just a lack of formal apologies.  It's a lack of trying to do anything to improve the lives of her victims.  She's not returned any hearts.  She's not tried to improve the lives of anyone she's victimized. 

 

I don't need groveling.  But the occasional act where she is clearly trying to at least help some of her victims would show some of what you're saying she feels.

 

Instead, she shows up and demands their help.  Because she wants to be happy, and it hasn't happened yet.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Mari

[Zuleikha]

While that may be true, it's still kind of all about Regina. Sometimes the hurt party needs to hear the I'm sorry, whether the person who hurt them dwells in regrets or not.

However, I think in this case it's more that some audience members want to see it rather than that Snow, Charming, or Emma want to see it. They have been working with Regina and friendly with Regina since 3A, at least. They seem to be well past it.

 

Because to me, that doesn't come across as shame and trying to move on.

Then that's how it comes across to you, and that's fine. I don't think Regina does expect her victims to be her friends--although I do think she wants to be accepted--, but as I said above, I have no interest in persuading anyone that my interpretation of the story is the one true interpretation. 

[KingOfHearts]

Believing Regina should get her happiness or that's she justified is illogical and unfair to Snow, Emma and all of her victims. No amount of apologies or redemption can fix the pain she's caused in the lives of thousands. In reality, she would be corrupted beyond hope and sentenced to death for her crimes. She's a psychotic murderer who should never be around a child again.

The narrative is imbalanced in her favor, the writers are eternally enamoured with her, and the universe rotates around her feelings. No matter how bad someone's suffering is, hers is always portrayed as worse. She's a classic Mary Sue, flawed by the very efforts meant to solidify her as a three-dimensional character. More time is given to her tears than entire relationships.

Yet, despite all this, I still find her enjoyable to watch. I don't, however enjoy the constant woe she's put under. I want to see strong, sassy, get-er-done Regina. Not Queen Woegina of Wails.

[OnceUponAJen]

Even if Emma, Snow, Charming or any of her other victims don't require or want an apology, as a viewer in order for me to feel any sympathy for her or to buy into her redemption, I need to see some remorse or regret for her past actions. Otherwise, I feel like at times I'm watching an overgrown adolescent with a massive sense of entitlement and mood swings. A little contrition would look good on her, and help more of the audience connect with her. I really would like to root for her!

Edited March 28, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[Mathius]

I will always maintain that the biggest flaw in Regina's redemption arc was what 2B did to her in both past and present.

In S1, she was a standard fairy tale villain in the past for the most part and only actively went up against Snow and Charming. Her worst deeds were the murders of Leopold and Henry Sr., neither of which we knew or cared that much about (and no, I actually don't hold the Blind Witch thing against her since there is no definitive proof that the bones were those of kids she'd sent there. She CLAIMED to have sent kids there in the past, but that can't be verified and seeing as she was trying to flatter Hansel and Gretel at the moment, saying they're special for making it out when no-one else did sounds like a good lie to tell.) In the present, the worst she did was...well, the Graham situation.

In 2A, she began to redeem herself in the present and did nothing more in the past. Everything she did in S1 (even killing Graham, if it was actually followed through with) COULD be realistically atoned for and forgiven if she held her course. But then 2B made her worse than ever on all fronts: for the present there was working with Cora to destroy the town, helping to kill Joanna, trying to mindwipe Henry into loving her, trying to blow up the town and escape with Henry, etc. And for the past, there was orphaning Owen and being shown as an active mass-murdering dictator when she was the Evil Queen, as opposed to just a fairy tale villain after Snow White specifically.

After all that, it has become a real stretch to see her ever actually redeeming herself, and it's only made worse when we STILL keep getting flashbacks reminding us that she tortured peasants, wanted to kill a baby, led people to their deaths while laughing at their fear, burned people at stakes, and put innocent animals into 100-year sleeps just to spite a child. Yeah, THAT'S a person I want to see live happily ever after. Only if she had PROFOUND remorse in the present day would I be able to buy a redemption...and as everyone has pointed out, she isn't even close to having this. She's more concerned with getting people to "drop the E word" and making sure Henry doesn't hear about her past crimes than actually reflecting on those past crimes and WHY she committed them...namely, her massive sense of entitlement that she STILL HAS, as evidenced by her Author quest.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

It comes across as "No one's feelings matter but mine.  And maybe Henry's."

I think that's the key. Her real problem that all other problems stem from and that keeps her from being actually redeemed in my sight is that she remains utterly lacking in empathy. She doesn't seem to have made the connection between the pain she feels and the pain others feel, and especially hasn't made the connection between the pain she feels and the pain she's caused. When other people react the way she reacts, she thinks they're terrible, but she doesn't apply that same standard to herself. I don't expect her to necessarily go around in sackcloth and ashes, constantly miserable because she knows how much pain she's caused, but I do expect her to have a moment of awareness when she does run up against a situation that brings up something she's done to someone else.

 

For instance, the return to the Enchanted Forest, when she was going on and on about her pain in being separated from Henry, ripping her heart out, wanting to put herself under a sleeping curse, etc. It doesn't seem to have clicked for her that this was exactly what she put Snow through before or that Snow was going through this now, that Snow was being separated from her daughter for the second time. She let Snow comfort and encourage her without ever considering Snow's feelings. That would have been prime time for an apology.

 

She supposedly loves Robin, and he hasn't wronged her in her eyes, so there isn't the same baggage there as she has with Snow, but she's equally lacking in empathy for him. Not too long after hearing him talk about the pain and suffering he went through when he lost Marian, she learns that she was the person who took Marian away from him. This never seems to sink in. She's far more focused on her suffering in being separated from Robin and her anger at Marian for being alive and at Emma for ruining her life. She never has that "Oh God, I'm the one who hurt him!" feeling.

 

Likewise, she resents Emma for ruining her life in saving Marian, destroying her happiness by taking her boyfriend away from her, without making any connection with what she did deliberately in killing Graham to keep him away from Emma. You'd think a truly reformed person would have that "oops" moment and recognize that maybe what she's feeling now is what Emma felt then, and she did it to her. It's a similar case when she let Snow comfort and reassure her about Robin with the example of her and David, when she deliberately brought up a "wife" for David to keep them apart. She's feeling what she did to others, but doesn't make the connection.

 

Not murdering people and not cursing people isn't being good and definitely isn't being heroic. It's the baseline for being a human being and not a monster. To make it to "good," you need a conscience, and that requires actually thinking about how other people might feel. She might feel bad about her past acts, but that only shows up in her not wanting them acknowledged, not in really understanding why those acts were wrong because of how they hurt people. And I really doubt the redemption of someone who thinks that the universe is out of kilter if she's not getting everything she wants, just because she stopped murdering people a year ago.

[KingOfHearts]

Stepping back from the writing aspect, I think Regina's redemption's biggest problem is that she's still self-centered. She wants to be good for her own benefit, not the benefit of others. It may be a start toward redemption to act like that, but we're almost three seasons into her arc and she's been hailed a hero. Heroes are people who sacrifice themselves for the good of others. They're people who put their lives on the line to make sure those they love are safe. True heroes aren't out for their own glory or to get what makes them happy.

 

When Snow was out to rally her kingdom against the Evil Queen, she wasn't doing it to be popular. She wanted to save her people from a tyrant. When Emma broke the curse, she wasn't trying to be anything special. She originally wanted to save Henry, then she kissed him as an act of love when she thought he was dead. Charming wasn't out to become King, he just wanted to save Snow and support her. But with Regina, when she does a minimally good deed, she wants all the bells, whistles, cookies and parades. That's her fatal flaw - pride.

 

She's so obsessed with getting her circumstances in order that she doesn't care how many people she has to mow over to get there. It's like she's totally blind to people whose names don't end with "Mills". I will say she's made a little improvement in 4B with apologizing to Geppetto and not being a jerk to Emma.

Edited March 28, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Zuleikha]

She wants to be good for her own benefit, not the benefit of others.

 

This is the type of statement that I think is just incorrect. Regina's sacrifices get disregarded because she's often just cleaning up the messes she's made (or she and Rumple have made). However, given that those sacrifices included her son, her safety, and in intent if not reality, her life, I think they should still affect how her character is evaluated just as Rumple's sacrifice of his life with Pan does count for something to me. Also, Regina gave Henry and Emma happy memories of a wonderful life when doing so changed nothing for her. She worked to save Marion's life when doing so was actively detrimental to her. She forced Rumple to let Zelena live because Regina thought Zelena deserved a second chance, even though Zelena was most likely to come after Regina if that second chance was squandered.

 

when she does a minimally good deed, she wants all the bells, whistles, cookies and parades.

When? When has she wanted anything equivalent to bells, whistles, cookies, and parades? She wants the possibility of a happy ending, which is essentially saying she wants hope. She explicitly questioned whether she deserved it when she was talking with Snow in Smash the Mirror. Throughout 4A when Regina explicitly didn't have hope, she still tried to save Marion and do the right thing with Robin. 

 

Regina has certainly desired acceptance and been sad when she hasn't gotten it, but she's never demanded it. Even in 2B, when Cora framed her for Archie, Regina was obviously upset, but she didn't use force against anyone, not even when Emma, Snowing, and Blue tried to capture her. In Regina's first encounter with Cora, she was very understanding of why people didn't trust her (Cora: Temporarily. So you could see what these people really think of you. Regina: You made an airtight case anyone would believe in.). Regina only returned to Cora at the end when Cora played on her fears about permanently losing Henry to Emma and Regina's desire for love/acceptance from Cora (I think that scene was poorly written to happen too fast, but I do think the emotional beats were solid). 

[Lieutenant]

Can I just say that I've really enjoyed reading this thread over the last day or so?  Normally I stay away from it for my sanity, lol.  Y'all have brought up some very interesting and thoughtful points on Regina, from both sides.  Initially I thought she was a good villain, and loved to hate her like I do Rumple.  But as they've tried to redeem her, she's really turned me off.  So much so that I grit my teeth and make myself sit through a lot of her scenes.  What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right?  I think mostly what I can't stand about her now is the way she treats people.  If she's truly wanting to turn her life around and be a hero, I feel you've got to see some remorse and a change of heart outwardly.  Like others have said up thread, it just comes across as "oh yeah, I was pretty awful.  But whatever, the past is in the past. C'est la vie. Everyone's cool with that, right?"  What?!  And when she continues to harangue Emma over things like bringing Marian back, telling her shes ruined her life - that sends me into blinding rage territory in a nanosecond.  Call me when you get some actual perspective in your life, Regina.  I think ruined lives would be something more along the lines of dark curses, forcefully orphaning children/splitting families, and killing countless. 

 

I have a few questions for the handful of Regina stans on here.  Just wondering how you puzzled out these things in your mind.  What do you think about her breaking a curse/TLKing w/o a heart?  How is it ok for her to somehow use light magic (Emma's magic) with no heart?!  *the mind, it boggles*  How do you feel when she berates her victims, like the example above w/Emma from 4x05?  Do you think Regina's made efforts to make amends for her past actions?  How so?  How do you think it shows redemption/change of heart that she still believes she just needs to force an author to rewrite her story so she can get a happy ending, when someone like Killian has already found his happy ending on his own?  I know everyone has their likes and dislikes, and there's no changing that.  I don't think I'll ever like Regina.  And ultimately, I think that's more the fault of the writing team.

[Dani-Ellie]

Back in season one, I loved to hate Regina. She was an awesome villain, watching her machinations was fun, and even seeing the little chinks in her armor (like her nightmare where Emma tied her to the apple tree) was great. I was even on board with the beginning of her redemption arc in the beginning of season two, where the things she did came back to bite her in the ass (in the form of Henry telling her he didn't want to see her and people not necessarily being willing to welcome her with open arms). Because news flash, Regina, your actions have consequences, too, and I think she needed to recognize that. If you hurt people and break their trust, it's going to take time and work to earn it back. That's not people being mean, that's just life, because look how hard Snow had to work to regain her trust.

 

The problem I have is that when she backslides, it's not a one-step-forward, two-steps-back process. It's a complete 180, so we go from Regina recognizing that if she wants to be in Henry's life, she can't continue to hurt the people he loves to Regina spending half a season trying to kill the kid's entire family. We had that great speech she gave Tink in Neverland where she does allow that she made her heart dark with her choices but then six episodes later, she scores a victory by admitting she doesn't regret any of what she did to make her heart dark because it got her something in the end. Instead of recognizing that she had a hand in the whole Robin/Marian fiasco by separating them in the first place, it's all Emma's fault for bringing Marian forward and reuniting them. And then she spends half an episode trying to figure out how to kill Marian in a way that she won't be the obvious culprit.

 

So yes, she makes progress, but my issue is that for me, that progress then becomes undone by her words and actions a few episodes later.

 

 

 

I don't think I'll ever like Regina.  And ultimately, I think that's more the fault of the writing team.

 

Absolutely. Don't try to tell me she's a hero while continuing to flip-flop her from hero to villain based on whichever one you want her to be. And don't try to sell me on how Regina is the biggest victim ever if you're also going to show me all the various and sundry ways she victimized other people.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Mari]

And don't try to sell me on how Regina is the biggest victim ever if you're also going to show me all the various and sundry ways she victimized other people.

I know that not all the Regina fans feel that way, but I do remember interview comments from the show where things like that were said--that Regina was the most tragic/victimized character on the show.  I've looked for them, but can't find them again.

 

Can anybody remember where the show team gave that impression?

[Dani-Ellie]

The most recent one I recall is here, specifically this:

 

 

In contrast, Regina's last act of love was sacrifice when she let Robin Hood (Sean Maguire) go out of Storybrooke. Will her actions make her cause more sympathetic to The Author?
Kitsis: If there's anyone on the show who's kind of gotten the short end of the stick, it's Regina. She did horrible, horrible things but she has continually done the right thing. She's definitely somebody who's trying to redeem themselves.
 

 

I do agree that Regina is trying, but I take exception to "continually" doing the right thing (because attempting to kill your son's entire family is the right thing?) and vehemently disagree that out of everyone on the show, Regina's the one who's gotten the short end of the stick. There are a few other main characters I can think of who have gotten shorter ends of the stick, and at Regina's hands to boot.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Joanh23]

of the 2 show runners Eddy is definitely Regina's biggest fan, he constantly mentions that scene at the end of 2A where the Charmings go to dinner and leave Regina behind - i think he took the fan response as carte blanche that no matter what Regina did (and as long as Lana looked sad or better yet shed a tear or 2) the fans will always forgive her. 

[Shanna Marie]

The problem with the no apologies, no remorse because that's just not who she is stance is that it makes her a hypocrite because she doesn't accept behavior similar to hers in other people. When she felt that Snow contributed to Daniel's death, she retaliated by arranging the murder of Snow's father, attempting to have Snow killed multiple times, attempting to kill the man Snow loved, attempting to kill Snow's newborn daughter, casting the Dark Curse and framing Snow for murder. She's yet to give an "oops, my bad, what was I thinking?" about any of it. But when Snow kills Cora after learning that Cora murdered her mother and after Cora murdered the nurse who raised her after her mother's death (and not even really killing entirely out of vengeance but also because Cora was an immediate threat), Regina sees it as a horrible crime, lets Snow grovel to her, and still calls it a "murder," which she brings up repeatedly, and only lately has she managed to add the grudging "it's complicated" when admitting that Cora murdered Snow's mother. So Regina's reign of terror in response to Daniel's death was apparently justified, but Snow killing Cora was murder for which Regina can't ever really forgive or forget. It would have been a lot easier to take if Regina had at least been consistent in the "vengeance is justified" attitude and reacted to Snow's apologies about Cora's death with something like "well, I had your father killed, so I guess we're even." The most she's been able to manage is admitting that Cora killed. Not a word yet about her own crimes, while still blaming Snow.

 

As for the idea of redemption and repentance, there was a good column about that this morning in our local newspaper (a reaction to our local football team signing a player with some serious character issues that has caused some major outcry and a lot of debate over whether he counts as "redeemed"). This part could easily have applied to Regina:

Redemption is not cheap grace; redemption involves saying, "I am responsible for repairing what I broke." As well, "I need to tell the truth about what I have done." And finally: "I must acknowledge that harm has been done and say I'm sorry and mean it. I must change." Repentance -- active change of wrongful behavior -- brings about the healing of the human spirit. That is when redemption might be found.

 

All it would take for me to turn the corner on Regina is for her to have at least one genuine moment with Snow and/or Emma in which she acknowledges what she's done to them and seems to actually feel bad about it.

 

Or I could even like her current behavior as part of being a selfish narcissist and owning it if the show and the other characters didn't treat her like such a precious special snowflake of victimhood. A villain who's trying to go good getting frustrated about not having everything suddenly start going her way right now and setting off on a crazy scheme to make some cosmic Author rewrite her story could actually be kind of a fun plot if the other characters and the show itself didn't take it seriously. It's the fact that the show is treating this like a serious plot arc and everyone else acts like this is justified and sane for Regina, with no one taking the "well, maybe you'd be happier if you ever thought about someone other than yourself" approach, that's ruining Regina as a character.