Regina, the Evil Queen: The Only Happy Ending Will Be Hers

[ShadowFacts]

 

So basically for people who dislike the character.  Any positive action she makes is for her image and any negative behavior is her 'true' self? Right?

 

Negative behavior is her true self, yes, she is a narcissistic sociopath with a trail of dead bodies to prove it.  Positive action taken by such a person is always going to be suspect as to motive because of the long history of extreme, treacherous, homicidal behavior.  Hence the old saying, you've made your bed, now you must lie in it.  Nobody with a healthy sense of self-preservation is going to be trusting Regina to do the right thing any time soon, and she earned that. 

[Shanna Marie]

I think the main thing holding Regina back from real redemption, and the reason I'm not ready to consider her truly redeemed, is that she is such a narcissist that she's not really capable of empathy. She isn't able to see things from other people's perspectives, so she's stuck in the mode of believing that her pain is the worst possible pain without considering that anyone else might feel similar pain, and she definitely isn't yet making the connection between the pain she feels, the pain other people might feel, and the fact that she caused that pain for other people.

 

I'm not even going to get into her pre-redemption behavior, but look at the way she was upon the return to the Enchanted Forest, after she made her big sacrifice. She ripped her heart out and was burying it, then moaned to Snow White about how unbearable her pain was in having to leave behind a child -- while being totally oblivious to the fact that she was talking to someone else who'd also lost a child, for the second time, and the first time was her fault. She was stuck in the mode of thinking her pain was so much worse without being to make the connection that Snow might be feeling the same thing or that she'd been the one to cause this pain for Snow. A truly redeemed person would have had a lightbulb moment there -- oh, this is what you went through, this is what I did to you, I'm so sorry. Instead, Regina was stuck in focusing on her own suffering and oblivious to what others were going through.

 

We don't yet know how the Robin/Marian thing would play out and if what she said to Emma was just a kneejerk immediate emotional reaction, but it doesn't seem like she was capable of feeling any joy for Robin in finding his wife again or Roland for having his mother back. She was entirely focused on her own loss and, again, not making the connection that she made a lot of people feel this way by taking away their loved ones, that she was the one who'd been responsible for Robin's pain, that she'd disrupted Emma's own early stages relationship by killing the guy. Instead, to her the pain she's feeling is the only thing that matters. And until she's capable of empathy, of recognizing other people's suffering and caring that they're suffering (instead of enjoying it), she isn't going to be truly redeemed or reformed because it will be too easy to backslide and too hard to make the wrong choices. It's so much easier to act in a way that eases or avoids the suffering of others when you're capable of considering their suffering. That's why most of her good deeds so far have been self-serving. They've really been about easing or avoiding her own pain, not about making things better for other people. At least she doesn't seem to have been very sadistic for a while and hasn't been enjoying other people's pain too much, which is an improvement.

[KingOfHearts]

One major improvement that the show hasn't touched on is that Regina is finally sharing Henry and accepting there are other people in his life. She's not out to be the sole authority on him like she used to be, but rather she's finally collaborating with the Charmings on him. It's a stark difference from her wanting to kill them all to be Henry's only guardian in S1/S2.

That's one thing S3 did right in Regina's redemption - she's willing to work with the Charmings now.

Edited August 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FavFable]

Regina has done selfless things before, don't get me wrong. She protected Snow from her mother's ghost, for one. I didn't see any evidence particularly in Kansas that said she was there to save the baby. We did, however, see how alarmed she was in Bleeding Through when she found out Zelena was going to erase her from history.

 

Like Mari said, she's grown considerably from the way she used to be. Underneath the drama, I see changes in her overall character, it's just subtle at times. I just tend to appreciate sincere words and gestures more than hero deeds.

 

I'm one of Regina's fans, by the way! :)

Thanks for answering the question  :) I appreciated the honest answer.

[Rockybeach]

I disagree. I don't think Regina is going to backslide. I think she is going to consider going back to her old ways, but she will decide to move forward. She has her son and she will focus on being a mother and being happy with him back in her life.

 

I do agree with you about Marian. I do not think she will be around very long. I am curious. Why do you think she will die?

I am curious. Why have you decided she hasn't taken any responsibility or doesn't consider other people's feelings?

I think the temptation will be there for her to return to magic and use that to get her way. It worked before, but I am not sure that she will do it again, but I am not completely sure she won't. I am on the fence  :) I think losing everything again will make her consider drastic moves.

 

Marian will die because she is out of time. She doesn't belong in SB. I don't think a character can cheat death. If they were supposed to die, I think they will.

The only question I have is what does she change in the time she is there. Any negative changes should be held against Emma, but I sure the writers will ignore it, as usual.

[Mari]

I think the temptation will be there for her to return to magic and use that to get her way. It worked before, but I am not sure that she will do it again, but I am not completely sure she won't. I am on the fence  :) I think losing everything again will make her consider drastic moves.

 

Marian will die because she is out of time. She doesn't belong in SB. I don't think a character can cheat death. If they were supposed to die, I think they will.

The only question I have is what does she change in the time she is there. Any negative changes should be held against Emma, but I sure the writers will ignore it, as usual.

Responding in the Emma thread.

[kili]

The only question I have is what does she change in the time she is there. Any negative changes should be held against Emma, but I sure the writers will ignore it, as usual.

 

Responding in the Thread for All Seasons.

[FavFable]

I think the temptation will be there for her to return to magic and use that to get her way. It worked before, but I am not sure that she will do it again, but I am not completely sure she won't. I am on the fence  :) I think losing everything again will make her consider drastic moves.

 

Marian will die because she is out of time. She doesn't belong in SB. I don't think a character can cheat death. If they were supposed to die, I think they will.

The only question I have is what does she change in the time she is there. Any negative changes should be held against Emma, but I sure the writers will ignore it, as usual.

Losing everything would cause a permanent backslide, but for now, she has Henry. I think he will make a big difference in her decisions. She will not want to lose him.

Do you think she will fight for Robin or let him go back to Marian?

 

I agree with you about Emma. It is typical of how these writers handle her character.

 

So you believe Marian is fated to die? I hadn't thought about that, but it could happen. I just hope Regina isn't around when it happens.

[Dani-Ellie]

The only question I have is what does she change in the time she is there. Any negative changes should be held against Emma, but I sure the writers will ignore it, as usual.

 

 

I agree with you about Emma. It is typical of how these writers handle her character.

 

 

For one, we have no idea if Marian is secretly evil and, as of right now, have no reason to believe she is, but even if she is, by this logic, Emma should have let Regina die in the fire Gold set waaaay back in 1x08. The situations would be very similar: Emma saving a secretly evil woman (if Marian is secretly evil) from certain death. Had Emma let Regina die back then, the people of Storybrooke would have been saved a hell of a lot of trouble. Kathryn wouldn't have disappeared, Mary Margaret wouldn't have been set up for murder, Henry wouldn't have almost died, Snow and Emma wouldn't have ended up in the Enchanted Forest (they only ended up there because Emma pushed Regina out of the wraith's way and got knocked into the hat for her troubles), Cora wouldn't have come to Storybrooke trying to kill everyone, etc. etc.

 

Emma saving Regina in 1x08 was touted as a good thing, as the heroic thing. Is Emma responsible for all of the events Regina set in motion following the fire because she pulled Regina out of that building? My vote is no, because Regina is responsible for her own actions. Was Emma wrong for pulling Regina out of that building in light of what followed? My vote here is also no, because saving a life is not wrong. But it can't be taken both ways. If Emma wasn't wrong for saving Regina, she's also not wrong for saving Marian.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Rockybeach]

Losing everything would cause a permanent backslide, but for now, she has Henry. I think he will make a big difference in her decisions. She will not want to lose him.

Do you think she will fight for Robin or let him go back to Marian?

 

I agree with you about Emma. It is typical of how these writers handle her character.

 

So you believe Marian is fated to die? I hadn't thought about that, but it could happen. I just hope Regina isn't around when it happens.

I agree. As long as she has Henry in her life I think she will continue to try to move forward. I also believe she will let Robin go. She won't fight for him.

 

It's kind of sad what they have turned Emma into. She was such a strong character in season 1. Now she is just..... irrelevant.

 

Yeah I think Marian will die. She has cheated death like 3 times. Sooner or later it will catch up to her. Do you think they will continue down the time travel path? It was so boring the last time I hope they are finished with time travel. (Unless Regina could go back and see Daniel one last time. That would be cool. )

[FavFable]

For one, we have no idea if Marian is secretly evil and, as of right now, have no reason to believe she is, but even if she is, by this logic, Emma should have let Regina die in the fire Gold set waaaay back in 1x08. The situations would be very similar: Emma saving a secretly evil woman (if Marian is secretly evil) from certain death. Had Emma let Regina die back then, the people of Storybrooke would have been saved a hell of a lot of trouble. Kathryn wouldn't have disappeared, Mary Margaret wouldn't have been set up for murder, Henry wouldn't have almost died, Snow and Emma wouldn't have ended up in the Enchanted Forest (they only ended up there because Emma pushed Regina out of the wraith's way and got knocked into the hat for her troubles), Cora wouldn't have come to Storybrooke trying to kill everyone, etc. etc.

 

Emma saving Regina in 1x08 was touted as a good thing, as the heroic thing. Is Emma responsible for all of the events Regina set in motion following the fire because she pulled Regina out of that building? My vote is no, because Regina is responsible for her own actions. Was Emma wrong for pulling Regina out of that building in light of what followed? My vote here is also no, because saving a life is not wrong. But it can't be taken both ways. If Emma wasn't wrong for saving Regina, she's also not wrong for saving Marian.

There is actually a difference between dragging someone out of a building and dragging someone out of their timeline, but if you don't see the difference, that's cool.

Edited August 11, 2014 by FavFable

[Dani-Ellie]

It actually is all the same to me, because the past remained the same. Emma and Hook took pains to ensure the past remained the same; that was the reason they brought Marian forward in the first place. The consequences to Emma saving Marian are to the present timeline, just as the consequences of Emma saving Regina were to the present timeline.

 

Please tell me what the difference is, as you see it. Maybe then I can explain my argument a little more clearly.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[FavFable]

Your right. They took great pains to make sure the past remained the same.......... for them. And isn't that all that matters?

 

Just curious. What do you think happened to the guards that had to tell the evil queen 2 prisoners escaped. You think that timeline was the same for them? No, but hey, it didn't impact Emma and Hook so it's all good.

Edited August 12, 2014 by FavFable

[Dani-Ellie]

They took pains to make sure the past remained the same for everyone (minus Marian, but I think Marian would agree that living out her years in the future was better than, y'know, being executed). Any change to the timeline could have had disastrous results for anyone the timeline affected, up to and including Regina. They were thinking of everyone by bringing Marian forward, not just themselves. If they weren't, they would have just let Marian go back to her family in the past and let the pieces fall where they may.

 

 

 

What do you think happened to the guards that had to tell the evil queen 2 prisoners escaped. You think that timeline was the same for them? No, but hey, it didn't impact Emma and Hook so it's all good.

 

That depends on Regina, and with the back-and-forth writing, I can't be sure. Maybe she just ranted and raved and threatened. Maybe she killed them in anger. But even if she did kill them, that's not on Emma, that's on Regina. Emma cannot be responsible for the actions of others, and people can't live their lives trying not to piss Regina off because that's no way to live. If Regina can't deal with disappointment without killing people, no amount of timeline-fiddling is going to change that.

 

The issue at heart of my argument, however, was the notion that any negative consequences that come from Marian's arrival in the present by Marian's own hand should be laid at Emma's feet, which I wholeheartedly disagree with, for the same reason I disagree with the notion of laying blame for any collateral damage of Marian's escape at Emma's feet. Personal accountability matters to me, and Emma -- or anyone else -- should not be blamed for actions others take. Emma was saving a person's life, and I'm sorry, but nothing will ever convince me she was not behaving like a hero in this instance.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[FavFable]

Wrong. Bringing Marian into a timeline she didn't belong impacted everyone she interacts with going forward. As well as the people that had to suffer the wrath for what they did in the original timeline. Ignoring it doesn't change the fact that they impacted the timeline. The guards, the other prisoner's. This change did not take place in a vacuum. You can ignore the implications but it doesn't mean they didn't happen. 

 

The timeline was not changed for Hook and Emma, and that makes it ok, right.

Edited August 12, 2014 by FavFable

[stealinghome]

Wrong. Bringing Marian into a timeline she didn't belong impacted everyone she interacts with going forward.

Agreed, but why is this automatically a bad thing? Right now it seems to be pretty positive for little Roland, for example.

 

As well as the people that had to suffer the wrath for what they did in the original timeline. Ignoring it doesn't change the fact that they impacted the timeline. The guards, the other prisoner's. This change did not take place in a vacuum. You can ignore the implications but it doesn't mean they didn't happen.

But the whole point of 3x22 is that Hook and Emma, at the end of the day, didn't impact the timeline in a meaningful way. They changed Snowing's first meeting, but nothing else. The same guards who died in 1x03 died in 3x22; the same trolls who died in 1x03 died in 3x22. Once Snow and Charming parted on the road in 3x22, history happened exactly as it did in the original timeline.

[KingOfHearts]

Any changes to the timeline risks lives and the state of the future, no matter how great or small. In Star Trek, there's something called the Temporal Prime Directive. It's a law stating when someone time travels, they are not allowed to change the timeline in any way, even to save a life. Saving one life can affect the lives of the many. Time travel comes with many moral dilemmas like this, which is why putting it in Once was not a good idea.

Edited August 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I think a bigger deal is made of Emma saving Marian's life because time travel was involved. Take away the time-travel element, and it would not be so controversial. 

 

 

The timeline was not changed for Hook and Emma, and that makes it ok, right.

 

Are you saying this from the PoV of the characters, or the viewers? Because Emma and Hook's intentions were far from malicious. Ans as others have said, Emma would have killed Regina and saved herself from being sent away as an infant, and growing up an orphan. Hook could have left a message to his past self, getting him to stop his foolhardy quest for revenge.  If you mean as viewers, people who like Emma and/or Hook will overlook it, then that's hardly a fair statement, is it? 

 

 

Agreed, but why is this automatically a bad thing? Right now it seems to be pretty positive for little Roland, for example.

 

Exactly. At least Emma reunited a mother and her child. 

[Camera One]

Wrong. Bringing Marian into a timeline she didn't belong impacted everyone she interacts with going forward.

 

The future is unwritten.  That would be akin to saying Regina shouldn't have brought Henry to Storybrooke because it would impact everyone he interacted with in the future.  Which is true, but as said above, that could be for better or for worse.  As Rumsy4 said, the only difference in this case is the time travel element. 

 

Just curious. What do you think happened to the guards that had to tell the evil queen 2 prisoners escaped. You think that timeline was the same for them? No, but hey, it didn't impact Emma and Hook so it's all good.

 

I do agree that the way the Season 3 finale was written, a lot of things would have changed beyond what the writers focused on.  And it was hard for me to buy that none of these other little changes affected the overarching timeline in any way and that all these changes were cancelled out and self-corrected like the Trolls getting killed by Regina.

 

They took great pains to make sure the past remained the same.......... for them.

 

But what else could they have done?  They were trapped in a situation where it was impossible to avoid causing drastic changes to the past.  That issue has nothing to do with bringing Marion to the future, since that action did not change the past.  

[Rumsy4]

Any changes to the timeline risks lives and the state of the future, no matter how great or small. In Star Trek, there's something called the Temporal Prime Directive. It's a law stating when someone time travels, they are not allowed to change the timeline in any way, even to save a life. Saving one life can affect the lives of the many. Time travel comes with many moral dilemmas like this, which is why putting it in Once was not a good idea.

 

Putting it in OUAT was not a good idea because they writers aren't good at worldbuilding. But we can hardly take the "rules" of time travel from Star Trek, or LOST, and apply it to OUAT. Time travel is a fictional concept, and we don't yet know how it fully works in ONCE. Besides, any action has consequences. I don't think a bigger deal should necessarily be made of Emma saving Marian's life just because time travel was involved. Why bother saving any lives then? Why bother doing anything in life? Let fate deal with it. Besides, Emma and Hook took Marian out of the timeline--they did not change the past. They saved a life, but didn't leave that life in the past. Only the future would be affected (as any of their present actions not involving time travel would). 

I do agree that the way the Season 3 finale was written, a lot of things would have changed beyond what the writers focused on.  And it was hard for me to buy that none of these other little changes affected the overarching timeline in any way and that all these changes were cancelled out and self-corrected like the Trolls getting killed by Regina.

 

The writes took pains to at least tell us that everything had been set right by the time Emma and Hook came back to the future with Marian. Any gaps they left was nothing egregious, IMO (at least more so than the general writing in the show, haha). 

Edited August 12, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Dani-Ellie]

Bringing Marian into a timeline she didn't belong impacted everyone she interacts with going forward.

Right, but this affects the present and the future, not the past. If, for example, someone from the past popped up in my life tomorrow, nothing about my past would have changed. My present and future will, but that's life. It would be no different from me making any other new acquaintance.

 

 

 

Agreed, but why is this automatically a bad thing? Right now it seems to be pretty positive for little Roland, for example.

Right. As much positivity is coming out of this as negativity. Like, I'm sorry Regina may lose her boyfriend of five days, but a four- or five-year-old little boy has his mom back. That's pretty damn good, in my eyes.

 

 

 

But the whole point of 3x22 is that Hook and Emma, at the end of the day, didn't impact the timeline in a meaningful way.

Also true. Hook and Emma discuss this when she finds him on the patio at Granny's and he tells her his life went on exactly as it always had. They arrived back at the same point in time as when they'd left, nothing was out of place, and Hook himself had very little to no memory of his interaction with Emma in the past. Emma said that Rumple told them the only thing that changed was their little adventure ended up in the book because of how they ended up having to play matchmaker for Snow and Charming. Everything else played out as it always had.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[KingOfHearts]

 

Besides, Emma and Hook took Marian out of the timeline--they did not change the past. Only the future (as any of their present actions not involving time travel would).

 But they could have, that's the thing. Some laws of time travel were explained in Once - when you go back into the past, the future/present become unclear and changeable. There are numerous possibilities of what could have happened because Marian didn't attend her execution, it could have changed things big time. All Emma had to do to erase her own existence was break a twig. It could have been possible that Robin saved her and she died later, for all we know. But since the writers like to cop-out, they just slap on some dialog that says nothing changed, and the world moves on. Time travel introduces consequences the writers don't want to ever deal with, which is another reason it was a bad thing to bring to Once. 

Edited August 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

Somehow I don't think people would be hating on Emma so much if the person she had brought forward was somebody else, somebody who didn't have any effect on Regina's three-day-old relationship. The only reason some people are upset is that it affected Regina. What if the woman she saved was, say, Hansel and Gretel's mother? And we never saw her or any of that family again? A lot less complaining, I'd bet. Timeline fidelity is a convenient tomato to throw at Emma because of Regina being unhappy.

 

Emma and Hook didn't change the future, because it hasn't yet been written. After Emma saved Marian (which, again, was the HUMAN thing to do), they did the absolute best thing they could do to avoid changing the past, which was bring her forward. 

[stealinghome]

Time travel introduces consequences the writers don't want to ever deal with, which is another reason it was a bad thing to bring to Once.

Yeah, but that makes it no different than pretty much any other concept they've introduced on this show. Because goodness knows they don't seem to want to deal with anything (other than Regina's endless tears).

 

Timeline fidelity is a convenient tomato to throw at Emma because of Regina being unhappy.

PREACH.

[Dani-Ellie]

Somehow I don't think people would be hating on Emma so much if the person she had brought forward was somebody else, somebody who didn't have any effect on Regina's three-day-old relationship.

 

Exactly. Let's pretend for a hot minute that Regina wasn't involved with Robin. Wouldn't seeing the Hood family reunited have been a wonderful thing? (Hell, it's still a wonderful thing to me, regardless of Regina's upset.)

 

Even Regina had no problem with Emma bringing someone forward from the past until it affected her. Only then did it become about the stupid time-travelers messing things up and only then was Emma made to look and feel guilty for saving a woman's life (which is some pretty f-ed up morality, even for this show). At the heart of it, this debate is not at all about the morality and responsibility of time travel. It's about the fact that Regina is disappointed and someone needs to be blamed for it because Regina isn't ever allowed to grow up for five seconds and recognize that the world does not in fact revolve around her or recognize that her own actions have consequences just like everyone else's.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[KingOfHearts]

 

Somehow I don't think people would be hating on Emma so much if the person she had brought forward was somebody else, somebody who didn't have any effect on Regina's three-day-old relationship.

 

I wholeheartedly agree. You would be surprised how mad fans are on social media at Emma for doing it - a lot of them want Marian to die. For me, I don't care if it were Marian or Extra #3. The whole time travel concept was not smart or thought-out at all. I've watched other time travel shows that have handled it waaay better. A lot of people feel the same way about several other concepts Once has attempted to tackle, but being the sci-fi guy I am, this one particularly had me pulling my hair out.

Edited August 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

At the heart of it, this debate is not at all about the morality and responsibility of time travel. It's about the fact that Regina is disappointed and someone needs to be blamed for it because Regina isn't ever allowed to grow up for five seconds and recognize that the world does not in fact revolve around her or recognize that her own actions have consequences just like everyone else's.

And it's incredibly hypocritical of Regina to complain about someone accidentally disrupting her very new relationship still in the formative stages while trying to do a good deed when she herself torpedoed Emma's budding relationship deliberately by killing the guy and when she herself deliberately introduced a "wife" into the equation when David and Mary Margaret were hitting it off in spite of having no memory of each other due to the curse when he came out of a coma. When she's spent all that energy and effort in deliberately trying to ruin other people's relationships, she really can't complain when someone else accidentally ruins hers, especially when the thing they do to ruin it is prevent her from executing her guy's wife.

 

I'm sorry, but I just can't support the idea that Regina should ever get to be with the husband of a woman she executed or tried to execute. I don't care how good she becomes, how redeemed she is, she doesn't get that particular cookie. I'm all for her finding love somewhere, but never, ever in a million years with someone who's only available because she imprisoned and executed or tried to execute his wife. Even if Emma hadn't brought Marian to the future, just the knowledge of what Marian's fate actually was totally ruined that relationship and made it something I could never cheer for, and if Robin continues to so much as give the time of day to his wife's would-be executioner, he's dead to me.

[Mari]

Somehow I don't think people would be hating on Emma so much if the person she had brought forward was somebody else, somebody who didn't have any effect on Regina's three-day-old relationship. The only reason some people are upset is that it affected Regina.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I just can't support the idea that Regina should ever get to be with the husband of a woman she executed or tried to execute. I don't care how good she becomes, how redeemed she is, she doesn't get that particular cookie. I'm all for her finding love somewhere, but never, ever in a million years with someone who's only available because she imprisoned and executed or tried to execute his wife. Even if Emma hadn't brought Marian to the future, just the knowledge of what Marian's fate actually was totally ruined that relationship and made it something I could never cheer for, and if Robin continues to so much as give the time of day to his wife's would-be executioner, he's dead to me.

I've made no secret of the fact that I had trouble with Robin/Regina from the farmhouse scene on--simply because of the "bold and audacious" comment.

 

But, I have to agree that Robin dating his wife's murderer is as big an issue.  Robin is dating the person who killed his wife in the original timeline.  Until Emma and Hook removed Marian from the timeline, he was sleeping with his wife's murderer.

 

I keep wondering if someone firmly believes Emma and Hook should not have messed with the timeline--especially if he/she is primarily upset because of the effect on Regina's life--does it impact his/her opinion of Robin/Regina?  Because without their timeline interference, Regina killed Robin's wife and Roland's mother.  Then she started sleeping with Robin and playing with Roland. 

 

There's no way that wouldn't have come out eventually, even if it was just a few years down the road when they were comparing life stories.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Mari

[FavFable]

Any changes to the timeline risks lives and the state of the future, no matter how great or small. In Star Trek, there's something called the Temporal Prime Directive. It's a law stating when someone time travels, they are not allowed to change the timeline in any way, even to save a life. Saving one life can affect the lives of the many. Time travel comes with many moral dilemmas like this, which is why putting it in Once was not a good idea.

Star trek fan and a Once fan   :) Awesome. You make an excellent point. I think it was Spock in Star Trek 3 that said "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one, or few." If the writers were going to alter the timeline they could at least admit it had consequences.

Edited August 12, 2014 by FavFable

[KAOS Agent]

Let's look at the whole Robin/Marian saga as a parallel to Regina's experience. Regina's first love was killed by her mother and Regina went off the deep end killing, torturing and terrorizing an entire realm in her efforts to kill Snow and anyone who helped her, in addition to numerous other atrocities that had nothing to do with the Snow vendetta. In the Robin/Marian story, Regina played the role of Cora (or in Regina's twisted blame game Snow) in the death of Marian. She killed a man's beloved wife, a person he's said he'd walk through fire for and his pain at her death was the same as Regina's at Daniel's death. Regina has never faced up to her responsibility for the pain of the loved ones of all she's murdered/terrorized/orphaned/generally screwed over and here she's got to face that she did it to her pixie dust labeled soul mate. She spouts about actions having consequences to Emma, well guess what, her actions had consequences too. And those consequences had been laid out to her earlier that day by her lover.

 

Emma did her a huge favor. If Regina kills Marian, that's it for Outlaw Queen. Even Robin would have to admit that's not bold and audacious, it's downright evil and it would be massively sick to engage in a relationship that sets Regina up as a stepmother to the child whose mother she cruelly murdered. Honestly, the fact that prior to Emma saving Marian, Robin was sleeping with his wife's murderer and allowing her to play with his son ended any possibility that I could get on board with Outlaw Queen. Even for this show's fucked up morality that's low. Robin is a cardboard cutout at this point anyway, so I'd love it if he could ride off with his family and Regina could find some really hot guy to snark back and forth with who's much more her equal. Sadly, I think I'm stuck with Outlaw Queen angst and it's not only going to make me hate Robin, who's already on thin ice for the whole Roland shadow bait incident, but we'll undoubtedly get a cross between weepy Woegina and crazy psycho Evil Queen. And I'm down with the Evil Queen because she's so much more entertaining than whiny, my-life-and-pain-is-just-so-much-worse-than-everyone-else Woegina, but if Regina flips back to evil at all after the white magic I'm a hero crap from 3B, my TV will not survive the experience of all the things that will be thrown at it. 

Edited August 12, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Mitch]

I hope Regina does fight for Robin (though I think he is too dull for her.) There is nothing wrong in fighting for what you want for in life and well, since this is Regina I don't want her to be Snow White. I want her to still be conflicted and snarky, and annoyed, and somewhat selfish (though trying not to be) just not murderous.  I would love for someone not so annoyingly "pert," take her aside and say, "Look this is the mother of his child who he thought was dead so he made her a saint in his mind. However, what if she isnt a saint, and what if living with someone that isnt a dream person turns out to not be that great. " I think it woudl be funny if Marion can't cook and Regina turns up with her lasagna...or gives Marion the recipe and she puts in too much red pepper, etc. Regina stages a fake accident where Robin has to save her and her top conveniently falls off... Come to think of it Regina doesnt need Sydney, she needs a gay bestie to help her. "Girl, wear that turtle neck from Season 1, it makes you look modest but shows off that rack of yours at the same time. Yes, Marion is once again looking like a mess, she still knows nothing about modern make up..."

Edited August 12, 2014 by Mitch

[myril]

Such small malices sure would fit Regina, but that is bullying and not the way I think anyone should fight for their love. There can be a lot wrong about fighting for what you want in life, if you do constantly let other people pay for it, constantly take away from other people and destroy their lives. That would not be fighting for her love by showing growth, that would be belittling Marian to make Marian look stupid and bad. No improvement on Regina's side, just a change of means.

Edited August 12, 2014 by katusch

[KingOfHearts]

 

And I'm down with the Evil Queen because she's so much more entertaining than whiny, my-life-and-pain-is-just-so-much-worse-than-everyone-else Woegina, but if Regina flips back to evil at all after the white magic I'm a hero crap from 3B, my TV will not survive the experience of all the things that will be thrown at it.

 

There is no way to win with Regina - no way. Redeemed Regina and Evil Queen are both bad news for the show.

 

Redeemed Regina has little else to go with. She TLK'd, used light magic, got a love interest, got Henry, and she's backed by a line of cheerleaders. Even if she finally feels conviction, that doesn't do anything for her, since she already got everything she's ever wanted. Unless she becomes freaking Glinda, there is nowhere else to go with her. She's done. Plus, the downside is Redeemed Regina doesn't generate as much material for marketing and the fandom.

 

The Evil Queen is more entertaining and iconic, but destroying Regina's redemption arc will create a dissatisfaction in most parts of the fandom that will probably never go away. It drags A&E's character writing further and further down, and it magnifies the shallowness in it. If we can't believe anything Regina does will stick, then there's no point in watching her. She has already had this problem her whole arc, so it's nothing new.

 

It's a game of what will keep viewership and marketing above the water. There are so many proponents of Outlaw Queen that it would be foolish to dissolve that couple without something better lined up. I frankly find no pleasure in Regina just being one of the heroes, and it's probably one of the reasons the show is quickly jumping the shark. She's a complex character that shouldn't be as black and white as she's been written to be lately.

 

I don't care if Regina does the moral thing or not - I just want her to be entertaining.

Edited August 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

There is no way to win with Regina - no way. Redeemed Regina and Evil Queen are both bad news for the show.

I think a Gray Hat Regina could be viable for the show, but they'd really need to commit to a) being thoughtful about what lines Gray Regina is and isn't willing to cross in any given situation and why she is (not) willing to cross them (ha), and b) being more up-front about her gray status and what it entails and permanently crossing off the list certain things that she just shouldn't be able to do if she's gray, such as light magic (HA).

 

Basically I think they'd need to have way more objectivity about the character than they currently possess, and really more interest in character at all than they possess, to pull off a true, satisfying Gray Regina.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think a Gray Hat Regina could be viable for the show, but they'd really need to commit to a) being thoughtful about what lines Gray Regina is and isn't willing to cross in any given situation and why she is (not) willing to cross them (ha), and b) being more up-front about her gray status and what it entails and permanently crossing off the list certain things that she just shouldn't be able to do if she's gray, such as light magic (HA).

Gray Regina gives you Woegina, though - she dark's enough to dig her own pits, but she wants to be "good" and she wants to people to see her as good. We had that going in 3A, but 3B totally knocked down that possibillity when she used light magic and TLK'd. (Effectively getting Savior status.) The writers are incapable of writing Gray Regina for long periods of time without messing up it completely. (*cough* Regrets Tree *cough*)

Edited August 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mitch]

That would not be fighting for her love by showing growth, that would be belittling Marian to make Marian look stupid and bad. No improvement on Regina's side, just a change of means.

 

Exactley, which as I said...this is Regina. I thought the "white magic," thing was so much bull crap.  And it would be an improvement, she would not be killing anyone, just back to Season 1 smart sneaky mayor. Look, after 28 years of watching "As the World Turns," and "Guiding Light," the woman would learn a thing or two of soap opera vixen handbook.

 

I do not want the Evil Queen back...that is boring at this point (and looks stupid in Storybrooke). I would like a morally ambivalent gray character, which leads me to:

 

Basically I think they'd need to have way more objectivity about the character than they currently possess, and really more interest in character at all than they possess, to pull off a true, satisfying Gray Regina.

 

Very true and I think the writers think in terms of black and white everyone should be over the top good or bad. Season 1 Regina was more interesting but even then they took things too far...sure Regina was a cold villain but a villain who feels some remorse or ambivilance and STILL does something bad is much more interesting then a cartoon Evil Queen (or a whiny mope!) I think I read somewhere that Parrilla was the one who put the look of sadness in Regina's face when she took out the Underwear Model Sheriff..the writers just had her crushing it. Also she called Katherine her friend, and LP played it like she meant it with a touch of wistfullness, but then she kidnapps Katherine and wants her murdered. I have no problem with that but it would have been much more interesting if they had written it like Regina DID consider her a friend, but if she serves a purpose in her evil plans then she had to go...

 

Anyway, a villain with a touch of humanity is more interesting and Parrilla can play it, but I don't think the writers can write it. Regina is either an Evil Queen, a whiney mope or "the purveyor of the whitest magic EVER!!!!"

[Camera One]

I do understand how the writers might feel they are in a bit of a bind.  KingofHearts describes their dilemma, in that Redeemed Regina can be boring and The Evil Queen makes her two-dimensional.  But I do agree with stealinghome that Gray Hat Regina is possible, and the easiest way to do this is to *gradually* rehabilitate her so it's not surge-ahead, backslide, surge-ahead, backslide, but instead step by step by step by step (all that stuff they rewarded Regina with in 3B could have been parcelled out in 4A, 4B and 5A, giving her little victories while she still loses her temper at the superbaddy of the half-season).  KingofHearts does bring up the real problem that Gray Regina could also be hard to sustain for longer periods of time.  But I think Regina can still keep her edge when she is against a bigger evil.  That's what made it work in 3A with Peter Pan.  I think it could have worked with Zelena too, if they didn't give her everything she could ever want by the penultimate episode, and if the entire Zelena conflict hadn't been about Regina.

 

My main thing with Regina is her amount of significant screentime ("significant" screentime since the number of minutes each character is on screen is not truly representative of who gets the "meaty" material) and the writing of entire arcs to develop only her character (both were the case in 3B).  I do like Regina and actually even feel sorry for her sometimes but the disproportionate screentime and character focus turns me off.  

Edited August 12, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Anyway, a villain with a touch of humanity is more interesting and Parrilla can play it, but I don't think the writers can write it. Regina is either an Evil Queen, a whiney mope or "the purveyor of the whitest magic EVER!!!!"

 

 

That is why Regina is a lost cause - not because of herself, but because of the writers inability to give her fair, balanced, quality writing. Everything they give her screams fanfic, whether its evil, good, or inbetween.

 

 

My main thing with Regina is her amount of significant screentime ("significant" screentime since the number of minutes each character is on screen is not truly representative of who gets the "meaty" material) and the writing of entire arcs to develop only her character (both were the case in 3B).  I do like Regina and actually even feel sorry for her sometimes but the disproportionate screentime and character focus turns me off.

 

Character balancing is the real issue here. Regina gets the most writing on the show, so when you put more crappy writing into one character, a crappier character comes out. Some characters like Charming who don't get as much writing are more stable. When Regina gets more screen time, she's more susceptible to character assassination and problems in her arc.

Edited August 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

That is why Regina is a lost cause - not because of herself, but because of the writers inability to give her fair, balanced, quality writing. Everything they give her screams fanfic, whether its evil, good, or inbetween.

This may be an insult to all the great fanfiction out there! ;)

 

Character balancing is the real issue here. Regina gets the most writing on the show, so when you put more crappy writing into one character, a crappier character comes out. Some characters like Charming who don't get as much writing are more stable. When Regina gets more screen time, she's more susceptible to character assassination and problems in her arc.

Agreed. Honestly, I think the smartest thing they did with Regina in all of S3 was, Save Henry excepted, backburner her in 3A. The character needed the recovery from 2B, and it helped get the writers back on track with her somewhat. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have cottoned onto the fact that less is more with both her and Rumpel.

[Camera One]

Honestly, I think the smartest thing they did with Regina in all of S3 was, Save Henry excepted, backburner her in 3A. The character needed the recovery from 2B, and it helped get the writers back on track with her somewhat. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have cottoned onto the fact that less is more with both her and Rumpel.

 

It gave us such a fake-out.  Oh wow, they learned their lesson!  Then cue 3B.

[FavFable]

There is no way to win with Regina - no way. Redeemed Regina and Evil Queen are both bad news for the show.

 

Redeemed Regina has little else to go with. She TLK'd, used light magic, got a love interest, got Henry, and she's backed by a line of cheerleaders. Even if she finally feels conviction, that doesn't do anything for her, since she already got everything she's ever wanted. Unless she becomes freaking Glinda, there is nowhere else to go with her. She's done. Plus, the downside is Redeemed Regina doesn't generate as much material for marketing and the fandom.

 

The Evil Queen is more entertaining and iconic, but destroying Regina's redemption arc will create a dissatisfaction in most parts of the fandom that will probably never go away. It drags A&E's character writing further and further down, and it magnifies the shallowness in it. If we can't believe anything Regina does will stick, then there's no point in watching her. She has already had this problem her whole arc, so it's nothing new.

 

It's a game of what will keep viewership and marketing above the water. There are so many proponents of Outlaw Queen that it would be foolish to dissolve that couple without something better lined up. I frankly find no pleasure in Regina just being one of the heroes, and it's probably one of the reasons the show is quickly jumping the shark. She's a complex character that shouldn't be as black and white as she's been written to be lately.

 

I don't care if Regina does the moral thing or not - I just want her to be entertaining.

 

I agree with you about Regina being boring if she is all good or all bad because she becomes a diminished character. I don't see her quite as black and white as you do, I guess. She has done some good things, but that doesn't absolve her of her past and the guilt she carries with her.

 

Do you find the grey area she is in entertaining?

[Rockybeach]

Hey Favfable

Did you see the deleted scene between Regina and her father? If so, what did you think?

Edited August 12, 2014 by Rockybeach

[KingOfHearts]

 

Do you find the grey area she is in entertaining?

If we had better writers, I would. If she snark in the background and be the magical help like she was in 3A and some of early 3B, then she's in a good place I just don't think she can be in a grey area without flipping back and forth constantly. Like others have said, she can be great as a gray character. But that's becoming less and less possible with her getting TLK and light magic.

 

Regina is a very passionate character. When you give her an inch, she goes a mile. She is, in every way, larger than life. Those aspects of her character make it even more difficult for her to be grey.

Edited August 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[MDKNIGHT]

she's backed by a line of cheerleaders.

 

I know what you meant but this made me flash to a remake of the "Mickey" video with Regina in the Toni Basil roll.  Snow of course would be one of the cheerleaders.

 

I think part of the problem is that Regina wallows in self pity but doesn't seem to feel actual GUILT about what she's done.  OTOH it CAN be funny when she says horrendous things without realizing they are horrendous like when Snow said "It's happening again...I'm pregnant and an evil sorceress wants to harm my baby." and Regina's response is "Well to be fair I was trying to get at you...everybody else was just collateral damage." 

 

I think it would be the better of the probably options if Regina's first instinct is to try to get Robin back through evil magic but she (and she alone not due to Henry) CHOOSES not to go through with it.  If she did even that much it would show growth without making her dull.  She could still be sharp tongued and grey but not evil if she has the chance to get away with evil and turns it down without doing it for Henry or to look good.

 

Because I don't think I've ever spelled it out....does anybody else think Fairy Tale Land Evil Queen Regina dresses like she kidnapped  Bob Mackie (who designed for the Carol Burnett Show and for Cher)?  When they go into flashbacks I keep expecting her to go into a either a Vamp Sketch or a musical number. At the very least I can't fathom that the Evil Queen didn't have at least one gay stylist.  Nobody just looks like that without help.

Edited August 13, 2014 by MDKNIGHT

[FavFable]

 

Because I don't think I've ever spelled it out....does anybody else think Fairy Tale Land Evil Queen Regina dresses like she kidnapped  Bob Mackie (who designed for the Carol Burnett Show and for Cher)?  When they go into flashbacks I keep expecting her to go into a either a Vamp Sketch or a musical number. At the very least I can't fathom that the Evil Queen didn't have at least one gay stylist.  Nobody just looks like that without help.

As both a Carol Burnett fan and an Evil Queen fan I think I should be offended, but you are right. Every outfit looks like it was pulled from Bob's designs or Carol's closet. If they ever decide to do a musical episode I think she should be the star because she is the only one dressed for it.  :)

Hey Favfable

Did you see the deleted scene between Regina and her father? If so, what did you think?

I did see it and I LOVED IT. I think it gave so much depth to what was going on with Regina right after Daniel's death. I hate that they cut it out.

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

Regina has offered ZERO apologies for any of the above ( actually said "I don't regret any of it!" ) and yet..."She's a HERO!"

...The more you know...

 

Meh, she's a villain. Villains do bad things. They're not supposed to be remorseful, otherwise they're not villains. I don't care if she destroys the whole world, really. I wish the writers understood it's her villain side that makes her entertaining, not some contrived redemption arc. The actress totally revels in the Evil Queen role, they plaster it all over the marketing, and there are many, many Evil Regals out there. Why, in good sense, would you want to take that kind of character away?

 

Her atrocities don't bother me - it's a TV show. It's fiction. I usually prefer villains over heroes, anyway. What bothers me is what the writers do to screw up her character for their own little whims. They didn't need to redeem Regina. There was no reason given to through all of Season 1. Season 2 comes around, and Regina's redeemable all of a sudden. What was the logic in that, really? What were they trying to do?

 

I love Evil Queen scene chewing. The chemistry was perfect in S1. I don't see why she has to be a hero.

Edited August 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

They're not supposed to be remorseful, otherwise they're not villains. I don't care if she destroys the whole world, really. I wish the writers understood it's her villain side that makes her entertaining, not some contrived redemption arc.

 

Right. I don't have a problem with Regina, per se. I have a problem with the bipolar nature of the story, where one day she's trying to be a better person for the sake of her son and the next she's plotting to kill his whole family and the day after that she's working with said family and the day after that says she doesn't regret anything she's done, which includes trying to kill her son's entire family or gaslighting her son in the first place.

 

I have a problem with the narrative trying to tell me she's a hero now when she hasn't earned it. I have a problem with how the story is twisted to make Regina some poor misunderstood soul who's justified in her villainy. I have a problem when her victims are written as apologizing to her when she's made no attempt at apology to them. Basically, I have a problem that the abuser is made to look like the abused. That's not redemption; it's rewarding villainy.

 

And if this weren't a fairy tale where good is supposed to triumph over evil, I might have less of a problem with it. As it stands, though, it goes up my ass sideways. Because dammit, if you want me to give two shits about the Evil Queen's redemption, make it an actual redemption. Make her work for it, make her recognize her mistakes, and make her regret what she's done in the name of a short-sighted vengeance. Don't just hand everything to her on a silver platter and call it a day.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[KingOfHearts]

 

Basically, I have a problem that the abuser is made to look like the abused. That's not redemption; it's rewarding villainy.

 

Slapping a "misunderstood" or "victim" sticker on it is what makes me scratch my head. If Regina believes she's the right one in all this, fine. But when other characters who are are sworn to hold up "goodness" like Snow don't have a problem with Regina, it just flat-out messes their characters up completely.

Edited August 13, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

I have a problem with the narrative trying to tell me she's a hero now when she hasn't earned it.

 

Exactly, @Dani-Ellie . That was my point. I loved to hate S1 Regina -- back then she was a great villain. It was fun. But this whole "she's a villain but not because she's just misunderstood and only a poor, poor victim. It's not her fault. Feel sorry for Woegina, Audience. Feel sorry for her NOW." Ya, eff that. That's what makes me hate Regina.

[retrograde]

They didn't need to redeem Regina. There was no reason given to through all of Season 1. Season 2 comes around, and Regina's redeemable all of a sudden. What was the logic in that, really? What were they trying to do?

I love Evil Queen scene chewing. The chemistry was perfect in S1. I don't see why she has to be a hero.

I far prefer Regina as a villain but I think one reason they felt that needed to redeem her in some way was so there was a reason to keep her around. I mean, if she was just pure evil, the other characters would lock her up and deny her access to Henry. Perhaps they should have thought it through better at the start of the show, but I KIND of get why they had to do something to justify her continued existence and interaction with the other characters.