S02.E04: Never Knew Love Like This Before

[RealReality]

38 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I thought humorous snarking (or whatever it's called in the ball world) was part of Pray's job as MC, and Candy got her share of it, but he also did it to other contestants if he felt it was warranted.  The difference is that the other contestants seemed to take it well and sauntered off, but Candy always took it too personally and made an issue of it.

I agree, it is totally part of his job.

But it always seemed like Candy's reads were just a little extra.  Like he would give a passing shady comment about a contestants looks or vibe and it was funny.  The comments towards candy always seemed a little more in depth.  Not vicious per se.  But just....more......stop the music more.

I think that had any other queen worn those wings they would have for sure gotten a comment......but not the same one candy got.

And that is in before candy would invariably fight back and extend it.  

I thought PT gave candy harsher reads, and it was funny because she was so fiesty and she fought back so hard.  

It had an element of kicking someone who was down.  BUT, I didn't know that there were categories she regularly won.  

[Ohwell]

37 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I agree, it is totally part of his job.

But it always seemed like Candy's reads were just a little extra.  Like he would give a passing shady comment about a contestants looks or vibe and it was funny.  The comments towards candy always seemed a little more in depth.  Not vicious per se.  But just....more......stop the music more.

I think that had any other queen worn those wings they would have for sure gotten a comment......but not the same one candy got.

And that is in before candy would invariably fight back and extend it.  

I thought PT gave candy harsher reads, and it was funny because she was so fiesty and she fought back so hard.  

It had an element of kicking someone who was down.  BUT, I didn't know that there were categories she regularly won.  

I think he gave Candy harsher reads because she just wouldn't stop fucking up.  LOL

Seriously though, The more I think about it, I think she was more stubborn than clueless and was determined to do things her way, categories be damned, and PT was sick of it and it showed.

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, Ohwell said:

I think he gave Candy harsher reads because she just wouldn't stop fucking up.  LOL

Seriously though, The more I think about it, I think she was more stubborn than clueless and was determined to do things her way, categories be damned, and PT was sick of it and it showed.

Entirely possible.  But in the quest to snag trophies and come into their own PT likely sees a lot of fuck ups.  And probably repeat offenders.  I can see how candy would be an unapologetic repeat offender, but really PTs thing is to read.  

PT can't really read unless he has a steady stream of fuck ups.  So he should always deal with people who probably aren't doing the best, because either they are still learning, they aren't very good or they don't have the resources or the skill level or the look.

This is only to say that if PT was truly bothered by ball fuck ups I don't think he would have chosen to MC the balls.  But with all other fuck ups, he reads them one way and with candy it seemed deeper and a little more...intense.

And candy was so beautiful that I felt like she put in a lot of work so she could not be the most egregious offender.* 

And mileage varies, which is totally reasonable, I have my opinion on it but I can see the other POV.  But for me I enjoyed the PT/candy ghost conversation because it had been confusing to me.

* -- Angelica Ross played a straight dancer/hooker (?) in a TNT show called Claws and it just goes to show that she really can pass, so it was kinda odd that she thought she couldn't.  

Edited July 12, 2019 by RealReality

[Dee]

The only time Pray read Candy was when Candy walked in a category she wasn't suited for.

Pray interrupting a ball to read Elektra for not protesting with ACTUP was uncalled for. Pray reading Candy for being hardheaded and not playing to her strengths is on Candy.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Dee

[RealReality]

3 hours ago, Dee said:

The only time Pray read Candy was when Candy walked in a category she wasn't suited for.

Pray interrupting a ball to read Elektra for not protesting with ACTUP was uncalled for. Pray reading Candy for being hardheaded and not playing to her strengths is on Candy.

But he NEVER, as far as I can remember read anyone as hard as candy.  Except elektra.  That one time.  

And I can't imagine that candy is the only person walking in a category she doesn't belong in. 

PT doesn't have much of a job if everyone walking a category is well suited for it and is performing well.  

Have we ever seen a PT/candy scene where he wasn't harshly reading her? I don't remember a single one.  There was the diner scene I guess....but that didn't go well either.  However, I don't count that because PT is stubborn, so once he for it in his mind that lip synching wasn't going to be a thing that was that.  But, she had some good points about why it would be a good idea for the balls.

And 30 years later we all know it takes off.

I can see the alternative POV, but to me, he was extra harsh with candy, when other ball participants probably fit the same criteria as candy.

[Ohwell]

I feel PT.  Some people just get on your damn nerves.  LOL

[Dee]

1 hour ago, RealReality said:

But he NEVER, as far as I can remember read anyone as hard as candy.

He never read Candy any harder than anyone else.

Hell, a judge was willing to fight Candy because she was determined to waste everyone's time.

Her unearned hubris is not their problem.

[DrivingSideways]

I don't have a strong feeling either way as to whether PT was too harsh on Candy, but I am loving the dialogue back and forth!  Goes to show how invested people are in the characters.

Candy always got on my nerves a bit so I was surprised at how saddened I was that she is gone.  

I can't get over how perfectly cast this show is.  There is something slightly amateur about some of the actors that works in a weird way.  It reminds me of when they gave Roseanne Barr a show, but then surrounded her with John Goodman and Laurie Metcalf, which elevated her acting.  I feel like sprinkling some pros in this cast is really lifting the entire cast's performances, because the core authenticity of the actresses is so strong.

I'm also glad that the Kate Mara/Evan Peters plots are gone and we can focus fully on the ladies.

[RealReality]

45 minutes ago, Dee said:

He never read Candy any harder than anyone else.

Hell, a judge was willing to fight Candy because she was determined to waste everyone's time.

Her unearned hubris is not their problem.

Yeah, agree to disagree because I think he always read candy harder than anyone else in the room and I don't even think it was ever even close with the exception of Elektra....that one time.

If not being the right fit for a category = wasting everyone's time then there were likely multiple offenders.  The reason that anyone in the scene could be read is because they weren't the right fit, they didn't have the right qualities for the category, they didn't have the right attitude or the right look. 

If people were doing everything right, or were even doing everything decent there wouldn't really be reason to read anyone.  The fact that multiple people were read means that multiple people were in the same position.  But none, IMO, were subjected to the harsh reads candy was.

Which was absolutely fine, she could handle it so she and PT were well matched.  

But it means that, for me, there wasn't any manufactured drama and it was interesting to see how it was addressed.  So, I liked the candy ghost/PT conversation.

[Dee]

9 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I think he always read candy harder than anyone else in the room

What did he say to Candy that was worse than what he said to anyone else?

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, Dee said:

What did he say to Candy that was worse than what he said to anyone else?

I pointed out the examples I remember and I'm certainly not doing a forensic search or rewatching the show for examples to placate someone with a different opinion on an internet forum.    

Edited July 13, 2019 by RealReality

[Ohwell]

I got the feeling that Candy knew she was wrong in some of the categories and just dared Pray to read her so she could play the victim. 

R.I.P., Candy

[RealReality]

21 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I feel PT.  Some people just get on your damn nerves.  LOL

This is truth.  And I think it is what made the candy ghost/PT conversation interesting because it was an exploration as to why.

[Blakeston]

Pray Tell was nice to Candy once - when she won that curvy body category after getting the black market silicon injections. His feedback to her was quite positive.

That said, I thought a lot of his comments the rest of the time were over-the-top nasty. Participating in the trade category was just buffoonish, sure - but when she participated in the body categories, there was no need to be so vicious about her figure not being good enough.

Based on their confrontation in this episode, it appears the writers wanted us to think he was crossing the line repeatedly.

[kieyra]

31 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Pray Tell was nice to Candy once - when she won that curvy body category after getting the black market silicon injections. His feedback to her was quite positive.

That said, I thought a lot of his comments the rest of the time were over-the-top nasty. Participating in the trade category was just buffoonish, sure - but when she participated in the body categories, there was no need to be so vicious about her figure not being good enough.

Based on their confrontation in this episode, it appears the writers wanted us to think he was crossing the line repeatedly.

I honestly thought it was building to some eventual arc where Candy would snap, and it would be worse than a butter knife in the mix. 

[bosawks]

Candy putting her cigarette out on her own coffin was the most Candy thing ever.

[hoodooznoodooz]

I finally watched this. That lip synching scene was so wonderful. That song will always be special for me now. 

[hoodooznoodooz]

My only criticism: Pray should have let Candy’s parents stand in front of the casket for four hours if they needed to.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Clips:

Pray reads Candy

Candy's lip sync

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Violence in the community:

Edited July 14, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[bosawks]

At first I was a little annoyed that Blanca didn’t get a final verbal go round with Candy like everyone else.

But her humming a gospel tune in the pew with Candy is what has been staying with me.

I love Blanca.

[aradia22]

I have to say, I don't think Janet Mock is a great TV writer. And I'm not sure pairing her with Ryan Murphy is the right way to go. The Our Lady J episode last week was much more balanced and consistently strong. That said...

SHIT. I cried buckets. I mean like, tearing up, that slow, silent cry, and full on tight chest, snot, ugly crying. 

Even when it first happened, I didn't feel anything. I was actually kind of annoyed at the show for killing Candy instead of Lulu or one of the lesser actors. But then we got to the funeral and I was like... it had to be Candy. As much as I was upset with them for not fully realizing that character's/actress's potential, that was kind of the point. And it was certainly a fitting send off. For all Candy was shortchanged in season 1, this was a display of all that actress is capable of. Seriously, I could not stop crying. I can't say for sure but that hokey device of having Candy's spirit visit with everyone and then the triumphant performance at the end has Ryan Murphy's name all over it. And God damn it if it didn't work for me. 

When Candy was talking to Pray, I thought that was a little too easy. To say that Pray saw himself in her and was trying to protect her but was also a little threatened by her and jealous didn't ring true. He walks down the street with a cane like a classy version of a pimp. It's not like he's not living his life proudly. It felt like in Glee where the bully was secretly gay and had a crush on Kurt. Not every homophobic person is actually gay. The idea that you can only hate people who reflect back things you don't like about yourself is simplistic self-help nonsense. For example, it makes more sense for him to be threatened by someone trying to break the rules and dismantle a system he feels he is the caretaker of, a tradition/organization that is such a refuge and support for so many people. If there are no rules, there's no structure and you break the illusion. It doesn't mean anything to win. You might realize how trivial it all is. Like, you have to believe in it or you realize gymnastics is a useless skill that people are torturing themselves to be the best at.

Candy had great moments with everyone but Lulu and her parents really got me. Fuck, I can't even talk about it, it got me so good.

And that final performance was just perfection. I feel like the earlier scenes at the ball were fine. I think the balls have been a little lacking because they're too glossy. I feel all the production values. It doesn't feel real. But the final scene was perfect because it gave Candy the moment she deserved. But obviously it lived in the world of symbolism and dream sequence. So it made sense for it to be this glorious production with all the lights and sparkle. I feel like there needs to be a distinction between the regular balls and the moments that need to stand out for story purposes like when there's a battle or Blanca wins Mother of the Year or something. Does that make sense? Like, they film everything the same way and it shouldn't always look as good as it does.

Anyway, I saved it on the DVR so I can rewatch parts of it when I'm not crying through it. God damn it. When this show is good, it's fantastic. 

Shady but I Elektra barely spoke this episode and I don't remember Damon having any lines. I don't think it was an accident that they benched the weaker actors. 

Also, if the actor playing Ricky hasn't gotten a different job, I don't understand why he's with Elektra's house. Still makes no sense. If you date someone in college and you break up, you don't transfer schools. He had relationships in the house with people other than Damon.

Edited July 15, 2019 by aradia22

[aradia22]

I do feel like the last two episodes have been slightly irresponsible about AZT. They're looking at HIV treatment from a contemporary perspective. In 1990, it had just been approved for a few years and I doubt dosage and all of that had been perfected. But it's not really the show so much as the nurse. I don't know what kind of medical professional would be pushing a drug like a miracle cure like that with no hesitation. Blanca and then Pray Tell had valid concerns. It's been a long time since my college Immunology class and I'd have to look it up again but the mechanism by which AZT works is not refined. It's not like taking a vaccine with antibodies specific to a virus. It targets the basic mechanisms of cell function. That's no joke for people who already have compromised immune systems. I'm not saying they shouldn't take the drugs. But it should be more like the way chemotherapy and radiation are treated in media when talking about fighting cancer. You're making the choice to try to have more time but it's not a guarantee and you could in fact have less time because of the strain you're putting on your body.

[aradia22]

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Even though Candy's murder was stark and violent and brutal, the aftermath of the community coming together to mourn her death was so positive. 

I know people from the show have spoken about this but I really appreciated that even though they showed the body, they didn't fetishize the death or bother with her killer or showing the violence. None of that is important. Candy is what's important. But it's a big shift watching shows like Pose and Harlots that are created by the communities they're representing. 

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And since when were she and Angel so close? And talk about the irony of helping your friend cover up a murder one week and becoming the body the next.

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I'm not sure it was a great idea to do two Very Special Episodes about death in a row, either.

Weren't they both part of the House of Abundance early in season 1? I can connect the dots for myself and pretend that they were closer before Angel joined with Blanca. I do agree that this was a weird episode to follow the body disposal last episode but it stopped bothering me once we got to the funeral and I couldn't stop crying. 

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And I didn't think the scene with Candy's parents was earned. Awww, how sweet, they're being given validation for the love they gave their daughter! Even though they only decided to come to her funeral at the last minute, and her mother calls makes a big point of referring to her as "he."

I didn't think it was about her mom being validated for her love if we're talking about not shooing her away from makeup and whatnot. I feel like it was more about her mom still misgendering her and being uncomfortable and then finally being confronted with Candy's body and the reality of her. And realizing that she had lost so much by not seeing her as who she really was when she was alive. I agree it was a leap for her to suddenly see Candy as her baby (unless we really think Candy's ghost was visiting and having full conversations) but it's a TV show so I'm willing to go with having this revelation now instead of finding a way to check in on this character and bringing the actress back in 3 or more episodes when it would make more sense for her to make peace with this. I think the moment with the dad came across as sweet. Kurt's dad on Glee. The dad of the blond guy in ACS: Versace. Ryan Murphy loves these sweet, supportive dads. (Let's ignore the mess of Nip/Tuck.) I think he supported his son as much as he could. The show was unclear on when/how Candy came out but apparently there was some estrangement. I didn't doubt that he loved her though. With him it seemed less like he'd rejected Candy and more like he was meeting someone he loved but hadn't seen in a long time. Side note: I refuse to believe Angelica is 38. She looks INCREDIBLE. I think perhaps the character is supposed to be younger than the actress. I always got the sense that Candy was young and immature. That would mean she hadn't been estranged from her parents for as long. 

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Also, the crowds for the balls are incredible!

Did outsiders really start attending the balls when Vogue was released? That seems doubtful. Pray complains about tourism but I feel like straight people would still have felt uncomfortable in even gay clubs until at least the late 90's. And this would be an even more specific queer space that included transwomen and POC. Obviously people have been seeing drag shows for years but I don't think it went that mainstream until Drag Race. Were droves of outsiders really going to a ball the way they might go to a show featuring Drag Race performers today? Wouldn't they be more likely to just go see Madonna on tour?

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Probably will never happen in Ryan Murphy's world.

Do heroic fat men even exist? Or, if not heroic, at least non-villainous main characters? I can't think of any off the top of my head. And he's been trending even more towards gym bodies so even the skinny guys are disappearing.

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Can we just give Billy Porter all the Emmys now and be done with it? 

There are too many TV shows for me to know what's going on and the Emmy's are kind of nonsense anyway, but I would love it if Billy and Angelica are recognized. 

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But at the same time, it feels like a real thing that would happen, a real person who would stubbornly just keep trying and trying and never backing down, even when it just aggravated everyone. 

I appreciated hearing more from her in this episode. Because to a certain degree everyone "poses" and if you're good at something it seems like everyone (at least in the main cast) gets rewarded. But having Candy explain that she wanted to perform as much as be a pretty face went a way towards explaining how she's been acting. I think the body category was more about her insecurities but I can see how an attention-seeking personality like Candy would want the approval that goes to the flashy dancers and those who can vogue. That does not explain why she didn't participate in those dumb skits (Romeo and Juliet, Cinderella, etc.)

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Pray's role at the ball was similar to that of a school teacher. He had to manage the chaos, herd cats, tell people when they were not following the rules, etc. And in that sense, I can see why he got frustrated with Candy because her repeated attempts to compete in the wrong categories was like a kid constantly disrupting the class. When you deal with the same kid pulling the same shit over and over, you start to lose your patience when they do it again.

At least in the context of the show, I do think Candy had something of a point. Not about competing in the wrong categories, but about interruptions. Even though Pray shut down Elektra when she announced her new house, she still finished talking and she had enough clout that no one was laughing at her. And how many times in season 1 did someone from Evangelista run on stage to whisper something to Pray and then suddenly they were doing that or having a battle. I do think Pray plays favorites with Evangelista and even though I understand it from a TV show perspective, it's worse in season 2 with him just talking about Angel's modeling or Blanca's nail salon at the ball. Is he also talking about everyone else's jobs and personal successes?

[MelloYellow]

Never cared for Candy.

Glad she's dead.

[Ohwell]

I didn't care about Candy one way or the other and didn't think she added much to the show, but I'm sorry she was murdered.

[RealReality]

@aradia22 -- great post.  I only wanted to add that in some context the ball scene being infiltrated by tourists and squares like me may have been a thing.

I watched an episode of American Justice about Michael Alig.  I specifically remember bill Kurtis saying that people were going to the limelight club in droves just to see the "club kids" who were generally gay men dressed in spectacular get ups and costumes. 

I think maybe people in NYC or who visit NYC are always looking for the hip, new thing.  All it took for alig and the club kids was a cover story in New York magazine.  The ballroom/vogue scene has a song/video from a certified music icon.

Not sure if it actually happened but I think it could have.

[pasdetrois]

Just watched. The best moment for me was Blanca and Candy quietly humming "Jesus Loves Me" in the church pew. Beautiful harmonies.

Blanca looked beautiful as she leaned in the door frame and listened to the others talk (before the drama hit).

Damon is not that great of a lyrical or jazz dancer. The lower half of his body, especially his feet, doesn't have precision control. Lots of dancers get the upper body right, but don't master the placement of the feet.

I had a hard time watching Pray Tell tear down Candy.

Her bustier all askew after she vogued to Madonna was the perfect realistic touch.

The chemistry between Indya Moore and Angel Curiel in the flirty ball scene was sizzling. Damn.

Farewell Candy. We'll miss you.

Edited July 20, 2019 by pasdetrois

[Nanrad]

Honestly, I don’t think PT’s reads were unnecessarily harsh, I think he was just sick of Candy walking in inappropriate categories, and then getting offended when called out. We’ve seen candy be an habitual offender of the category. And when candy has the requirements for said category, PT compliments her.

Candy wasn’t some newbie to the scene, she’d been participating at balls for years, and then became a mother. She should’ve known better and appropriately prepared for the right categories.

imo, PT’s reads was about her habitually crossing the line and lacking any accountability as to why she was being called out and, at times, reacting violently.

[Meedis]

So glad Netflix finally has Season 2 available for streaming.   I just finished episode 4.   I was spoiled that Candy wouldn't be on the show for too long but wow...I really did enjoy her send-off.    It was great again to see adversaries in the show join forces when bad things happen to one of their own (Candy being instrumental in helping Elektra in the previous episode with her dead-John.   

It was sad that Candy's last scene before her brutal murder was being angry at Pray Tell and just wanting to be heard.    I totally felt her pain in those moments.   It's sad that it took her passing for Pray Tell to implement her idea.    I loved that Candy got the first lip-sync with Stephanie Mills's powerful song.

Sigh...if only in real life we could have 'final' conversations with our loved ones after they passed.   A very well-done episode.

[ZaldamoWilder]

The category is........late everymuffukin where she goes.

The squad has been talking about how much they loved this show for-ever.  Meanwh'ile I was all:  whaddoIknow about ball culture? meh. 

On 7/9/2019 at 11:57 PM, Irlandesa said:

As much as reviews had hyped this episode, I expected to like it more.  For whatever reason, I wasn't really feeling it until Candy's scene with her father. 

Angelica Ross was very good, though.  As was the actress who plays her co-mother.  I loved when she tried to grab things from Candy's funeral outfit.

The weird (and I guess judgey stereotypical of me) part was that I just knew he was the one who was the hardass.   When Candy looked at him, tears brimming and said I knew it was you who got me the dollhouse....I pretended to be asleep but I saw you.  BayBeeee?  Youd've thought it was the 3rd of September, a day I'll always remember, cause that was the day my daddy died + Shug tackle-hugging her diddy in church, combined.   Now I do cry at a lil punkassery on tv.  A Budweiser clydesdale that remembers and goes galloping back to the trainer he had as a pony.  A dad seeing his daughter as her 4 year old self behind the wheel of their subaru that's somehow in great enough shape for her 18 year old self to be driving to college.  You know, light shit.  But this scene here.   #IRockySobbed

 

On 7/12/2019 at 6:49 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

As MC, Pray Tell's job was to keep the ball running smoothly, enforce the rules/requirements (meaning not allowing people to participate in categories that they are clearly not qualified for), and provide commentary. He read Candy frequently because she did things like show up dressed as Madonna for the trade category. In cases like this, he was doing his job as MC - making it clear that she did not meet the requirements for the category and providing commentary for everyone else.

Pray's role at the ball was similar to that of a school teacher. He had to manage the chaos, herd cats, tell people when they were not following the rules, etc. And in that sense, I can see why he got frustrated with Candy because her repeated attempts to compete in the wrong categories was like a kid constantly disrupting the class. When you deal with the same kid pulling the same shit over and over, you start to lose your patience when they do it again.

At least when you're a teacher, you know you only have to put up with this kid's behavior until the end of the school year and then they will move on to annoy another teacher. But there's no end of the school year for the balls so Pray had been dealing with Candy's shenanigans for ages. It's not surprise that when Candy showed up to vogue in a Madonna outfit in the trade category that Pray's attitude was "Ugh, this bitch again?"

and I'll be damned if that wasn't what I was thinking.  Every time.  You know the rules and you still feel it necessary to try me?  Fine, Beloved, step up and turn around for your ass whooping, I got time today.

On 7/12/2019 at 10:11 AM, Ohwell said:

I thought humorous snarking (or whatever it's called in the ball world) was part of Pray's job as MC, and Candy got her share of it, but he also did it to other contestants if he felt it was warranted.  The difference is that the other contestants seemed to take it well and sauntered off, but Candy always took it too personally and made an issue of it.

Right.  You know who Candy is?  That muffucah who shows up to check in a 60 pound bag and don't wanna pay the overage fee.  If you don't move the entire fuck around.  Compliant passengers are waiting to board lol! 

On 7/12/2019 at 11:32 AM, Ohwell said:

I think he gave Candy harsher reads because she just wouldn't stop fucking up.  LOL

Seriously though, The more I think about it, I think she was more stubborn than clueless and was determined to do things her way, categories be damned, and PT was sick of it and it showed.

It was more than that though.  If you don't know, then the first time is a mistake.  Each time thereafter, you in it for the disruptive attention getting of it all.  Exhausting either way.  Because here's the thing....

On 7/12/2019 at 9:28 AM, RealReality said:

I thought that was the MC with the silky press.

I don't think we ever saw candy pick up a trophy so I was surprised to learn there were categories she regularly won in.  

I remember PT picking candy apart for trying to enter the body category with a flat butt and then reading her when she tried to get a bigger one.  

I remember thinking that the read on the angel wings was a bit much.  Yeah, they wer low rent compared to Elektra, but they weren't that awful.

Elektra wasn't following the rules either (the category was feathers), but if you're going to attempt to force me to put up with your bullshit, baby let. me. have. it.!

    

 

On 7/12/2019 at 10:09 PM, RealReality said:

I pointed out the examples I remember and I'm certainly not doing a forensic search or rewatching the show for examples to placate someone with a different opinion on an internet forum.    

On 7/17/2019 at 2:05 PM, MelloYellow said:

Never cared for Candy.

Glad she's dead.

Damn Necrodamus, I missed all the bacon, grissle and grease bwahaaaaaaaa