S05.E07: Chapter Eighty-Eight

[willgracefan]

How many more episodes of this show do we have the live through now?

Spoiler

I know there is a wedding at the end, I was sooo hoping it was Michael and Jane but now I think it's JR and Petra.

[thelegacies87]

You know, it's funny how this terrible plotline does retroactively ruin any sort of rewatch for me. It's final season of Lost ruined! You know during one of Jane's dozens of "I realize I love THIS man" moment(this one about Michael), it plays that song "A Thousand Years"(I think that's what it's called).  If someone would rewatch, when Michael was still dead, it makes that song really bittersweet. Michael's gone, but Jane will love him, always.

Now? I'd just think, "Hmmm, I'd say like four years, then he'd get tortured, lose his memories and five years later, Jane will be like PEACE!"

This is why this storyline is befuddles me so much! They had fans come to peace with Michael's death. I was a Michael/Jane shipper, but of the last two seasons; the longest stretch of episodes I liked most were when Jane and Rafael got together(that includes married Jane and Michael storyline). The show was able to respect both fanbases. But this? It barely respects anyone. A cheap ploy for seven episodes, that ends with Jane where she started and Raf five steps back and Michael alive and dumped. And now Ro and Michael scene because "reasons" that again, feel disrespectful towards the fans.

I just wish the show would've focused on Jane and Raf, on Jane and Petra, on Jane and Xo(have they had any nice moments together this season?), on Jane and Ro(have they?). To use your final season this way...it blows my mind. 

And it's all the writing. The cast is phenomenal and can't wait to see where they all go(Gina is a freakin' star, I hope Brett finds a great comedy, and Justin is getting to be a big time director! Yael needs her own show). The direction is sharp. But man, the plots...I haven't enjoyed Jane much in the past two seasons(the Adam storyline, the terrible storyline with Ro's rival soap star and Jane...) but towards the back half of season 4, I was soooo back in. And now, I think I'm just 100% out. I'll see the final episode on netflix or something.

Edited May 10, 2019 by thelegacies87

[Simba122504]

On 5/9/2019 at 10:26 AM, SnarkEnthusiast said:

I have an appointment to get my eyebrows waxed so I can't write a long post now, but getting my hair ripped out by the root will be more pleasant than this pile of literal horseshit.

Fuck this show. Even dumbass Jachael deserved better. And I thought the last fantasy was supposed to communicate Raf would eventually recover if Jane chose Jachael???

He would but that's not what she wanted. She wanted to be him no matter what. That's why she kept having those possible outcomes if she picked Michael. Yes, he would move on but she doesn't want him to because she's in love with him and really, really wants to be with him.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Simba122504
Added word

[BAH]

Brett did find a good comedy, but the season is over.  I want Brett to do more than sitcoms and TV though.

i want him to get movie roles. He’s really a character actor , and I want him to get to play a large range of people because I think he can. Gina and Justin will always sort of be Gina and Justin in their roles, but Brett can really disappear. 

[Brinny]

The contrast of having your heroine abandon the love interest who tells her that he just wants her to be happy for the love interest who has repeatedly told her this season that he wants her to leave his face because he can’t be around her is BONKERS. 

Full bias disclosure: I loooooved Jane and Michael. I cried when he died. (Okay. I cried at how beautifully Gina Rodriguez acted in the scene where she finds out that Michael died.) I think Brett Dier and Gina Rodriguez have amazing chemistry.  BUT I also loved the slow build romance that they gave Jane and Raf. It showed so much growth for both characters and it was written so it happened organically.

This? This is garbage. 

You wanna have Jane/Raf as your end game? Cool. You wanna bring Michael back from the dead? Yeaaaaah. Okay. It’s a telenovella. Gotcha. And you wanna make it so he has amnesia that goes away in a few episodes? Sure. Why not?

But why on earth are they not writing this the other way around? As a viewer, if I’m supposed to root for Rafael as Jane’s destiny, shouldn’t he be the one telling Jane that he loves her no matter what and just wants to be happy? Shouldn't Michael be the sullen one who is disappointed and angry at her lingering feelings for a guy from the past? Are they going for trope subversion? Are they trying to say that Michael is a “nice guy”? I’m just so confused about everything this season is trying to be. 

[natyxg]

7 hours ago, Brinny said:

The contrast of having your heroine abandon the love interest who tells her that he just wants her to be happy for the love interest who has repeatedly told her this season that he wants her to leave his face because he can’t be around her is BONKERS. 

7 hours ago, Brinny said:

But why on earth are they not writing this the other way around? As a viewer, if I’m supposed to root for Rafael as Jane’s destiny, shouldn’t he be the one telling Jane that he loves her no matter what and just wants to be happy? Shouldn't Michael be the sullen one who is disappointed and angry at her lingering feelings for a guy from the past? Are they going for trope subversion? Are they trying to say that Michael is a “nice guy”? I’m just so confused about everything this season is trying to be. 

IKR????? I totally agree.

I suspect that it all comes down to two things. One, not destroying Michael completely. So they let him be the nice guy who just wants Jane to be happy till the end, instead of making him the bad guy. Secondly, I think they wanted an excuse to break up Jane and Rafael in the last season, to create a "will they get back together or not?" situation (as if there's any doubt *eyeroll*). Therefore, Rafael couldn't be kind and understanding, he had to react like this and break up with Jane.

Edited May 12, 2019 by natyxg

[CerealKiller813]

On 5/9/2019 at 6:47 AM, CooperTV said:

I'm again not going to comment about the ship wars and fandom biases. I'd say this. I'm glad the two most boring episodes are out of the way and that we can finally focus on the main relationships and the female and male leads that have their own storylines.

But I'm glad Jane decided tenth time this season she loves Rafael despite everything. I'm also glad Rafael shut the door to her face. You doesn't get to go on romantic vacation with some person you have feelings for and expect there's no consequences at home about that.

PS: I've seen that comment on Reddit where people suggested Rafael is the one who's supposed to apologize for his behaviour towards Jane at the end. And

LOL.

YES. YES. YES TO EVERYTHING YOU SAID.

BTW that gif had me spit out my coffee 😂 😂 

[smartymarty]

I've "loved" enough of what others have said (anger at her not choosing Michael, odd way of writing the episode), so I'll just add that thought at the end of the episode is that they're going to a "Kelly Martin I choose me" ending (or do we now refer to that as a CXG ending?). I would prefer that to her being with Raf. Yes, I'm a Jane-Michael shipper. And I reluctantly allowed for Jane to be with Raf after they developed a friendship after Michael's Not Death. But he always seemed a second choice, a comfortable, convenient choice, for Jane. Not the love of a lifetime that Michael was.

On a much smaller note, though they probably did it for the optics of leaving Jane alone, WTF at the end with Michael dumping her out on some crossroads to wait for the bus by herself??? They should instead have had him wistfully watch her leave on the bus without him.

[amaranta]

I totally agree with everyone who said this ruins ever rewatching.  That was total bullshit. 

I'm not pissed that Jane is going to end up with Raf; I do believe that was always going to happen. I am pissed, and do care, about what the show has now taken away.  One of those things was perhaps my favorite TV wedding ever.  The joyous chemistry that Gina and Brett had just flew off the screen, filled the room and enveloped the viewer.  Then the incredible work that Gina did when Michael was shot, the fear and the shock.  Their happiness after his recovery and being so damn cute together.  And Gina just knocking it out of the park portraying the incredible depth of Jane's grief when Michael died.  All of those moments - no longer watchable.  

Can not be said enough - Michael was kidnapped, tortured, lost everyone and everything he loved and held dear.  To leave this out of the show, to not even pay it decent lip service - total bullshit.

After he got his memory back, ignoring his relationship with Rogelio - (yes, you guessed it) total bullshit.

I can't remember when I last unchecked a show on Netflix from my watchlist but JtV came off last night.

I'm usually a completist and will stay with a show until the bitter end, but right now I'm undecided. 

Once more with feeling: bullshit.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, smartymarty said:

a "Kelly Martin I choose me" ending

As a fan of 90s tv, I feel compelled to nitpick this. Kellie Martin is the actress who played Becca Thatcher on Life Goes On. Kelly Taylor was the character on 90210.

[Jessa]

I haaaaaaated that episode. Every single little thing about it. Except the animals. 

[smartymarty]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Kelly Taylor was the character on 90210.

Thank you.

25 minutes ago, Jessa said:

I haaaaaaated that episode. Every single little thing about it. Except the animals. 

I liked when Jane and Michael finally kissed. But then the rest of the episode took that away from me. I liked the horses and Bo.

[Jessa]

2 hours ago, smartymarty said:

I liked when Jane and Michael finally kissed. But then the rest of the episode took that away from me. I liked the horses and Bo.

I guess I was indifferent to the kiss. It was sweet, but I don't really care who she picks anymore. 

[mrsbagnet]

When Jane and Michael broke up and had the "our time has passed" speech, my first thought was that that scene destroyed the entire premise of the show. Isn't finding true love, happily ever after, the basis of both the show and Jane's writing? And yet, she told Michael, "I love someone else now," which shows that love is fleeting, depends on timing, etc. (Which of course is true IRL, but this is TV). 

So what are they doing here? Blowing up the premise of the show? Being subversive and upending the telenovela 'true love' trope? Just trying to reflect real life? I'm not sure what to think.

Edited May 13, 2019 by mrsbagnet

[funnygirl]

48 minutes ago, mrsbagnet said:

When Jane and Michael broke up and had the "our time has passed" speech, my first thought was that that scene destroyed the entire premise of the show. Isn't finding true love, happily ever after, the basis of both the show and Jane's writing? And yet, she told Michael, "I love someone else now," which shows that love is fleeting, depends on timing, etc. (Which of course is true IRL, but this is TV). 

So what are they doing here? Blowing up the premise of the show? Being subversive and upending the telenovela 'true love' trope? Just trying to reflect real life? I'm not sure what to think.

That's because Rafael is her true love, not Michael. 

[blugirlami21]

I thought the episode was interesting. I knew the triangle would be resolved in Rafael's favor but I didn't know how it would be done. I thought the episode spent way too much time on growing pains. I do wish that Jane and Michael had an in depth conversation about their feelings but we got what we got.

I appreciated Jane's daydreams about the future. I noticed that in almost all of them Rafael was fine. They we're still able to successfully coparent despite Jane being with Michael. What I found interesting was Jane was never completely satisfied with any of those scenarios. Now that I think about it the most interesting thing about those scenarios is the fact that Rafael was in them at all. She literally couldn't imagine a future without Rafael in it.

I've rewatched this series a couple of times and it's always painfully obvious to me that Jane and Rafael are the stars of the show. They are the main couple. There are legit periods of the earlier seasons of the show where Michael does not appear.  They killed Michael off the show. Jane's relationship with Rafael is the longest one she has ever had, he's the father of her child and he's her best friend.

In the earlier seasons of the show Michael was her safe, well thought out plan. Being with him was easy. She told Xo in season one that being with Rafael was much more dangerous and scary because she had to follow her heart and not her head.

I'm glad the triangle has finally been put to rest. Obviously not to everyone's satisfaction but there were always gonna be an upset fanbase regardless.

I'm excited to see the rest of the season. Sad to see it end.

[Irlandesa]

I'm still not sure what this arc was about.  I feel like it's sacrificing narrative satisfaction for some reason that I can't get a handle on. 

Was it to reenforce Jane and Rafael being end game?  I've been on that ship since Season 1.  I've never wavered and I didn't feel like Jane needed to make some definitive choice or ultimate love so bringing Michael back wasn't necessary. I always felt she'd end up with Raf and Michael always felt as a means to an end (the end being Jane suffering a big loss and having to start over, not specifically end game Rafael.)

Was it to bring Brett Dier back because they loved him?  I like Brett but Michael lived his purpose of "loving Jane until his very last breath" which was a nice bit of foreshadowing but now seems a bit iffy (unless they do some sort of last minute end game switch but I don't expect that to happen).  Was that just for Michael but now that he's a Jason/Michael hybrid it doesn't apply?  Or does he die with an unrequited love?

I frankly would have been more interested in exploring some of the things we found out and how that knowledge feels different to a 30 year old compared to a 23 year old.  For instance, we learned Michael withheld career information from her "for her own good" for the second time.  That's not some huge outrageous sin but, while it might not have mattered in the honeymoon phase, there's the risk of it mattering later. Jane (and Michael?) married pretty young.  Couples can either grow together or grow apart.  Being a widow for four years changed Jane and being someone else for four years changed Michael.  It's not even that they simply grew apart but they may have grown into people who look back at that early marriage and realize that's not what they'd choose for their current selves.

I guess looking back would have been more interesting to me than seeing how they don't quite fit in Montana.

Another short cut they used was with Rafael.  They had him ask Jane to leave and while I get his reasoning of not wanting to stick around while Jane explored her feelings for another man, even if the other guy's situation was extraordinary, I think it would have been more satisfying to see a conversation about it.  Or, when it comes to going to therapy to treat the sadness he feels (yay!), I would have preferred seeing that decision rather than the tease of pill popping. 

As for Brogelio, I'm not surprised they didn't have more scenes.   I always felt that Rogelio was more into Michael than Michael was into him.  In fact, I think that's true of both Rogelio and Xio.  In season 1, Xio was such a huge Michael supporter but she rarely had scenes with him.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Irlandesa

[AllyB]

I don't think I can watch this anymore. Rafael is mentally and emotionally abusive and we're set up now to watch Jane plead with her abuser to love her and finally see her end up with him. It's beyond messed up. I've never, ever quit a show so close to the end (I'm still watching iZombie because even though it's dire now, the end is in sight) but this is literally a romance about what is in no uncertain terms a highly abusive relationship with the certain potential to only get significantly worse. I was more than happy to see Jane and Rafael end up together, I think their romance had grown believably and healthily in S4 but they've destroyed his character in a way that means it's a long, long, long time and a tonne of therapy and self-realisation before any woman should be in anyway involved with him.

[smartymarty]

14 hours ago, funnygirl said:

That's because Rafael is her true love, not Michael. 

Heresy! (Michael-shipper) (jk).

[Simba122504]

On 5/13/2019 at 4:55 PM, mrsbagnet said:

When Jane and Michael broke up and had the "our time has passed" speech, my first thought was that that scene destroyed the entire premise of the show. Isn't finding true love, happily ever after, the basis of both the show and Jane's writing? And yet, she told Michael, "I love someone else now," which shows that love is fleeting, depends on timing, etc. (Which of course is true IRL, but this is TV). 

So what are they doing here? Blowing up the premise of the show? Being subversive and upending the telenovela 'true love' trope? Just trying to reflect real life? I'm not sure what to think.

Because Rafael is her true love. They're your typical telenovela couple. J/M were never that. The first male character introduced in the pilot is Rafael. This is after the "Meant to be" scene in TPoS. We meet him through a telenovela. Michael doesn't get an introduction nor is he the male lead.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Simba122504
Removed double word

[smartymarty]

9 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I guess looking back would have been more interesting to me than seeing how they don't quite fit in Montana.

Yes, I would have been satisfied with that. People change. They (and I) would be sad for what they had, but understand what happened.

But Michael still loves her but she loves Rafael? Nope. Doesn't work for me.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, Simba122504 said:

Because Rafael is her true love. They're your typical telenovela couple. J/M were never that. The first male character introduced in the pilot is Rafael. This is after the "Meant to be" scene in the TPoS. We meet him through a telenovela. Michael doesn't get an introduction nor is he the male lead.

Which is fine that it was the initial idea, but the problem is that the show has blossomed past that. This was the issue with HIMYM a few years back. The showrunners were so stuck in their initial premise that they missed the point where their characters grew past their initial endgame.

Not that Jane/Rafael can't end up together, but the show is treating Michael like the guy from the pilot, not the character who became important to the series and his own character. 

[blugirlami21]

And I would counter that to say the show grew so much more after Michael's death.  Perspective is everything.  I never saw Michael as endgame, nothing he did on the show spoke of permanence.  His death was the catalyst for Jane to grow as a character through that loss but she grew beyond him and that relationship in the end.  Regardless of who she ends up with, the show is ultimately about more than the love triangle. 

[thelegacies87]

3 hours ago, blugirlami21 said:

And I would counter that to say the show grew so much more after Michael's death.  Perspective is everything.  I never saw Michael as endgame, nothing he did on the show spoke of permanence.  His death was the catalyst for Jane to grow as a character through that loss but she grew beyond him and that relationship in the end.  Regardless of who she ends up with, the show is ultimately about more than the love triangle. 

Except we spent 7 episodes that were only about the love triangle. I agree it's not what the show is about and they moved beyond it...then they didn't and didn't backslide but backskid. If someone can tell me we gained anything from this arc?

[Irlandesa]

8 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Which is fine that it was the initial idea, but the problem is that the show has blossomed past that. This was the issue with HIMYM a few years back. The showrunners were so stuck in their initial premise that they missed the point where their characters grew past their initial endgame.

I don't see the similarities between this and HIMYM.  HIMYM trapped itself by having an initial premise (dad talking to kids about their mother who was not Robin), and a specific ending (Ted & Robin after mom dies) but way too much freedom in the middle to improvise. It was in the improvisation where they lost their way.  Still, it might have worked if they hadn't made the colossally bad decision of spending the final season introducing us to a very likable mother we grew to care about and building up to the wedding of a couple who had quite a few fans only to completely undo it all in one episode.  The finale was divorce, death and the return to a couple who hadn't been in serious contention (especially on her end) in years. Now had they spent the premiere of the final season marrying Barney and Robin and Ted meeting the mother only to spend the final season deconstruction and reconstructing, it might have worked better. Or just not reunited Barney and Robin but instead have Robin fall in love with Ted.

And the main reason they went with the ending they chose?  Because they had already filmed it years before due to the logistics of the young actors aging.

JTV, on the other hand, always had a five year plan according to Jennie.  That's not to say there weren't changes or improvisation but the major steps of Jane's life were basically laid out.  The show always invested in Jane and Rafael, even when she was 100% committed to Michael.  It was in Jane's less than thrilled reactions with the knowledge that Rafael was over her and with his relationship with Catalina.  It was that they were in constant negotiation over disagreements as co-parents.

This arc disrupted the flow of the story but the trajectory of the story is still headed in the same direction it has been headed in for the past season and a half. 

8 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Not that Jane/Rafael can't end up together, but the show is treating Michael like the guy from the pilot, not the character who became important to the series and his own character. 

I think they're writing this Michael as basically the same guy he was at the end of the second season/beginning of the 3rd season whose singular focus is Jane. Early Michael was more of a character to me.  He had selfish desires.  He had flaws.  He had consequences to those flaws.  He had passion for a career.  He had a shady brother who hinted at a darker past. 

When they decided to kill him off (and marry him to Jane), all of that went away. 

[Simba122504]

On 5/14/2019 at 10:19 AM, Lady Calypso said:

Which is fine that it was the initial idea, but the problem is that the show has blossomed past that. This was the issue with HIMYM a few years back. The showrunners were so stuck in their initial premise that they missed the point where their characters grew past their initial endgame.

Not that Jane/Rafael can't end up together, but the show is treating Michael like the guy from the pilot, not the character who became important to the series and his own character. 

The series never lied if you follow the narrative and understand the tropes. It was always Jane & Rafael. The series beat us over the head with anvils and scenes between them. It’s not nothing like HIMYM. Michael has missed more episodes than any other main character. Nor he did have an in depth background like everyone else. 

[truebluesmoky]

I keep wondering if they created the Charlie character in Montana as a possible love interest for Michael for us to see in, like, a finale flash forward or something.

I don’t see Raf’s treatment of Jane as emotionally abusive. I see it as him trying to protect himself. This is a man who has had a tremendous amount of trauma in his life, with regard to his parents, sister, precious marriage, etc., not to mention cancer and substance abuse. He did the right thing by bringing Michael back, but at a certain point, he has to protect his own mental health, especially since Jane has a history of breaking his heart.

[rove4]

On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 10:25 PM, blugirlami21 said:

I've rewatched this series a couple of times and it's always painfully obvious to me that Jane and Rafael are the stars of the show. They are the main couple. There are legit periods of the earlier seasons of the show where Michael does not appear.  They killed Michael off the show. Jane's relationship with Rafael is the longest one she has ever had, he's the father of her child and he's her best friend

Exactly this (except that I haven't rewatched the whole series yet). But I agree that this show has always been about both Jane and Rafael...mostly Jane, of course, but Rafael has been the second lead.  That was set up plainly at the very start of the pilot episode.  If memory serves, it starts with Jane and the POV pans across town to Rafael.  It's why Rafael has always had his own storylines that have not been about Jane at all whereas Michael, as nice of a guy as he was/is, never had that.  He's always been a part of Jane's story without really have one of his own.  That telegraphs to me that this narrative was always about Jane and Rafael, two storyline strands that have sometimes run together, other times have run parallel to each other, and still other times have run in seemingly opposite directions.  It's been the story of two people who are not always on the same page at the same time but always working towards that point.  And doing it in a telenovela format to add in extra craziness like characters coming back from the "dead" with amnesia.

Jane and Rafael were always going to be endgame but that doesn't nullify what she and Michael had and I'm not sure I get why some people feel that way, or that this episode somehow ruins all rewatches.  And I was a super disappointed Lost watcher so I know about ruined rewatches.  Everything that Jane ever said to Michael back then was 100% true and honest at the time and if he had lived, who knows?  They'd still be together most likely.  But that didn't happen.  She honestly thought he had died, she mourned, and then she slowly (in tv time) moved on with her life.  Feelings of love can morph even when both parties are still together and alive so of course they're going to morph when one is thought to be permanently out of the picture.  Jane still loves Michael, of course she does, it's just not romantic love anymore.  It's harder to say what the nature of Jacheal's love is now because the show didn't really explore that.  It would've been nice if it had but, here again, this is not and has never been Michael's story; it's not about his developmental journey.  It's about the journeys of those other two sides of the triangle.  But even with that, I don't understand how this ruins Michael's character or his past with Jane. 

[rove4]

I also think there's a bit of a reverse double standard at work here with some people thinking Rafael owes Jane an apology or that he should be sitting patiently waiting for Jane to decide how the rest of his life will go.  Jane absolutely has the right to explore what she feels for both men but that doesn't mean that Rafael, who has been down this same road before, should be content to wait for heartbreak to shatter him again.  If the genders were swapped I think there'd be a large chorus of people rooting for Jane to wash that man right out of her hair, to empower herself by taking the choice back for herself.  Apparently Rafael isn't allowed to the same.