S08.E03: The Long Night

[terrymct]

6 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Jon is a Targeryan who doesnt need Dany's permission to do anything- something I'm willing to bet the dragons are keenly aware of and their behavior towards him will be the thing which convinces her he really is the rightful King.

Yes, we know that as watchers.  I was talking about why people in the castle might not have been surprised that Jon was riding a dragon.

[tv-talk]

Just now, terrymct said:

I was talking about why people in the castle might not have been surprised that Jon was riding a dragon.

Probably because he's already come back from the dead so not much he does at this point is very surprising. 

[dreamcatcher]

On 4/29/2019 at 6:48 AM, 30 Helens said:

Another question: Where were all the identifiable dead Starks among the crypt rising dead? Seems like a wasted opportunity not to see Lyanna, Catelyn, and especially headless Ned.

I assume the only people we could actually see is Lyanna and Rickon. It definitely was a wasted opportunity and it was so rushed. If they didn’t have that much time to devote to this storyline, they should have cut it altogether.

On 4/29/2019 at 7:22 AM, Leroux said:

The WW was never a problem of just the North, they were the first ones on the line of fire it is true but Daenerys claims to be the protector of the whole realm so it is fitting that she was doing her job to protect the realm. 

While I do like Dany, I don’t applaud her for cobtributing to the war. Protecting the realm is literally the job she is trying to claim. That’s the reason why i want Cersei to face consequences for not defending the realm instead of seeing Dany conquering the throne.

On 4/29/2019 at 10:00 PM, Neurochick said:

Yes, what WAS that score at the end?  It did sound out of place.  Not very "Game of Thrones-y"

It is the end of the night king theme so it was fitting in that sense...it didn’t seem to out of place to me but it was obvious something was going to happen by the change in music.

On 4/30/2019 at 2:40 AM, LadyChaos said:

He literally told everyone in the great room, "EVERY MAN AND WOMAN between the ages of 10-60 would train to fight'  That includes Sansa.

That kinda contradicts the fact that he himself wanted a brother of the night’s watch to stay in the crypts and was just as fine with Tyrion staying in there.

On 4/30/2019 at 5:23 AM, JonasArm said:

The win would have been to see her do something positive. At the battle of Blackwater she at least sang and comforted the other women. Here she did none of the sort. She did not use the dagger, she did not try to lift up the spirit but she bitched about Danny who was on the battlefield risking her life.

Was she risking her life though? She was up in the sky, riding a dragon the whole time and the plan was for her to stay out of the battle to begin with. I was glad she went in to help, but she was just as useless when she was forced to fight and got Jorah killed defending her. I don’t see anyone blaming Dany for not knowing how to fight, especially considering she’s the Queen and Sansa isn’t.

On 4/30/2019 at 6:26 AM, sistermagpie said:

I just watched the ep and one thing I was looking out for was imagining Sansa comforting anyone in the crypt and it really seemed like it would have been tone deaf of her to try to do anything like that. I feel like people would have even found it disrespectful. She did in the end seem to find courage to me, when she took out her knife she had little idea how to use. (Luckily she'd gotten lesson one.)

Exactly! These are Northerns who are well aware that they’re fighting the dead, not another Baratheon. I highly doubt they would appreciate prayers and songs or any stupid pep talk considering that they are dealing with the end of the world and they’re not that kind of people to begin with.

On 4/30/2019 at 6:50 AM, Giselle said:

She still has to pay for the sins of her youth. Season 1 Episode 1 she lied & sold out her family because she was smitten with Joffery.

Only right she continues to pay till her dying day.

...why? The was the most minor offense out of all the offenses we’ve seen on the show and she was a teenager raised to be a rather romantic lady. If anything, I fault a seasoned northern fighter for raising such a naive daughter. How can we forgive a man who literally shoved a kid out of a window, who literally betrayed ans actively got involved in Ned’s wedding, a kingslayer who committed treason against 3 different monarchs (king aerys, fucking Baratheon’s queen and fathering all his heirs, disobeying his queen and going north), who slaughtered the tyrells just because his girlfriend needed their gold and who oh yeah, is fucking his sister, but we can’t forgive a child who made a mistake and paid dearly for that? Mind you, I actually like Jaime but I’m tired of people hating a little girl but fangirling over worse characters who just happen to be sexy guys. Don’t even get me started on theon who did worse things and still is more liked than sansa.

On 4/30/2019 at 9:11 PM, Macbeth said:

I don't get how he was defeated in the past?  They built the wall to keep him out.  How could they have stopped him in the past without killing him?

SO MUCH THIS. How come no one has thought of asking Bran how the hell they’d successfully pushed him back the first time and kept him there for centuries? Seriously?

On 4/30/2019 at 9:58 PM, screamin said:

Except she didn't. After panicking and hiding - which I agree was not her finest moment, though it's to be noted that Tyrion (who HAS actual battle experience) did exactly the same thing - she pulled out a dagger first and wordlessly agreed with Tyrion to charge out and fight instead of waiting in hiding for either rescue or death.

There was apparently a scene of Tyrion and her taking on a wight together which was cut for time. https://twitter.com/StarkyRed/status/1122883459754745856

 It WAS filmed though, so there won't be subsequent scenes of other characters rebuking her for not fighting.

I’m so annoyed they cut such a small scene that would at least stop the haters. I mean, it’s quite obvious something was missing as they pulled out the swords and them magically appeared in a different hiding spot.

On 4/30/2019 at 10:20 PM, Sakura12 said:

Especially when Dany another non fighter picked up sword rather then that Jorah do all the work or ran and hid in the flames. Which she could've done. She'd lose her clothes but the dead couldn't get her. 

She picked up the sword but did nothing with it. If we’re going to give shit to a non fighting character who was meant to be in the crypt for not learning how to fight, we need to give just as much shit to Dany for never thinking that this outcome was very much likely.

On 5/1/2019 at 2:18 AM, LadyChaos said:

Im honestly surprised that outside of the Little Bear (may she rest in peace) no one has brought into question where Sansa's loyalties lie.  I mean all those people stressing about Danerys and Tyrion....no one mentions that Sansa used to be married to Tyrion, and then married a usurper in the North, Bolton.....

Because they are all aware of the fact that she was essentially a prisoner in KL and Robb marched north both for her (and Arya) and his father. They all know that she escaped from the Boltons and managed to take them down alongside Jon as well. And has been doing a great job as lady stark.

On 5/1/2019 at 3:30 AM, LadyChaos said:

Or Dany made sure to bring food enough to take care of her own people, at the very least enough for them while they were in transit....... we will never know....Not to mention that they were there for like....2 weeks before the battle...so likely anything Sansa did or didn't do to prepare for them, wouldn't have mattered enough for them to get sick

Sure, they same Dany who burnt the food the Lannister army had just stolen from the Tyrells. I don’t doubt she could have thought about this, but how come we’re speculating on something that has never been even alluded to on the show, when we’ve seen scenes and heard characters talking about Sansa managing the north? Should they have written a whole scene of people praising Sansa for her admin skills to prove the point instead?

21 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

 I expect Bran witnessed a lot of the bad shit that happened to his family, Ned's death, the Red Wedding. That probably traumatized him and "killed" the old Bran into being the Three Eyed Raven.

I haven’t thought about this before but holy shit... that was a kid who wasn’t even nearly prepared for all that info and who has seen his whole family suffering. That would explain while bran!3ER is so cold and distant. Poor thing... it’s kinda sad that the youngest siblings never managed to recover. Arya became a badass, Jon went from lord commander to KITN to Aegon. Sansa survived everyone and got her home back. Rickon died at the hands of traitors and Bran lost his self... 

21 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If Sansa is a loyal subject to Queen Daenerys there should be no conflict of interest.  Besides that, it seem like it might be time for Tyrion to retire as Hand, though it would not be necessary to prevent conflict, as long as Sansa is loyal.   

...the whole point is that Sansa and the whole north want to be independent. They started a rebellion under Robb to get rid of the crown and did the same with Jon. It’s not just a Sansa thing, only Jon is willing to bow to Daenerys. By not letting them be after everything they suffered, Dany DOES oppress the north.

I do see Dany’s point as she came back to win 7 kingdoms and if you accept the request of one kingdom, the rest will follow. But the North has seen nothing but betrayal from the crown. It’s easy for Jon to dismiss this because he’s never been a victim to politics. Sansa was forced to watch her father’s execution and then his head on display. Sansa was abused by her King while everyone was just looking. Sansa was forced to marry the dwarf and had no way of escaping. She managed to escape only to be threaten by her crazy aunt and then be sold off to the Boltons. The north suffered just as much. Why should they bow to Dany now? Yes she helped, but that wasn’t a North problem, that was a humanity problem so it was just as much Dany’s problem. At least she’s smarter than Cersei in realizing that there’s no point in fighting for a throne if the dead win.

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I think the Go Go theory does take away from Arya killing the NK

Nothing can ever happen, at least nothing significant, unless Jon gets at least some of the credit.

It's not enough that Jon told everyone the night before about the importance of killing the Night King, or that he, or he and Daenerys, knocked the Night King off of Viserion. Jon must have an assist with the actual kill because Arya -- if she's even in the scene, for which there's no evidence other than the desire of some fans that she be there -- would otherwise be incapable of doing it herself

But, as you stated, he already did a lot of things to contribute to the NK's defeat and death.  It was a group effort, by thousands.   If he made one more contribution by distracting the ice dragon for a few seconds, while his baby sister  cousin killed the most formidable creature in Westeros in single combat, big deal.   Arya is still the star.

Nobody remembers who set the pick for Michael Jordan on a game winning shot. , or if they do, it in no way diminished Jordan's heroics.     Nobody says, "Yeah, nice shot, but if Luc Longley didn't set that screen, he might not have gotten it off." 

I am really looking forward to seeing how the survivors of Winterfell react to Arya and Dany after the victory.   I think nearly every first born girl in the North will be named Arya for the next 50 years.      

[Bannon]

12 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

So we are to believe that based upon that messed plan that these people can beat Cersei's rested troops? They lost some of the best fighters and numbers are depleted. Not to mention have Dany or Jon ever lost a big battle? We are told to expect the unexpected.

I am a little annoyed by the lack of commentary regarding all of the Dothraki being sent to slaughter and most of the unsullied sacrificed to protect those behind the walls. Tactically nothing they did made sense.

Now I am going to lose grey worm and little bear.  This season is dragging and it is depressing 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjklIz7rP3hAhXH5lQKHazwCYoQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fslate.com%2Fculture%2F2019%2F04%2Fbattle-winterfell-military-analysis-tactics.html&psig=AOvVaw08ZS60cUUfUJjWxHXBVi48&ust=1556903855033897

The strategy and tactics of the living at Winterfell, according to this professor at the Army War College, was not nearly as bad as you are claiming.

[Constantinople]

12 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Jon is a Targeryan who doesnt need Dany's permission to do anything- something I'm willing to bet the dragons are keenly aware of and their behavior towards him will be the thing which convinces her he really is the rightful King.

There is no such thing as a rightful King. If Jon is the "rightful King" it's because of his descent from Aegon the Conqueror.

Quote

Forgive me, Khaleesi, but your ancestor Aegon the Conqueror didn't seize six of the kingdoms because they were his right. He had no right to them. He seized them because he could - Jorah Mormont in You Win or You Die (S1 E7)

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, steelyis said:

To me what separates Melisandre from the others is I think she would kill a hundred more children if the Lord of Light asked it of her. She probably wouldn't like doing it, but I think she'd still do it. And to me redemption requires remorse, atonement and the resolution to never do what condemned you again.

Also that as far as I can tell she's not trying to make amends. Her only regret was that the thing she did turned out to be a mistake. She doesn't think she did anything wrong morally, she just thinks she made a tactical mistake. The Hound and Theon are explicitly trying to be better people than they think they were in the past. (Also Jaime.)

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't know whether that theory is true or not.  But, you could also argue that the simplest explanation for Jon apparently yelling "Go, go!" to an ice dragon was that he was actually yelling to  Arya.  

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't think that is any simpler of an explanation.  Either explanation is possible but both are based upon assumptions.

Jon yelling to Arya is not the simplest explanation and it's based on way bigger assumptions. Really, it's based on the assumption that it's true and then explains away all the things on screen that contradict or don't suggest it.  The reading that Jon is not yelling to Arya is based on is the idea that what we're seeing on screen is what's happening. Of course that doesn't preclude things happening that we don't know about, but there must be a) some good reason to think more explanation is needed (like with R+L=J) and room for those things in what we did see. In this case there isn't either. 

We see every single beat of what Jon does and there is no place for Jon to have seen Arya and decide to yell Go to her and no problem that this would solve.

1) Viserion is swishing his head around, breathing fire. Jon creeps out from behind a wall with his sword and attempts to run past him towards the Godswood. Iow, Jon wants Viserion to not be looking at him.

2) Viseryon turns his head back towards Jon. Jon runs back behind the wall to protect himself. Viseryon shoots fire at him.

3) Jon sits with his back to the wall looking away from the dragon.

4) Jon looks up behind him towards where the dragon is. Hears the dragon. Shakes head in disappointment. He's still sitting with his back to the wall, facing away from the dragon.

5) Jon makes a decision. Stands up with his back still to the wall and away from the dragon. We see the dragon on the other side of the wall, facing Jon, breathing some fire.

6) Jon makes another decision. He stands up and turns around. His eyes go directly to the dragon's face above him.

7) Still looking directly into the dragon's face, Jon yells. He does not clearly yell "go". He could be yelling no or go or simply oh.

8 ) Jon is still looking up into the dragon's face. This is after NK has been killed. The dragon raises its head and crumbles into ice cubes. 

There is not point in any of that where Jon sees anything other than the dragon that catches his attention. No point where Jon is shown reacting to anything other than the dragon and his immediate situation. He's focused on one thing throughout and Kit Harrington is playing one thing throughout. No hint that the dragon saw or was any hindrance to Arya. In fact, it's the opposite. The dragon has been focused on Jon the whole time, whether or not he was yelling at it or hiding.

This theory, imo, doesn't take anything away to Arya but it does seem to be about needing to give something to Jon that the show was intentionally not giving him. 

[Constantinople]

8 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Nobody remembers who set the pick for Michael Jordan on a game winning shot. , or if they do, it in no way diminished Jordan's heroics.     Nobody says, "Yeah, nice shot, but if Luc Longley didn't set that screen, he might not have gotten it off." 

Sports fans say X couldn't have done it without Z's help all of the time, and they spend hours and hours on sports radio arguing about what was more important, what X did or what Z did.

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, dreamcatcher said:

I assume the only people we could actually see is Lyanna and Rickon. It definitely was a wasted opportunity and it was so rushed. If they didn’t have that much time to devote to this storyline, they should have cut it altogether.

While I do like Dany, I don’t applaud her for cobtributing to the war. Protecting the realm is literally the job she is trying to claim. That’s the reason why i want Cersei to face consequences for not defending the realm instead of seeing Dany conquering the throne.

It is the end of the night king theme so it was fitting in that sense...it didn’t seem to out of place to me but it was obvious something was going to happen by the change in music.

That kinda contradicts the fact that he himself wanted a brother of the night’s watch to stay in the crypts and was just as fine with Tyrion staying in there.

Was she risking her life though? She was up in the sky, riding a dragon the whole time and the plan was for her to stay out of the battle to begin with. I was glad she went in to help, but she was just as useless when she was forced to fight and got Jorah killed defending her. I don’t see anyone blaming Dany for not knowing how to fight, especially considering she’s the Queen and Sansa isn’t.

Exactly! These are Northerns who are well aware that they’re fighting the dead, not another Baratheon. I highly doubt they would appreciate prayers and songs or any stupid pep talk considering that they are dealing with the end of the world and they’re not that kind of people to begin with.

...why? The was the most minor offense out of all the offenses we’ve seen on the show and she was a teenager raised to be a rather romantic lady. If anything, I fault a seasoned northern fighter for raising such a naive daughter. How can we forgive a man who literally shoved a kid out of a window, who literally betrayed ans actively got involved in Ned’s wedding, a kingslayer who committed treason against 3 different monarchs (king aerys, fucking Baratheon’s queen and fathering all his heirs, disobeying his queen and going north), who slaughtered the tyrells just because his girlfriend needed their gold and who oh yeah, is fucking his sister, but we can’t forgive a child who made a mistake and paid dearly for that? Mind you, I actually like Jaime but I’m tired of people hating a little girl but fangirling over worse characters who just happen to be sexy guys. Don’t even get me started on theon who did worse things and still is more liked than sansa.

SO MUCH THIS. How come no one has thought of asking Bran how the hell they’d successfully pushed him back the first time and kept him there for centuries? Seriously?

I’m so annoyed they cut such a small scene that would at least stop the haters. I mean, it’s quite obvious something was missing as they pulled out the swords and them magically appeared in a different hiding spot.

She picked up the sword but did nothing with it. If we’re going to give shit to a non fighting character who was meant to be in the crypt for not learning how to fight, we need to give just as much shit to Dany for never thinking that this outcome was very much likely.

Because they are all aware of the fact that she was essentially a prisoner in KL and Robb marched north both for her (and Arya) and his father. They all know that she escaped from the Boltons and managed to take them down alongside Jon as well. And has been doing a great job as lady stark.

Sure, they same Dany who burnt the food the Lannister army had just stolen from the Tyrells. I don’t doubt she could have thought about this, but how come we’re speculating on something that has never been even alluded to on the show, when we’ve seen scenes and heard characters talking about Sansa managing the north? Should they have written a whole scene of people praising Sansa for her admin skills to prove the point instead?

I haven’t thought about this before but holy shit... that was a kid who wasn’t even nearly prepared for all that info and who has seen his whole family suffering. That would explain while bran!3ER is so cold and distant. Poor thing... it’s kinda sad that the youngest siblings never managed to recover. Arya became a badass, Jon went from lord commander to KITN to Aegon. Sansa survived everyone and got her home back. Rickon died at the hands of traitors and Bran lost his self... 

...the whole point is that Sansa and the whole north want to be independent. They started a rebellion under Robb to get rid of the crown and did the same with Jon. It’s not just a Sansa thing, only Jon is willing to bow to Daenerys. By not letting them be after everything they suffered, Dany DOES oppress the north.

I do see Dany’s point as she came back to win 7 kingdoms and if you accept the request of one kingdom, the rest will follow. But the North has seen nothing but betrayal from the crown. It’s easy for Jon to dismiss this because he’s never been a victim to politics. Sansa was forced to watch her father’s execution and then his head on display. Sansa was abused by her King while everyone was just looking. Sansa was forced to marry the dwarf and had no way of escaping. She managed to escape only to be threaten by her crazy aunt and then be sold off to the Boltons. The north suffered just as much. Why should they bow to Dany now? Yes she helped, but that wasn’t a North problem, that was a humanity problem so it was just as much Dany’s problem. At least she’s smarter than Cersei in realizing that there’s no point in fighting for a throne if the dead win.

Dany killed multiple wight with the sword she picked up near the end of the battle.  And she put herself in great danger throughout the battle. Comparing her to Sansa hiding in the crypts and spreading negativity is absurd.

The Northern independence movement under Robb, was a reaction to Ned being killed by Joffrey.  It wasn't against being part of the 7 Kingdoms in general, but against Joffrey.

IIRC, Renly offered Robb, through Catelyn a deal where Robb could call himself KITN and the North would have a lot of autonomy, as long as he bent the knee to Renly.   It seemed like this deal would have been accepted.  

If the Northerners know the King/Queen of the 7 Kingdoms is a friend of the North, they might not be as determined to be independent.   

The King in the North already bent the knee to Daenerys, which was clearly not a popular move.  But, now that they have seen the risks she took and the great sacrifices she made to defend the North, I suspect her approval rating will skyrocket.   I could understand Sansa being skeptical before, from this point on, barring some horrible turn by Daenerys, any resistance from Sansa would be based upon pettiness and jealousy, not a desire for what is best for the North.   

[tv-talk]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

This theory, imo, doesn't take anything away to Arya but it does seem to be about needing to give something to Jon that the show was intentionally not giving him. 

Yeah it's fine as a theory and not something that can be disproved but it does appear there is a thirst to not have had Arya be The One who killed the NK. I took Jon and the dragon to be same as the other scenes which were playing out- they were showing you that everyone was about to die, all the characters. At the moment when Arya dropped the knife, it appeared that Jon was about to be fried and everyone else torn to shreds as Arya's has her neck broken. If someone wants to draw out of that that Jon was actually covering for Arya that's fine but it would be a really weird thing for the show to do given they didnt actually show you it happened.

[Drogo]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Did either Bronn or Jamie know how much Cersei wanted elephants?  

If so, wouldn't it be great if they told  Dany and she had some elephants shipped in from Essos for Battle of the Blackwater II, just to spite Cersei? 

What would be really great is if someone up North had fired off ravens to the Iron Bank and the Golden Company letting them know that Cersei Lannister is not one of the Lannisters who always pay their debts (i.e. reneging on her promise to assist with the Battle of Winterfell) and that they will gladly match whatever Cersei promised them in exchange for GC not fighting for Cersei.   

The Iron Bank seemed quite uncertain of Cersei keeping the Iron Throne with Daenerys on her way, and it's not like she has a) a great credit history or b) an unpaid balance with them they're hoping to collect on. 

[DarkRaichu]

4 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Two things, in fairness: lots of visibility issues in the whiteout the NK brought and it was f air distnace from the castle, so maybe didn't see it. It'd be like trying to pick out a single passenger from the window of a moving airplane, I think. Second, LOTS of weird shit went on that night, I feel like post battle they'd be like "Wait, you were riding a fucking dragon???? BADASS." When in reality, their planning sesh probably went like "So Dany and I will for no reason go wait until the Dothraki genocide is complete, THEN we'll use these flying dinosaurs with few weaknesses to roast a bunch of the back line of the opposing infantry by riding on them and making them do so. And by we, I mean both of us, because you know, two dragons and all. Also, I know how to ride one now." If you think of it that way, then the discussion is about "Wait, WHY aren't you starting the battle by toasting a bunch of their FRONT line again? I mean cool that you can ride a dragon [high five Dany AMIRITE??], but tactically I'm not sure we're past why we aren't preemptively striking with our clear firepower advantage again. Also...trebuchets, do we think maybe INSIDE the walls so we can shoot them more than the one volley? again, just asking."

You are questioning your QUEEN ???

[tv-talk]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The King in the North already bent the knee to Daenerys, which was clearly not a popular move

If Sam spills the beans on Jon's lineage you would expect the North would immediately line up behind him and expect that Dany bent the knee. You can also envision Sansa and Arya being fully onboard with it. I hope the show goes that direction for the tension it would cause but I suspect instead it'll "Dany the Wonderful" instead.

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Sports fans say X couldn't have done it without Z's help all of the time, and they spend hours and hours on sports radio arguing about what was more important, what X did or what Z did.

But when a player makes a spectacular game winning play, they don't take away credit by acknowledging the players who played supporting roles.  Nobody will diminish a Super Bowl winning drive by Tom Brady by saying, he couldn't have done it without his offensive line. 

The truth is, he probably couldn't.  But, it is also true that few if any other QBs could have done what he did with the same offensive line.   

Few people if any, people in Westeros, other than Arya Stark, could have pulled off that play, with or without Jon distracting the dragon.  Whether or not Jon actually did this is totally irrelevant to the level of glory Arya deserves and will receive.   

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

If Sam spills the beans on Jon's lineage you would expect the North would immediately line up behind him and expect that Dany bent the knee. You can also envision Sansa and Arya being fully onboard with it. I hope the show goes that direction for the tension it would cause but I suspect instead it'll "Dany the Wonderful" instead.

If it comes down to Jon vs. Dany  the North would  back Jon.  But, I suspect Jon has no interest in sitting on the IT, and will back Dany.   I believe only he, Dany, Sam and Bran currently know his true identity.  I think he might try to keep it a secret.   I don't think he has even told Sansa yet, and I suspect that is intentional. 

It is possible that Sam will leak the information out of bitterness towards Dany for roasting his POS father and his brother Rickon Dickon (Ha!)

Edited May 2, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Lemuria]

25 minutes ago, dreamcatcher said:

That kinda contradicts the fact that he himself wanted a brother of the night’s watch to stay in the crypts and was just as fine with Tyrion staying in there.

Not really.  IMO, he knew that time was short, most people would not have sufficient time to reach warrior status and thus would not be all that useless on the front lines.  However, I think he wanted everyone train so that, when push came to shove, they could defend themselves and those totally unable to fight (eg very young children) enough that they might be able to save themselves and/or buy time to flee. 

As to Sam and Tyrion:  I think he knew what kind of hand-to-hand fighters they made and felt that they would be more of a liability than an assist fighting on the walls.  JMO; YMMV

[dreamcatcher]

13 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Dany killed multiple wight with the sword she picked up near the end of the battle.  And she put herself in great danger throughout the battle. Comparing her to Sansa hiding in the crypts and spreading negativity is absurd.

The Northern independence movement under Robb, was a reaction to Ned being killed by Joffrey.  It wasn't against being part of the 7 Kingdoms in general, but against Joffrey.

IIRC, Renly offered Robb, through Catelyn a deal where Robb could call himself KITN and the North would have a lot of autonomy, as long as he bent the knee to Renly.   It seemed like this deal would have been accepted.  

If the Northerners know the King/Queen of the 7 Kingdoms is a friend of the North, they might not be as determined to be independent.   

The King in the North already bent the knee to Daenerys, which was clearly not a popular move.  But, now that they have seen the risks she took and the great sacrifices she made to defend the North, I suspect her approval rating will skyrocket.   I could understand Sansa being skeptical before, from this point on, barring some horrible turn by Daenerys, any resistance from Sansa would be based upon pettiness and jealousy, not a desire for what is best for the North.   

No, they said that they bowed to the dragons but they now are back to we know one king the KITN whose name is stark yada yada. I could argue that they would then bow to the dragons again, which they didn’t want to do and I actually took it more like we said yes because we would’ve been toast otherwise and less omg dragons yay i’m here for that. 

Dany literally said that saying Jon is the KITN is treason and she demanded he bends the knee. She hasn’t even entertain the thought of leaving the north be. while Dany is sympathetic to the north,why would they submit again when the next ruler could be another Cersei, Joffrey or Aerys?

I do believe they will go this route of North rallying behind Dany or Dany/Jon getting married to get there, but my point still stands. Sansa is correct that the North should stay independent, but if the people choose Dany or Jon/Aegon, I doubt she will oppose this.

[tv-talk]

Did Sam's girl and their child die? I thought I saw them getting pulled off by the undead but wasnt sure. 

[tv-talk]

2 minutes ago, dreamcatcher said:

Dany literally said that saying Jon is the KITN is treason and she demanded he bends the knee.

I'm really hoping for a scene where Sam points out to Dany that if she doesnt bend the knee to Jon she's committing treason. In the end I'm sure Jon will convince everyone to back Dany but getting from A to B on that would make for some great scenes.

Edited May 2, 2019 by tv-talk

[dreamcatcher]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

If it comes down to Jon vs. Dany  the North would  back Jon.  But, I suspect Jon has no interest in sitting on the IT, and will back Dany.   I believe only he, Dany, Sam and Bran currently know his true identity.  I think he might try to keep it a secret.   I don't think he has even told Sansa yet, and I suspect that is intentional. 

It is possible that Sam will leak the information out of bitterness towards Dany for roasting his POS father and his brother Rickon Dickon (Ha!)

I want people to know only because it would otherwise be too easy for Dany. I’m still team Dany for the IT, but I also need some juicy storylines!

3 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

Not really.  IMO, he knew that time was short, most people would not have sufficient time to reach warrior status and thus would not be all that useless on the front lines.  However, I think he wanted everyone train so that, when push came to shove, they could defend themselves and those totally unable to fight (eg very young children) enough that they might be able to save themselves and/or buy time to flee. 

As to Sam and Tyrion:  I think he knew what kind of hand-to-hand fighters they made and felt that they would be more of a liability than an assist fighting on the walls.  JMO; YMMV

I don’t disagree with this, but saying Sansa disregarded her Lord’s direct order is a bit too much. If he was ok with Sam being in the crypt or then being a liability on the battlefield, I doubt he would be mad at Sansa. And he’s not exactly afraid of Sansa. If he thought she ought to learn how to fight, he would have made a big deal out of it for sure.

I think it’s more likely that they thought no one in the crypts would have to defend themselves and if they did, they were all dead anyway.

[Constantinople]

10 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

If Sam spills the beans on Jon's lineage you would expect the North would immediately line up behind him and expect that Dany bent the knee. You can also envision Sansa and Arya being fully onboard with it. I hope the show goes that direction for the tension it would cause but I suspect instead it'll "Dany the Wonderful" instead.

Perhaps not

We need the King in the North in the north - Lyanna Mormont

It's not clear how the North would react to Jon's Targaryen parentage. But even if they accepted it, I don't think they want a "Northern" king in the South on the Iron Throne, even if he's king of a realm that includes the North. I think they want a North that is independent of the Seven Kingdoms, with its own King who resides in the North. They might be perfectly happy with Daenerys on the Iron Throne as Queen of the South.

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

The biggest thing being overlooked by many (as the prof explains) is the giant strategic victory pulled off by the living at the outset, by getting the NK to fight a decisive battle outside the gates of Winterfell immediately upon the NK's arrival. Given his army has no need for food, water, warmth, or hygeine, if the dead had simply laid siege, the living would have simply had no chance of winning, again, due the dead having a weapon to kill flying dragons.

I don't understand how it was the living who determined the time and place of this fight.  The white walkers marched on Winterfell on the direction of the NK, the humans had no say in the matter.  Sure they could have engaged the white walkers out in the forest somewhere, but fighting from a defensible position was the logical choice.  It was hardly a brilliant move to host the fight at Winterfell, there was no other choice.  As for laying siege, the white walkers are basically a dumb army, they rush forward and that's it.  Tactically, taking them on would be like shooting fish in a barrel.  They have no siege weapons.  All you have to do is keep them off the walls.  That's why in real sieges they put buckets of hot tar on the walls, and lots of heavy objects drop over the sides.  Lob projectiles at them from trebuchets inside the walls.  Archers could easily pick them off as they tried to climb, without having to worry about any ranged counterattack.  Hell, they could have soaked the whole field outside the walls with oil for hundreds of yards, light it with some fire arrows or a little dragon breath and set thousands of them blazing.  The only obstacle they faced, and it was a big one, was the NK's dragon.  But they had two of their own and as we saw, they were able to bring it to ground without getting killed by NK's spear.  The fight was winnable, but that wasn't how the writers wanted it to play out.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Dobian

[dreamcatcher]

1 minute ago, tv-talk said:

I'm really hoping for a scene where Sam points out to Dany that if she doesnt bend the knee to Jon she's committing treason. In the end I'm sure Jon will convince everyone to back Dany but getting from A to B on that would make for some great scenes.

Or we would just see another Tarly getting toasted 😛 but I do want to see Sam sassing Dany tbh.

4 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Did Sam's girl and their child die? I thought I saw them getting pulled off by the undead but wasnt sure. 

No, they were shown at the end with the rest of the survivors. I thought Gilly was the one drawn awAy too.

[Drogo]

Just now, tv-talk said:

I'm really hoping for a scene where Sam points out to Dany that if she doesnt bend the knee to Jon she's committing treason.

Then when she barbecues his insolent ass like she did his father and brother the Northerners will have enough food to get through Winter.

4 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Did Sam's girl and their child die? I thought I saw them getting pulled off by the undead but wasnt sure. 

They're okay - they were with the group of survivors including Sansa, Tyrion, Varys and Missandei at the end when the crypt wights all died of old age waiting for Sansa to not kill them because Arya's a boss.

[taanja]

30 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

There is not point in any of that where Jon sees anything other than the dragon that catches his attention. No point where Jon is shown reacting to anything other than the dragon and his immediate situation. He's focused on one thing throughout and Kit Harrington is playing one thing throughout. No hint that the dragon saw or was any hindrance to Arya. In fact, it's the opposite. The dragon has been focused on Jon the whole time, whether or not he was yelling at it or hiding.

This theory, imo, doesn't take anything away to Arya but it does seem to be about needing to give something to Jon that the show was intentionally not giving him. 

Thank you. I have watched that specific scene several times and I concur-- there is never a time when Jon is looking at anything or anyone except the dragon. and if he is indeed yelling "Go!" -- it is because he is yelling at the dragon to Go! get out of here! Arya isn't in any way involved in that.

[tv-talk]

3 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Then when she barbecues his insolent ass like she did his father and brother the Northerners will have enough food to get through Winter.

The dragon will listen to Jon rather than her and not roast Sam. That's how she and everyone else will know that indeed Jon is the King.

[Constantinople]

11 minutes ago, Dobian said:

As for laying siege, the white walkers are basically a dumb army, they rush forward and that's it.  Tactically, taking them on would be like shooting fish in a barrel.  They have no siege weapons.  All you have to do is keep them off the walls. 

The Army of the Dead doesn't need siege weapons, nor does it need to scale the walls. It could just sit outside Winterfell, preventing anyone from escaping, until the food supplies ran out and people starved to death. In addition, once people started to starve to death in Winterfell, the Night King could raise them from the dead to attack and kill other people within Winterfell.

[GodsBeloved]

17 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Then when she barbecues his insolent ass like she did his father and brother the Northerners will have enough food to get through Winter.

Why would she murder Sam for speaking the truth?

Edited May 2, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[sistermagpie]

26 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

   I could understand Sansa being skeptical before, from this point on, barring some horrible turn by Daenerys, any resistance from Sansa would be based upon pettiness and jealousy, not a desire for what is best for the North.   

I don't think it's pettiness and jealousy for them to want to be independent as a country. They honestly do think it's best for the north--and they're quite possibly right. Dany running the North isn't better for it just because they needed her in this battle. It seems actually potentially just as petty to claim the opposite, that because they needed Dany's armies to fight they have to accept her as their ruler.

Sansa asked her what her intentions were toward the North and she'd probably be very open to an alliance that acknowledges gratitude. But the North has clearly never really considered themselves the rightful subjects of the Iron throne. It was natural for them to rebel for that reason. 

22 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Yeah it's fine as a theory and not something that can be disproved but it does appear there is a thirst to not have had Arya be The One who killed the NK. I took Jon and the dragon to be same as the other scenes which were playing out- they were showing you that everyone was about to die, all the characters. At the moment when Arya dropped the knife, it appeared that Jon was about to be fried and everyone else torn to shreds as Arya's has her neck broken. If someone wants to draw out of that that Jon was actually covering for Arya that's fine but it would be a really weird thing for the show to do given they didnt actually show you it happened.

I think it actually can be disproved within reasonable doubt. The thing about saying something can't be disproved is that nobody can disprove anything. You can't disprove that Jon Stark's parents aren't really Ned Stark and some tavern maid, because whatever obvious facts you have I can just make up some explanation for why it's still true if I want it badly enough. 

It's not even just this particular example that makes me so adamant. I think there's a much bigger problem in the actual world right now with people thinking "true" or "proven" means "emotionally more satisfying to me". 

Though in this situation it occurs to me that this theory is almost the exact inverse of the accusations of Arya as a Mary Sue. In that case people are claiming that despite all the skills they know Arya has, she can't have enough skills to do this particular thing in this particular situation. 

With Jon it's the opposite. Yes, they can allow that Jon didn't kill the NK. But he can't be so helpless as he seems about this particular thing in this particular situation. A stronger case is demanded for the glory she seems to have been given; a stronger case is likewise demanded for why Jon is being denied the glory to which he is entitled.

[DarkRaichu]

17 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The Army of the Dead doesn't need siege weapons, nor does it need to scale the walls. It could just sit outside Winterfell, preventing anyone from escaping, until the food supplies ran out and people starved to death. In addition, once people started to starve to death in Winterfell, the Night King could raise them from the dead to attack and kill other people within Winterfell.

But that's not NK's MO.  He was about marching forward.  In all of interactions with NK, when did he ever lay siege to any defense point??  He had unlimited replenishable troops and used them like tidalwaves

Edited May 2, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[Drogo]

1 minute ago, GodsBeloved said:

Why would she murder Sam for speaking the truth?

Let's ask our first guest..

[Macbeth]

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

IMO, he's definitely screaming Go! Go!   If he was screaming it to Arya, they wouldn't have shown it.  It works much better as one of those things we pick up on rewatch or in post-episode discussions. 

None of this takes away from Arya killing the NK. 

I agree.  It doesn't take away from Arya killing the NK at all.  I was so thrilled to see her do it.

Jon distracting the dragon for a couple of seconds doesn't take away the huge task Arya had in front of her.  (Honestly, it's the least he could do).  Jon didn't have the skill set at all to do it.  The NK was surrounded by the White Walkers and wights - Jon would never have been able to fight through that crowd.

When I saw Jon laboring after the NK in the open field earlier - I was like there is no way Jon was killing him.

It took stealth, no fear, quickness and cunning. Finally Arya's Bravos episodes paid off!

Beric, The Hound and Melissandre (finally doing something useful) helped Arya in her task. It didn't diminish her achievement.  I don't see why Jon's help would.  He is after all part of her pack.   It was a group effort.  

And I don't care I still wanted to see Viserion blast Jon with ice fire just to see what would really have happen to him.

[tv-talk]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think it's pettiness and jealousy for them to want to be independent as a country. They honestly do think it's best for the north--and they're quite possibly right. Dany running the North isn't better for it just because they needed her in this battle. It seems actually potentially just as petty to claim the opposite, that because they needed Dany's armies to fight they have to accept her as their ruler.

The thing is, by Dany's OWN RULES- she needs to bend the knee to Jon. All her claims of being the rightful heir to the IT instead apply to Jon and she would be a hypocrite for not bending the knee to him. That's what I want to see them fully address with no way to wiggle out of it. Jon, not Dany, is the rightful heir and I really want to see how Dany copes with that- especially in the North amongst Jon's people where she's not the ironfisted ruler she's been for awhile now.

[GodsBeloved]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think it's pettiness and jealousy for them to want to be independent as a country. They honestly do think it's best for the north--and they're quite possibly right. Dany running the North isn't better for it just because they needed her in this battle. It seems actually potentially just as petty to claim the opposite, that because they needed Dany's armies to fight they have to accept her as their ruler.

Plus they were talking about being independent before Daenarys was even thought of. First with Robb, then with Jon, while they were and are under Baratheon rule.

[tv-talk]

2 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Beric, The Hound and Melissandre (finally doing something useful) helped Arya in her task.

I thought the writers did a disservice to the Hound, he'd have fought his ass off until getting killed, not cower in fear of death while those around him died. At first I thought it was the fire thing that he couldnt overcome but they made it clear that was not the case.

[GodsBeloved]

11 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

The thing is, by Dany's OWN RULES- she needs to bend the knee to Jon. All her claims of being the rightful heir to the IT instead apply to Jon and she would be a hypocrite for not bending the knee to him. That's what I want to see them fully address with no way to wiggle out of it. Jon, not Dany, is the rightful heir and I really want to see how Dany copes with that- especially in the North amongst Jon's people where she's not the ironfisted ruler she's been for awhile now.

I'd like to see this too and ultimately have the North get their independence, Jon abdicate, and Daenarys get her IT.

10 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

I thought the writers did a disservice to the Hound, he'd have fought his ass off until getting killed, not cower in fear of death while those around him died. At first I thought it was the fire thing that he couldnt overcome but they made it clear that was not the case.

I have to watch again and pay closer attention because I thought it was the fire that paralyzed him.

[Constantinople]

20 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

But that's not NK's MO.  He was about marching forward.  In all of interactions with NK, when did he ever lay siege to any defense point??  He had unlimited replenishable troops and used them like tidalwaves

The ultimate point that someone was trying to make, and with which I agreed in  reply to a reply to a reply, is that it should have been the Night King's MO. He had no need to fight the Battle of Winterfell because he didn't need to worry about feeding or supplying his army. He could have just waited it out.

And it's not as if the Night King was in any rush before. He took 7 Seasons to get to Wall with no apparent plan to get over or around it until he acquired a zombie dragon at the last minute

[dreamcatcher]

31 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think it's pettiness and jealousy for them to want to be independent as a country. They honestly do think it's best for the north--and they're quite possibly right. Dany running the North isn't better for it just because they needed her in this battle. It seems actually potentially just as petty to claim the opposite, that because they needed Dany's armies to fight they have to accept her as their ruler.

Sansa asked her what her intentions were toward the North and she'd probably be very open to an alliance that acknowledges gratitude. But the North has clearly never really considered themselves the rightful subjects of the Iron throne. It was natural for them to rebel for that reason. 

I definitely want Dany to let the North be independent and them backing her up anyway. Or at the very least, show Dany finally accept their request, only for the remaining northmen (if there’s anyone left, at least no nobleman made it out alive...) to decide to stay under her rule. I want her to earn this because truth be told, she needed Winterfell just as much as the north needed her. If both her and Cersei had stayed out of it, the north would have fallen and there’s no way they could have stopped the night king after that. And since she didn’t want to toast KL, she had no other option than getting the rest of the houses on her side. I doubt the north would back her up if she had just stayed in dragonstone without getting involved or gaining Jon’s approval. So what would be the plan? Stay there until Cersei dies (she’s older and an alcoholic so...)and then march to the capital and proclaim yourself Queen like she literally just did with no consequences?

[GodsBeloved]

3 minutes ago, dreamcatcher said:

I definitely want Dany to let the North be independent and them backing her up anyway. Or at the very least, show Dany finally accept their request, only for the remaining northmen (if there’s anyone left, at least no nobleman made it out alive...) to decide to stay under her rule. I want her to earn this because truth be told, she needed Winterfell just as much as the north needed her. If both her and Cersei had stayed out of it, the north would have fallen and there’s no way they could have stopped the night king after that. And since she didn’t want to toast KL, she had no other option than getting the rest of the houses on her side. I doubt the north would back her up if she had just stayed in dragonstone without getting involved or gaining Jon’s approval. So what would be the plan? Stay there until Cersei dies (she’s older and an alcoholic so...)and then march to the capital and proclaim yourself Queen like she literally just did with no consequences?

Exactly.

[Bryce Lynch]

29 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Plus they were talking about being independent before Daenarys was even thought of. First with Robb, then with Jon, while they were and are under Baratheon rule.

They were under JOFFREY Baratheon rule.  Robert was a crappy king, but friendly to the North and nobody was clamoring for independence during his reign.   

They rode South up to try to rescue Ned, Sansa and Arya from the usurper Joffrey.  After Joffrey executed their Lord and Robb won some great battles they declared independence and Robb KITN.   

Even the North's participation in Robert's Rebellion was the result of the murder of their Lord and his eldest son by the Mad King and the supposed kidnapping and rape of their Lord's daughter by the crown prince.   

Naturally, they would be wary of returning to Targaryen rule, after what Aerys did.  But, I think Daenerys has done a tremendous amount to gain their trust and admiration.   If the majority of the North gladly accept her as Queen, it will be interesting to see how Sansa reacts.   She will no longer have the excuse of saying the North doesn't want her and she wants what the North wants.   

[DarkRaichu]

4 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The ultimate point that someone was trying to make, and with which I agreed in  reply to a reply to a reply, is that it should have been the Night King's MO. He had no need to fight the Battle of Winterfell because he didn't need to worry about feeding or supplying his army. He could have just waited it out.

And it's not as if the Night King was in any rush before. He took 7 Seasons to get to Wall with no apparent plan to get over or around it until he acquired a zombie dragon at the last minute

But that would not be consistent with the way NK was shown since the beginning.  Once he found a way to pass an obstacle he just went all in.  Examples would be once he marked Bran, he just went and attacked the old 3ER's lair.  Or once he got a tool to destroy the wall (ie dragon) he stopped waiting and just broke the wall.  

Since he had the tool to break the wall, surely he had enough to destroy a fort like Winterfell

[GodsBeloved]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

They were under JOFFREY Baratheon rule.  Robert was a crappy king, but friendly to the North and nobody was clamoring for independence during his reign.   

They rode South up to try to rescue Ned, Sansa and Arya from the usurper Joffrey.  After Joffrey executed their Lord and Robb won some great battles they declared independence and Robb KITN.   

Even the North's participation in Robert's Rebellion was the result of the murder of their Lord and his eldest son by the Mad King and the supposed kidnapping and rape of their Lord's daughter by the crown prince.   

Naturally, they would be wary of returning to Targaryen rule, after what Aerys did.  But, I think Daenerys has done a tremendous amount to gain their trust and admiration.   If the majority of the North gladly accept her as Queen, it will be interesting to see how Sansa reacts.   She will no longer have the excuse of saying the North doesn't want her and she wants what the North wants.   

Yes, I was including Joffrey in the "under Baratheon rule". I'm also including Cersei because she is the one on the throne now. 

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

They were under JOFFREY Baratheon rule.  Robert was a crappy king, but friendly to the North and nobody was clamoring for independence during his reign.   

They rode South up to try to rescue Ned, Sansa and Arya from the usurper Joffrey.  After Joffrey executed their Lord and Robb won some great battles they declared independence and Robb KITN.   

Even the North's participation in Robert's Rebellion was the result of the murder of their Lord and his eldest son by the Mad King and the supposed kidnapping and rape of their Lord's daughter by the crown prince.   

Naturally, they would be wary of returning to Targaryen rule, after what Aerys did.  But, I think Daenerys has done a tremendous amount to gain their trust and admiration.   If the majority of the North gladly accept her as Queen, it will be interesting to see how Sansa reacts.   She will no longer have the excuse of saying the North doesn't want her and she wants what the North wants.   

But there's a difference between gladly accepting a king/queen and just not currently rebelling. Under the Targaryens and Robert the North wasn't in open rebellion, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't rather have been independent. 

If they did want Dany as their queen yes, I'd expect Sansa to respect that. But I don't see any reason why the North would particularly want Dany to rule them no matter how much they admired her or how grateful they were for her help. Everything they've said makes it seem to me like they'd never pass up the chance to peacefully withdraw into independence. 

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

The Army of the Dead doesn't need siege weapons, nor does it need to scale the walls. It could just sit outside Winterfell, preventing anyone from escaping, until the food supplies ran out and people starved to death. In addition, once people started to starve to death in Winterfell, the Night King could raise them from the dead to attack and kill other people within Winterfell.

In the real world, castles have sat out sieges for longer than a year.  During that time, they can attack the siege army from the castle walls, draining their numbers.  The undead army will be receiving no reinforcements.  They have no ranged attack so you can pick them off from the safety of the walls.  They can be set on fire.  You don't even need the dragons for that.  Start a fire in the mob and it will quickly spread.  They're dumb, they won't know what to do.  You wouldn't need a year to wipe out most of them, it could be done in weeks or even days.  The dragon is the only reason that army could prevail.  Without it they would be useless in a siege.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Dobian

[Constantinople]

53 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

The thing is, by Dany's OWN RULES- she needs to bend the knee to Jon. All her claims of being the rightful heir to the IT instead apply to Jon and she would be a hypocrite for not bending the knee to him.

You mean these rules?

Quote

Jorah: Forgive me, Khaleesi, but your ancestor Aegon the Conqueror didn't seize six of the kingdoms because they were his right. He had no right to them. He seized them because he could.
Daenerys: And because he had dragons.

In any case, rules change

It used to be you couldn't leave the Night's Watch, until Jon did

It used to be you were a member of the Kingsguard for life, until Joffrey kicked out Ser Barristan and Tommen kicked out Jaime

It used to be there were no female knights, until Jaime knighted Brienne

It used to be that the sons of a lord succeeded to the lordship before the lord's daughters, but even though Bran is alive, Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell

And it used to be, at least in the European medieval society on which Westeros is based, you couldn't get a secret annulment to your marriage, and without grounds. (The show runners really effed up on that. Not that I expect them to rectify it with some kind of explanation.  I think we're just supposed to accept it).

And, at least for now, there's no rule that Jon can't abdicate his rights, as Maester Aemon did.

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Yes, I was including Joffrey in the "under Baratheon rule". I'm also including Cersei because she is the one on the throne now. 

Right, but my point is the North would probably not find the rule of the Queen who brought tens of thousands of troops (and lost most of them in battle) and put her own life on the line to defend Winterfell, the North and the Realm as distasteful as the rule of the incest, bastard usurper Joffrey Lannister and his usurper, incestuous, adulterous, mass murdering king slaying mother who currently sits on the Iron Throne.  

I am really anxious to see how the North feels about Daenerys post battle of Winterfell.  

[Bryce Lynch]

6 minutes ago, Dobian said:

In the real world, castles have sat out sieges for longer than a year.  During that time, they can attack the siege army from the castle walls, draining their numbers.  The undead army will be receiving no reinforcements.  They have no ranged attack so you can pick them off from the safety of the walls.  They can be set on fire.  You don't even need the dragons for that.  Start a fire in the mob and it will quickly spread.  They're dumb, they won't know what to do.  You wouldn't need a year to wipe out most of them, it could be done in weeks or even days.  The dragon is the only reason that army could prevail.  Without it they would be useless in a siege.

Winterfell was filled with at least 100,000 troops and refugees, perhaps far more  Sansa said she didn't have enough food to feed the Dothraki and Unsullied for what she probably did not anticipate to be a lengthy siege.  I doubt they could hold out for a year.

Even if they could, the NK and his army have none of the normal constraints on an army implementing a siege against a walled city or castle.   

And they would get reinforcements.  Every time someone inside the walls died, the NK could raise them and add them to his army.

If the Lannisters or some other normal army were laying siege, Winterfell could probably be held longer than that army could sustain itself.  But, the NK's army is unique.  

[GodsBeloved]

6 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Right, but my point is the North would probably not find the rule of the Queen who brought tens of thousands of troops (and lost most of them in battle) and put her own life on the line to defend Winterfell, the North and the Realm as distasteful as the rule of the incest, bastard usurper Joffrey Lannister and his usurper, incestuous, adulterous, mass murdering king slaying mother who currently sits on the Iron Throne.  

I am really anxious to see how the North feels about Daenerys post battle of Winterfell.  

I don't think they'd find it distasteful, just that it's believable that they could still want their independence. Having her aide in defeating a common enemy shouldn't be cause for them to want to be ruled over.

I fully expect though that they will fall at her feet because she's the shero of the show.

Edited May 2, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[tv-talk]

6 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

And, at least for now, there's no rule that Jon can't abdicate his rights, as Maester Aemon did.

That's Jon's decision not Dany's and the point I was making was that be HER RULES, she should bend the knee.

[DarkRaichu]

8 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

And, at least for now, there's no rule that Jon can't abdicate his rights, as Maester Aemon did.

With how showrunners emphasize fan service, I have little doubt this will be an out they will use to either prevent Jon from IT or cut short his time on IT.

I do not have any confidence on how the ending will be handled TBH.