S14.E13: Lebanon (Episode 300)

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought it was magical object vs a cursed object... But I'm sure I missed something because I only watched it once.

You could be right.  I only watched it once too.  I just figured it was a cursed object since it was found with the other cursed objects in the guys shop.

But cursed or magical they should have a least had a conversation about how these things never go right.

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The other thing that bugs that the show is whitewashing the tragic choices made by saying the boys saved the world without acknowledging they did things that broke it in the first place and they had to atone for their dickups.

That's why I thought it was incredibly selfish of them to reset.  Sure, Sam has a lonely,pathetic life, Dean's probably lonely (other than being wanted we didn't see anything of his life), and Mary is dead, but literally everything else about the world would probably be better because of the mistakes that they wouldn't have made.  Including the mistakes Cas made.

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought it was magical object vs a cursed object... But I'm sure I missed something because I only watched it once.

I think you're right, but I also think the point stands.  Wishes can be tricky businesses.  And, all they knew was that he would get his heart's desire.  that could have been Lisa and Ben.  Or a burger.  They didn't seem to do much research as to how it worked, because Sam said he thought Dean should just think about what he wanted.  Seems like a guess to me.  And a guess that didnt' work.

[Aeryn13]

I think "true heart's desire" should have been a red flag. It's like a wish from a djinn in other stories, that NEVER turns out the way you intended it. 

[Katy M]

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

I think "true heart's desire" should have been a red flag. It's like a wish from a djinn in other stories, that NEVER turns out the way you intended it. 

Excellent point. Dean should have remembered What is and What Should Never Be.  It may have just been a dream, but even still, not exactly what he wanted.

[Aeryn13]

Just now, Katy M said:

Excellent point. Dean should have remembered What is and What Should Never Be.  It may have just been a dream, but even still, not exactly what he wanted.

It's not just on Dean, though. Sam could have equally used some logic before suggesting it. That was a fail on both their parts.

As for resetting being selfish, that didn't bother me so much here because a) I thought it was super-bullshit that everyone just dropped apocalypse plans eons in the making because one dude disappeared in 2003 instead of 2005 and b) I got the feeling the angels would have continued to look into and fix the timeline problem.

[SueB]

Seriouly though, who DIDN'T think "Monkey's Paw!" as soon as the pearl was mentioned.

I wish they showed at least ONE scene of Michael knocking on the door in real time (or when Dean pointed to his head, give us a faint audio of Michael screaming) so we could appreciate the desparation.  

I get the "why" -- needed a decent conceit for the story to work and this was reasonable IMO.  But a little more sense of urgency would have explained the willingness to take a chance. 

[rue721]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Through the course of the story, he realized that he was actually okay with how things turned out and he has a found family that he loves just as much.  Doesn't mean he doesn't love John.  Just means he's at peace with where he is.  So... both of those were true IMO.

I think it would have made sense for him to realize that he's at peace with himself and his life now -- in fact, I think that we have already watched Dean realize that in previous episodes/seasons -- but in the case of this specific episode, I think there was a lack of emotional payoff because I don't think the show actually took Dean from A to B, from yearning for John and his old dreams to finding peace in his present-day self/family/life.

If anything, the episode tried to take Dean from B to A. Over the past five or ten years, it's been clear that Dean's perception of John has been changing quite drastically, and that his perception of how he measures up to John has been changing quite drastically. What's surprising ISN'T that Dean is happy with the life/family that he's made for himself, he's said that before and we've watched him find that happiness and peace basically in real time. What's surprising is that regardless of all those changes, at the top of the hour THIS WEEK, his most heartfelt wish was still for John. That's what the episode needed to explain. We get how Dean made peace with his current life, we saw it. We DON'T get how Dean made peace with John (and John's death) -- and that wish belies that he truly ever did. How and when Dean made peace with John is what we needed to understand in this episode specifically and what the show failed to illustrate or explain.

I think the writers' choice for Dean and John not to have a real/cathartic heart-to-heart was actually a really good one. I would find a heart-to-heart between them hollow because what Dean has had to process for basically the entire length of the show is that John broke his trust. John broke it by disappearing and he broke it by exploiting Dean for all the years before he disappeared and he broke it by just not measuring up to the man Dean thought (hoped) he was and needed him to be. And if Dean actually understands that John CAN'T be there for him (because of his own limitations, not just because of external forces), which Dean does seem to, then any heart-to-heart is going to be a painful charade at best.

I'm not sure what would have shown better that Dean has made peace with John and with the loss of his father (both metaphorically and literally). But I think that's what the episode needed to show, and it didn't.

And like I said, I think the episode would have been better if John had had more of an internal/emotional storyline and come to some kind of realization, too. Even if the episode still needed to end on a reset and John thinking, "it was all a dream" -- if he'd actually grown/changed over the course of the episode, the ephemerality of that growth/change could have had left us with that bittersweet tinge that this show can be so amazing at conveying. But John didn't grow through his journey into his family's 2019 lives, it was just a random and pointless good dream for him. Which I enjoyed watching -- I don't meant to complain complain complain -- but which I think could have had more emotional heft.

Oh and I think that Mary should have been the one to make the wish, not Dean. She's more naive about magic and it would also have made perfect sense for John's return to be what she wishes for most.

Edited February 11, 2019 by rue721

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

It's not just on Dean, though. Sam could have equally used some logic before suggesting it. That was a fail on both their parts.

Oh, definitely.  Dean has already had personal experience that came right into my head.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Oh, definitely.  Dean has already had personal experience that came right into my head.

I don`t think a Djinn-induced hallucination is really comparable to what happened with the pearl, though. So I wouldn`t have made that connection either. However, they both could have thought back to the Wishing Well episode with the suicidal teddy bear. It`s not 100 % the same either but it did show that even a granted wish might not be all its cracked up to be.

Quote

What's surprising is that regardless of all those changes, at the top of the hour THIS WEEK, his most heartfelt wish was still for John. That's what the episode needed to explain. 

I agree with that. IMO there were two options: either John coming back comes about due to something else and then you can keep the convos as it is, Sam gets closure and Dean doesn`t really have much to talk about with John 2003. OR you keep it as Dean`s wish but then you have to emotionally pay off why. In which case, you need more between the characters than that rather shallow non-conversation. Both mixed together don`t work. 

You could maybe flimsily connect it to Dean making a wish to see his family back together in that moment because he still thinks he will ultimately go into the box with Michael. But then this absolutely had to be addressed in dialogue. 

I`m pretty sure Dean`s deepest desire didn`t/doesn`t stay the same for every single day of every single year throughout the show. Yet, the episode worked off the premise that it is: "the family back together". I bet the instances Sam was dead, his deepest desire would have been for Sam to be alive. I bet early Season 13when he thought Mary and Cas were dead his deepest desire would have been for them to be back. And not just desires of his mind but of his heart.

At least give some belated exposition on the side-effects of the Pearl, namely that it picks up on the heart`s desire you held the longest in your life or the earliest you really had or something like that.  

[rue721]

If I had to guess why Dean would have been wishing for John so hard right then, while he thought he was concentrating on Michael, it would be because Dean was unconsciously wishing in his heart-of-hearts that John would swoop in and save the day. Which is kind of ridiculous, but when he was in trouble years and years ago, that's what he wished for, too. Like in Season 3, when he thinks [hopes] that dead!John is calling him from beyond the grave to save him from Hell.

But I think that based on watching the show for a million years, that wasn't really in the episode itself at all. In the end, Dean didn't even tell John that he was in trouble or anything about Michael.

Well, except maybe when Sam and Dean were catching up with John and then John said "I wish I could have seen it," which was just so weird. And out of character for such a domineering, obsessive, problem-solver like John. Like you'd think telling John about all the supernatural problems they've run up against and are still running up against would be like giving a dog a bone, and John would immediately be putting together a murder board and hitting the lore or whatever and trying to take over their missions himself.

But I did find John's characterization off. John was a hunter through and through by the time he died, and that was always his biggest issue with his sons (that he put hunting before their well-being). But when he appears in this episode, he's not even suspicious that this is all a trick or a trap. He doesn't even seem that intrigued as to how they snatched him out of his timeline or what it means that they're futzing around with a magical object and using it to wish people back from the past and/or back from the dead. Like honestly, you'd think he'd be a bit more paranoid and a bit more pissed off by their naivete. But he's not thinking like a hunter at all.

I don't mind that the show went for the warm fuzzies with this episode, I actually liked that in a sense. It's the Big 300th, it should be sentimental. I just don't feel like they were very true to the characters of Dean and John specifically.

And I think there were some writing missteps in how things were plotted out, but to be fair, those missteps also were probably unavoidable given how little filming time they had with JDM. I mean, they weren't going to be able to do any stunt work with him with only two days to film. They needed the teens and Lebanon as filler when John was only going to be on screen for 10 minutes. Etc.

Edited February 11, 2019 by rue721

[Myrelle]

On 2/10/2019 at 11:30 AM, Bergamot said:

I agree with this as well. Actually I kind of wish now that they had just cut out any private heart-to-heart between Dean and John completely. I don't see why John should get to feel better about his relationship with Dean because he again tells him how proud he is of him. (Because yes, John had previously told him that, and I don't see how him repeatedly saying that makes everything okay.) If the show wasn't going to do it well, it perhaps would be better that it not be done at all.

I think that what I needed more than that, more than having John say something to Dean, was to have the SHOW acknowledge, in this episode, that it wasn't just Sam that was really screwed up by what John did. In an episode like this, which was all about John reuniting with his family, it should not have been ignored the way it was. 

It would have been easy enough to do. For example, they could have had  John say to Sam during their talk, "I screwed up a lot with you, didn't I?  With both of you." Or have Sam say to John, "You did some messed-up things. To both of us." (Italicized portions are my additions.) See? Simple! Why would that be asking too much? Or maybe include with the "Then" segment a clip from IMTOD with John telling Dean, "I'm sorry...I put too much on your shoulders. I made you grow up too fast. You took care of Sammy, you took care of me."  Why not?

It's like they went out of their way to avoid the subject of what John's parenting did to Dean -- like they didn't want to touch it with a ten-foot pole. I'm not wanting to interfere in any way with Sam's moment of closure with John here -- let John and Sam have all the time they need. But to completely pass over, as the episode does, that Sam was not the only son that John hurt -- I didn't like it. And again, I'm not talking about what Dean needed, but about what I needed. And it was something I didn't get.

ITA with all you've said here, Bergamot-especially the bolded part and the suggestions for what both characters could have said in Sam and John's conversation and the THEN segment.

On 2/9/2019 at 11:45 PM, PinkChicken said:

It isn't where I expected them to go with it, but its better than nothing, and they really didn't have enough time to do it properly. Fact is this isn't something that would be fixed by punching John in the face or by any number of apologies anyway. ts far too late, so it only matters to me if it matters to Dean that John acknowledge it. I really don't trust them to even approach this topic properly when it comes to Dean & John so i'm almost grateful they didn't really touch it. Absolutely it would be nice, Dean deserves acknowledgement and an apology, but I did like that they both got the 'I'm proud of you's and I"I love you"s (even if the "I'm proud of you" comes from the wrong place and imo John doesn't get to claim responsibility for all of who Dean has become anyway). 

On 2/9/2019 at 7:50 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Even Dean's speech just says that he has accepted that he was screwed up and he has accepted it for so long now, he sees no point in changing it anymore. That is at best emotional pragmatism. It is not closure. 

On 2/9/2019 at 9:55 PM, Lemuria said:

I did like Dean's speech at the end and hopefully we will get a less depressed Dean from here on in.  And I liked the "I have a family" line:  even though I think Dean has forgiven John, I felt a hint of anger at John still there in that line. 

So many good and salient points in so many of the posts regarding Dean here. And I'm so glad for that. Twitter just lacks so greatly in that dept., AFAIC-and it isn't all because of the character count restrictions. 😉

So as to the bolded parts here-I totally expected that this was how they were going to handle Dean's issues in this one and for me it's only better than nothing because the writers on this show have Jensen Ackles to deliver their  lines for them, And while I so agree with the lack of trust in the writing, call me greedy but I'd still like to see JDM back to explore Dean's issues further. And even the Sam stuff was just a redux of Sam's speech in Abandon All Hope, tbh-but as for that, I was just worried that they were going to give JP the scene with John that JA mentioned he'd like to have with him at a con once(over Dean's lost childhood). So bullet dodged there, thankfully. As to that last bolded sentence-THIS is a large part of what I feel Dean took away from this particular encounter with his errant father-that he doesn't truly need or want John's approval any longer because he has become his own man which makes him ready to live his life on his own terms and no other's-and yes, I loved that.

I highlighted Aeryn's entire post here because this is exactly what I saw Dean as having achieved in this one-emotional pragmatism-which has always, always been So. Dean. to me, even from the  time he was a child, and it's largely what's made him so strong and the emotional bulwark of his family and has helped him survive his very dysfunctional upbringing-but to me, it's also the largest part of the tragedy of Dean's younger life, also-which leads me to Lemuria's post...

Dean is trying to let go of his anger-he even said it in his speech with Sam and IMO, he's been trying to let go of it for a very long time, but I would bet that there will be times when that anger would likely resurface if and/or when he sees it in a similar type of dysfucntional parent/child relationship-and hunting doesn't even need to involved for this to happen because there's all kinds of other and more "normal" ways that parents wind up doing something similar to their kids-and in this way we see this show grounded in reality once again and that's why to me Jensen once again made lemonade out of lemons again, just by imbuing Dean with that bit of anger over John's, yes, vapid wish/desire that Dean could or even would have ever opted for a normal, more "peaceful" life with "a family" of his own-especially after the childhood he'd had, but not even only because of that.

That little statement of "I have a family." was the most loaded statement uttered in this episode to me and all because of that bit of anger that was added in by Mr. Ackles in both of those scenes. Real closure over stuff like this is ever elusive for many and sometimes, even in RL, it's never fully or totally achieved-especially if regret from the offending party is withheld, or more so if the offending party is oblivious to even a need for any regret and worst of all if the offending party is someone as loved as John was by Dean but who died far too soon for a more complete closure to have even been attempted.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Myrelle

[Myrelle]

On 2/9/2019 at 9:47 PM, Cambion said:

So, my TMI is to say, IMO, Dean got what he needed.

I meant to add this one in also, but only to say that I'm not really sure that this is completely true, but what I did see as true was Dean realizing that this was probably all that he was ever going to get as far as a more complete closure with his father was concerned; so he again did what he has always done and learned that he's pretty much had to do(and this, sometimes just in order to remain sane), he simply made the very best of the situation again-BUT, perhaps in this case making the best of the situation DID actually involve some real growth for him in that he has now let go of the need/desire for anyone's approval of the life that he's chosen to live and the way that he's chosen to live it-even John's-and this, at a time when John even stated outright and again that he was proud of Dean.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Myrelle

[Bobcatkitten]

I already felt like Dean had closure with John. I know many fans are really upset with him as a father and want it all vetted. But Dean has moved on. He would rather have a flawed father than no father at all. Loss will do that to you. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I already felt like Dean had closure with John. I know many fans are really upset with him as a father and want it all vetted. But Dean has moved on. He would rather have a flawed father than no father at all. Loss will do that to you. 

I think he has moved on from the idea of having closure. Because right after John telling Dean he put too much on him, he...put too much on him again and then he died. And certainly for a couple years after that Dean really wanted closure, that relationship was as un-closured as you could have. But in time he moved on and found peace.

The problem is really that this episode hinged on the idea that Dean specifically had a deep heart`s desire to have John back. Which is downright weird for someone who has moved on. 

The premise for the episode and the pay-off for Dean`s character just don`t go well together.  

[Jonesy]

Excellent episode--John got strong interactions with all his family and brought some closure and left all 4 characters the better for it.  Yes Dean had already had peace with John but his wish was to have his full family back--that's what he got.  No doubt all 4 love each other.  No doubt.  About the show being a tragedy and not about heroes--that's a misreading of the show imo...it started as a tragedy but the boys overcame that to be heroes.   The sadness is there but they overcame it and save others and as Dean said they also got family too.  Loved seeing snarky Zach back.   JDM was great as was the whole Winchester family.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Jakes

[ster1]

My Dabb-induced apathy about the show actually worked in my favor for this episode. I found it underwhelming but since I didn't have any expectations going in, I was okay with that. I didn't hate it, I didn't love it, I probably won't remember much about it by next week.  Typical of how i feel about most episodes these days.                                                                                                                                          I don't really understand why the episode was called "Lebanon" when the town part felt shoehorned in.  I agree that they should have picked and focused on just one of the two storylines. There was a lot that could have been done to lay the foundation of JDM returning without him actually being there. Maybe then John's presence would have had more emotional resonance for me.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

[Casseiopeia]

The cast preparing for the final scene...they really put everything they have into this show. I love them for that.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Casseiopeia

[ILoveReading]

So many great posts anaylizing Dean's state of mind.  Too many to quote. 

I agree if Dean neither needed, or wanted anything from John and made peace with his past and is good with who he is then why would there be a need for Dean's "heart desire" to bring John back.

The only thing that even remotely would make sense is if he wished he could say goodbye because he's going in the box. 

So there was a big disconnect with this episode.  It would have made more sense if it was Sam's wish.

[Bobcatkitten]

Of course Dean wanted to see his Dad again. He thinks he is going to die soon. Moving on from being bitter and mad is different than moving on from wanting a father.

[Lemuria]

21 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It would have made more sense if it was Sam's wish.

In the sense we've been talking about it, it probably would have.  But, boy, would it have started wildfires IMO:  if, for some reason, it was Sam who had to use it to make the "get rid of Michael" wish--maybe Michael's presence in Dean interfered with Dean's being able to use the pearl, for example--and we get the same John scenario, then that would have meant that talking to John again, after all these years and after the whole Sam-John bit in "The Song Remains The Same," was more important to Sam than possibly saving Dean from spending eternity locked in a metal coffin with a ticked-off archangel

And we think SPN fandom is divisive now?  Hah!  

[Casseiopeia]

27 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

So many great posts anaylizing Dean's state of mind.  Too many to quote. 

I agree if Dean neither needed, or wanted anything from John and made peace with his past and is good with who he is then why would there be a need for Dean's "heart desire" to bring John back.

The only thing that even remotely would make sense is if he wished he could say goodbye because he's going in the box. 

So there was a big disconnect with this episode.  It would have made more sense if it was Sam's wish.

This was something that Dean has wanted since he was 4 years old...his whole family together again.

[SueB]

Based on that BTS moment, I’d say Jensen doesn’t agree with comments about Dean’s engagement with John being superficial or unimportant.  As Jensen has said many times, they don’t try to cry.  They try NOT to.  They simply put themselves in the heads of their characters (as they see them) and the emotion comes out.  Watch how gutted Dean is in that final scene, I have a hard time seeing how he would have though John’s visit was wasted/useless/superficial/stupid/etc...   I think Jensen felt John’s visit was a pretty damn big deal to Dean.  

[ILoveReading]

Jensen's love of JDM is obvious.  I think he'd enjoy working with him regardless of the material.   He would never say a bad word about him or his time on the show. 

As for what Dean wants/needs regarding his dad, its hard to say 100% without talking to Jensen.  But the problem with interviews is that he's not going to bad mouth the show*.  It's rare he criticizes it, but we have seen statements and a few things over the years that have frustrated him with regards to the writing.

I'm basing my feelings that he might have been a little disappointed**, mostly due to the lack of his joining in on the 300th ep lead up.  He made one tweet while everyone made multiple tweets.   Also on how he's talked about this situation at cons.  He mentioned more than once he'd like to film a scene with Dean confronting John about "how dare you steal my childhood."  So if this is his predominant opinion, there must be a part of him that thinks Dean does want and need it. 

*I'm am not saying, in any way shape or form that if Jensen did an interview and he said he thinks Dean got what he needed that he would just be saying that for the camera and didn't mean it.   I'm just stating that as a general fact.

**Also being a little disappointed doesn't mean he didn't' find the interaction Dean and John got wasn't meaningful in some way. 

Even if the interaction wasn't meaningless for Dean, it was for me personally as a viewer.  Because why brother to bring up Dean's anger and treatment of Dean in the two previous episodes if they ignore it when John was actually there to address it.  They could have even have had Sam bring it up.  It felt like it was building to something and then it was left out.  I felt like there was no new ground covered so the interaction for me felt pointless. 

Same as to why the pearl would pick that wish for Dean, if Dean really believed he needed or wanted nothing from John.  Jensen himself said he was confused as to why Amara would think he needed Mary.  I'm sure there are great explanations, the show just needed to take time to explore them.

Edited February 11, 2019 by ILoveReading

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, Katy M said:

That's why I thought it was incredibly selfish of them to reset.  Sure, Sam has a lonely,pathetic life, Dean's probably lonely (other than being wanted we didn't see anything of his life), and Mary is dead, but literally everything else about the world would probably be better because of the mistakes that they wouldn't have made.  Including the mistakes Cas made.

I'm pretty sure the angels hadn't given up and were working on something else. Maybe they had to wait for another replacement to come of age or whatever they were going to do, but my impression was that it was upcoming, well into planning, and Zachariah didn't want any temporal time fuzzies (or however he described it) messing up their big plans. Look how easily Castiel was ready to kill the humans who weren't really even doing anything... This to me said that the angels were ready to go "humans, ehn disposable, we have a bigger purpose." I think eventually they would've found a way to mess things up, and it might have turned out even worse... as it apparently did in the alternate universe apocalypse world.

As for Sam and Dean considering that before undoing everything, I think they likely got enough vibes from the Zachariah and Castiel kill party about to happen that the alternate timeline was likely headed nowhere good with a smug Zach and an ""I'm just following orders" and powerful Castiel trying to protect their "plans." I got entirely bad news vibes anyway.

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

As for resetting being selfish, that didn't bother me so much here because a) I thought it was super-bullshit that everyone just dropped apocalypse plans eons in the making because one dude disappeared in 2003 instead of 2005 and b) I got the feeling the angels would have continued to look into and fix the timeline problem.

Yes, pretty much this. As I said above, though, I got that impression from what Zach and alternate Castiel were doing that they were already on their way to having / creating a fix or alternate way to accomplish their goal. They seemed mightily worried and pissed about a little "temporal anomaly" (TM Star Trek-verse), enough to send a high up fixer like Zachariah, and to potentially smite a bunch of people just to get their answers. For me, that would more indicate that they were wanting to protect something or make sure something didn't get messed up by the temporal anomaly. If they were just hanging around, wringing their hands, I don't think they would have cared much about a little anomaly.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The problem is really that this episode hinged on the idea that Dean specifically had a deep heart`s desire to have John back. Which is downright weird for someone who has moved on.

I agree with those above who have said that Dean's real desire was for him to have his family all together for once - I was coming to post the same thing - and I can imagine he especially might have wanted it / missed it now that he's likely going to get locked in the box as far as he's concerned. And once he saw John, that's exactly what Dean said that he wanted: all of them together for once.

But I also agree with whoever it was above who said that now that Dean had had that - the one thing he had always wanted and never had - that Dean also now was at peace with the fact that he also had a family now, and he was happy with that family also, even if it wasn't that one he'd always dreamed about.

2 hours ago, Jakes said:

Excellent episode--John got strong interactions with all his family and brought some closure and left all 4 characters the better for it.  Yes Dean had already had peace with John but his wish was to have his full family back--that's what he got.

Agreed. That's what he had wanted for a long time.

I think it was also nice that Dean realized - and I think John saying that he wanted a "family" for Dean brought this into focus even more for Dean - that he wasn't just happy with the weird little family he had, but that - his "heart's desire" aside - he wouldn't want to trade it back now. He got his "heart's desire" for a moment, and even though he loved it and loved having it, I think Dean realized that, as he is now, he wouldn't want instead of what he has.

So in that way, in my opinion, I do think Dean got something out of this episode. Quite a bit actually. Sure it's a bit cliched with the old "unanswered prayers" and "ships that don't come in" thing, but some cliches are true for a reason, and I think this is one people still sometimes feel better about if they can actually see or know for sure somehow that it's true. Like seeing that guy or girl you had a crush on back in high school at the class reunion and realizing wow, he/she was actually a dick/bitch, what the hell was I thinking? Sure you might've been entirely happy with your life and what you had now, but seeing the evidence could then dispell any lingering rose-colored glasses "what ifs" might have been in your memories.

I'm not saying that Dean didn't like having John there and having everyone altogether or that if he could have, he wouldn't have chosen for John to stay, but I think now that he had it - the family all together - it was just a little more evidence, and was maybe no longer that golden, unreachable dream to which everything else might seem a little less than in comparison. Dean could truly let go of that unfulfilled want and be sure of his choice of family now.

Edited February 11, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Jensen's love of JDM is obvious.  I think he'd enjoy working with him regardless of the material.   He would never say a bad word about him or his time on the show. 

As for what Dean wants/needs regarding his dad, its hard to say 100% without talking to Jensen.  But the problem with interviews is that he's not going to bad mouth the show*.  It's rare he criticizes it, but we have seen statements and a few things over the years that have frustrated him with regards to the writing.

I'm basing my feelings that he might have been a little disappointed**, mostly due to the lack of his joining in on the 300th ep lead up.  He made one tweet while everyone made multiple tweets.   Also on how he's talked about this situation at cons.  He mentioned more than once he'd like to film a scene with Dean confronting John about "how dare you steal my childhood."  So if this is his predominant opinion, there must be a part of him that thinks Dean does want and need it. 

*I'm am not saying, in any way shape or form that if Jensen did an interview and he said he thinks Dean got what he needed that he would just be saying that for the camera and didn't mean it.   I'm just stating that as a general fact.

**Also being a little disappointed doesn't mean he didn't' find the interaction Dean and John got wasn't meaningful in some way. 

I agree. The experience of the actor filming isn't necessarily sonething that translates to the viewer. Overall, I think John being back in terms of his interaction with Dean was a waste of time. Those scenes didn't give me anything I wanted or needed. 

And honestly, that's what's important for my enjoyment factor, not so much what messed up characters may or may not find good enough.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And honestly, that's what's important for my enjoyment factor, not so much what messed up characters may or may not find good enough.

Dean's been conditioned his whole life to accept table scraps when it comes to anyone acknowledging his trauma.  He's used to sucking it up and being the bigger person and burying it with an, "we're good." 

It's hard to see it as character growth when it really came off as more of the same.

Edited February 11, 2019 by ILoveReading

[SueB]

53 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I agree. The experience of the actor filming isn't necessarily sonething that translates to the viewer. Overall, I think John being back in terms of his interaction with Dean was a waste of time. Those scenes didn't give me anything I wanted or needed. 

And honestly, that's what's important for my enjoyment factor, not so much what messed up characters may or may not find good enough.

I bought everything Jensen was selling. Of course I think he’s a great actor and always conveys what he means to.  He sold me on a heart-felt, gut wrenching experience.

 I also agree with @AwesomO4000 — Dean’s need for his family, having had this experience, is somewhat different now.  He can lay some old desires to rest.   He got effusive praise from Dad, he personally reunited Mom &Dad for a short time, and The Winchesters got to have a special moment together.  Most don’t get that kind of closure.  I suspect Dean will ultimately feel blessed by it.  

Edited February 11, 2019 by SueB

[rue721]

4 hours ago, Myrelle said:

THIS is a large part of what I feel Dean took away from this particular encounter with his errant father-that he doesn't truly need or want John's approval any longer because he has become his own man which makes him ready to live his life on his own terms and no other's-and yes, I loved that.

I never thought that Dean struggled for John's approval. The whole time John was alive, Dean did whatever John wanted, so John approved of him. Or at least, approved of him as much as a hardass like John was going to approve of anyone. Sam was the black sheep in the family; struggling for John's approval was Sam's storyline.

Dean's storyline was about spending a lifetime earning John's approval and then thinking maybe he should have questioned him and stood up to him after all. He'd trusted John and then he started worrying that he'd been wrong to do so. Started feeling betrayed, manipulated, all that. And frankly, I do think that John betrayed his trust, and that John (inadvertently or not) played Dean like a fiddle.

Sam and John's conflict was about pride/shame, so it meant something for John to tell Sam he was proud of him. Dean and John's conflict was about trust/betrayal. So John giving Dean his approval is kind of irrelevant. Like sure, thanks. Now what, gonna tell him to save/murder his brother again? LOL.

What I think would have made more sense is if Dean wished for his dad because he's afraid and when he's afraid, in his heart of hearts he wants his dad to come rescue him. A little dorky, but understandable given their history. And FINALLY, John actually showed up when Dean was in trouble, too! Dean's faith in him was finally justified, his call was finally answered. This is the first time we've actually seen that, and that's after Dean calling for help HOW many times over the years? Except...once John's there, the show never again addresses why Dean's afraid or why he used the pearl in the first place. It goes right to family dinner and the threat evaporates.

See, that's where I think the episode really went astray. I don't think the individual scenes were bad, some were really touching. But they didn't hang together right. Maybe there were a lot of rewrites and the writers kind of lost track of what was still in the episode and what had been cut and what it would look like as a whole at the end, I dunno.

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Overall, I think John being back in terms of his interaction with Dean was a waste of time. Those scenes didn't give me anything I wanted or needed. 

Same for me. I didn't hate the episode, but it was a missed opportunity for me.

Here's the thing. Of course Dean would want to see his father again if he could. Of course it would be a big deal to him, a dream come true. Of course he loves his father with all his heart, in spite of their problems. Of course he would be absolutely gutted to lose him again after getting to miraculously spend a short time with him. Of course! To say that criticizing the writing in this episode is the same as claiming that these statements are not true, is just creating a straw man argument to dispute against.

Here are three of the main problems that have been discussed in regard to John and Dean in this episode.

First, while the issues between John and Sam were acknowledged in the episode, the ones that existed between John and Dean were not. I'm not even talking about John acknowledging them to Dean, or resolving them somehow -- I'm talking about them being acknowledged by the show, within this episode. As Aeryn13 pointed out previously, if you weren't familiar with the show's past, you would not even know these issues existed. And I did not like that the writers did this. (Please note --again -- that I am not saying that Dean would not be overjoyed to see his father, no matter what, and devastated to lose him again.)

Second, yes, we all agree how much it would mean to Dean to see his father again. But if he believed he might be able take care of Michael by wishing on the magic pearl, why would he wish instead to bring back his father? If Michael then escaped, he would use Dean to destroy the entire world, including Sam, Cas, Jack, his mother --and oh by the way, if he was there too, HIS FATHER. Why was his heart's desire not to ensure the safety of everyone he loved? You can guess at an answer, like maybe Dean did not believe the pearl would work, and wanted to see his father once more before the end, but there is no answer provided within the episode itself.

Third, the quality of the one private conversation between John and Dean was superficial. Again, this is not the same as saying that the relationship between John and Dean is unimportant or superficial or lacking in significance, or any other straw man. But the man came back from the dead, and what did he say to his older son? That he was very proud of him. Nice to hear, but John had already told Dean this before. That he had hoped that the fight would end and that eventually Dean would have a peaceful normal life. Again, nice to hear, but Dean had already heard John express this before, and we saw how he responded to John's words. So yes, that was a shallow conversation in my opinion, and I found it disappointing.

The dishwashing scene was interesting, and I liked hearing that Dean had let go of his anger and was good with who he is. The thing is, though, this was not a revelation that Dean achieved only upon seeing his father again. Dean made it clear that these were conclusions he had already come to previously. "I used to think that too", he said. (And we also know that he had already decided to "let it go" because that is exactly what he tells Sasha he has done, back in "Nightmare Logic.") And again, this does not mean that Dean didn't love his father and wasn't overjoyed to see him again, and that it didn't hurt terribly to lose him again. It does mean that Dean did not achieve any deeper understanding or catharsis about John by seeing him in this episode. He was already there.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Bergamot

[catrox14]

10 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think "true heart's desire" should have been a red flag. It's like a wish from a djinn in other stories, that NEVER turns out the way you intended it. 

I've been thinking more and more and this is a really wild left turn here, but what if the Pearl picked up on Michael's wish to find Chuck and the Pearl couldn't discern the difference so it found John instead of Chuck?

I mean to me that would be a good way to explain why Dean's wish wasn't to be rid of Michael, and it would show that Michael is still affecting Dean if not overtly. 

[Myrelle]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

So many great posts anaylizing Dean's state of mind.  Too many to quote. 

I agree if Dean neither needed, or wanted anything from John and made peace with his past and is good with who he is then why would there be a need for Dean's "heart desire" to bring John back.

The only thing that even remotely would make sense is if he wished he could say goodbye because he's going in the box. 

So there was a big disconnect with this episode.  It would have made more sense if it was Sam's wish.

I think that having his family together was Dean's heart's desire and yes, IMO his reasoning was for the bolded part here, but the only reason that I can see for the John that we got being the one that was given to us(at least from a storyboard sense) was because this was the John who he remembered most fondly as an adult-the John whom he'd hunted with when Sam left them and possibly the father and man who he thought knew him better than anyone else possibly could or did.

But as is usual with wishes in the SPNverse this wish fulfillment came with many unforeseen consequences-not the least being that with this John, Dean came face to face with a father who'd never really seen who he was at his core at all; in fact, he never saw into Dean very well at all if he felt that Dean could someday go back to a normal or "peaceful" life. And I really do believe that even with the knowledge that John was also an obsessed bastard who was never there for him or Sam, I think he still held to the belief and thought that John "understood" and got Dean's love of the hunting life as being more of a calling for Dean than just a job or something he would do until they'd gotten their revenge for Mary.

So again I say that the little bit of anger we saw in him in his two scenes pertaining to John and how the brothers had turned out without him in their lives after that point when John had first said that he was "so proud" of Dean for always being the one to look after the family(and right before, yes, he then also and straight away laid the worst possible task imaginable on Dean)-these were the moments when Dean decided that he no longer cared what John(or anyone, for that matter) thought of him as long as he was okay with himself, but that he could also still love his father as much as he, on some level, always had-flaws and all and even when he'd hated him for being so hard on him in that very militaristic manner that John was so fond of using as he'd raised him(them)-a parenting style that often involved the holding back of "approval" from BOTH of his boys, btw and IMO-just in different ways and this, mainly because they were very different individuals.

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

I never thought that Dean struggled for John's approval. The whole time John was alive, Dean did whatever John wanted, so John approved of him. Or at least, approved of him as much as a hardass like John was going to approve of anyone. Sam was the black sheep in the family; struggling for John's approval was Sam's storyline.

Dean's storyline was about spending a lifetime earning John's approval and then thinking maybe he should have questioned him and stood up to him after all. He'd trusted John and then he started worrying that he'd been wrong to do so. Started feeling betrayed, manipulated, all that. And frankly, I do think that John betrayed his trust, and that John (inadvertently or not) played Dean like a fiddle.

Sam and John's conflict was about pride/shame, so it meant something for John to tell Sam he was proud of him. Dean and John's conflict was about trust/betrayal. So John giving Dean his approval is kind of irrelevant. Like sure, thanks. Now what, gonna tell him to save/murder his brother again?

Dean gave everything of himself-everything he ever had(sound familiar?) and still, to Dean(and maybe even in fact), it never seemed like it was enough for John. We saw so many examples of this in the early seasons-Something Wicked and Dead Man's Blood being the two that come most readily to mind-and this is the kind of stuff concerning his father that Dean has been endeavoring to let go of(and all by himself, truth be told) for years now, so from where I sit, Sam and John's conflict may have been about pride and shame and yes, lack of approval for apparently being the black sheep of the family, Dean and John's conflict was indeed about trust and betrayal and lack of approval for never doing enough or never doing things well enough in John's eyes.

And while as adults or near adults, Sam and John often fought and butted heads over Sam's issues, Dean had the added "duty" handed to him of trying to keep the family together, too-and we all know what happened to Dean and Dean's issues as a result of that-both basically just "disappeared" into the deepest recesses of Dean's psyche all in order to keep the peace within the family.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Myrelle

[rue721]

Yo I am so loopy because I am STILL AT WORK. Hour 14 over here. But turned in my second project of the day so I am ready to peace. As I head out the door, though.

I dedicate this song to John of '03:

Someday when my life has passed me by
I'll lay around and wonder why you were always there for me
One way, in the eyes of a passer by
I'll look around for another try and fade away

Edited February 12, 2019 by rue721

[Aeryn13]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

I bought everything Jensen was selling. Of course I think he’s a great actor and always conveys what he means to.  He sold me on a heart-felt, gut wrenching experience.

 I also agree with @AwesomO4000 — Dean’s need for his family, having had this experience, is somewhat different now.  He can lay some old desires to rest.   He got effusive praise from Dad, he personally reunited Mom &Dad for a short time, and The Winchesters got to have a special moment together.  Most don’t get that kind of closure.  I suspect Dean will ultimately feel blessed by it.  

I think you know I wasn't criticizing Jensen's performance. But he didn't write the scene. So if I found the content and dialogue boring and superficial, it's hardly his fault. 

However him enjoying working with JDM is an experience of the actor filming. Doesn't me that this makes me emotional watching, just because.

@Bergamot,  I 100 % agree on the strawman arguments. Co-signung your post. From just watching this episode, you'd think John had the perfect relationship with Dean and never screwed up anywhere with him. It was pretty ridiculous.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Aeryn13

[tessathereaper]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Jensen's love of JDM is obvious.  I think he'd enjoy working with him regardless of the material.   He would never say a bad word about him or his time on the show. 

As for what Dean wants/needs regarding his dad, its hard to say 100% without talking to Jensen.  But the problem with interviews is that he's not going to bad mouth the show*.  It's rare he criticizes it, but we have seen statements and a few things over the years that have frustrated him with regards to the writing.

I'm basing my feelings that he might have been a little disappointed**, mostly due to the lack of his joining in on the 300th ep lead up.  He made one tweet while everyone made multiple tweets.   Also on how he's talked about this situation at cons.  He mentioned more than once he'd like to film a scene with Dean confronting John about "how dare you steal my childhood."  So if this is his predominant opinion, there must be a part of him that thinks Dean does want and need it. 

*I'm am not saying, in any way shape or form that if Jensen did an interview and he said he thinks Dean got what he needed that he would just be saying that for the camera and didn't mean it.   I'm just stating that as a general fact.

**Also being a little disappointed doesn't mean he didn't' find the interaction Dean and John got wasn't meaningful in some way. 

Even if the interaction wasn't meaningless for Dean, it was for me personally as a viewer.  Because why brother to bring up Dean's anger and treatment of Dean in the two previous episodes if they ignore it when John was actually there to address it.  They could have even have had Sam bring it up.  It felt like it was building to something and then it was left out.  I felt like there was no new ground covered so the interaction for me felt pointless. 

Same as to why the pearl would pick that wish for Dean, if Dean really believed he needed or wanted nothing from John.  Jensen himself said he was confused as to why Amara would think he needed Mary.  I'm sure there are great explanations, the show just needed to take time to explore them.

I agree.  In fact I just read that quote from Jensen again on Tumblr, where he talked about wanting to have that conversation about Dean's stolen childhood and everything it had done to him.  This was the only chance to have it and it wasn't there so it's never happening.  And I do understand that within the confines of the story they wrote, it couldn't happen, time was too short and the writers don't give a damn so that's how wrote it.  And the fact is, we don't need the seasons after JDM left to get "Dean's stolen childhood" that was from the time when John was STILL there - that's from Something Wicked, that's Dead Man's Blood, Salvation and Devil's Trap, that's from In My Time of Dying.  That's from all sorts of little implications and acting bits in other episodes. 

We were either given evidence of or strongly implied.  I remember in fandom discussions back then we were talking about Dean's parentification during Season 1 first airing, so in that sense, the idea of John having been abusive/neglectful was there in Season 1, it's just if the actor had stayed obviously they probably would have been persuaded to not add in the details which would remind everyone of what a terrible job John did as a father, it would have just been sort of vague.  Not that it wouldn't be the case, but we wouldn't have the actual stories of "oh that time Dad left Dean in Juvie because Dean got caught stealing food so they could eat" "or that time Dean cooked and didn't get it quite right so John yelled at him and threw it out"  but the guy who left his 9 year old alone for a weekend in a motel,  with full responsibility for the 5 year and shoot to kill orders and clearly already did this on a regular basis(and which would quite clearly increase as the children got older) and then only left that traumatized child with his anger and disappointment was already an abusive parent.  He was already stealing Dean's childhood.  That doesn't come from later seasons, that's right there in Season 1.

I think the best we can say Dean got from this is the evidence that he doesn't really need or want John's approval anymore, Dean didn't actually always have John's approval, we know that, we've been told and shown that in the story.  Sam just saw him that way, in season 1, because of Dean trying to be peacemaker to keep his family together, unfortunately, instead of appreciating it, what usually happens is BOTH sides think the peacemaker is taking the other's side and it makes both of them mad at the peacemaker. 

So most likely Dean was not getting John's approval, despite turning himself inside out and upside down trying to do what John wanted.  John took out his frustrations on Dean - we saw this in Salvation(or was it Dead Man's Blood? Dead Man's Blood I think) - John has a disagreement with Sam, Dean breaks it up, John immediately for no apparent reasons decides to insult Dean's caretaking of Baby and tell him "I wouldn't have given it to you if I'd known you'd ruin it".  That's a control tactic often used by addictive/narcisstic/etc parents - they remind them they are incapable of doing anything good on their own and that anything good they have comes from the parent, it's very damaging.  It's a way of making themselves feel powerful, in control. 

I think it's safe to say that something Dean got a lot during his growing up years - John is frustrated about something be it a hunt or Sam or life in general.  I dare say that "meal" story is sort of an example of it - it wasn't right, it wasn't good enough(or at least so Dean would think) so John threw it out, because Dean couldn't do it "right". Who knows what the real problem was - maybe it reminded him of Mary as Dean posited all these years later, maybe something had gone wrong on a hunt, maybe John had argued with Sam, doesn't really matter.  The point is he took out whatever it was on Dean.

Given that what we saw of the family dynamics in these episodes were meant to be a sort of quick version of their general family dynamic(and in fact is almost allegorical in IMTOD, the scene where Sam and John are fighting and Dean can't make himself heard, because he's between life and death, until he finally gets so frustrated he's able to "Obi Wan" the glass. Dean is invisible to both Sam and John, they don't really see HIM - in life as in near death).

What we saw in this episode was an example, from 2003, that John never did really learn to see who Dean really was - he may be "proud" of him, but what does he really know?  Whatever they could sort of tell him, leaving out lots of details, in a few hours?  He still doesn't have anything to say to Dean beyond the same generic thing he said to him in 2006, wanting Dean to have a family or a home.  He literally knows nothing about Dean's own hopes and dreams or desires and wants.  The best he can want for Dean is a "nicer" suburban version of what Dean was already doing.  In a way it's sad I guess, he knows nothing of the really amazing intelligent strong man Dean is and has been for a long time and was already deeply into becoming even in 2005.

Good for Dean having accepted what he has but that doesn't mean everything he's been through and John's very large role in it shouldn't have been acknowledged instead of ignored within the show itself.   If not from Dean then it should have come from Sam - if Dean could share his "Mary time" with Sam's problems in Season 12, then frankly Sam should have said something about what John did to Dean in his conversation with John, esp when coupled with what Dean said about John sending him away when he was mad at him to Sam last week.

[tessathereaper]

Oh a thought I forgot to mention regarding Dean and Sam's conversation about Dean "being good with who he is", etc.  I think maybe Dean is trying to get Sam to let him go.  He knows, cause it's not like they tried to hide it, that Sam and Cas think he's reaching his decision out of desperation, out of self-destructiveness, etc. 

I think Dean part of the reason said what he did because he's trying to make Sam realize he can't use those excuses to keep Dean out of the box, that Dean is doing it because it's what needs to be done, not because he's "damaged goods" and needs to be saved from himself.

[denise42]

I really did enjoy this episode don't get me wrong, but i do think it was a waste of a John story line they could have got their heads together with john to discuss how to get Michael out of Deans head. Or a action packed one.  It just seemed to be John saying sorry to every one. I was expecting more.  What does every one think.

[PAForrest]

6 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

What we saw in this episode was an example, from 2003, that John never did really learn to see who Dean really was - he may be "proud" of him, but what does he really know?  Whatever they could sort of tell him, leaving out lots of details, in a few hours?  He still doesn't have anything to say to Dean beyond the same generic thing he said to him in 2006, wanting Dean to have a family or a home.  He literally knows nothing about Dean's own hopes and dreams or desires and wants.  The best he can want for Dean is a "nicer" suburban version of what Dean was already doing.  In a way it's sad I guess, he knows nothing of the really amazing intelligent strong man Dean is and has been for a long time and was already deeply into becoming even in 2005.

Good for Dean having accepted what he has but that doesn't mean everything he's been through and John's very large role in it shouldn't have been acknowledged instead of ignored within the show itself.   If not from Dean then it should have come from Sam - if Dean could share his "Mary time" with Sam's problems in Season 12, then frankly Sam should have said something about what John did to Dean in his conversation with John, esp when coupled with what Dean said about John sending him away when he was mad at him to Sam last week.

I'm late to the game after an out of town trip from hell, come back to see the site has changed and, per usual, not for the better  - like what's up with not being able to tell what you've favorited after you've favorited it? - and pretty much everything I wanted to say about the episode has been said. So I'll start here because it speaks to my constant frustration with the show and some fans who always say, "but Dean doesn't need closure, doesn't need to have a conversation with <insert guest star's name here>, doesn't need a story line, doesn't need to do anything, doesn't even need to be there ... yada, yada, yada"  I cry foul, as was much of John's practically blink and you miss it appearance in this episode.

So, yes, how about for once they do with Sam what they often do with Dean - make Sammy boy use some of his precious one-on-one time to speak up for Dean or say something, anything, nice about him, exactly like they did with the one and only meaningful one-sided conversation Dean had with Mary that had not a single damn thing to do with him and was only about Sam? It never ever happens that way, and that's crap, especially in this episode where Dean got nothing from bringing John back, and really could have left for the groceries saying, "hey, I brought dad back for you and she who was once my mother but isn't anymore, so have fun, call me when he's gone!"

Yes, I'm glad that Dean likes who he is - in this one episode. I mean, he should, because he's awesome. But we all know that won't last, that point will be utterly forgotten when the next writer wants to make Dean self-loathing again for some plot device he/she needs for said script du jour , and it will be like Dean said nothing here at all.

Mostly what I got out of John in this script was the neon-blinking BTS reality that they could either only afford JDM for a day and a half of filming, or that's all he could or would give them - so, IMO, why the hell bother? Dabb probably should have stuck to the original point of the episode - whatever that was, because I don't know what that was since the episode was just a jumbled mish-mash of attempts to wring emotion out of fans who love that kind of thing without any real semblance of plot.

The only other eye-opener is that death is a bitch and really ages a person. Damn. I mean, come on, JDM's appearance from 13-14 years ago to now is so strikingly different - even though he's still a gorgeous dude, don't get me wrong - that it just felt super weird Dabb couldn't come up with a different way to bring him in or even some passing one-liner to explain the obvious age difference. They could almost get away with it where Sam Smith is concerned, she doesn't appear to have changed that much, but not everyone, not JDM.

The scene with a very constipated Castiel and Zachariah, whose only reason for a return was quite literally so Dabb could steal yet another of Dean's iconic moments and repurpose it for Sam, AGAIN, was another huge source of frustration. Foremost, since Dean wasn't allowed a real role in that scene either, he should have stayed away - he wasn't needed at all. But besides that nitpick, this scene made zero sense. Wouldn't Zach and constipated!Cas still know that the Winchesters were the vessels? For that reason alone, why would they be trying to kill them? Then, of course, there's the obvious - couldn't they tell Mikey boy was locked up inside Dean? Therefore Zach should have been even more interested in keeping Dean alive. I love Kurt Fuller, always enjoyed Zach, but he didn't make sense in this episode. Dabb should have come up with a better way to bring him back - one that was a tad bit more logical.

Honestly I thought the episode started out cute enough, even though the teens were annoying, as teens almost always are, with the collection from hell and all that fun. Might have been an innocuous enough "day in the life of" episode if JDM hadn't come available for a whole day.

Don't really know what I was supposed to get out of the last scene, because if John remembered everything at that point, then everything he does, especially to Dean, from then on is even more crappy than it already was. But the biggest nit was Sam destroying the pearl. No, no, no, sorry, I realize that from the second John came back it was all about Sam and Mary for Dabb, and Dean was just there taking up space in the background. But narratively, if Dean made the wish, then Dean had to unmake it. Period. Dabb should have at least given Dean that. It just felt like Dabb didn't want Dean to have any role after John's return other than to be there, and narrative be damned. Dumb.

[ILoveReading]

8 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

I agree.  In fact I just read that quote from Jensen again on Tumblr, where he talked about wanting to have that conversation about Dean's stolen childhood and everything it had done to him.  This was the only chance to have it and it wasn't there so it's never happening.  And I do understand that within the confines of the story they wrote, it couldn't happen, time was too short and the writers don't give a damn so that's how wrote it.  And the fact is, we don't need the seasons after JDM left to get "Dean's stolen childhood" that was from the time when John was STILL there - that's from Something Wicked, that's Dead Man's Blood, Salvation and Devil's Trap, that's from In My Time of Dying.  That's from all sorts of little implications and acting bits in other episodes. 

We were either given evidence of or strongly implied.  I remember in fandom discussions back then we were talking about Dean's parentification during Season 1 first airing, so in that sense, the idea of John having been abusive/neglectful was there in Season 1, it's just if the actor had stayed obviously they probably would have been persuaded to not add in the details which would remind everyone of what a terrible job John did as a father, it would have just been sort of vague.  Not that it wouldn't be the case, but we wouldn't have the actual stories of "oh that time Dad left Dean in Juvie because Dean got caught stealing food so they could eat" "or that time Dean cooked and didn't get it quite right so John yelled at him and threw it out"  but the guy who left his 9 year old alone for a weekend in a motel,  with full responsibility for the 5 year and shoot to kill orders and clearly already did this on a regular basis(and which would quite clearly increase as the children got older) and then only left that traumatized child with his anger and disappointment was already an abusive parent.  He was already stealing Dean's childhood.  That doesn't come from later seasons, that's right there in Season 1.

I think the best we can say Dean got from this is the evidence that he doesn't really need or want John's approval anymore, Dean didn't actually always have John's approval, we know that, we've been told and shown that in the story.  Sam just saw him that way, in season 1, because of Dean trying to be peacemaker to keep his family together, unfortunately, instead of appreciating it, what usually happens is BOTH sides think the peacemaker is taking the other's side and it makes both of them mad at the peacemaker. 

So most likely Dean was not getting John's approval, despite turning himself inside out and upside down trying to do what John wanted.  John took out his frustrations on Dean - we saw this in Salvation(or was it Dead Man's Blood? Dead Man's Blood I think) - John has a disagreement with Sam, Dean breaks it up, John immediately for no apparent reasons decides to insult Dean's caretaking of Baby and tell him "I wouldn't have given it to you if I'd known you'd ruin it".  That's a control tactic often used by addictive/narcisstic/etc parents - they remind them they are incapable of doing anything good on their own and that anything good they have comes from the parent, it's very damaging.  It's a way of making themselves feel powerful, in control. 

I think it's safe to say that something Dean got a lot during his growing up years - John is frustrated about something be it a hunt or Sam or life in general.  I dare say that "meal" story is sort of an example of it - it wasn't right, it wasn't good enough(or at least so Dean would think) so John threw it out, because Dean couldn't do it "right". Who knows what the real problem was - maybe it reminded him of Mary as Dean posited all these years later, maybe something had gone wrong on a hunt, maybe John had argued with Sam, doesn't really matter.  The point is he took out whatever it was on Dean.

Given that what we saw of the family dynamics in these episodes were meant to be a sort of quick version of their general family dynamic(and in fact is almost allegorical in IMTOD, the scene where Sam and John are fighting and Dean can't make himself heard, because he's between life and death, until he finally gets so frustrated he's able to "Obi Wan" the glass. Dean is invisible to both Sam and John, they don't really see HIM - in life as in near death).

What we saw in this episode was an example, from 2003, that John never did really learn to see who Dean really was - he may be "proud" of him, but what does he really know?  Whatever they could sort of tell him, leaving out lots of details, in a few hours?  He still doesn't have anything to say to Dean beyond the same generic thing he said to him in 2006, wanting Dean to have a family or a home.  He literally knows nothing about Dean's own hopes and dreams or desires and wants.  The best he can want for Dean is a "nicer" suburban version of what Dean was already doing.  In a way it's sad I guess, he knows nothing of the really amazing intelligent strong man Dean is and has been for a long time and was already deeply into becoming even in 2005.

Good for Dean having accepted what he has but that doesn't mean everything he's been through and John's very large role in it shouldn't have been acknowledged instead of ignored within the show itself.   If not from Dean then it should have come from Sam - if Dean could share his "Mary time" with Sam's problems in Season 12, then frankly Sam should have said something about what John did to Dean in his conversation with John, esp when coupled with what Dean said about John sending him away when he was mad at him to Sam last week.

Excellent post. 

I still think this is a huge problem.  Nobody actually sees Dean, even to this day.  They see the person they need him to be in any given situation, and if he's not performing accordingly its usually, knock some sense in him, play the little brother card (Prophet and Loss), or lecture him about how he should respond to a situation.

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

I'm late to the game after an out of town trip from hell,

Sorry your trip didn't go so well

[SueB]

15 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Here's the thing. Of course Dean would want to see his father again if he could. Of course it would be a big deal to him, a dream come true. Of course he loves his father with all his heart, in spite of their problems. Of course he would be absolutely gutted to lose him again after getting to miraculously spend a short time with him. Of course! To say that criticizing the writing in this episode is the same as claiming that these statements are not true, is just creating a straw man argument to dispute against.

You say "of course!" as if everyone agrees and that the criticism provided already takes these statements as truths.  All I see is criticism and suggestions the episode was a waste.  Not "the episode was a good experience for Dean BUT".  Suggesting that the events of 14.13 had a positive effect on Dean is not a 'strawman argument', it's a different opinion than others expressed. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by SueB

[SueB]

I've seen this sign more than once recently on the show.  I think the prop department has come up with their own logo for the Family Business Beer Company and now it hangs in the Lebanon liquor store:

nice shoutout.

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, SueB said:

Suggesting that the events of 14.13 had a positive effect on Dean is not a 'strawman argument', it's a different opinion than others expressed.  

It seems like there are two different conversations here. It seemed you were arguing that those who disagree it was a good experience for Dean aren't really getting it because you used Jensen enjoying JDMs return to say Jensen therefore Dean is okay with it. Others mentioned what Jensen has said in the recent past about what he thinks Dean wanted from John, which is not what happened in the episode hence saying it wasn't good for Dean.

At this point, I think Dabb altered the story for JDM to get him back and IMO Dabb focused solely on what JDM wanted for John which is for John to not be a bad dad to the boys or at least to not have damaged them like he did.

But that isn't what happened in the show all these years and only one character didn't get to say his peace that the actor who plays that character thought all along that Dean needed and that is Jensen. Jensen can be happy that his pal JDM came back and still think Dean needed more to say.

Jensne has been pretty consistent of late with want he thinks Dean wanted and needed wrt to having a word with John. And as usual, IMO, Jensen did not portray Dean as having real closure with John here but just decided to be happy in the moment.

I think it's interesting that never said "I forgive you" or something to that effect. I do appreciate that in the writing.

I love JDM, but I think he dictated these terms for his character's benefit more than what was best and true for the story.

Now, all that said, and given my ongoing spec of Jensen taking hiatus, they have left room for John to come back again and do something different, if the show wants to use him to fill the gap if Jensen does leave. Again, not spoilers just my ongoing spec.

[catrox14]

I thought the shout-out was cute in one episode, and I guess for the 300th but I really hope they don't continue with it. Of course the shout-outs feed my" Dean is gonna die and Jensen is gonna leave "headcanon .... and no you can't talk me out of it..

[rue721]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think it's interesting that never said "I forgive you" or something to that effect. I do appreciate that in the writing.

That is interesting, because I think that's probably what would have made sense for the episode thematically. Like, Sam gets approval and Dean gives forgiveness.

But I'm glad they didn't go in that direction after all. I've got a soft spot for John, but I think Dean forgiving him would be a bit much.

I think what Dean was saying in the dish-washing scene is that he's accepted John's (and Mary's) limitations. He's let go of his anger as much as possible, moved on as much as possible.

But outright forgiveness? I dunno, that's a whole other kettle of fish.

[catrox14]

18 hours ago, Lemuria said:

probably would have.  But, boy, would it have started wildfires IMO:  if, for some reason, it was Sam who had to use it to make the "get rid of Michael" wish--maybe Michael's presence in Dean interfered with Dean's being able to use the pearl, for example--an

I'm surprised they didn't make it that Dean's desire was to bring back John so Sam can get closure. I'm not being snarky here.

It would have bookended Dean telling Mary how much Sam suffered in s12. And it would fit in with Dean always being the peacekeeper between John and Sam. And I could accept it at the same time as hating it

Also, if , as I've thought before, that maybe what was in that book was related to Sam's suffering more than Dean's end. I still think Dean built the box to stop something related to Sam and Lucifer. So here in his heart , he wanted that for Sam or to protect Sam in some way. And unfortunately, that seems to be how the show sees Dean wrt to Sam. Jmho

[Myrelle]

36 minutes ago, SueB said:

Suggesting that the events of 14.13 had a positive effect on Dean is not a 'strawman argument', it's a different opinion than others expressed. 

I think you're misunderstanding her intent in that post. She said that criticizing the writing for how they attempted to execute the thought that this episode was meant to show us that having John back had a mostly positive effect on Dean is not the same thing as saying that it had a negative effect on Dean or that Jensen hadn't conveyed that well or well enough through his acting.

She's saying that she can see and understand the obvious here and what both the actors and the writers were attempting to do in trying to showcase all of those "of course" statements, but it was the execution within the writing of that that she had the problem with and that she thought that it was poor in a number of ways; and that's not the same thing as saying that she didn't see those things or understand that the writers and actors were attempting to convey them or even that the actors had failed in that endeavor. It's claiming that she was saying that her "of course" statements weren't conveyed to her or understood by her at all that's the strawman argument here. And IA.

That's how I interpreted it, anyway.

[Myrelle]

49 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It seems like there are two different conversations here. It seemed you were arguing that those who disagree it was a good experience for Dean aren't really getting it because you used Jensen enjoying JDMs return to say Jensen therefore Dean is okay with it. Others mentioned what Jensen has said in the recent past about what he thinks Dean wanted from John, which is not what happened in the episode hence saying it wasn't good for Dean.

At this point, I think Dabb altered the story for JDM to get him back and IMO Dabb focused solely on what JDM wanted for John which is for John to not be a bad dad to the boys or at least to not have damaged them like he did.

But that isn't what happened in the show all these years and only one character didn't get to say his peace that the actor who plays that character thought all along that Dean needed and that is Jensen. Jensen can be happy that his pal JDM came back and still think Dean needed more to say.

Jensne has been pretty consistent of late with want he thinks Dean wanted and needed wrt to having a word with John. And as usual, IMO, Jensen did not portray Dean as having real closure with John here but just decided to be happy in the moment.

I think it's interesting that never said "I forgive you" or something to that effect. I do appreciate that in the writing.

I love JDM, but I think he dictated these terms for his character's benefit more than what was best and true for the story.

Now, all that said, and given my ongoing spec of Jensen taking hiatus, they have left room for John to come back again and do something different, if the show wants to use him to fill the gap if Jensen does leave. Again, not spoilers just my ongoing spec.

IA with everything here, especially the parts about them catering to JDM to make John look better. I thought that was really obvious and the character suffered for it, IMO.

Someone up thread said that John was always(in their opinion) depicted as somewhat of an asshole father who still loved his kids and I have to agree with that assessment and found that John to be more Real than the one we got here. 

The John that we got in this episode was way too vanilla of a character for my tastes. I said that I never liked him(the character), but I did find the Dean/John dynamic very interesting and entertaining, even so and I'd always hoped that they would be able to iron out quite a few things, too. This episode did not deliver on that for me and no few others here from what I'm reading. He got to iron out one thing with Sam and that was all, IMO.

Simple statements of "I love you."(from all parties) and "I'm proud of you" doesn't constitute ironing out things to me. It might work for some and that's cool, but it didn't work for me and I don't buy the too little time excuse. He could have ironed out one thing with Dean, if he had time to iron out one thing with Sam, IMO; but all I can say about that is Thank Chuck for Jensen Ackles-the most under rated actor on television, IMO.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Myrelle

[SueB]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It seems like there are two different conversations here. It seemed you were arguing that those who disagree it was a good experience for Dean aren't really getting it because you used Jensen enjoying JDMs return to say Jensen therefore Dean is okay with it. Others mentioned what Jensen has said in the recent past about what he thinks Dean wanted from John, which is not what happened in the episode hence saying it wasn't good for Dean.

At this point, I think Dabb altered the story for JDM to get him back and IMO Dabb focused solely on what JDM wanted for John which is for John to not be a bad dad to the boys or at least to not have damaged them like he did.

But that isn't what happened in the show all these years and only one character didn't get to say his peace that the actor who plays that character thought all along that Dean needed and that is Jensen. Jensen can be happy that his pal JDM came back and still think Dean needed more to say.

Jensne has been pretty consistent of late with want he thinks Dean wanted and needed wrt to having a word with John. And as usual, IMO, Jensen did not portray Dean as having real closure with John here but just decided to be happy in the moment.

I think it's interesting that never said "I forgive you" or something to that effect. I do appreciate that in the writing.

I love JDM, but I think he dictated these terms for his character's benefit more than what was best and true for the story.

Now, all that said, and given my ongoing spec of Jensen taking hiatus, they have left room for John to come back again and do something different, if the show wants to use him to fill the gap if Jensen does leave. Again, not spoilers just my ongoing spec.

Clearly we're not communicating.  I don't think that Jensen enjoying JDM's return is why I think Jensen thinks Dean is okay with the return.  I think Jensen thinks Dean is okay with the return because of how he portrayed his character.  Jensen may adore JDM but he's also VERY protective of Dean and has said so on multiple occaisions.  In the BTS scene I discussed, my point was that the emotional headspace that Jensen put himself into for his character was one of gratitude (by Dean) of the brief time with John.  I think Jensen portrayed this as ultimately a good moment for Dean, no matter how much it hurt to let John go again.  

Yes, at an appropriate time, a longer conversation between Dean and John is absolutely warranted.  And I think to that end, all the articles have made it clear that both men (JDM and Jensen) went into this episode expecting it to NOT be the last time John is on the show.  Given the short time alloted, given the state of John's relationship with Sam in 2003 versus Dean, and the complexity of the John/Dean issue -- closure with Sam is frankly the right choice to make.  John died with Sam never getting to say goodbye.  John and Dean had a relatively good goodbye.  Yes, John laid an egg on him by telling him he had to possibly kill Sammy, BUT John also apologized for his treatment and clearly attempted to say his best goodbye to Dean he could.  He said nothing to Sam except 'let's not fight'.  

And here's the part that will probably piss people off, but from my perspective, Dean would MUCH rather Sam/John get closure than work on his complicated upbringing with John.  Given the time alloted, Dean could be at peace with his relationship with John.  He got his Dad to see all the good that was done and acknowledge it.  He got to tell his Dad that he HAS a family.  He got to see his Mom & Dad reunite.  If they mentioned 'the Darkness', then John actually understands that Mary is alive because of Dean.  I'd call that something John would think is the best thing on the planet.  Dean also got to see Sam & John have closure.  These are all big wins for what is in Dean's heart.  And Dean knew right from the start -- 'just let me have one dinner' -- that this was a short time.  Even if things hadn't gone sideways so quickly, they would have come to reversing the magic pretty soon.  

So... Dean's conversation with John -- if they ever get to have it -- will be longer and more complex.  For one thing, John will need to be in a different headspace.  Second, they need to have time to both have difficult words and then come to some closure.  A one-off special in the 300th is probably too short for that topic.  

Personally, I think they will get there. I think they will have their closure moment.  And I think Jensen will make it work ... beautifully.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

And here's the part that will probably piss people off, but from my perspective, Dean would MUCH rather Sam/John get closure than work on his complicated upbringing with John. 

This is why I don't see character growth for Dean.  If he's not capable of thinking about himself once in a while on an occasion when its perfectly acceptable, he's still that blunt instrument John turned him into. 

[SueB]

13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is why I don't see character growth for Dean.  If he's not capable of thinking about himself once in a while on an occasion when its perfectly acceptable, he's still that blunt instrument John turned him into. 

I think that's a massive overstatement.  I think weighing ALL the circumstances, Dean played the cards he was dealt.  To me it shows a great understanding of the situation.  To take the short amount of time the family had and try to unpack the abuse John laid on Dean was not going to resolve anything in the time alloted.  All it would do is result in a massive amount of pain and Dean knows that.  One of the key barriers is that while Sam and Mary can see the situation - John only verbalized it as a death-bed confession.  2003 John may not have even had that thought.  Or MAYBE his 'dream' about 2019 is what gave him perspective in the first place (in order to make the statement he DID make on his death-bed).  

I give Dean a ton of credit here.  He's not 'sucking it up' IMO.  He's got the most he could out of the short interaction.  Dean was no where NEAR the 'yes, sir' guy from Season 1.  When John gave a veiled criticism about not going after a normal life, Dean gave a clapback that he HAD a family.  Dean of S1 would have taken his father's words to heart and felt guilty for continuing the fight.  (As if there was ever really a choice, but S1 Dean wouldn't see it that way).  S14 Dean is a much more self-aware individual who frankly demonstrated self-care in this episode.  He didn't open up a wound that couldn't be closed in a timely fashion.  He made the most out of the time they had and was grateful.  Which were the words the writers put in John's mouth.  I think the writers were ALSO aware they couldn't resolve John with 1 episode.  

I give Dean a LOT of credit for his self-awareness and ability to get what he needs out of life.  I don't know if everyone else gives Dean as much credit as I do.  

[Aeryn13]

I'd bet a fortune that another convo with John and Dean will never happen in the rest of the show as the writers clearly thinks everyone got perfect closure here. If they don't think Dean deserves anything more - and the episode not once brought up that John may have done something wrong with Dean, just with Sam - the issue is tabled forever. IMO this episode was the definitive end to that. And for Dean it was a generic "eh" monent.   

As I said, I think the character gets to add a nice memory to his few old ones and he likes that. But I'm just the viewer and in determining whether that scene actually gave me a feeling of catharsis or squee or anything positive? The answer is no. It was neither here nor there for me. If the scene was cut, I wouldn't feel like I lost something beyond the acting. It was kinda like the proverbial  "I'd watch so-and-so read the phone book". The content of the scene was the phone book to me. It doesn't trigger an emotional response.