Manhattan - General Discussion

kay1864 · October 16, 2015

Yeah, so it was for Nagasaki. It's been a along time since I've seen any Atomic Bomb documentary. Must have mixed up the stories for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Hey, you knew more than I did. I had no idea that Nagasaki was a secondary target until I saw your post. I knew only the story about Stimson nixing Kyoto because of its cultural significance.

algebra · October 17, 2015

I think the timeline on the show is confusing everybody, the opening scene is July 1945, then it switches back 15 months earlier which I count out as April 1944.

They were still planning to use it on Berlin. Or did I miss another time shift in the plot ?

algebra · October 17, 2015

I just rematches this episode to review the timeline: it opens in July 1945 just before the Trinity Test, then jumps back 15 months to April/may 1944.

So, Abby finds out she's pregnant, Charlie gives the speech crediting Frank with implosion and talking about bombing Berlin, the Isaacs family moves into the Winters' former residence ( broken window) and Avram is killed.

Then it jumps back to July 1945. FDR has died, the war in Europe is over, the targets are set on Japan, and Abby has either had an abortion over a year ago or she's toting around a 7 month old child.

ganesh · October 17, 2015

I knew only the story about Stimson nixing Kyoto because of its cultural significance.

That's what I'm talking about. I want to see how that plays out.

Beyond the nuclear stuff, Tokyo was massively firebombed in the NE because that's where the university is. They haven't forgotten that still. I lived there for 2 years, in that area, and there's shrines to that. The Edo-Tokyo museum has a huge exhibit about it, with the original radio, transmissions.

So, I wonder if that will play into this season. There was concern that there might be nuclear weapons development at the university.

kay1864 · October 18, 2015

Anyone else notice the amazing string ensemble music during the opening scene? Really built the tension, up to the moment the gadget was revealed.

Edited October 18, 2015 by kay1864

Tara Ariano · October 19, 2015

Frank discovers the real reason he has been taken captive.

algebra · October 19, 2015

Anyone else notice the amazing string ensemble music during the opening scene? Really built the tension, up to the moment the gadget was revealed.

I don't think any of us noticed, not too many liberal arts majors in the audience I suppose. (Although my brother is an engineer who plays piano)

I was too fixated on the pouring rain. Rain? In New Mexico? In the summer? I had no idea.

Beth64 · October 20, 2015

I don't think any of us noticed, not too many liberal arts majors in the audience I suppose. (Although my brother is an engineer who plays piano)

I was too fixated on the pouring rain. Rain? In New Mexico? In the summer? I had no idea.

Monsoons.

algebra · October 20, 2015

There, you see? The fans are more interested in monsoons than overtures.

We're all geeks here.

Primetimer · October 21, 2015

'Fatherland,' the season's second installment is a convoluted episode whose machinations feel all too familiar.

Read the story

janeta · October 21, 2015

OK, i watched and i still don't really see why he was taken captive... So who is feeding misinformation to whom?

mjc570 · October 21, 2015

I liked the episode more than last week, which isn't really saying much. I thought the whole ordeal with Frank was just too obvious - but on the other hand, Justin Kirk! I hope the show hasn't written itself in a corner, and really has a plan for (quickly) integrating Frank back with the team.

I wondered about Charlie telling the Big Secret to Abby - isn't the house still bugged? I guess, since Richard Schiff isn't around any more, and they think they got their spy, no one cares.

Edited October 21, 2015 by mjc570

Rhetorica · October 21, 2015

First of all, I loved the Geico commercial using Frank's calculations and spelling GEICO instead of CALLE! A good episode, suspenseful even though the Nazi roomie plot was evident. What I wasn't expecting was the propaganda machine being in control of Frank. Although, it is true that the first unofficial propaganda department, the US Office of War Information, began in WWII and was staffed by many communication specialists.

OK, i watched and i still don't really see why he was taken captive... So who is feeding misinformation to whom?

The US government is feeding the US public.

kay1864 · October 21, 2015

There, you see? The fans are more interested in monsoons than overtures.

We're all geeks here.

Heh. Longtime geek myself. :P

Worth a listen if you have on-demand. Kind of discordant and harmonic at the same time.

shapeshifter · October 21, 2015

It would seem that this episode is Emmy worthy in a number of categories, but I guess this show is off the Emmy radar. Do non-fans consider Manhattan to be science fiction rather than historical fiction?

In hind sight, the giveaway that Justin Kirk's character was not a prisoner (at least to me, who knows nothing of classical music) was in his claims to not hear the music that he seemed to know way too much about.

OK, i watched and i still don't really see why he was taken captive... So who is feeding misinformation to whom?

Last season the British accented guy who had the hots for Helen narc'd on Charlie, claiming (IIRC) that he sharing secrets--which he was, but just with the other U.S. gadget team so that the project could succeed--a fine point apparently lost on Richard Schiff's late character. But then Frank got Charlie released by fake confessing into the bugged air vent.

Or did you just mean:

The US government is feeding the US public.

Or did you not understand the bit about the formulas with Frank's daughter's name coded into them? That part I wasn't clear on either. Were they really from the Germans? And, if not, don't we already know the Germans do have that info (because of the real spy on the team with the glasses)? But does Frank now think (erroneously?) that the Germans don't have a gadget? Edited October 21, 2015 by shapeshifter

algebra · October 21, 2015

Well maybe we were all confused; I couldn't figure out who was an hallucination and who wasn't.

Then I was distracted by stuff like "game theory," I said to my husband "I thought John Nash invented game theory."

Husband said "I think he did, but this is a TV show." he has to remind me of stuff like that.

So, Magpie was the spy in Germany, and the photos in the folder were the ones he had smuggled out, and Frank recognized the math as his own, while Avram was getting killed so nobody knew where he was so he started hallucinating from ketoacidosis. Which some people believe gives them mental clarity.

See, I have trouble watching TV shows.

It would seem that this episode is Emmy worthy in a number of categories, but I guess this show is off the Emmy radar. Do non-fans consider Manhattan to be science fiction rather than historical fiction?

In hind sight, the giveaway that Justin Kirk's character was not a prisoner (at least to me, who knows nothing of classical music) was in his claims to not hear the music that he seemed to know way too much about.

Last season the British accented guy who had the hots for Helen narc'd on Charlie, claiming (IIRC) that he sharing secrets--which he was, but just with the other U.S. gadget team so that the project could succeed--a fine point apparently lost on Richard Schiff's late character. But then Frank got Charlie released by fake confessing into the bugged air vent.

Or did you just mean:Or did you not understand the bit about the formulas with Frank's daughter's name coded into them? That part I wasn't clear on either. Were they really from the Germans? And, if not, don't we already know the Germans do have that info (because of the real spy on the team with the glasses)? But does Frank now think (erroneously?) that the Germans don't have a gadget?

algebra · October 21, 2015

I agree we already knew information was getting smuggled out. But I don't know about you but I did not know that what's his name was working for the Germans or the Russians until the scene with the dead coyote and he said they should bury the thing because they were good people, unlike the Germans, who stuffed Avram into the trunk of a car. So then I knew whom he was working for. But maybe I missed something else.

I think all the convoluted plot devices in which we are given the time frame "4 days earlier" "15 months earlier" etc are just devices to make sure we watch all the commercials.

I didn't see the Geico ad. I think if you are seeing the ads, you're watching it wrong.

algebra · October 21, 2015

Ok so Game Theory became a "thing" in 1944 but when did Frank have time to wander into those weeds? And isn't this taking place in spring 1944?

Rhetorica · October 21, 2015

Snip

I didn't see the Geico ad. I think if you are seeing the ads, you're watching it wrong.

Nope, I was fast forwarding and thought the show was back. The scene was exactly like the show but when they showed the formula, it said GEICO. Very clever.

jrlr · October 21, 2015

Nope, I was fast forwarding and thought the show was back. The scene was exactly like the show but when they showed the formula, it said GEICO. Very clever.

I did the same thing and I thought the Geico ad was smart and funny even though I'm entirely fed up with the Geico lizard .

I'm confused about the bomb formula that Frank recognized as his own math: does that mean the Germans are building their bomb based on erroneous math? And what propaganda is the American public being fed - the Nazis are worse than they thought or the Nazis aren't as bad as they thought?

I keep getting distracted by the actors who appear in other shows. I keep looking at Rachel Brosnahan and thinking, oh, wait - she's dead in House of Cards, not Manhattan; or Richard Schiff who is now dead on Manhattan but very much alive as a character on The Affair.

algebra · October 21, 2015

Yes, what propaganda? That the war was almost won or that the Manhattan Project was making progress or needed more money?

Had these government contractors practiced the current policy of blaming all failures on Congress for not appropriating enough money? "We didn't do our jobs because you didn't give us enough money." How many times have we heard that?

Obviously, the scientists were selling secrets to the Germans and Russians because they weren't getting paid enough.

Rhetorica · October 21, 2015

"The United States Office of War Information(OWI) was a United States government agency created during World War II to consolidate existing government information services and deliver propaganda both at home and abroad."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Office_of_War_Information

peeayebee · October 21, 2015

I'm glad I'm not the only one in need for clarification. What I understand is that Frank is thought to be a spy because he "confessed" on the recording, so he was thrown into this prison. Toby tried to interrogate him but didn't get anywhere, so the trick with Justin Kirk was used. I think they learned that Frank is not a spy. I think that Meeks has given Frank's calculations to the Germans. Frank recognized them because of CALLIE. So Frank believes there IS a spy at Los Alamos. But Darrow isn't going to do anything further because he and the US want the scientists to believe that the Germans are ahead of the US so that the scientists will continue to work their butts off.

But are those photos actually from Germany? Or are they photos of Frank's chalkboard? Do the Nazis really have Frank's calculations? If not, what has Meeks given them?

If Darrow is convinced that Frank is not a spy, then does he believe there still is a spy amongst them? But there's still Frank's recorded confession. However, last week when Liza was listening to it, hearing some of it for the first time, Darrow was watching her, and I wondered if he realized this was new to her.

Edited October 21, 2015 by peeayebee

algebra · October 21, 2015

I just assumed Justin Kirk was an hallucination. Real people aren't that good-looking.

kay1864 · October 21, 2015

Got curious about Charlie's use of "WAMD". As near as I can determine:

- the phrase "atomic weapons and all other major weapons adaptable to mass destruction" was not used until *after* Hiroshima/Nagasaki

- "WAMD" was not in common use (if at all)

- Around 1947, the phrase "weapons of mass destruction" (and later, "WMD") replaced the long phrase (although it had been used at least once, in 1937)

Nice retcon attempt, writers.

kay1864 · October 21, 2015

Ok so Game Theory became a "thing" in 1944 but when did Frank have time to wander into those weeds? And isn't this taking place in spring 1944?

If Frank taught calculus, it's possible he read John Von Neumann's 1928 paper before Von Neumann's book came out in 1944.

bentley · October 21, 2015

I loved the addition of Justin Kirk, and hope it's not just a one-off. He seems like someone who could be reasoned with. Someone who's following orders, but could go off the reservation for the right cause.

If the colonel thinks Frank is in the clear, he must know something is still wrong. Otherwise the Richard Schiff character wouldn't have disappeared. And if he doesn't believe Frank is a spy, what is the purpose of holding him? That's a brilliant mind going to waste. They could keep him under guard and let him do his work. Not sure what they're trying to accomplish here.

I hope the show hasn't written itself in a corner, and really has a plan for (quickly) integrating Frank back with the team.

It seems unlikely, based on the flash forward, where it seems Frank is being hunted like an escaped prisoner, and Charlie is still in charge. But that could just be the editing monkeys.

Edited October 21, 2015 by bentley

algebra · October 21, 2015

If Frank taught calculus, it's possible he read John Von Neumann's 1928 paper before Von Neumann's book came out in 1944.

Try, any things possible. After all they didn't waste time watching tv the way we do

algebra · October 21, 2015

Yes if anybody sees Frank Winter lurking near the Trinity Test site they are supposed to arrest him, suggesting that they don't know where he is.

kay1864 · October 21, 2015

If the colonel thinks Frank is in the clear, he must know something is still wrong. Otherwise the Richard Schiff character wouldn't have disappeared. And if he doesn't believe Frank is a spy, what is the purpose of holding him? That's a brilliant mind going to waste. They could keep him under guard and let him do his work. Not sure what they're trying to accomplish here.

I think the colonel doesn't want Frank leaking to those under him that the Nazis are working off of his (old?) calculations, and they aren't nearly as far along with their bomb as they feared (especially since Magpie is dead). Doesn't want to lose the big motivating force. Even with Frank under guard, he would have to interact with people on occasion to discuss calculations, construction, etc.

Yes if anybody sees Frank Winter lurking near the Trinity Test site they are supposed to arrest him, suggesting that they don't know where he is.

Interesting that the show told us in episode 1 that Frank is not going back to the team--ever.

Latverian Diplomat · October 21, 2015

"The United States Office of War Information(OWI) was a United States government agency created during World War II to consolidate existing government information services and deliver propaganda both at home and abroad."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Office_of_War_Information

Yeah, with that whole "the Nazis are evil and dangerous" thing, they sure fooled the American people.

ganesh · October 22, 2015

I'm confused about the bomb formula that Frank recognized as his own math: does that mean the Germans are building their bomb based on erroneous math?

That's technically correct. It wasn't clear to me that Frank's work is that factor or not. This whole propaganda angle is fine with me, but I think it's something that should be played in the background. This was too convoluted for the sake of being convoluted. I get the point, and it's an interested plot well enough, but I think they over did it.

The race to the bomb is serious and compelling enough. The Germans didn't know they were behind and the Americans didn't know either. The point was to build it and test it. *First*. They're going with implosion, and Charlie doesn't know what he's doing. We know they pull it off, yet still have to make a gun bomb. Isn't that enough drama?

Also, Charlie, LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS. Don't you have the coffee mug? You can tell you wife without "telling" her, and if she doesn't respect *national security* she'll have to deal.

algebra · October 22, 2015

If Frank taught calculus, it's possible he read John Von Neumann's 1928 paper before Von Neumann's book came out in 1944.

According to Wikipedia, John Von Neumann visited the project at Los Alamos in September 1943. So there you go.

Kistiakowsky replaced Neddermeyer in 1944 as head of the implosion group but what did Neddermeyer do after that?

shapeshifter · October 22, 2015

I just assumed Justin Kirk was an hallucination. Real people aren't that good-looking.

Heh. Me too, for a bit.

I'm glad I'm not the only one in need for clarification. What I understand is that Frank is thought to be a spy because he "confessed" on the recording, so he was thrown into this prison. Toby tried to interrogate him but didn't get anywhere, so the trick with Justin Kirk was used. I think they learned that Frank is not a spy. I think that Meeks has given Frank's calculations to the Germans. Frank recognized them because of CALLIE. So Frank believes there IS a spy at Los Alamos. But Darrow isn't going to do anything further because he and the US want the scientists to believe that the Germans are ahead of the US so that the scientists will continue to work their butts off.

But are those photos actually from Germany? Or are they photos of Frank's chalkboard? Do the Nazis really have Frank's calculations? If not, what has Meeks given them?

If Darrow is convinced that Frank is not a spy, then does he believe there still is a spy amongst them? But there's still Frank's recorded confession. However, last week when Liza was listening to it, hearing some of it for the first time, Darrow was watching her, and I wondered if he realized this was new to her.

Good summary, peeayebee. About the parts I bolded: I have the same questions, except isn't Frank's recorded "confession" just that he was working with the other Manhattan team? Not that he was leaking anything beyond Los Alamos? --although he did tell his mistress--who he didn't know was learning English from his wife. Oy. But he didn't confess that, did he? I don't recall.

I think the colonel doesn't want Frank leaking to those under him that the Nazis are working off of his (old?) calculations, and they aren't nearly as far along with their bomb as they feared (especially since Magpie is dead). Doesn't want to lose the big motivating force.

Yes, I guess that was the point, but it was confusing--I think because deranged, hallucinating, starved Frank was the exposition fairy.

pasdetrois · October 22, 2015

This was too convoluted for the sake of being convoluted. I get the point, and it's an interested plot well enough, but I think they over did it.

I barely managed to watch the episode. It was overwrought and implausible. Although I did appreciate learning Frank's back story.

And Charlie spilling the beans to his wife? Annoying. I wonder how many really did this in real life.

algebra · October 22, 2015

Nah, it doesn't make sense.

If the Germans were working on Frank's calculations they were working on implosion, and if they were working on implosion they were too close.

I don't understand what the writers are doing with Frank. Liza, I think, is going to go poking around in the corn fields after the Trinity Test, discover what gamma rays can do to maize, and go to work for Monsanto. Or she's going to commit suicide.

peeayebee · October 22, 2015

... isn't Frank's recorded "confession" just that he was working with the other Manhattan team? Not that he was leaking anything beyond Los Alamos? --although he did tell his mistress--who he didn't know was learning English from his wife. Oy. But he didn't confess that, did he? I don't recall.

I can't remember exactly either. He did say that he (or 'we') set Charlie up. Rats. I don't have that on my DVR anymore. I wonder if the show is on Netflix. Or maybe someone else here remembers better.

algebra · October 22, 2015

Where did Liza send Callie? I recall she wanted to go to college in NYC but her parents didn't want her in a target zone. I just started wondering about that.

While my grandparents were alumi of Harvard and Radcliffe, my mother applied to Smith and Mt Holyoke, went to Smith in 1942. I never thought about that until now, she was my grandmother's only child (my grandfather's only other daughter was living in Holland, of all places) and Cambridge Massachusetts would have been much closer to them. They gave her a gold ID bracelet with her name and home town on it. Creeps me out to think about what was going on in their heads. What a time it was!

shapeshifter · October 22, 2015

I can't remember exactly either. He did say that he (or 'we') set Charlie up. Rats. I don't have that on my DVR anymore. I wonder if the show is on Netflix. Or maybe someone else here remembers better.

FWIW, I think this is it. From springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=manhattan-2014&episode=s01e13:

Frank's voice: When the axis sees what we're capable of, they'll have no choice.

They will have to surrender.

And then there will never be another war.

That's what we're doing behind those fences.

We're writing the prologue to a new era.

The history of peace.

I've made mistakes.

I've done things I'm not proud of, but I swear, I did all of it with you and Callie in mind.

A few months ago, a physicist from another design group came to me and he told me that his model wasn't going to work.

I revealed information that I'd been sworn to keep secret, that we have a spy inside the German atomic project and that Werner Heisenberg was months ahead of us.

I knew the army and the White House would never right the ship on their own, so Reed Akley and I engaged in a secret conspiracy to co-op the resources of his group for implosion...

Frank's voice: Akley promoted Charlie Isaacs to cover our tracks.

Set him up in case we ever got caught.

The irony is the only way we were able to crack implosion is by stealing the theory from a paper he wrote.

Now that Akley's dead, G-2s got that poor kid locked up.

They think he is a spy, but he had no idea.

There's nothing I can do but stay the course for the good of the project, for the sake of the future.

We sacrifice the few to save the many.

Edited October 22, 2015 by shapeshifter

Clanstarling · October 22, 2015

Interesting that the show told us in episode 1 that Frank is not going back to the team--ever.

There are 15 months to go - so he could come back and be banished/in trouble again. I'd hate to have him away from the main cast for the rest of the show.

Also, Charlie, LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS. Don't you have the coffee mug? You can tell you wife without "telling" her, and if she doesn't respect *national security* she'll have to deal.

This! Why any wife (or other relative) of the era would feel they have a right to know state secrets, during a world war, in the guise of "complete honesty" in their marriage is beyond me. As Charlie said, but didn't follow through on - it wasn't his secret to reveal.

ganesh · October 22, 2015

I'm over Charlie's marriage drama. Let her have her gfs on the side to keep her happy. You be a good father to the kids. I didn't particularly like Charlie much last season, but he's head of implosion now, knows Oppenheimer is nuts, and needs to produce a prototype like yesterday.

I liked episode 1, and I get last season with the whole security oversight. It's an important theme because there were actual spies who actually were successful. There's a tragic element to it in a way that's not coming out. And while I know this isn't meant to be a hard science show, they did really well with the science. I want to see that overwhelming pressure to create the bomb and what it does to these people. Helen and the boys on a camping trip isn't cutting it.

I am confident the show will pick up next week, but with a short season, you just don't have the time to do episodes like this. Do another show on the Japanese camps. I'd watch that too. Do this show on making the bomb, please.

Fell free to bring back JK though.

algebra · October 22, 2015

the writers think we want to see a soap opera with lesbian sex, so we have to see Charlie and Abby work through their marital problems. As if geeks find any of that relationship drivel interesting.

kay1864 · October 22, 2015

the writers think we want to see a soap opera with lesbian sex, so we have to see Charlie and Abby work through their marital problems. As if geeks find any of that relationship drivel interesting.

Just the lesbian sex part.

ganesh · October 22, 2015

I think how this all impacted the families is important to include. I think that's why they had Charlie tell the wife so much information because now she's all providing 'insight' into the project and it brings her in more. I'd rather see her working and forming her own pov about what's going on. Having to be told what's going on isn't that interesting. Despite it the height of incredulity of him divulging such specifics. I don't even care if she has a gf or whatever. Just don't devote large chunks of show to it. I mean, this episode had next to nothing about the bomb at all. Frank's plot was just about his LOA in Germany.

algebra · October 22, 2015

I wonder if any of the writers/producers read these comments.

If they want us to watch the ads, they need to intersperse them with trivia quizzes about physics and history.

Maybe the nonsense about Frank going to Liepzig was trying to bring in some plot line similar to the secret meeting between Bohr and Heisenberg. Somenody told somebody something, but The world has only Heisenberg's account as Bohr suffered hypoxia over the North Sea and turned into a pacifist.

Pacifism is always caused by hypoxia you know.

algebra · October 22, 2015

Just the lesbian sex part.

Oh don't go there I keep thinking about Eleanor Roosevelt and Hick. Bad visual

wellread · October 22, 2015

kay1864 and algebra,

Behave yourselves! ;-)

algebra · October 23, 2015

I watched the whole nonsensical thing over again; Frank couldn't fart without Avram Fischer knowing about it but didn't know his mother lived in Leipzig? And called the gestapo on him?

And I still think Justin Kirk is imaginary; the only person you ever see him speak to is Frank and nobody else speaks to him.

And after determining that Frank is not a spy, they don't bother to feed him, they just lock him back up in exactly the same cell Avram left him in.

So the whole thing was probably imaginary. The interviews, the big reveal. Frank is still locked up and starving and nobody knows where he is?

Also I was unable to make any sense at all out of the boys and Helen's camping trip when they are getting out of the car and said that Charlie makes Richard III look like Richard II.

I didnt think either of the Kings Richard had any redeeming qualities that history remembers, or that one was worse than the other. What was that all about?

Then that weird thing Abby said about how if you wanted to put a total end to Major League Baseball, all you'd have to do is get rid of the Yankees.

As a Red Sox fan I would never miss the Yankees, and baseball would go on just fine without them