The West Wing - General Discussion

[Orcinus orca]

Treason. 

A very powerful scene.

[ProudMary]

Here we go...

It's time to get out the vote! The first voting round of the Primetimer Awards, which will reduce the nominees from 50 to 5, is now live. I'm voting only for The West Wing. Let's get this done! Here's the direct link to the category:

Golden Oldie: Favorite Off-Air Show Of All Time

[Orcinus orca]

11 minutes ago, ProudMary said:

It's time to get out the vote!

Done!

[schnauzergirl]

Done

 

[Guest]

 

 

[juno]

[TV Diva Queen]

On 1/3/2023 at 12:25 PM, ProudMary said:

I'm glad HLN aired this holiday West Wing marathon because it's created so much new activity in this forum!

Some random comments:

Season 6 was pretty much a disaster IMO, until Josh left the White House to run the Santos' campaign. From that point on, I've looked at 6/7 as a pretty good West Wing spinoff with Josh as the main character and a healthy dose of a few of the other WW  characters (Donna, Will, Leo.) I enjoyed the campaign(s), but then I've alwas been a fan of both Jimmy Smits and of Alan Alda. Everything that was happening at the lame duck White House was boring to me. I was not a fan of the Kate Harper character and never really bought into CJ as COS. 

I didn't care for the Annabeth character either, but I generally find Kristin Chenowith annoying. (I know most people love her and I'm in the minority with this opinion.) "The Hubbert Peak" episode got me wondering. 🤔 It was one of the early appearances of the Annabeth character and also included a good-sized role for an actress I really like, Rachael Harris. I wonder if she had auditioned for the Annabeth role and instead was given the one-shot as a consolation prize. I would have liked the Annabeth role much better if Harris was acting it. JMO, of course.

One small item on the series finale that bugged me: Following the inauguration, when President and Mrs. Santos are walking out of the Capitol Building to bid farewell to the Bartlets and we have a nicely written exchange between the incoming and outgoing Presidents, Ron Butterfield is standing there and President Bartlet just silently gets into the limo. No final words to the man who's headed up POTUS's security detail for the previous eight years??? It just seemed weird to me on re-watch. Butterfield was already heading up Santos' detail during the transition, so I'll have to assume he and the President had parting words offscreen when he moved over to Santos, but a few onscreen words on the Capitol steps for the audience would have killed the writers?

Sorry to quote you 5 months later but I just finished this again last night and me and my 22yo daughter both commented on how Barlett didn't say saying to Ron.  We said "well, Bartlett is now able to show Ron how pissed he was at Ron losing Zoey".  

[Crs97]

2 hours ago, TV Diva Queen said:

No final words to the man who's headed up POTUS's security detail for the previous eight years???

I had given up on the show about halfway through the first season without Sorkin, but I came back for the last few episodes and wondered if there had been some fallout I had missed.  They blew it there.

Another missed opportunity (mostly because Sam was always my favorite character) was when Bartlett commiserated with Santos about Kennedy screwing up the curve for inaugural addresses, but said Santos got some good lines in.  I would have liked Bartlett to add, “Sam?” and have Santos nod.  I thought it would have been a nice callback to Sam’s ability as a speech writer.

[TV Diva Queen]

3 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I had given up on the show about halfway through the first season without Sorkin, but I came back for the last few episodes and wondered if there had been some fallout I had missed.  They blew it there.

Another missed opportunity (mostly because Sam was always my favorite character) was when Bartlett commiserated with Santos about Kennedy screwing up the curve for inaugural addresses, but said Santos got some good lines in.  I would have liked Bartlett to add, “Sam?” and have Santos nod.  I thought it would have been a nice callback to Sam’s ability as a speech writer.

I thought the same thing about Sam!!

I would have liked to see Toby on Inauguration day too, like when he got word that he was pardoned.  (also, my max app shut down with three minutes left in the show and I didn't fell like fussing w it, so maybe they did show Toby and I didn't see it)

[Orcinus orca]

We made it to the final five - vote for WW here!

[juno]

38 minutes ago, Orcinus orca said:

We made it to the final five - vote for WW here!

[ProudMary]

Here's the direct link to the category:

Golden Oldie: Favorite Off-Air Show of All Time

 

[Guest]

If you haven’t voted yet…..

 

 

[txhorns79]

Watching Two Cathedrals, I now find it very odd that Mrs. Landingham is having a teenager go advocate to his father for the women on the faculty and staff at the school to get equal pay.  It feels really inappropriate on her part to put Jeb in that position.  I know she mentions that she's functioning as a "big sister" for him, but she isn't his sister, she's his father's secretary and an adult woman.  I didn't really think about it before, but it bothers me now.          

[ProudMary]

Actor Paxton Whitehead passed away on June 16th at the age of 85. He appeared quite memorably in two West Wing episodes as the snooty Bernard. 😢

[Bastet]

5 minutes ago, ProudMary said:

Actor Paxton Whitehead passed away on June 16th at the age of 85. He appeared quite memorably in two West Wing episodes as the snooty Bernard. 😢

That was the first thing I thought of when reading about his death, so I posted this in the In Memoriam thread:

So many funny lines in so few minutes!

[Orcinus orca]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

So many funny lines in so few minutes!

And impeccably delivered.  I can't even put anyone else in that role and have those lines delivered so well.

[Bastet]

On 6/19/2023 at 5:22 PM, Orcinus orca said:

We made it to the final five - vote for WW here!

It won.

(I voted for The X-Files, which came in as the runner up, as I liked more seasons of that than I did this, but I'm very happy it won; when it was great, it truly was one of the best shows in all of television.)

[ProudMary]

Well done to all who voted! 👏

 

[bluegirl147]

It's about time.

[Guest]

[txhorns79]

I forgot just how awful Sam is with Laurie.  His barging into her date while she was working and humiliating her is really just unforgivable.  I just want to be like: "Sam, if you don't like her being a prostitute, just leave her alone."  Acting like this adult woman needs you to save her is just condescending.  And of course, because it's Sorkin, she goes from being upset and angry to being charmed by Sam.   

[Driad]

Happy Giant Ball of Cheese Day!

[ProudMary]

From "Bad Moon Rising"

President Josiah Bartlet: I'm confident in your loyalty to me; I'm confident in your love for me. If you lie to protect me, if you lie just once, if you lie just a little, if you lie 'cause you can't stand what's happening to me and the people making it happen, if you ever, ever lie, you're finished with me. You understand?

Charlie Young: Yes, sir.

President Josiah Bartlet: Say you understand.

Charlie Young: I understand, sir.

[AriAu]

I came here to discuss something else and then got distracted with the fact that people are still playing 6 Degrees of The West Wing with characters that pass away.

Paxton Whitehead was in Mad About You with

Helen Hunt who was in Bobby with

Martin Sheen

What I came here to mention is that Mrs Au was watching The Diplomat and I was like "that dialogue sounds familiar....only with a lot more swearing..." and sure enough it was written by Deborah Cahn. Not TWW level, but certainly familiar.

[txhorns79]

I'm doing a rewatch, and I notice in Season 1, Bartlett tells Hoynes that they don't get along because Hoynes made him beg when it came to accepting the nomination.  Then we see the flashback a couple seasons later and it turns out that Bartlett only told Hoynes about the MS right when he offered him the VP nomination.  I kept thinking: Of course Hoynes made you beg!  You beat him in the primaries, then revealed you'd been hiding a debilitating illness the entire time.  I'd be furious at Bartlett for doing that, and I would really consider not wanting to be on a ticket with someone who had been that dishonest.   

[juno]

I just re-watched the Season 2 episode 1 (In the Shadow...). I watch the following happen, Ron discovering that the President had been hit, to Hospital being non plused about it until they discover the reality of the situation, to the discovery that Josh was hit to the tension in the Emerg room.

I have probably have not seen many specific episodes in the history of TV better than this. Just an absolutely electric hour of TV with tension and killer writing. My favourite line The President: "This guy has probably 7 broken bones in his hand, can someone get him an aspirin?"

Episode 2 when they go into how the gang got together was almost as great. The scene with Josh and the President in the airport is simply amazing.

Edited July 27, 2023 by juno

[Guest]

I love that episode. There are small moments that make me laugh interspersed with all the drama, as well as moments that make me tear up.  Toby finding Josh and going from annoyed to concerned is a tearful one. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

I love that episode.

There is that moment at the hospital when the nurse answers the special phone, asks if this is a drill, then sees the sirens and realizes this is the real thing.  I think she says: "Oh shit...," but it's muffled because this is network tv.  It was just one of those moments that shows you how fast things can go from calm to absolute chaos.  Also, she's played by Denise Dowse who was Mrs. Teasley on 90210.   

[Orcinus orca]

11 hours ago, deaja said:

I love that episode. 

There are four or five that I have seen so often that I can recite the dialog.  This is one of them.

[SoMuchTV]

I don't think anyone has posted about this yet - mini-West Wing reunion on the latest episode of The Wonder Years (S02.E06):

Quote

After Bill [series regular Dulé Hill] befriends Dean's music teacher [guest star Bradley Whitford], Bill and Lillian attend a party at his house and the evening takes an unexpected turn; with their parents away, Dean, Bruce and Kim make their own plans for the night.

 

[ProudMary]

Since HBO Max became Max, Warner Brothers TV has been releasing these short compilation clips for several of its shows, including The West Wing. I've watched a few. This one is particularly good.

 

[AriAu]

Quote

I love that episode. There are small moments that make me laugh interspersed with all the drama, as well as moments that make me tear up.

The start at the Whistle Pig Diner is just so perfect....and so satisfying all at the same time., as is the scene with CJ's press conference about POTUS being shot by the best trained armed guards in the history of the world-no, I did not need to look up the quote! 

Quote

Quote

There are four or five that I have seen so often that I can recite the dialog.  This is one of them.

There are many, many, MANY that I have seen enough to recite the dialog, but none more than this 2 parter.

When a client tells me that they don't like the approach we suggest to protect them,  I almost always paraphrase Ron Butterfield "I would never let you not let me protect the President. You tell us you don't like something, we figure out something else."

Ya fell in the pool there CJ....avert your eyes.

I think they'd call it a coup d'tat....I imagine I'd do so time for that.

[Guest]

The least favorite part of those episodes is the CJ flashbacks.  She's my favorite character, so maybe I'm a little defensive of her. But, she is a professional, capable woman. Yet we're supposed to believe that while working in Hollywood in the PR business for major studios, she didn't know when the award nominations were coming out?  And that she wasn't ready and on the ball to discuss those with her client? It is contradictory to EVERYTHING we've seen of CJ. Even if she thought the movies were dumb, she wouldn't be so completely unprepared.  Not to mention, forgetting your glasses, unless you have a very serious vision issue, is not generally going to make your eyesight so poor that you don't see a SWIMMING POOL in your own backyard.  

[txhorns79]

4 hours ago, deaja said:

But, she is a professional, capable woman. Yet we're supposed to believe that while working in Hollywood in the PR business for major studios, she didn't know when the award nominations were coming out?  And that she wasn't ready and on the ball to discuss those with her client? It is contradictory to EVERYTHING we've seen of CJ. Even if she thought the movies were dumb, she wouldn't be so completely unprepared.

In the first season, when they are at that Los Angeles fundraiser, CJ doesn't know what someone who is in development at a studio does, so perhaps it tracks that she is just really bad when it comes to dealing with the entertainment industry?  

My main issue with CJ was that it was absurd that she was promoted to Chief of Staff after Leo had his heart attack.  In no way is she qualified to handle that position.         

[Bastet]

8 hours ago, deaja said:

Not to mention, forgetting your glasses, unless you have a very serious vision issue, is not generally going to make your eyesight so poor that you don't see a SWIMMING POOL in your own backyard.  

That one I'll accept; she didn't fail to see the pool, she was just so busy squint-staring at the fuzzy blob across the yard trying to figure out who it was she didn't pay attention to what was in front of her feet, bumped into the chair, lost her balance, and fell into the pool. 

8 hours ago, deaja said:

But, she is a professional, capable woman. Yet we're supposed to believe that while working in Hollywood in the PR business for major studios, she didn't know when the award nominations were coming out?  And that she wasn't ready and on the ball to discuss those with her client?

C.J. not knowing the basics about the entertainment industry while getting paid over half a million dollars a year to do PR at a huge firm for studios, however, I will not.

[AriAu]

Paul Rubens was in Pee-wee's Big Top with

Valeria Golino who was in Rain Man with

Tom Cruise who was in A Few Good Men with

Joshua Malina (or which was written by AS).

Yeah, and no matter how "checked out" CJ was, there is no chance that she didn't know when the Golden Globes nominations were coming out....socially awkward, sure, a little condescending, possibly, but unprepared, never.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, AriAu said:

Yeah, and no matter how "checked out" CJ was, there is no chance that she didn't know when the Golden Globes nominations were coming out....socially awkward, sure, a little condescending, possibly, but unprepared, never.

Exactly! And as a PR person on the West Coast, there is no way she would expect to be able to work East Coast hours. I know news cycles weren’t quite as immediate then without Twitter, et al, but news stories still often broke in the early hours on Today Show, GMA, etc. For her to be like “at this hour?” rang false to me. 

[Bastet]

3 minutes ago, deaja said:

Exactly! And as a PR person on the West Coast, there is no way she would expect to be able to work East Coast hours. I know news cycles weren’t quite as immediate then without Twitter, et al, but news stories still often broke in the early hours on Today Show, GMA, etc. For her to be like “at this hour?” rang false to me. 

Hell, crazy dedicated fans get up at the crack of dawn on the West Coast to see the nominations being announced from NY.  People working in the industry certainly know those are going to be early mornings.

They could have still had the plot point of Isobel agreeing to fire her in order to keep the studio's business just by C.J. being disdainful and smart-mouthed; they didn't need the part about her not bothering to learn anything about the industry.

[Orcinus orca]

Game on!

[Guest]

Episode 7.4 is one of the weirdest episodes in the series (yes, I'm watching it as I type this, so these things are very fresh).

Kate Harper is so rude to Mr. Frost.  Making fun of his clothes, not acknowledging that he was correct, etc. Of course, she kinda sucks in general, so this part might not be weird.

The Bartlet's coded discussion about how glad they are Ellie is straight. 

Even the way the opening is literally replaying the last minute of the previous episode.

The Toby stuff is well done (except the whole leak stuff) and I like Abby's realization that Ellie is pregnant as she takes away the champagne. 

[Crs97]

Taking away the champagne glass is my favorite part of that scene.  I also love Bartlett having the fiancé meet the joint chiefs and the look he gives CJ when she asks if he planned that.

Vic seemed like a good guy and someone Ellie would have fallen in love with.

[txhorns79]

Rob Lowe had some thoughts about leaving TWW in Season 4.  He refers to his leaving as the "best thing he ever did."  He said he did not have a good experience on the show and felt "undervalued."  My understanding was he initially was supposed to be more of the star of the show, and resented the show becoming more of an ensemble piece.   

[Orcinus orca]

33 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

My understanding was he initially was supposed to be more of the star of the show, and resented the show becoming more of an ensemble piece.

That is what I read as well;  Bartlet was just supposed to be more in the background. But Martin Sheen had such a stage presence that they completely changed the premise of the show.

[CheshireCat]

1 minute ago, Orcinus orca said:

That is what I read as well;  Bartlet was just supposed to be more in the background. But Martin Sheen had such a stage presence that they completely changed the premise of the show.

I think it's a good thing they did. I really like his quick-witted and dry/sarcastic humor. Yes, Toby, Josh and Sam had some great lines as well but Bartlet took the show to the next level.

[juno]

10 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Rob Lowe had some thoughts about leaving TWW in Season 4.  He refers to his leaving as the "best thing he ever did."  He said he did not have a good experience on the show and felt "undervalued."  My understanding was he initially was supposed to be more of the star of the show, and resented the show becoming more of an ensemble piece.   

One thing I noticed about his character is that as dynamic, smart and funny as he was, he either had very little chemistry with any females on the show or Sorkin would not allow any character to become a long time mate. Laurie was okay but they wrote her out fast. Mallory was great and so was Ainsley so this is what always puzzled me. I know they had some other commitments but they could have found someone else if they wanted to.

My only guess was that to add characters it would cost money. Lots. A guest star has to become reoccurring and then permanent. They moved Amy Gardner to reoccurring but not permanent. They did not seem to want Sam to have anything reoccurring for some reason unlike Josh.

Edited August 10, 2023 by juno

[Crs97]

I loved Sam, and I loved him with Mallory.  I was sorry to see him leave.

[Guest]

I liked Sam best with Ainsley. 
 

Last night, I watched the episode in Season 7 where Josh goes to get him. I think it would have made more sense for Sam to come to Leo’s funeral and then to talk there. I think they wanted the symmetry of Josh literally finding him in a board room again, but I just feel Sam would have been at Leo’s funeral. 

[txhorns79]

4 hours ago, deaja said:

I liked Sam best with Ainsley. 

They did have a nice chemistry.  If only Emily Procter hadn't gone off to CSI: Miami, perhaps things would have been different.  

[Crs97]

I liked him with Ainsley, too.  I hated the prostitute storyline beyond his accidentally sleeping with her in the pilot ("This is bad on so many levels!").   I thought Rob had chemistry with most of the cast.