Felicity Smoak: Bitch With Wifi

[TrueMyth]

I love that Felicity's combat expertise has progressed realistically.  She didn't have any to start with, got some pointers from Dig during season one but didn't have to fight.  In season two, she's been more savvy in season two, against the Clock King, for example, but totally not a fighter, just someone who's been around fighters for a while now.  Her shot at Slade was totally due to the element of surprise and her takedown of Cooper was awkward but awesome and borne of desperation.  She's awesome in a totally realistic way when it comes to her fighting.  Basically, she's all heart and minimum skill.

 

Of course, given the magic they sometimes have her work with technology, it's for the best that they never stretch credibility with her combat skills.

 

I will second the desire to see her out in the field undercover.  If she and Oliver stay together with little angst this season (please, god), it could be a fun time for the "pretend to be married" trope.

[tv echo]

I will second the desire to see her out in the field undercover.  If she and Oliver stay together with little angst this season (please, god), it could be a fun time for the "pretend to be married" trope.

Unfortunately, if the EPs do an episode with the "pretend to be married" trope, it'll probably be with Oliver and Laurel (in a nod to the comics) using the rationale that it will involve infiltrating some dangerous criminal enterprise, thus requiring combat skills.

[Chaser]

And at the end of the mission, he will go home to Felicity still wearing the fake wedding ring. Laurel will need to stop by the house and interrupt the sex and casually mention he even fake cheats on her and asks for a 'divorce.' Comic Canon. 

[quarks]

Unfortunately, if the EPs do an episode with the "pretend to be married" trope, it'll probably be with Oliver and Laurel (in a nod to the comics) using the rationale that it will involve infiltrating some dangerous criminal enterprise, thus requiring combat skills.

 

I don't think they'll want to go anywhere near that idea.

[tv echo]

It's hilarious how The Flash is casting another love interest for Barry and they want this character to be like Felicity Smoak. Ummm......? Is it just me or is DC really trying to capitalize on Felicity and making Felicity-like characters everywhere? Kara Danvers reminded me of Felicity and now this? 

They could've downplayed Kara's similarity to Felicity in terms of look and personality.  There's nothing wrong with making Kara slightly awkward or with her secret identity having a ponytail and wearing glasses.  Instead, they chose to increase her similarity to Felicity by having her babble and wear a pink, button-front shirt.  Felicity's debut on Arrow wearing a pink, button-front shirt is pretty iconic now.

 

Edited June 11, 2015 by tv echo

[olicityfan25]

Exactly.

[dtissagirl]

This looks to me as the typical network/studio reaction of cloning what works ad infinitum. They do it with entire TV shows [hello every superhero show ever], why wouldn't they do the same with specific characters? Felicity is the one lady character that really exploded in fan and media attention/love/success within this universe they created, it makes business sense to try to replicate her. 

 

Do I think this is reductionist? Yes. Do I think they should be trying to create all kinds of different lady characters instead of taking the one type that worked for them and trying to do more of the same? Hell yes. But this is unfortunately common Hollywood thinking: if it works, repeat the fuck out of it.

[olicityfan25]

I think for some people they don't want to admit that EBR has a lot of credit for this. It's hard to do comedy. A lot of actors say this I find. So it really is quite amazing she's done so well right off the bat.

[Morrigan2575]

This looks to me as the typical network/studio reaction of cloning what works ad infinitum. They do it with entire TV shows [hello every superhero show ever], why wouldn't they do the same with specific characters? Felicity is the one lady character that really exploded in fan and media attention/love/success within this universe they created, it makes business sense to try to replicate her. 

 

Do I think this is reductionist? Yes. Do I think they should be trying to create all kinds of different lady characters instead of taking the one type that worked for them and trying to do more of the same? Hell yes. But this is unfortunately common Hollywood thinking: if it works, repeat the fuck out of it.

I remember right after The West Wing debuted the next season every channel had a Political/DC show.  Of course there's also Movies feeding into TV, after Platoon TV launched China Beach and Tour of Duty both about Vietnam.  I can't remember what Movie promoted Young Riders and Outlaws but both came out within a year of each other.  Networks go in cycles, they find something that becomes a hit and then try to duplicate.  Right now the hot thing is Comicbooks shows, eventually it will swing back to medical dramas, soaps, political shows, etc.

 

I think the reason why Kara/Felicity parallel has become this big thing in fandom is because it's by the same producers not just network suits doing the C&P.  Plus Berlanti/AJK are relying on crossover appeal so it seems almost deliberate that they put a Felicity clone on Supergirl.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah. It's funny, I did see Kara as a Felicity clone when I first saw the Supergirl trailer, but after watching the full pilot, that impression disappeared. I could see some of the tropes they went with, but I believed Kara had her own unique personality.  

 

But  I guess I can't discount the possibility that these EPs are still burned on Laurel not happening the way they planned. And with the added criticism they got with regards to writing women on both shows, I wouldn't be surprised they're being reductionist because Felicity is their single no questions asked lady character success story. Which is a pretty sad state of affairs for them, considering they have no trouble coming up with diverse male personalities, but true nonetheless.

[foreverevolving]

And at the end of the mission, he will go home to Felicity still wearing the fake wedding ring. Laurel will need to stop by the house and interrupt the sex and casually mention he even fake cheats on her and asks for a 'divorce.' Comic Canon. 

I think I just throw up in mouth a bit, just from the idea of this happening.

[kismet]

I hope they stay away from the pretend to be married trope. I think it rarely ever works for an established couple. It works for the slow burn will they/won't they or the damaged couple trying to repair (Sydney/vaughn s4 alias). But F/O are over that part of tv journey I hope.

[tv echo]

Fangirlish's open letter to The Flash Producers/Writers...

 

Letters From Fangirlish: Stop Trying to Create Another Felicity Smoak (Because You Can’t)
JUNE 11, 2015
http://fangirlish.com/letters-from-fangirlish-stop-trying-to-create-another-felicity-smoak-because-you-cant/

According to TVLine, the casting call for the “spunky, fun and funny” love interest, named Wendy, reads “think Felicity Smoak from Arrow.” Now, I sort of understand what the casting directors are trying say, but as a fan of Felicity I don’t appreciate the perception that Felicity is a character that can be easily replicated or portrayed. Felicity has become the Felicity we all know and love today, sure because of some of her one-liners, but mainly because of what Emily Bett Rickards brings to the role.
*  *  *
Even if you were to believe you could recreate the magic that is Felicity Smoak, you can’t clone Emily. She’s one of a kind. Felicity would not be Felicity if not for Emily. Sure, what makes Felicity who we know her to be is the writing, but Emily is the one who literally breathes life into the character; into the lines and the actions that define her. With her compassion and her comedic timing. She was the blessing that no one saw coming, and everyone thanks his or her lucky stars for every day.
*  *  *
No matter how spunky or witty you try and make a character – hell, you can even cast her as a blonde who wears glasses – know that there will never be another Felicity Smoak. Felicity Smoak wasn’t someone who was manufactured, she was a character that was brought to life by an incredible actress who doesn’t get nearly enough credit for what she’s done with the character. Felicity brought light into a show that needed a clear direction and deviation from the darkness that felt overpowering at times.
*  *  *
There is only one Felicity Smoak, and she’s on Arrow. Lightning does not strike twice. Don’t forget that.

[fantique]

Yeah. It's funny, I did see Kara as a Felicity clone when I first saw the Supergirl trailer, but after watching the full pilot, that impression disappeared. I could see some of the tropes they went with, but I believed Kara had her own unique personality.

But I guess I can't discount the possibility that these EPs are still burned on Laurel not happening the way they planned. And with the added criticism they got with regards to writing women on both shows, I wouldn't be surprised they're being reductionist because Felicity is their single no questions asked lady character success story. Which is a pretty sad state of affairs for them, considering they have no trouble coming up with diverse male personalities, but true nonetheless.

Correction: the only still ALIVE female character. Movies, Shado and Sara were very popular too. I don't know a single person who didn't love the character of MQ. The writers just simply liquidated most of their good assets and kept the so-so stocks.

As for the audition call... Flattering for EBR, insulting for FS and all female characters and actresses. Oh, Hollywood. This needs to stop. Same reason why most YA movies clearly had a Kristen Stewart or J-Law type casting call. The girl in that zombie movie with Nicholas Hoult? Completely was acting as a Bella 2.0 and most people hate Kristen's acting so it really shouldn't have happened. But the suits saw dollar signs with Twilight so cloning it is.

So effing stupid. But oh well, hopefully they can get an actress who is into her role, and if she is half as smart as EBR, she can turn it around for herself. Those producers don't get in the way if an actor gets inspired so it could turn out well. Especially if they get an actress that isn't the usual LI type and is smart and funny.

Edited June 12, 2015 by fantique

[tv echo]

A fan defends Felicity in detail (and in two parts) - too lengthy to quote...

 

the most frustrating misconceptions about felicity this season part i:
http://smoakd.tumblr.com/post/120623614996/the-most-frustrating-misconceptions-about-felicity

the most frustrating ‘criticisms’ about felicity this season part ii:
http://smoakd.tumblr.com/post/120861275846/the-most-frustrating-criticisms-about-felicity

 

When the above was brought to the attention of Laura Hurley, here's what she wrote in response:  http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/post/121495213133/i-feel-like-youre-the-type-of-person-who

Thanks for the tip! I always appreciate arguments and counterarguments that take the time to address the particulars of a point before taking a stance. Using specifics with examples proves that a writer has put thought and effort into what he or she is asserting, and that doesn’t happen often enough nowadays. Bravo/Brava, smoakd .

I definitely agree about how Felicity handled the breakup with Ray. Breakups are fundamentally messy, and Felicity had a lot on her mind when she went to Ray to ask for the jet. Both parties involved were admirably mature, and I didn’t think less of either of them for how they handled it.
 

My thoughts about Felicity’s career are a bit…grayer.

I won’t say that Felicity was exactly handed her promotions from IT girl to CEO. I do think, however, that she caught a lucky break in having her credentials and value acknowledged at her age. She could have very well carried on for the rest of her life in a quiet corner of the IT sector, wearing panda flats and quirky sweaters. Instead, circumstances unfolded in such a way that her unique skills were in more demand than they would have been otherwise. Felicity becoming CEO is Meryl Streep winning her first Academy Award and J. K. Rowling receiving international acclaim for her Harry Potter books. The talent is there, the hard work is there, and the credit is deserved…but without perfect timing at impossible moments to allow for the extraordinary, she never would have gotten where she is. There’s no shame in that.

Regarding Felicity’s lack of a business degree to run QC…I actually want her to struggle with running a major company in Season 4. She’s a specialized worker incomparable to others in her field…but that’s her field. I believe that she is more than capable of finding the way to manage a corporation, but I don’t want it to come automatically to her. Oliver had to pour blood, sweat, and tears into getting his nearly 100% success rate at archery; Felicity should be allowed to have a hard time learning to channel her genius in this whole new way. Automatic perfection is boring.
 

Besides, the company wasn’t really run by Oliver, was it? I always got the impression that Oliver was at his most functional as CEO whenever he remembered to put on a tie before dropping by the office and generally let most of the day-to-day affairs be handled by Isabel and Felicity.

Edited June 14, 2015 by tv echo

[Ceylon5]

These parts of the defence amused me:

Felicity doesn’t have the capabilities or a business degree to run QC.

In a world where there are vigilantes who can learn to kick butt in a matter of months (and rarely anyone complains about it) and can hold their own against members of the LoA who’ve been training all their lives, a world where an archer has an almost 100% success rate in shooting his targets, a world where mirakuru exists, and the ATOM exists, apparently the line is drawn at a woman –who is a certified genius– being able to run a company? The same company which was run by Oliver? Really? That’s where things get unbelievable?

and after listing all the things Felicity did this season to contradict the criticism that Felicity did nothing all season but bitch and cry, she concludes:

So basically if it wasn’t for Felicity Smoak, Laurel wouldn’t have become BC, Oliver would be dead, Barry probably would’ve been dead, Lyla would’ve been dead, half of Starling would’ve died from the virus, Starling would’ve been devastated by Cooper’s use of the virus, Ray wouldn’t have had his suit.

 

The particular things people have apparently chosen to bitch about are interesting.  It clearly shows that it's complete viewer bias, because things that were considered totally fine (even cool) in one season when the character was popular are now vilified in the next season when hating her has now become the thing among this particular subset of viewers.  Practically the only thing Felicity did this season that she hasn't done in earlier seasons is to get herself a little loving.  A few examples:

 

1) Has she been forced into a job by a man who is using her for his own ends before? Yes, I refer you to 2x02 for more detail.  At least this time around she got a good job out of it.

 

2) Has she ever been randomly given a job (without being asked first) in something she's not directly qualified in?  Yes, again see 2x02.  For other people getting jobs they're not qualified for/undeserved promotions, please see: Oliver (CEO), Laurel (ADA), Thea (club manager), Tommy (whatever his position at his Dad's company was), Moira (running for mayor right after being on trial for destroying part of the city she wants to run!!!), all the insta-Ninja's (Roy, Laurel, Thea, Ray), and so on.  And unlikely skills winner goes to Oliver for knowing Mandarin and Russian without any reasonable explanation as to how he became so fluent (even to the point of being able to read them) so fast.

 

3) Has she crapped on Oliver before?  Repeatedly throughout S1 & S2, whenever he did things she didn't agree with.

 

4) Has she hit a bad guy over the head before? Yes, see 2x01, when she saves Oliver by clobbering a guy over the head.

 

5) Has she briefly resigned from Team Arrow before?  Yes (in S1). And every other team member has also resigned on more than one occasion.

 

6) Has she locked someone in someplace to prevent them from doing something she didn't think they should do?  Yes, in S1 she locked Oliver into the Lair.

 

7) Has she ever drugged Oliver to save him and try to buy time to talk him out of Martyr Mode?  Yup, she and Diggle did that at the end of S2.

 

8) Has she gone into the field?  Hell, yes, tons of times throughout S1 and S2 - far more so than in S3.  I can't believe people are suddenly bitching about her doing it now, when they all applauded her like crazy in the S2 finale.  I'm certain that if Felicity had flown the ATOM suit to save Oliver at any point in S2 when the fanboys still loved her, they would all be saying how awesome it was.  It's only because they're bitching about her every breath now that they're criticising this.  And she can't win because she's simultaneously being accused of not doing anything but cry, but at the same time, whenever she's proactive and does something brave and daring, she's criticised for being able to do things that she's suddenly not allowed to do because... not sure, does not compute.  So apparently she shouldn't whack a guy over the head or throw her tablet or fly the ATOM suit, because although she's always done similar things, now that everyone else is a partly trained masked fighter she's suddenly no longer allowed to do anything that could even vaguely be classified as physical or as (how dare she) wearing a costume?  How very, very dumb.  And childish.

 

It's also noticeable that if Oliver does something dumb/selfish, the masses don't turn on him and wish him dead and gone.  If he puts hundreds of thousands of lives at risk in a gamble to save one life (or if Barry puts the entire universe at risk), that's totes cool, but Felicity isn't allowed 10 seconds to panic over Oliver's life before NOT putting anyone's life at risk except her own.  Oliver and Barry actually DID those things, and people ACTUALLY DIED as a result; Felicity just thought about it for a few panicked seconds before her head cleared and she came up with an alternative plan.  Oliver lies to and tries to control other people all the time, and also forcibly protects people whether they like it or not (e.g. him benching Diggle) and nobody hates him for it, but Felicity shuts a door so that Roy and Diggle won't be killed (and bear in mind that this happened the same day she discovered that Oliver was dead), and suddenly she's selfish.  Huh? (Who are these people making these criticisms?)  And Oliver makes some ridiculous rule that he can't be the Arrow and date her and she gets blamed for it?  WTF?

 

Let's face it, most of the characters achieved precious little that was worthwhile this season.  What did Laurel and Thea accomplish other than some unreliable fighting skills (oh, and dumb costumes)?  All that means is that they've progressed to being about 1/1000th as useful as Felicity is on her worst day.  Felicity, like Cisco on The Flash, does all these remarkable things that everyone (in show and out) just seems to take for granted.  In reality, without those two, 80% of the storylines on both shows just wouldn't work.

 

On another note, I was thinking about how Not!Wells on The Flash said to Felicity: "I foresaw great things from you" and now that we know that he's Evil Future Dude and that Oliver was famous enough to be in history books, and that Evil Future Dude probably did his homework on the era he was travelling back to, it seems probable that he made a note of Felicity, Cisco and Caitlyn because he knew that in at least one timeline, they did great things (so the "foresaw" was more a case of "read about you in a history book").  I really like the idea of Felicity going down in history for having done "great things".  Even if the timeline changes due to Evil Future Dude and Barry's time travel shenanigans, she is who she is and is always capable of doing great things.

[dtissagirl]

I've been seeing A LOT of people who hate romance, and hate 'shipping, and hate 'shippers transfering all of their hatred to Felicity. And a whole lot of it comes off mysoginistic as hell too. I honestly have no problem with people hating Felicity for whatever reason, but the sexist language that's coming along with it is fucked up.

[tarotx]

People do complain about Oliver. A lot.

[Chaser]

People have complained about Oliver/Diggle (we certainly have), but the language used is completely different then the language directed at Felicity.

 

Oliver gets 'I liked it when Oliver was smarter in S1/S2' 

 

Felicity calls him out on the stupid "Shut up and listen to Oliver!"

 

Diggle refuses to work with Malcolm "Diggle is the Man."

 

Felicity refuses to work with Malcolm "She doesn't understand anything, she can't see the big picture, she needs to sit down and listen to the Oliver."

[wonderwall]

Ummm *raises hand* those posts were mine :p 

 

I was just getting SUPER tired of people bitching about Felicity that I just sort of exploded. I took over that blog from a friend of mine about a year ago? Maybe a little more. But yeah, I'm glad those posts caught a little traction though :)

 

These parts of the defence amused me:

 

Lmao I'm glad you liked some of my points :D

 

But seriously your entire post was perfection. I think she's gotten a lot more hate this season because she's now the love interest?. I think people sort of expected that now that she's a romantic interest she should follow her men blindly. And I find it interesting to see people complain that she didn't do anything (when Felicity in actuality had the most effect to everything that happened this season), when other characters like Laurel, Thea, and yes, even Diggle didn't accomplish as much. 

Edited June 14, 2015 by wonderwall

[tarotx]

That's because some people don't like Felicity, some don't want her as love interest, Others just don't think EBR handled the emotion of s3 and some people just aren't in favor of women in super hero shows. And others aren't into those who aren't in mask-Look how Laurel was treated until she got her mask.

But mostly when you aren't a fan of the show's lead you are more likely to stop watching and find one you enjoy. It's not the same with supporting players.

Oliver has gotten strong criticism especially this season.

[wingster55]

I don't think I'll ever understand why Felicity got a lot of hate this season. 

 

She's ever seen to be wrong, characters are dumbed down because of her. (Ok just Oliver), her character hasn't grown or developed much.

 

http://www.thearrowverse.com/my-thoughts-on-felicity-smoak.html

This has many things I agree with (and many I don't)

Such as: 

 

When I say "Oliver Queen was clearly dumbed" I don't mean from the comics, I mean from the first few episodes of the show... Clearly Oliver's didn't have the skills to hack into a bullet hole ridden computer that had been owned and secured by a paid assassin (Deadshot), but he DID have the expertise to create an arrow that wired money to various accounts in the first episode of the show, he also could track down high-profile businessmen and knew when to strike them, amongst other things.

 

You may not understand because you aren't trying to see it from another perspective perhaps?

[wonderwall]

She's ever seen to be wrong, characters are dumbed down because of her. (Ok just Oliver), her character hasn't grown or developed much.

 

You may not understand because you aren't trying to see it from another perspective perhaps?

 

Can you give me an example of when characters are dumbed down so Felicity can seem smarter? Because her expertise isn't something that other people have. Felicity has only seemed smart regarding all things tech. She never made Ray seem dumb, she never made Barry or Cisco or Sara seem dumb. She's an expert in computer sciences, that's where she excels. It'll be like saying a rocket scientist makes me look dumb... No, we're just intelligent in different ways. 

 

I'm trying to see it from other people's perspective but I can't. There's a reason why they had to bring in Felicity, because if you were in the fandom back then, people were wondering how in the world Oliver could hack into things in the first two episodes when he was on an island his time away. Not only that, I remember an interview with MG or AK where they stated they brought Felicity in for that exact reason. It wasn't believable for Oliver to be able to use a computer to the ability that Felicity can. 

 

There's a reasonable explanation as to why Oliver HAD to be dumbed down. It was for believability and not to make Felicity (who was only supposed to be in 1 episode) look smarter. 

Edited June 14, 2015 by wonderwall

[dtissagirl]

Applause for you, @wonderwall. :)

What I find amusing is nobody throws shade at Lyla for having a relationship with Diggle. Nobody hates Thea for loving Roy. But it's like Felicity stole the thunder of every fanboy when Oliver fell in love with her, and stopped being the poster boy for womanizing men everywhere.

The previous seasons, even when Oliver was in love with Laurel, he was still dating, and sleeping with other women. He fell for Felicity and boom, started something with Sara. That was the epitome of ~manhood~ for a lot of the male demo. This season not only he was celibate for 20 episodes -- he didn't even look at other women AT ALL. It was Felicity, or nobody. And I think that doesn't really sit well with the dudebro crowd -- ESPECIALLY when Felicity was getting some with Crazy Eyes.

Edited June 14, 2015 by dancingnancy

[frenchtoast]

This is not a fan or hater site. Please do not snark people because of who they like or don't like. People can criticize or admire Felicity. They do not need to write a dissertation as to why in order persuade anyone. 

[doesntworkonwood]

When I say "Oliver Queen was clearly dumbed" I don't mean from the comics, I mean from the first few episodes of the show... Clearly Oliver's didn't have the skills to hack into a bullet hole ridden computer that had been owned and secured by a paid assassin (Deadshot), but he DID have the expertise to create an arrow that wired money to various accounts in the first episode of the show, he also could track down high-profile businessmen and knew when to strike them, amongst other things.

 

I'm pretty sure that that being unbelievable was the reason Felicity came in.

 

I don't have time to find the sources now, but as far as I'm aware the pilot was first aired during comic con in 2012. During that time, the writers got feedback saying that it made no sense that a guy who'd spent 5 years on an Island, and wasn't exactly the most academically gifted before hand, would be able to hack into bank accounts. Even if he'd only been on the Island for a year he wouldn't be able to do so because technology moves so fast that his skills would have been out of date. 

 

They would have got these criticisms pretty early on, in July/August, just in time to bring in Felicity in episode three. I honestly think that this was just an example of, as the tropers say, early installment weirdness rather than purposely dumbing down Oliver to bring in Felicity. 

[wonderwall]

She's ever seen to be wrong, characters are dumbed down because of her. (Ok just Oliver), her character hasn't grown or developed much.

 

Can you honestly say that Felicity is the same character she was in season 1? Because I don't think she's the same character she was in season 1. I don't think ANYONE thinks she's the same character she was in season 1 because there's a reason why her detractors are saying "I liked her better in season 1" It means that Felicity is different, she's grown and developed. This season added a new dimension to Felicity. The show gave her more flaws: 

 

• Felicity tends to say cruel things when she’s emotionally compromised
• Felicity’s knee jerk reaction is to save the people she loves first – then deal with the consequences (saving Digg/Roy, saving Oliver twice)
• Can tend to not look at the bigger picture (why Oliver has to team up with Malcolm is one example)
• Tends to say inappropriate things at times
• More morally grey than people tend to realize. She’s okay with Oliver killing Ra’s and in season 2 accepted that killing was part of the deal and didn’t think anything of it (well, not at first but accepted it afterwards)
• Can be really hard headed especially concerning subjects she feels strongly about
• Is a little desperate to have someone in her life romantically – She just wants to be loved, to the point where she dates Ray and forgives him/overlooks his douchey behavior in episode 17. She even quickly forgave Oliver in the season finale but at least she gave him some piece of mind. – But hey, I can’t fault her for this. It’s human to want to be with someone, to have someone to go home to, to have someone to lean on.

 

Not only that, but in the past 2 seasons, Felicity has grown to become a stronger individual who's more sure of herself, who sticks up for her values no matter what... She isn't self sacrificing anymore as she now realizes that there's more to life than the mission which is why she became a tad bit more selfish and fought for what she wanted this season, which is happiness. 

Edited June 14, 2015 by wonderwall

[wingster55]

Can you give me an example of when characters are dumbed down so Felicity can seem smarter???

 

I said in my post "just Oliver". And I never questioned Oliver knowing how to do that in the pilot. Wasn't it kind of obvious that he HADN'T been on the island only for those 5 years? Or the island wasn't as uninhabited as the pilot made it seem? For instance...Deathstroke mask. Oliver certainly didn't teach himself Russian (or as we later discover, Mandarin)

[doesntworkonwood]

I said in my post "just Oliver". And I never questioned Oliver knowing how to do that in the pilot. Wasn't it kind of obvious that he HADN'T been on the island only for those 5 years? Or the island wasn't as uninhabited as the pilot made it seem? For instance...Deathstroke mask. Oliver certainly didn't teach himself Russian (or as we later discover, Mandarin)

You might not have, and that's fine, but since it was one of the main criticisms they got when the pilot first aired it makes sense that they made an effort to rectify it by bringing in Felicity. It wasn't obvious for other people. And learning a language is a lot different than learning computing. Languages change over years. Computing can change in about a week. 

[wingster55]

 

Can you honestly say that Felicity is the same character she was in season 1? Because I don't think she's the same character she was in season 1. I don't think ANYONE thinks she's the same character she was in season 1 because there's a reason why her detractors are saying "I liked her better in season 1" It means that Felicity is different, she's grown and developed. This season added a new dimension to Felicity. The show gave her more flaws: 

 

 

Not only that, but in the past 2 seasons, Felicity has grown to become a stronger individual who's more sure of herself, who sticks up for her values no matter what... She isn't self sacrificing anymore as she now realizes that there's more to life than the mission which is why she became a tad bit more selfish and fought for what she wanted this season, which is happiness. 

She may have had some development but not as much as say Thea or Roy. Or even Oliver. 

She's always stood up to Oliver, had no issue speaking her mind etc. Is there any specific example that paints her change?She still says 

awkward things for example...maybe we learn she's a bit cruel when a loved one dies..but we've never seen her experience that prior to Sara (i.e she didn't really give a damn about Tommy or Moira)

[wonderwall]

I said in my post "just Oliver". And I never questioned Oliver knowing how to do that in the pilot. Wasn't it kind of obvious that he HADN'T been on the island only for those 5 years? Or the island wasn't as uninhabited as the pilot made it seem? For instance...Deathstroke mask. Oliver certainly didn't teach himself Russian (or as we later discover, Mandarin)

 

But that's an example that had been questioned by fans and critics ad nauseum until Felicity became a regular? Even Oliver's setup until episode 14 was unimpressive until Felicity came in. Oliver isn't an idiot when it comes to computers, but he certainly wasn't an expert. Not one that's savvy enough to hack into government databases. Oliver isn't that much of a Marty-Stu who can do everything. 

 

If you read my post clearly I explained why Oliver being able to use a computer as efficiently as Felicity was ridiculous. Because at that point, all the audience knew was that Oliver was stuck on that island for 5 years. I don't think it's possible to become an expert regarding computers on an island for 5 years. And I think people expected Oliver to be on that island for 5 years because of the voiceover at the beginning of the episode where Oliver said "For 5 years I was on a hellish island"... So people didn't expect him to get off of it. 

Edited June 14, 2015 by wonderwall

[wingster55]

 

Computing can change in about a week.

True but Oliver could've learned that skill, the week before he was rescued. I don't know..as has been pointed out many things on this show defy realism...this could be one of them (which I don't fully agree with)..it's on par with Felicity expected to be a leader for a company with 100+ employees (which takes exceptional leadership qualities..which as you all know I don't believe she has

[wonderwall]

She may have had some development but not as much as say Thea or Roy. Or even Oliver. 

She's always stood up to Oliver, had no issue speaking her mind etc. Is there any specific example that paints her change?She still says 

awkward things for example...maybe we learn she's a bit cruel when a loved one dies..but we've never seen her experience that prior to Sara (i.e she didn't really give a damn about Tommy or Moira)

 

Okay, so Felicity developed but not as much as Thea or Roy or Oliver (who I think regressed this season)... But it's only a problem with Felicity? What about Diggle? Because the only way he changed was he got a family. Why is it a problem that Felicity didn't develop as much but not a problem that Diggle didn't develop as much? 

 

I think both Diggle and Felicity were fully formed characters when we saw them. They weren't broken, they were self sufficient, they were both strong and had a lot of conviction. Yeah I agree Felicity and Diggle didn't grow as much as Thea and Roy and Oliver but that's because there wasn't much room for growth. BUT I disagree that they didn't develop as characters because over the years we saw the writers deepen each character by creating flaws for each of them, by giving them autonomy, by giving them dreams/wants/needs/likes/dislikes. We've seen both Diggle and Felicity develop that way because they weren't broken to start off with like Oliver/Thea/Roy. So it's not a fair comparison. 

Edited June 14, 2015 by wonderwall

[dtissagirl]

Well, character development doesn't only mean the kind of change you're talking about. Thea and Roy started out from places where change WAS needed if they were gonna end up heroing. One was a drug addict, and the other was a thief.

Felicity started out from a good, albeit boring and lonely place. But she didn't really have those kind of adversities she had to overcome. Her character development was about how would she react to being thrown into a crazy enviroment. And she developed -- from being lonely and leading a boring life to being super able to deal with the crazy, to forging a place for herself in the team, to making a family out of the team, to being indispensable to the mission, to falling in love with Oliver and realizing she wants her life to be more than just the mission. That's all character development.

Edited June 14, 2015 by dancingnancy

[frenchtoast]

TIME OUT FOLKS!! This is getting way too personal and heated. There is no need to demand that someone agree with you about a character. People are allowed to see characters without defending themselves with evidence and footnotes. 

[wingster55]

So you can only come up with one example? An example that had been questioned by fans and critics ad nauseum until Felicity became a regular? Even Oliver's setup until episode 14 was unimpressive until Felicity came in. Oliver isn't an idiot when it comes to computers, but he certainly wasn't an expert. Not one that's savvy enough to hack into government databases. Oliver isn't that much of a Marty-Stu who can do everything. 

 

If you read my post clearly I explained why Oliver being able to use a computer as efficiently as Felicity was ridiculous. Because at that point, all the audience knew was that Oliver was stuck on that island for 5 years. I don't think it's possible to become an expert regarding computers on an island for 5 years. And I think people expected Oliver to be on that island for 5 years because of the voiceover at the beginning of the episode where Oliver said "For 5 years I was on a hellish island"... So people didn't expect him to get off of it. 

Well, I'm not going to re-examine all the episodes right now to see how Oliver functioned without Felicity (though I do think the ep where Oliver can't seem to fight crime at all in 2.10 when Felicity was with Barry was a bit much)...especially as she was introduced in ep 3 and was in at least 75% of s1. 

 

It seems those that made the complaint imo weren't really thinking about the show, or the clear misdirect of the monologue. I certainly don't expect him to say "2 years on a hellish island, 1 year in China, a year traveling around, a couple of months in Russia" etc. 

[doesntworkonwood]

True but Oliver could've learned that skill, the week before he was rescued. I don't know..as has been pointed out many things on this show defy realism...this could be one of them (which I don't fully agree with)..it's on par with Felicity expected to be a leader for a company with 100+ employees (which takes exceptional leadership qualities..which as you all know I don't believe she has

But you can't learn the entirety of computing in a week?

 

And at that point it was only the pilot that had aired. There was nothing that defied realism besides the basic premise of the show. The entire hook of the show was that it was a realistic superhero show, and they needed to ground the show in realism. Therefore they brought in Felicity. 

 

Looking at that time no one knew what direction the show was going to go in. We can look back now and say 'but nothing in this show makes sense in the real world', but at that time the show was not intended to go in that direction. That's why the criticisms were taken on board. 

 

It's like the first season of Parks and Rec. It was criticised a lot, and by the second season a lot of the characters had changed because of that criticism. That's why there is a fair amount of difference between the first season and all subsequent ones. And that's what happened here. There was criticism, and they fixed the show to because of it. 

[Carrie Ann]

I'll be honest and say that I find myself more annoyed with the supporting characters' flaws and mistakes because Oliver's are almost always called out in the text, and he almost always pays for those mistakes. (Thea in S1 and Laurel in S2 also spent a lot of time making mistakes and paying for them.) The supporting cast--including Felicity--do have flaws like the ones @wonderwall lists above, but they are often flaws that only the viewer points out, not the show itself, if that makes sense.

 

The only time this season I thought the show stood in judgment of Felicity was in 305 when she hurt her mother's feelings (similarly, for the brief moment in 302 when she hurt Oliver's). Anyone have other examples of Felicity acting badly when the show acknowledged it? I mean, there was the scene where she had to apologize to Ray but she wasn't in the wrong there so UGHHHHH I hate that episode so much.

 

Anyway, if I want the show to acknowledge that Laurel can be cold, demanding, entitled, etc., instead of pretending she's a bastion of selflessness and compassion, then I also want the show to acknowledge that cruel streak Felicity possesses, that she isn't as much of a greater-good person as she might appear, that she acts rashly sometimes and can be a little ruthless, that her unwillingness to examine her feelings isn't ideal. And when I say acknowledge, I don't just mean "present." I mean, show how those things hurt other people, how they can be dangerous, how they hinder her personal growth.

 

I like these things about her. They make her interesting, complex, more fleshed-out. But I do find it annoying when they aren't called out in the show, because it makes me question whether the writers see them at all. I'm not sure the writers care about the depth of her character, and I think they way overestimated how invulnerable she was to backlash, so they put her in all sorts of difficult positions without even giving it a second thought.

[tarotx]

Felicity wouldn't have to be a leader of 100+ employees. She could be a thinker of ideas, know how to get said ideas done and then delegate to the people who know how the do the little things that eventually accomplish her big ideas.

[wonderwall]

True but Oliver could've learned that skill, the week before he was rescued. I don't know..as has been pointed out many things on this show defy realism...this could be one of them (which I don't fully agree with)..it's on par with Felicity expected to be a leader for a company with 100+ employees (which takes exceptional leadership qualities..which as you all know I don't believe she has

 

I think Oliver was a little too busy trying to keep himself alive to be worried about learning how to use a computer though :p There were more important things to worry about. And I don't think learning how to hack is something you can learn in a week, you know? I mean it's like asking me to create financial statements after learning rudimentary finance for about a week :p

 

The show does defy realism at times, but it only goes so far. There are limits that needed to be created, and being an expert hacker after 5 years on a hellish island just doesn't cut it. Because it's obvious Oliver couldn't really learn to hack on an island where 90% of the time he was learning archery/different languages/trying to survive. It just makes no sense. 

 

I really want Felicity to struggle being the CEO. I don't want to see her succeed at first. I want her to fumble. We don't know how she's going to be like running a company. So I don't think it's fair to say that she'll be amazing at it. 

 

 

Well, I'm not going to re-examine all the episodes right now to see how Oliver functioned without Felicity (though I do think the ep where Oliver can't seem to fight crime at all in 2.10 when Felicity was with Barry was a bit much)...especially as she was introduced in ep 3 and was in at least 75% of s1.

 

I don't think it's a fair observation to say that Felicity was in 75% of season 1 of Arrow when her time on each episode until she was introduced to the foundry was limited to less than a minute per episode. 

 

 

It seems those that made the complaint imo weren't really thinking about the show, or the clear misdirect of the monologue. I certainly don't expect him to say "2 years on a hellish island, 1 year in China, a year traveling around, a couple of months in Russia" etc.

 

A lot of people were surprised to find out that Oliver WASN'T on an island for 5 years after the season 2 finale. I think it's possible that they (including me) thought that Oliver learned Mandarin/Russian on the island depending on who he was with at the time. I certainly thought that Oliver was on the island for 5 years and you know I analyze the hell out of the show :p The monologue wasn't a misdirect, it wasn't done to fool people. It was simply that the writers didn't really think that far ahead in terms of the flashbacks. Especially in season 1 when they were trying to figure out how to iron out the kinks of the show. 

[statsgirl]

I can't think of anything more unrealistic than Ray Palmer, 3 PhDs in sciences, running multibillion dollar companies while producing amazing tech, unless it's Oliver Queen, screw-up and drop-out out of 4 colleges, running a corporation like QC.  It wouldn't be unrealistic for Felicity, who probably organized Oliver when he was CEO and brought in contracts to PT when she worked for Ray, to be able to run the company if she hired competent administrators.

 

I haven't been on an island for five years. In fact, I've kept my computer skills pretty good for someone not a millennial.  But I can't hack into people's bank accounts or police cameras or do the many things that the show requires someone to do. The reason Felicity was brought on in the first place is that the audience at SDCC didn't buy that Oliver could hack into Adam Hunt's bank account and transfer the money to the bank accounts of the people he cheated.  I would still find it unrealistic even now, knowing he wasn't on the island the whole time.

 

More than other characters being dumbed down to make Felicity seem smart, I see Felicity often dumbed down to make others seem smart:

 

• apologizing to Ray at the end of 317 when Rays is the one who should have apologized to her for not trusting her and only listening when a man, the very one he was determined to hunt down, told him to trust her..  Having Felicity apologize to Ray, after he repeatedly lied to her and distrusted her.is humiliating her beyond reason.
• Felicity was always did the tech for the team.  But when Laurel wanted to track Nyssa, suddenly she was the one to set it up.
• Felicity couldn't fight, couldn't do the blood tests and couldn't guard the tech from the Clock King in ToD to contrast to Sara being able to do everything, including getting the guy.

 

Felicity can't fight like Oliver, Diggle,Sara, Roy, Thea or Laurel.  All she can do is technical stuff and very basic self-defense (hitting Cooper). so when other people are able to do techie things like she can without the time and the training, it lessens her.

Edited June 14, 2015 by statsgirl

[Ceylon5]

I'll be honest and say that I find myself more annoyed with the supporting characters' flaws and mistakes because Oliver's are almost always called out in the text, and he almost always pays for those mistakes. (Thea in S1 and Laurel in S2 also spent a lot of time making mistakes and paying for them.) The supporting cast--including Felicity--do have flaws like the ones @wonderwall lists above, but they are often flaws that only the viewer points out, not the show itself, if that makes sense.

 

The only time this season I thought the show stood in judgment of Felicity was in 305 when she hurt her mother's feelings (similarly, for the brief moment in 302 when she hurt Oliver's). Anyone have other examples of Felicity acting badly when the show acknowledged it? I mean, there was the scene where she had to apologize to Ray but she wasn't in the wrong there so UGHHHHH I hate that episode so much.

 

Anyway, if I want the show to acknowledge that Laurel can be cold, demanding, entitled, etc., instead of pretending she's a bastion of selflessness and compassion, then I also want the show to acknowledge that cruel streak Felicity possesses, that she isn't as much of a greater-good person as she might appear, that she acts rashly sometimes and can be a little ruthless, that her unwillingness to examine her feelings isn't ideal. And when I say acknowledge, I don't just mean "present." I mean, show how those things hurt other people, how they can be dangerous, how they hinder her personal growth.

 

I like these things about her. They make her interesting, complex, more fleshed-out. But I do find it annoying when they aren't called out in the show, because it makes me question whether the writers see them at all. I'm not sure the writers care about the depth of her character, and I think they way overestimated how invulnerable she was to backlash, so they put her in all sorts of difficult positions without even giving it a second thought.

 

Well, she gets into trouble (on the show) about secrets a lot.  For telling Barry about Oliver (yelling) and Ray & Malcolm about Barry (snark) and for not telling Oliver about Ray or Ray about Oliver (both yelling).  While she wasn't necessarily at fault in most of these instances, the show does give her a hard time about secrets.  Tell and you get crapped on.  Don't tell and you get crapped on.  What to do, what to do?  (Personally, all the secret keeping is probably one of my least favourite aspects of the show.  It just makes everyone look bad.)

 

She also got hella big consequences for making that program in college and letting her dodgy boyfriend get his paws on it.

 

In S2 when she went out rashly on her own on two separate occasions (once when the Count nearly killed her and once in the Clock King episode), the consequences were pretty dire in the first case and got her yelled at by Oliver in the second, so I think she got called out on her rash behaviour.  I don't think she did anything like that in S3.  The only time she went out by herself (in 3x19), there was no expectation that she'd be in danger and everyone knew where she was going.  It was more bad luck than rashness in that instance.  So she did learn from some of her mistakes.

 

I'm not sure I believe that Felicity has ever been primarily about the "greater good".  Felicity has always done things for personal reasons.  She helped Oliver originally because she trusted him, not because she knew what he was doing.  Once she knew what he was doing, she agreed to help only because she wanted to rescue Walter.  And then after that I think she became very focussed on saving Oliver's soul.  Does she like that she gets to help people?  Sure, of course.  But I'm not convinced it's her primary motivating factor.  For Felicity, it's "her" people first, everyone else (including herself) second.

[wingster55]

A lot of people were surprised to find out that Oliver WASN'T on an island for 5 years after the season 2 finale.

 

Didn't Oliver imply strongly that he wasn't on the island back in s1to Diggle? I'm sure I saw people discussing that before the s2 finale. 

 

 

Well, she gets into trouble (on the show) about secrets a lot.  For telling Barry about Oliver (yelling) and Ray & Malcolm about Barry (snark) and for not telling Oliver about Ray or Ray about Oliver (both yelling).  While she wasn't necessarily at fault in most of these instances, the show does give her a hard time about secrets.

The only one that qualifies imo is Ray to her...Barry getting on her case isn't quite the same thing as "getting into trouble" as nothing bad came from those instances. Same with revealing Oliver's secret to Barry. 

[tarotx]

The big thing I see is that fans of the different characters see the criticism of their favorite characters and don't see the other characters criticized even though they are criticized as well. I don't see any of the characters get a pass. Maybe it's different fans doing the critiquing but that's the nature of fandoms. And I do count myself in the easily see the criticism of my favorites. I mean I have Hawkeyes when I see Oliver and Sara Criticized :p

Edited June 14, 2015 by tarotx

[dtissagirl]

The big thing I see is that fans of the different characters see the criticism of their favorite characters and don't see the other character criticized even though they are criticized as well. I don't see any of the characters get a pass. Maybe it's different fans doing the critiquing but that's the nature of fandoms.

I totally agree with this, and sure, people tend to critique their faves less than they critique the characters they don't like. And I actually think this forum fares better than other places in that people here mostly can accept critique of their faves way better than elsewhere.

But the larger volume of hatred towards Felicity post 320 seems to have very little to do with character critique -- it has to do with hating a character for being the way she is. And I think analysing the reasons behind this sudden increase is valid.

Edited June 14, 2015 by dancingnancy

[tarotx]

I get analyzing the increase in criticism. It's when some say criticism isn't happening with the other characters I jumped in on. I personally think Felicity had gotten very little of it until s3. She has had an increase in importance in Oliver's life and people take notice. They are watching her more. The fact that she seems a muse of all 3 major superhero men in this universe can seem a bit eye worthy if you don't look deeper to see she provides different things for all 3.

Remember also that some won't like it that she isn't the comic love interest for any of the 3. And of course fans of characters who aren't the current love interests now will find it easier to see the flaws.

Edited June 14, 2015 by tarotx

[Password]

It was astonishing tbh. The hate that followed episode 20 was really surprising because why THEN? What made things click for people then?

Or maybe because I've avoided comment sections and Facebook I didn't notice the uptick in annoyance toward her in particular? I only noticed because people started vehemently defending her on tumblr post ep 20.

[statsgirl]

I think that's when Olicity became canon.  Up until then there was a lot of dislike about s3, complaints about Ra's but he's from the comics!, complaints about Laurel becoming InstaCanary but the reply was it was always her destiny, complaints about Ray but hey,  he's Brandon Routh and getting the show a lot of media attention.

 

With Olicity finally happening in 320, Felicity was a solid peg to hang the dislike of the season on (because it's rarely the male character who gets the hate). Even people who like Felicity didn't like how she behaved during Raylicity, and that's Felicity/Olicity's fault.

[DrSpaceman10]

I think having a costume actually masks character flaws to an extent, whereas characters who don't have alter egos/wear costumes, like Felicity, tend to be easier targets for criticism. 

 

Based on some recent polls/award nominations, I think Felicity is actually more popular now than she was at this time last year. I also think that Felicity's popularity makes some people angry, because they believe that costumed characters should be the most popular/most important.

[dtissagirl]

I get analyzing the increase in criticism. It's when some say criticism isn't happening with the other characters I jumped in on. I personally think Felicity had gotten very little of it until s3. She has had an increase in importance in Oliver's life and people take notice. They are watching her more. The fact that she seems a muse of all 3 major superhero men in this universe can seem a bit eye worthy if you don't look deeper to see she pervides different things for all 3.

Remember also that some won't like it that she isn't the comic love interest for any of the 3. And of course fans of characters who asaren't the current love interests now will find it easier to see the flaws.

I think we're getting our wires crossed here. Imo critique and hate are two completely different things. In this forum, all characters get critiqued, and that's what's really great about this place. And sure, there's a major dislike in here for some characters -- Laurel, Palmer and Ra's come to mind -- but there's no hatred. No one wishes violence upon them. No one wishes death upon them. When people make sexist remarks against Laurel here, they're called on it.

What seems to have increased in crazy volume post 320 is that kind of hatred towards Felicity. LOTS of folk wishing her dead. Lots of folk putting her down for being a woman in love and in a relationship with the protagonist. Critique is good, I mean, I *really* didn't like a whole lot of Felicity's story in S3. But she's getting hated on, and imo that's completely different from being criticized.