Felicity Smoak: Bitch With Wifi

[apinknightmare]

She seems to me more like Oliver's sister than even Thea does.

What do men do with their sisters where you're from?

Edited May 2, 2015 by apinknightmare

[steeledwithakiss]

I don't think Felicity crying when she shouldn't has been the problem this season. It's the writers piling up bad things after bad things that has. They sarted with Sara's death, then her first love, who she thought had killed himself because of her, tries to kill her and her mother, then Oliver died, then he came back but was still on a mission to kill himself, then Ray was shot saving her, then Thea was mostly dead and Oliver once again went to sacrifice himself, then she had to tell him goodbye forever but then Oliver came back as Angelus.

 

If you compare it to the first two seasons she certainly has way more reasons to be upset. However I'll never hold it against her. If she doesn't cry enough when Oliver dies she's a cold bitch, if she cries too much she's a whining bitch. No to make any comparison but I wasn't of the people who hated Laurel because she cried too much (I never thought she did and I have my own reasons to dislike her character). There are people who are more sensitive than others, so what? Felicity cries when she's upset what a horrible human being.

 

The sister argument? To each their own I guess but I never felt Oliver had that overprotective big brother vibe he has with Thea. He listens to her opinion, tells her his ugly secrets, lets her take part on his dangerous missions. They are equals. The chemistry and heart eyes he makes at her are in the eyes of the beholder so I don't judge people who can't see it.

Edited May 2, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[statsgirl]

I think much of the problem is the amount of crying Felicity has had to do this season.  In Sara, EBR was good enough, not great.  I think she really did a good job in Left Behind as Felicity went through the stages of grief for Oliver.

 

But then, it didn't stop.  She mourned when she lost him to MM, she mourned when he went back to Nanda Parbat to save MM, she mourned when she said goodbye to him in The Fallen, and now she's crying for him again.  It's too much.  I don't know of any actress who could pull still pull me in to feeling sad for her character at this point, and I include Helen Mirren and Tatiana Maslany in that.  After a while, you just end up losing sympathy.

[steeledwithakiss]

I think much of the problem is the amount of crying Felicity has had to do this season.  In Sara, EBR was good enough, not great.  I think she really did a good job in Left Behind as Felicity went through the stages of grief for Oliver.

 

But then, it didn't stop.  She mourned when she lost him to MM, she mourned when he went back to Nanda Parbat to save MM, she mourned when she said goodbye to him in The Fallen, and now she's crying for him again.  It's too much.  I don't know of any actress who could pull still pull me in to feeling sad for her character at this point, and I include Helen Mirren and Tatiana Maslany in that.  After a while, you just end up losing sympathy.

It felt more like angry/frustrated tears there but I get what you mean. It wasn't a clean break between them because no matter what she said she still had hope he's get his head out his colon.

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I don't think Felicity's increased crying this season makes her less of a "bitch with wifi." Fundamentally she's still the same, but life just won't let up on these people. She's upset about things she should rightfully be upset about it's just that they NEVER. STOP. What a drag this season is, I can't wait for it to be over. I'm sure Felicity and the rest of Team Arrow can't wait either, so they can get their 5 month break where life is good before next season picks up and it's shitty again.

[millennium]

What do men do with their sisters where you're from?

 

Stop, you're killing me.   I feel no romantic chemistry between them.   IMHO, Felicity can't sell it as the love interest of an action hero.   It could be EBR's limited range as an actress.  Or maybe the character's too one-dimensional.   Too vanilla, too librarian.   It could be the writing.  Probably all of it.   Nyssa (or the actress who plays her, that is) could pull it off without a problem.  I'm not suggesting that's what I want to see, just comparing.

Edited May 2, 2015 by millennium

[Password]

What does the LI of an action hero do...?

[HighHopes]

Stop, you're killing me. I feel no romantic chemistry between them. IMHO, Felicity can't sell it as the love interest of an action hero. It could be EBR's limited range as an actress. Or maybe the character's too one-dimensional. Too vanilla, too librarian. It could be the writing. Probably all of it. Nyssa (or the actress who plays her, that is) could pull it off without a problem. I'm not suggesting that's what I want to see, just comparing.

To me it sounds like you are saying Felicity/EBR isn't "sexy" enough to be a superhero's love interest. And that because Felicity isn't a physical fighter it works against her as well.

Both of these things are kinda gross to say imo. There's no set "standard" in looks or strength or skills to be a hero's love interest. I for one love that EBR/Felicity isn't the standard Hollywood love interest in looks. I'm so tired of that being what is shown in TV and movies.

Felicity's normalness is what makes her a great love interest for the brooding hero. She pulls him out of it and makes him a better person. We saw what Oliver was like when he was with an equal physical fighter/personality when he was with Sara in season two. And imo, that relationship did his character zero favours.

There is more that I would love to add, but I'm on mobile so now is not the time.

[tessaray]

Stop, you're killing me.   I feel no romantic chemistry between them.   IMHO, Felicity can't sell it as the love interest of an action hero.   It could be EBR's limited range as an actress.  Or maybe the character's too one-dimensional.   Too vanilla, too librarian.   It could be the writing.  Probably all of it.   Nyssa (or the actress who plays her, that is) could pull it off without a problem.  I'm not suggesting that's what I want to see, just comparing.

 

To me Felicity has the "girl next door" vibe, if the girl next door is a genius computer hacker.  I don't think EBR does heavy drama quite as well as she does the lighter, flirt-ier stuff but I also don't think anyone could have handled everything dumped on the character this season and pulled it off.  

 

She has chemistry with SA, which is all I need. 

Edited May 2, 2015 by tessaray

[apinknightmare]

What does the LI of an action hero do...?

 

Felicity stayed in the foundry to make sure she was available to help Quentin cut off power to the earthquake machine during the Undertaking. She's in charge of logistics for Oliver's missions and makes sure he's where he needs to be and that she can find the criminals he's looking for. She put herself up as bait to catch a serial killer. She put herself up as bait AGAIN to get close enough to Slade to inject him with the Mirakuru cure (not to mention she got in contact with STAR Labs to get the Mirakuru cure made).

 

These are clearly not qualities befitting a superhero's love interest! 

 

I'm guessing she's not hot enough maybe. 

Edited May 2, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

What does the LI of an action hero do...?

I don't know what it takes.  Writing?  Directing?  I had a problem with Amy Adams in Man of Steel and she's got enough acting cred to have been able to pull it off.

[millennium]

To me it sounds like you are saying Felicity/EBR isn't "sexy" enough to be a superhero's love interest. And that because Felicity isn't a physical fighter it works against her as well.

Both of these things are kinda gross to say imo. There's no set "standard" in looks or strength or skills to be a hero's love interest. I for one love that EBR/Felicity isn't the standard Hollywood love interest in looks. I'm so tired of that being what is shown in TV and movies.

Felicity's normalness is what makes her a great love interest for the brooding hero. She pulls him out of it and makes him a better person. We saw what Oliver was like when he was with an equal physical fighter/personality when he was with Sara in season two. And imo, that relationship did his character zero favours.

There is more that I would love to add, but I'm on mobile so now is not the time.

 

I'll not say you're wrong, because that is your perception and I respect it.  

 

My perception is different, that's all.   Maybe I prefer "the Hollywood standard."   Maybe the reason there's a standard in the first place is because it's popular.

 

As for Felicity pulling "the brooding hero" out of it, not so much lately.

[millennium]

I don't know what it takes.  Writing?  Directing?  I had a problem with Amy Adams in Man of Steel and she's got enough acting cred to have been able to pull it off.

 

Totally agree.  And it's a pity because the character of Lois Lane is a good example of a superhero love interest (FWIW, I also thought Margot Kidder was terribly miscast as Lois).   Part of what makes Lois and Felicity different is that Lois is not Superman's assistant.   She's not on Team Superman.   She's one of us.  She has her own job, her own objectives.  That's what makes it intriguing when the hero falls for her.    I also always thought Catwoman was a perfect love interest for Batman.   She's an adversary.   There's friction.  Tension.  

 

There's no friction with Felicity.   She's a gal Friday, not a love interest.   Again, in my opinion.

[apinknightmare]

See, I think he has plenty of friction with Felicity. She calls him out when he's being a moron, and I'm thankful for that, because he's a moron 85% of the time. They argue and aren't afraid to do that. And Felicity does have her own job and her own objectives. Is she not the VP of Palmer Technologies? She was only Oliver's assistant at QC because he made it that way, and wouldn't allow her to move back to the job that she wanted. Personally, I'm glad she's on his side and helping him - the very last thing this Oliver needs is another adversary, haha. 

Edited May 2, 2015 by apinknightmare

[apinknightmare]

Double post.

Edited May 2, 2015 by apinknightmare

[steeledwithakiss]

Well I'm for one very thankfull the writers decided to mix it up a little and realized there's not one type of love interest for superheroes. I would not say they are very original because Ironman already did something similar, but it sure is different from a lot of stories that have been done a hundred times before. It's also a good way for people to see different women on TV, different ways to be a hero and on the same TV show because there's just so much diversity in real life, it's nice to see it reflected in fiction once in a while.

[statsgirl]

It may just boil down to what kind of stories each of us personally likes.  Some prefer adversarial love interests, like Batman and Catwoman, some like star-crossed lovers like Romeo and Juliet or Buffy and Angel (in the days when making love would turn him into Angelus), some the man with many women (Don Juan, James T. Kirk) and some like the characters in a partnership like Tony Stark and Pepper Potts.  I'm sure there are lots more.  (I love the "abrasive but end up as true partners" of Much Ado About Nothing which I see in Oliver and Felicity.)  As my mother used to say when my brother and I fought, de gustibus non est disputantum (you can't argue about personal taste).

[steeledwithakiss]

Very true. And some will like different tropes in different fictions. I've liked (and I'm sure I'm certainly not the only one) the destined to be together, the friends turn lovers, the hate turns to love,... You never know what you're going to connect to.

[TrueMyth]

 

There's no friction with Felicity.   She's a gal Friday, not a love interest.   Again, in my opinion.

"His Girl Friday" has a romance between the Girl and the boss.  It's a romantic comedy.

 

I agree that the friction between them rests largely on Felicity calling out Oliver's more bonehead moves and challenging him to be better, find another way, be a hero.  I find it excellent and very romantic.  The scene in Dodger when she locks his door, he gets into her space, and she literally stands up to him when he is at his growly Arrow best, that's the scene when I first started shipping them.

[millennium]

"His Girl Friday" has a romance between the Girl and the boss.  It's a romantic comedy.

 

I agree that the friction between them rests largely on Felicity calling out Oliver's more bonehead moves and challenging him to be better, find another way, be a hero.  I find it excellent and very romantic.  The scene in Dodger when she locks his door, he gets into her space, and she literally stands up to him when he is at his growly Arrow best, that's the scene when I first started shipping them.

 

And yet merriam-webster.com defines "girl Friday" as:

 

a woman who does many different jobs in an office : a female office assistant

 

which is the context in which I used it.

 

The only reason Oliver has "bonehead moves" is because the writers set them up, apparently so Felicity can swat them down.   It makes me think of Oliver as a more sophisticated version of the cliche stupid husband in TV commercials who needs a woman to show him the proper way of doing things.

[apinknightmare]

 

And yet merriam-webster.com defines "girl Friday" as:

 

a woman who does many different jobs in an office : a female office assistant

 

which is the context in which I used it.

 

The only reason Oliver has "bonehead moves" is because the writers set them up, apparently so Felicity can swat them down.   It makes me think of Oliver as a more sophisticated version of the cliche stupid husband in TV commercials who needs a woman to show him the proper way of doing things.

 

Felicity isn't an office assistant though - unless you're belittling the work she does with Team Arrow as nothing more than secretarial? 

 

Diggle also swats Oliver's bonehead moves down as well - guess they must be polyamorous. 

[TrueMyth]

Connotation vs. denotation then.  My point was that probably the most popular example of a Girl Friday has romantic connotations, therefore the idea of a girl Friday type and a romantic interest are not mutually exclusive in the general context, though they may be for individual appeal.

 

I think Oliver's choices have been consistently written as sometime boneheadish to the extent that Felicity is not the only character who calls him on them, making it a character trait instead of an inorganic manipulation on the part of the writers.  Diggle has talked him down more frequently than Felicity this season.  Due to this consistency I don't see the confrontations as authorial manipulation any more than everything is technically a "set-up" by the writers, because that's how stories happen.

[millennium]

Felicity isn't an office assistant though - unless you're belittling the work she does with Team Arrow as nothing more than secretarial? 

 

 

Felicity serves Oliver in a support capacity (and please don't nitpick the word "serves").   She's always there when he needs her.  She runs the home office/headquarters while everyone else is out in the field.   She coordinates their movements and keeps them supplied with timely, accurate information.   She is vital and irreplaceable in this position.

 

In this regard, she's his Girl Friday.   

 

Please note that a woman writer at tvline.com also referred to Felicity as Oliver's "Girl Friday" in a recent article:

 

Those are all the ways that Oliver has declared his feelings for Felicity on this season of Arrow. But thus far, his Girl Friday has been pretty mum about where her heart lies when it comes to her partner. Rest assured that will all change when the presumed dead Oliver makes his way back home to Starling City.

http://tvline.com/2015/01/12/arrow-season-3-spoilers-felicity-feelings-for-oliver/

[apinknightmare]

Felicity serves Oliver in a support capacity (and please don't nitpick the word "serves").   She's always there when he needs her.  She runs the home office/headquarters while everyone else is out in the field.   She coordinates their movements and keeps them supplied with timely, accurate information.   She is vital and irreplaceable in this position.

 

Uh, I'll nitpick whatever I please. She does not serve him - Oliver has called Felicity his partner, in response to her referring to herself as his "employee." If Oliver himself elevates her beyond mere support services, what exactly is the argument (regardless of what a woman writer called her)?

Edited May 3, 2015 by apinknightmare

[jay741982]

Felicity serves Oliver in a support capacity (and please don't nitpick the word "serves").   She's always there when he needs her.  She runs the home office/headquarters while everyone else is out in the field.   She coordinates their movements and keeps them supplied with timely, accurate information.   She is vital and irreplaceable in this position.

 

In this regard, she's his Girl Friday.   

 

Please note that a woman writer at tvline.com also referred to Felicity as Oliver's "Girl Friday" in a recent article:

The writer doesn't watch the show then cause it's obvious Felicity loves Oliver. Did she not watch Two weeks ago when she said she did and they had sex. No friction with Felicity? Oh please Felicitys had friction with him plenty of times. A very viable love interest

[HighHopes]

My perception is different, that's all.   Maybe I prefer "the Hollywood standard."   Maybe the reason there's a standard in the first place is because it's popular.

 

 

There is a reason for the hollywood standard, and it's not a good one. It's not because it's "popular" it's because for centuries media and pop culture have been telling women that they can only look a certain way. Going into it and keeping it short and on topic would be impossible, but I would suggest you google it as it is actually very interesting. And it's not just with love interests and superheroes. Take a look at the recasting of Mae Whitman in the sequel to Independence Day. Mae Whitman is not the typical female lead, but she can hold her own is tv shows and movies. But they made the decision to recast her with the more hollywood standard/typical female lead. They didn't even have Mae Whitman on the short list of actresses for the role, even though it was original her's with the original movie. 

 

Totally agree.  And it's a pity because the character of Lois Lane is a good example of a superhero love interest (FWIW, I also thought Margot Kidder was terribly miscast as Lois).   Part of what makes Lois and Felicity different is that Lois is not Superman's assistant.   She's not on Team Superman.   She's one of us.  She has her own job, her own objectives.  That's what makes it intriguing when the hero falls for her.    I also always thought Catwoman was a perfect love interest for Batman.   She's an adversary.   There's friction.  Tension.  

For me, that's what I love about Oliver and Felicity. They are complete equals. They fight crime together, they trust each other, they rely on each other. They are partners in fighting crime and they are partners in the romantic way too. And while I do wish Felicity had something going on in her life besides Oliver, what worked (and still does) against Laurel and Oliver is that Laurel wasn't a part of Oliver's life/secret. There wasn't that trust there or that feeling that they need the other person. 

 

Oliver fell for Felicity because she was her own person who challenged him. She called him on his lies from the words "spilled a latte on my computer". And while it wasn't outright calling him on it, it was obvious that she didn't believe him. And it hasn't stopped since. She still calls him out and she still challenges him. She told him that she didn't agree with his decision to work with Malcolm. 

 

 

The only reason Oliver has "bonehead moves" is because the writers set them up, apparently so Felicity can swat them down.   It makes me think of Oliver as a more sophisticated version of the cliche stupid husband in TV commercials who needs a woman to show him the proper way of doing things.

 

Oliver has been making boneheaded moves since the flashbacks. He brought his girlfriend's sister on a trip with him so he could bang her. He hasn't suddenly started making them so Felicity can swat them down. While Felicity has helped Oliver grow, he's helped her too. In her own words he "made her realize that she could be more than just an IT girl". But it's not just Felicity who calls Oliver on his crap, Roy and Diggle have too. 

Edited May 3, 2015 by HighHopes

[catrox14]

I'm flummoxed and I bristle at this idea that Felicity is thought of as a Girl Friday in any regard by reviewers or fans.

 

Felicity graduated from MIT with degrees in Computer Science. She is a genius. She runs Oliver's tech and tells them what they need to know when they are in the field.  The ONLY reason IMO she is called a Gal Friday is when he moved her into the offices under the guise  of being his PA to hide their Arrow activities. But that didn't last long because she had to take a job at Not!Best Buy as computer tech consultant when all that fell apart. And then she became the VP of IT at Palmer Industries and still was Oliver's Arrow partner along with Diggle until it all fell apart. She was only ever a "subordinate" to Oliver for like a hot minute when he asked her to join Team Arrow and another hot minute as his PA. She was his Arrow partner far longer than she was his subordinate or love interest. 

 

I really have no idea how this notion of "Gal Friday" applies to Felicity whatsoever.

Edited May 3, 2015 by catrox14

[millennium]

Uh, I'll nitpick whatever I please. She does not serve him - Oliver has called Felicity his partner, in response to her referring to herself as his "employee." If Oliver himself elevates her beyond mere support services, what exactly is the argument (regardless of what a woman writer called her)?

 

That Oliver deems Felicity a partner doesn't mean that audience members can't still regard her role as support if that's how they see it.   Oliver and Felicity are fictional characters.  What we discuss in these forums are our perceptions/opinions of these characters and their storylines, so anything goes.   Or so I thought.

Edited May 3, 2015 by millennium

[apinknightmare]

That Oliver deems Felicity a partner doesn't mean that audience members can't still regard her role as support if that's how they see it.   Oliver and Felicity are fictional characters.  What we discuss in these forums are our perceptions/opinions of these characters and their storylines, so anything goes.   Or so I thought.

 

Is that...is that not what we were doing? You were arguing your perception and I was arguing mine? Was being the operative word because you're not going to change my opinion and I'm not going to change yours, so it's time for me to step back from this one. It was fun though. Thanks for pointing out that they're fictional characters!

[millennium]

I sense sarcasm.

[apinknightmare]

Just the last sentence.

[olicityfan25]

Lmfao at this. Felicity is the reason why they can take down the bad guys so fast. That is not just a girl Friday. Also she is a genius and I suspect we will know more because even Harrison Wells knows his stuff about her. So obviously she's a force to be reckoned with.

[TanyaKay]

I think the show has established that Team Arrow could operate without Diggle when he was missing from the Rescue Walter mission in 2x21 - handled extremely well by Oliver and Felicity (Felicity's first solo mission when she infiltrated the underground casino). The show has tried to show that a rag tag Team could work (barely) with out Oliver multiple times this season, but the writers and producers never even attempted to show that the team can function without Felicity. In 3x03, Diggle and Laurel called her separately during her office hours at Palmer Tech to seek her help to do their vigilante work. Oliver expressed his anger/frustration when Felicity was visiting Barry in Central City in 2x10 and was at work dinner with Ray Palmer in 3x07 and she had to cut them both short and come back to help Team Arrow catch the bad guy/girl of the week.

Felicity Smoak is irreplaceable in Team Arrow as voiced by both Diggle & Oliver (his exact words were ... "we need Felicity here" in both the aforementioned episodes). Anyone who thinks she is a supporting character in Team Arrow or serves the big almighty boss Oliver Queen needs to rewatch every Team Arrow interaction from season 1 to the last episode aired.

Heck, at this point in the show, she probably has more money in her back account than Oliver Queen. If anyone is a prized catch, it is Felicity Smoak, not Oliver Queen.

Edited May 3, 2015 by TanyaKay

[tessaray]

That Oliver deems Felicity a partner doesn't mean that audience members can't still regard her role as support if that's how they see it.   Oliver and Felicity are fictional characters.  What we discuss in these forums are our perceptions/opinions of these characters and their storylines, so anything goes.   Or so I thought.

 

I go by what I see on screen and what I see on screen is that Felicity functions both as love interest and yes, logistical "support" for TA - but only because she wants to save the city using her unique talents.  Just because she doesn't go out with a mask and physically fight bad guys doesn't mean she can't hurt you.  (Bitch with wifi? Not to mention Felicity in her hack-tivist days, long before Oliver Queen.)

 

I think what differentiates a partnership and an unequal association (just "support") is how effective they are alone and together.  Alone, they both can seriously hurt bad guys.  Together they are a force to be reckoned with.  (And Diggle makes them a team to be reckoned with.)

Edited May 3, 2015 by tessaray

[tessaray]

Totally agree.  And it's a pity because the character of Lois Lane is a good example of a superhero love interest (FWIW, I also thought Margot Kidder was terribly miscast as Lois).   Part of what makes Lois and Felicity different is that Lois is not Superman's assistant.   She's not on Team Superman.   She's one of us.  She has her own job, her own objectives.  That's what makes it intriguing when the hero falls for her.    I also always thought Catwoman was a perfect love interest for Batman.   She's an adversary.   There's friction.  Tension.  

 

There's no friction with Felicity.   She's a gal Friday, not a love interest.   Again, in my opinion.

 

This confuses me a little.  Lois and Clark Kent are colleagues.  They didn't meet on match.com.  Lois and Superman kind of work together in crisis situations.  (Well, she calls for help and he obliges by saving the day...) How is that better than O/F meeting at work and eventually fighting crime together on Arrow?  

[millennium]

I don't know where Lois is at these days because it's been a long time since I picked up a Superman comic (pre-Crisis, pre "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?"), but in my frame of reference Lois never knew Superman's identity.   She was interested in discovering Supes' true identity; he was determined to keep it from her.   That right there kept them at odds, regardless of how they felt about one another.   It added dramatic tension and mystery.   Romance, even.   I'm not saying it's better than Oliver and Felicity, but it's different.   And maybe that's why I sense no spark between Oliver and Felicity.   Maybe they're already too close on a day to day basis.

 

I think statsgirl said it best above, that we all have different ideas of what characters' relationships should be like.  Felicity just doesn't work for me.

[fantique]

Ok peeps, this is a long one and full of meandering thoughts. Sorry about it, but only just a little.

I think much of the problem is the amount of crying Felicity has had to do this season.  In Sara, EBR was good enough, not great.  I think she really did a good job in Left Behind as Felicity went through the stages of grief for Oliver.

 

But then, it didn't stop.  She mourned when she lost him to MM, she mourned when he went back to Nanda Parbat to save MM, she mourned when she said goodbye to him in The Fallen, and now she's crying for him again.  It's too much.  I don't know of any actress who could pull still pull me in to feeling sad for her character at this point, and I include Helen Mirren and Tatiana Maslany in that.  After a while, you just end up losing sympathy.

I have a good example of a really good actress that could not live on the audience's good will anymore: Nina Dobrev. Her character on TVD is a shitty person, in a shitty relationship and they have their once a season tearful separation. After a while, regardless of how amazing her performance is, it stopped tugging at my heartstrings because the cause for her grief is not freaking necessary. Sara's death and Oliver's "Arrow all the time" shit? Not necessary. All the stupidity that Oliver has displayed in the second half? Not necessary!!!! That LOA plot is super convoluted and ridiculous with twists that are just for the sake of the gasp without any respect for the integrity of the characters. Ra's al Ghul is no longer a threat because he's sparing every Tom, Dick and Harry as well as being a cupid. Yes, I can rationalise the strategic advantages but it makes for a super inconsistent characterisation and the feared villain is no longer taken seriously. Which means that the emotional rollercoaster that is a result of the convoluted storylines is not worth it. And, by extension, the character that shows the most effect from said emotional rollercoaster is seen as feeble and inconsistent since the cause for the grief at the end of the day isn't taken seriously.

 

Stop, you're killing me.   I feel no romantic chemistry between them.   IMHO, Felicity can't sell it as the love interest of an action hero.   It could be EBR's limited range as an actress.  Or maybe the character's too one-dimensional.   Too vanilla, too librarian.   It could be the writing.  Probably all of it.   Nyssa (or the actress who plays her, that is) could pull it off without a problem.  I'm not suggesting that's what I want to see, just comparing.

I will preface by saying I'm not that much of a superhero fan, I regarded that Avengers movie with a freezing indifference. I don't know what people want for their romances in those stories. But someone talked about friction and tension. The fact that within the first few days of Felicity in the lair, she locked him in and would not back down and actually got him to apologise pretty much exemplifies how she is not a doormat and stands up to him plenty. And all she's done this season is call Oliver an idiot. It's just that now, his decision were so idiotic that everyone else jumped in as well which makes it stand out less but there has been plenty of tension between these two this season. I might be biased because I love this character and would only be ok with any pairing she's a part of if it doesn't undermine her character ( coughRaylicitycough... Rant: Seriously, they actually had her say that Ray's behaviour is not as creepy as it sounds in the Flash episode. Seriously. /Rant) but my reasons why I think the pairing works are the reasons why others don't.

No, she's not a kick ass fighter but they wouldn't be half as efficient without her. She is actually a fixture in the team, her place in it isn't just that she's the girl Oliver loves right now. Which means that their relationship would be equal because she doesn't need him to matter. In fact this season has proved she is much more functional without him than he is without her. HE confessed first, she drew lines when she realised that him loving her was not enough. To me, the fact that she reacted that way to the obstacles means that if they have a real relationship, it will be because she actually feels it makes sense and is positive. I am sick and tired of these damn dysfunctional relationships where the two people hate each other and after they learn to tolerate each other, they still act shitty. I'm tired of seeing good individuals turn into a couple of whiny assholes crying woe is me in a relationship that makes them miserable but apparently, good sex is enough to sustain. If at least they were sold as that, but no, shows try to make believe that they're good for each other when all I see is misery and it bores the fuck out of me when they have problems because I don't get why there needs to be effort to salvage a shitty relationship. I simply don't care when they try to fix things and wish for more screen time on another SL.

Their sex scene made me happy because that was what people in love look like. Not two people who only stay together for some god forsaken reason and can only get along when they have sex. I need one freaking relationship on TV that is based on mutual respect and understanding with both people being equals. As long as that's what I think this relationship is, I am more than OK with Olicity and the moment that is not the case, I will be the first to hate it. Also, in terms of the future, a no drama relationship means we can focus on the fun stuff, like team dynamics and villains and all the good stuff. Ideally (if Trollenheim and Mericle learn how to write a healthy relationship which they seem to find a foreign concept on TV), we go back to the fun format of VotW with all the awesome stunt work and the great team moments except that Oliver is less of a grouch. If/when they get together, it doesn't even need to be addressed. I don't like when romance is a big focus so I think it would be great to just have them together and get on with the crime fighting. Anyone who wants Oliver to get closer to being the GA that has that sarcastic wit and is not so much of a downer should be happy to have Olicity, because all the other options have angst written all over them.

 

I will also rant about something else, people make statements about Olicity but really there haven't been that many scenes this season. Episodes 1,5,9 and 20 are the episodes where actual stuff about their relationship was on the table. They haven't been together and saying "this why their relationship doesn't work" when they haven't even started one is a little... I can understand why people don't see the appeal but honestly the statements that say that Olicity ruined the show when this season was more about BC and ATOM and then LOA than anything is just stupid. Olicity could ruin the show if they were actually together or had actions totally driven by their feelings towards each other. Nothing Oliver has done this season is because he loves Felicity. NOTHING. His motivations have been Sara's death, Thea and now everyone in SC. Saying the pairing ruined the show is simply factually incorrect. If people are so anti-Felicity as a love interest that they can't stand Oliver loving her, well... Nothing can be done about that, can it? 

 

Felicity Smoak is beautiful. She's a freaking genius. She stands her ground. She only needs an internet connection to destroy a person's life and she uses her powers for good. She's an actually good person. If that is not a character that deserves a man's attention and love in fans' eyes, then I don't know what to say. I don't even know how to think about the fact that people are saying NYSSA, as in gay, hates Oliver's guts but hey at least she can fight, Nyssa is a love interest. I mean... I genuinely don't know what to say. But sure that sounds great, both of Sara's exes should totally get together, because apparently the sister swapping wasn't creepy enough. The flowchart of the relationships has not been incestuous enough.

Sorry if people like relationships that make zero sense when they start thinking about them and turn both individuals into gigantic assholes. The show might adhere to their views or not but all I can hope is that my favourite character survives that if they go the tortured love route because I will not be pleased.

 

I'm flummoxed and I bristle at this idea that Felicity is thought of as a Girl Friday in any regard by reviewers or fans.

Well when the writers have her switch from being part of the TA full time to becoming Ray Palmer's Pepper Potts and in her down time she goes over to CC to be their team Yoda, of course people who were not that invested in her character or don't see her as anything other than the geeky, crush in the corner girl will register her as the support. 85% of her story this season has been about being support to one person or another and bearing 90% of the emotional weight of the show when the person she's supporting is allowed to go out and beat people up. The writers done fucked up. I am so pissed that they made this character who has enough self respect to walk away from a toxic situation, a prop to other people's storyline.

Someone on the Arrow after show said that they prefer Raylicity because they don't feel like Felicity is a priority for Oliver. Not only do I believe that Felicity is not ray's priority either (nor should she necessarily be), I've made my feelings about Ray Palmer extremely clear on multiple occasions and my repulsion for Raylicity knows no bounds but it definitely cleared up something for me. Maybe that's why people have a problem seeing her a love interest because Oliver is not constantly being her white knight or making stupid decisions that are all about his one twu wuv. Well, welcome to real responsible life people, being in love with someone doesn't mean you're an idiot who doesn't give a shit about your family or responsibilities anymore. There are so many male leads in a relationship that I have zero respect for because they would sell their grandma for their LI's supposedly golden vagina that I am more than ok with Oliver prioritising his little sister and the fate of an entire city over getting with Felicity. It's what makes me actually like the character and I suspect it's what Felicity loves about him. And we've come full circle back to my argument that Felicity/Olicity did not ruin season 3. I know what it looks like when a character/relationship ruins a show (coughCFDcough*), and this ain't it.

 

I will end this with a PSA: People, two sexy people who look like they hate each other 75% of the time does not a (even slightly decent) relationship make. Just because X is in love with Y does not give them a pass for douchebag behaviour and Y should totally tell them off because a healthy, happy and equal relationship is a good thing. Being in love does not mean becoming an egotistical, self centred moron and suddenly forgetting who you are and what you stand for, that's obsession and immaturity.

I am sorry this was long but I am bored, had too much coffee and I have feeeeeelings, that may or may not be caused by external shit. 

 

*My fellow sleepyheads know my pain.

Edited May 3, 2015 by fantique

[wonderwall]

I am sorry this was long but I am bored, had too much coffee and I have feeeeeelings, that may or may not be caused by external shit. 

 

*My fellow sleepyheads know my pain.

 

This post made me want to kiss you. Which is weird. But there it is. No but seriously, wonderful post! I hope that next season they won't use Felicity as a prop for other characters, I sincerely do. I think we will because of the introduction of Felicity's father (of which I hope will be one of the seasons main baddies), but I don't want to be presumptuous. But yeah, the introduction of Felicity's father can open up a wealth of story opportunities to explore Felicity's character and give her more depth.

 

Thank you so much for your post, if I could upvote it a thousand times I would .

[NumberCruncher]

I wish you could have witnessed the huge standing ovation I gave your post, @fantique.  That was damn near perfection.

[Ang]

Yeah, I don't think Felicity's increased crying this season makes her less of a "bitch with wifi." Fundamentally she's still the same, but life just won't let up on these people. She's upset about things she should rightfully be upset about it's just that they NEVER. STOP. What a drag this season is, I can't wait for it to be over. I'm sure Felicity and the rest of Team Arrow can't wait either, so they can get their 5 month break where life is good before next season picks up and it's shitty again.

Jumping in before I finish reading the thread, sorry. This gets at the source of the problem for me. She's gone through a ton of really upsetting circumstances this season, and yeah, tears are a legitimate outlet. The real problem, I think, isn't the acting, although sure, maybe some actors could have found a way to show more nuance. The real problem is that the writers are hitting the same emotional beats over and over again without giving us sufficient progression, contrast, or growth for it to be meaningful for the audience at large. Without a strong emotional connection to the character, they're not giving us enough to actually make us feel for/with her, at least not enough to hold through scene after scene of breakdowns.

Felicity's justifiably upset, WE GET IT. And...what? DO SOMETHING with it already. Show how she copes, or how she changes, or the subtle differences between Oliver being just dead and Oliver being soulless (which, whatever, don't even get me started on how quickly TA jumped the gun on that considering how little information they had compared to the audience).

This is why 3x21 was hard for me. I just wanted to see some variety in their responses to the situation. I wanted to see Felicity being Felicity when confronted with Oliver. Like, maybe when she finally sees Oliver she gets a little sassy with him, all, "hey babe, nice to see you. Not sure about the haircut, or the black, or, you know, kidnapping Lyla and leaving Sara abandoned. Not your best move." Just...something to add a little life and variety beyond "this isn't who you are" from both F and D. (At least Thea took a different approach....)

[Password]

Aww now I want to hear her call Oliver "babe".

[kismet]

@fantique, thank you!! There is only one like button, but I wanted to give you so many more. :)

[jay741982]

Aww now I want to hear her call Oliver "babe".

Ha me too how about Oliver calling her "babe"?

[Chaser]

http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/post/118239330776/where-do-you-think-the-writers-went-wrong-with#tumblr_notes

 

Response is perfect.

[steeledwithakiss]

She's right: Felicity being a supporting character to RP has been one of the most frustrating thing about s3. Also if you need to change someone / make them act out of character for another character there's something wrong to begin with. I'm not sure I agree about how two similar persons can't work in a romantic setting, especially funny/light characters. Felicity works very well with Barry. Everytime she interacts with him she's still Felicity IMO and that's the reason it doesn't rub me the wrong way.

Edited May 6, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[tv echo]

Just my opinion...

 

In Defense of Felicity's Tears

 

If someone you love dies, do you: (A) cry, (B) remain stoic and suffer in silence, or (C ) act happy and make quippy jokes?  If you answer 'A', you're Felicity.  If you answer 'B, you're Oliver or Diggle.  If you answer 'C', you're no one I recognize.

 

Last season, IIRC, the only time Felicity cried was when Moira died.  When she told Diggle that she didn't know why she was crying since she didn't even like Moira, Diggle said that she was crying for Oliver.  That's who Felicity is - she's empathetic and wears her emotions on her sleeve.  I don't recall tons of people complaining about her crying then.

 

This season the losses have affected Felicity more directly:

 

• Sara dies - If Felicity cried when Moira (the mother of someone she cares about) died, then of course, she'd cry when her own friend dies.

 

• Oliver dies (she believes) - Felicity loves Oliver. Maybe at that time, she still hadn't acknowledged to herself that she was in love with him, but he was arguably her closest friend.

 

• 'Oliver Queen' dies when he becomes Al Sah-him (she believes) - At this point, Felicity knows that she's in love in Oliver, they've acknowledged their feelings for each other, and they've slept together.  She also knows that he has struggled with his humanity for three years.  So even though he's alive physically, he's lost the real battle for his soul (she believes).

 

If these kinds of losses aren't worth crying for, then what is?  Maybe people would've preferred that Felicity remain stoic and suffer in silence.  That's not her.  She is openly caring, loving, and soft-hearted when it comes to those she cares about.  For her not to cry would be OOC.  Maybe she was supposed to grieve quickly and then get over it.  But grief takes a long time to overcome, so what if she sheds a few residual tears in subsequent episodes.  She still stays strong in her grief.  She continues to do her job for Team Arrow.  She continues to be a friend.  She tries to move on.  In addition, in between all those major losses, other stuff happens that further confuse, frustrate and throw her for a loop, so it's no surprise that her emotions remain close to the surface.  All of these things happen within the space of 7-8 months.

 

So if you want to blame anyone for Felicity's tears this season, don't blame Felicity.  Blame the EPs for creating a season with so much to cry about.

Edited May 7, 2015 by tv echo

[NumberCruncher]

So if you want to blame anyone for Felicity's tears this season, don't blame Felicity.  Blame the EPs for creating a season with so much to cry about.

I don't blame the character and I blame the shitty writing. It's not the fact that she cries, but the sheer number of times she's been forced to. They've taken the only solidly optimistic character on an incredibly dark show and made her the most depressing. The mere fact that viewers are singling out Felicity Smoak of all people for being in a perpetual state of tears says a lot about what a misstep they made here. I certainly don't expect her to be sunshine and rainbows all the time, but even I'm exhausted watching the garbage she's had dumped on her this season.

[olicityfan25]

Why is she the one who is the most depressing? I don't see it like that at all. Oliver is the most depressing character right now. lol

[NumberCruncher]

Why is she the one who is the most depressing? I don't see it like that at all. Oliver is the most depressing character right now. lol

I think you answered your own question with the "right now". I'm talking about the entire season. Look at when Sara died and who took it the hardest outside of Laurel...Felicity. Then Felicity got the added joy of repeatedly getting pushed away by Oliver, going through thinking him dead, and believing he willingly left her (and all of her friends) to die while running off to marry another woman. Oliver has been stoic through a lot of those events, but aside from what happened with Thea, we've not been subjected to all that many breakdown scenes with him this season. Oliver has never been a happy character so I generally expect him to be Mr. Grumpy Pants the vast majority of the time. It feels like Felicity has been in utter misery through most of S3 because her character is not naturally like that, so yeah--it comes off as very depressing to me. YMMV.

[tv echo]

bigtimerushx asked:

I love how this season is going so far! It's plainly obvious you can't please everyone. I don't really understand the problem with Felicity she's still the same Felicity I know and love. Don't really understand what people expect from a woman who lost her best friend and love of her life to the LOA and don't understand just how evil Ra's is but keep doing what you're doing. Don't let the haters bring you down.

I shall not!  Thanks for watching!

ladychaos83 asked:

Despite what most of the posts you are responding to. The majority of the fandom still loves Olicity and Felicity. Felicity's Bantor is still one of my favorite parts of this show and it's not your fault people are forgetting that Felicity is more than just plastic comic relief with no feelings.

I agree!

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited May 8, 2015 by tv echo