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Felicity Smoak: Bitch With Wifi

Lisin

By Lisin
in Characters of Arrow

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fantique
fantique

Ok peeps, this is a long one and full of meandering thoughts. Sorry about it, but only just a little. I have a good example of a really good actress that could not live on the audience's good will a

Ceylon5
Ceylon5

From Wikipedia (on characterisation):     Just because we're not directly told what to think about someone, it doesn't mean that we're not being given any characterisation.  In real life, we get t

KenyaJ
KenyaJ

I agree that it's bad pacing, but it's not that difficult for me to connect the dots and see how Felicity got from point A to point B. For almost two years, she's pretty much devoted her life to Olive

statsgirl

statsgirl

And have you seen Brandon Routh? He does look like a man compared to Grant Gustin, with nothing against GG but he does have a baby face. I know how he feels, up until a few years ago I was getting carded for Rated R movies (I'm 31). 

Congratulations, Sakura.  You and Ming-Na Wen.

 

I hope GG takes it as a joke, because one of the reasons he was hired to be Barry Allen was because he didn't look hunky and chiseled like SA, and Brandon Routh was hired because he did.  (Acting ability aside, of course.)

 

EBR has on-screen charm.  (Probably real life charm but I've never met her.)  The EPs use it to introduce new characters they hope will take off on their own.  Fans acknowledge it writing by fanfic about Felicity.  (That's all I wanted to say about fanfic and it's more about EBR herself than the fic so I put it here.)

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Tangerine

Tangerine

(edited)

Congratulations, Sakura. You and Ming-Na Wen.

I hope GG takes it as a joke, because one of the reasons he was hired to be Barry Allen was because he didn't look hunky and chiseled like SA, and Brandon Routh was hired because he did. (Acting ability aside, of course.)

EBR has on-screen charm. (Probably real life charm but I've never met her.) The EPs use it to introduce new characters they hope will take off on their own. Fans acknowledge it writing by fanfic about Felicity. (That's all I wanted to say about fanfic and it's more about EBR herself than the fic so I put it here.)

Asian genes for the win!! (I get mistaken for a high school student constantly and I graduated 10 years ago.)

I thought she was awkwardly charming and GG didn't seem offended really. I mean, like she said she works with those guys everyday so I get the feeling that's hardly the worst thing she's ever said about them haha. I mean, I chirp my coworkers all the time, it's nothing personal.

Edited by Tangerine
Sakura12

Sakura12

Asian genes for the win!! (I get mistaken for a high school student constantly and I graduated 10 years ago.)

I thought she was awkwardly charming and GG didn't seem offended really. I mean, like she said she works with those guys everyday so I get the feeling that's hardly the worst thing she's ever said about them haha. I mean, I chirp my coworkers all the time, it's nothing personal.

 

Yep, it's in the Asian contract that we look at least 10 years younger than our real age. I can finally order a drink without them having to show my ID to a manager thinking it's a fake. 

 

There was nothing wrong with what she said, she didn't even realize that she said anything that would make GG feel bad. Plus you can tell he took it as a joke with is "Hey!" "Thanks, Emily" expression. I thought it was adorable that she kept going with it digging herself deeper in that hole with the Oliver's...intelligence part. 

foreverevolving

foreverevolving

Sadly true.

Still carded at...everywhere.

yep! i'm 28 and being non american living in the US it was so hard for me when i first moved here three years ago to get carded for drinks when back home our minimum age is 18.. i still occasionally get carded- but it also depends on the company i'm with and what i'm wearing.

tv echo

tv echo

I remember watching an earlier interview with EBR (on Youtube) when she said that she found herself taking on more characteristics of Felicity the longer she played her.  You have to remember she's only 23 and relatively new to acting and stardom.  Felicity is older than EBR.  Brandon Routh is 34, SA is 33, and GG is 24.  So to EBR, BR would seem like a man while GG seems like a boy her age.

KenyaJ

KenyaJ

I loved Stephen's laugh when Emily said "We have Barry's intellect and Oliver's ... intellect." LMAO. 

 

And on another note, it was sweet in his Nerd HQ interview the way he seemed so proud that Emily was the first guest star he got to take under his wing when he had his own show. He must be extra proud, considering the way she and Felicity have completely blown up in the fandom.

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SmallScreenDiva

SmallScreenDiva

I laughed at Emily's "He is a man" line in that panel, and laughed even harder at Grant's reaction. Stephen didn't really react, but I'm thinking that's because he didn't take it even as an unintentional shot at his character because, well, Oliver IS a man while with Barry, there's that running gag about him looking like he just got out of high school. (Remember in "The Scientist" Oliver greets him "And do your parents know you're here" when he shows up at the QC division.) I think GG just kinda played that up. It was all in good fun, I thought ;)

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TwistedandBored

TwistedandBored

Technically that was an unintentional shot at both Grant and Stephen..Grant is the only who reacted to it humorously. 

The age thing..maybe, I'm not much older than her though (if that counts for anything)..and it's not her first SDCC or con in general. 

 

I think an actor/actress can go to 100 Comic-Con panels and still have slip ups every now and then. It is a human nature and I don't think anyone holds that against EBR. Everyone took it well. No ones feelings was hurt. 

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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

I'm still laughing every time I remember the "we have Barry's intellect and Oliver's ... intellect" line, so she sure as hell charmed me. [Plus, Amell's reaction was the best.] I feel like this every time I watch EBR in an interview or panel, to be honest. She's so genuine in her love for Felicity, and she also seems completely aware of how crazy it is that she went from one episode guest spot to fan favorite. I think it makes her relatable, almost as much as Felicity is easy to relate to.

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wonderwall

wonderwall

I've been trolling IMDB (wow that place is insane), and I found a few reasons why people stopped liking Felicity in season 2 or just didn't like her at all: 

 

 

 

- Melodramatic. A good example of this is the 2nd episode of the season where she nearly bit Ollie's head off about promoting her (that bastard) and because he wasn't Dr Fate and he couldn't figure out Dig broke up with Carly. It was like she had a permanent case of PMS.

- Rude: The way she trashed Moira at her funeral takes the cake. How fans could still defend her after that is beyond me.

- Meddlesome: She dug into Moira's past without authorization, found out about Thea's parentage and then ratted Moira out to Oliver.

- Petulant: The way she was jealous of Sara in Time of Death.

Aside from all these, I also had an issue with how they increased her role and importance, just because the character had positive reviews in season 1. She was written as an equal member of team Arrow, Diggle was marginalized for her sake and we reached the point where she constantly gave Oliver pep talks (as if he needed her to tell him what was right). I won't even get into the whole Olicity fan service crap we were subjected to.

 

Sometimes I feel like people are grasping at straws in order to hate Felicity. Some of these are even plain wrong. 

 

Anyways, this thread is interesting (nanrad is my hero. Just sayin'): http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2193021/board/thread/231703694?p=1 (I suggest to put the option on nest instead of thread so you can unhide all the comments)

dtissagirl

dtissagirl

I actually think Felicity is plenty melodramatic. And I like that she can be exuberant in discussions, because it makes a really good contrast with Oliver and Diggle being so aloof and collected and controlled all the freaking time.

What I don't think is that she was being dramatic for nothing. It made perfect sense that she was furious at Oliver for making her his EA. And she was right to call him on it for never asking Diggle about what happened in the 5 months Oliver was off manpaining. Being annoyed by the TONE she used when doing it is probably valid criticism, if you don't like this kind of character, but her actions made perfect sense within the storyline.

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AnalyzeAndCritique

AnalyzeAndCritique

My boss is always joking about transitioning me out of my position and into another with a different boss. It'd be along the same lines as what I do now, but he teases me about it because he knows I'd probably have some choice things to say to him. As it is I just say to him things like "I've always wondered what it would be like to have a boss I like." It's a joke between us, but if he changed my position without talking to me there might be "loud voices." 

 

Felicity also mentioned Oliver's singular focus on himself in the same convo (if I remember correctly). She was making a point. Oliver was self-serving and he needed to throw his feelers outside of himself. Her point was in context with both situations. 

 

There is no one more melodramatic than Laurel. I dare say those who strongly dislike Felicity are Laurel fans who feel they are getting the shaft. Let me say a good percentage of them are more than likely Laurel fans. I can understand their anger/frustration/annoyance. If I was a Laurel fan, I'd be all up in the grill of those I thought were ruining her character. Nothing is worse for a character than your sister you believe died six years ago comes back to life and you are mad at her. Laurel's crap story lines aren't because of Felicity. The entire backstory for Laurel, Oliver, and Sara was building a house on quick sand. No matter how awesome the materials were you used to build the house, the foundation sucked and it would never stand.

 

As I recall she didn't want to find the information on Moira. She found it and had the difficult decision to make of what to do with it. The information caused havoc in many different character's lives, but if I had been Oliver I would have wanted to know. Two of my friends attempted to keep some information from me. I found out and gave them both plenty of opportunity to be truthful. They never were. The lying hurt worse than the information. Information can cause hurt feelings, but lying is as atrocious as sister-swapping to me. Although Oliver keeps many secrets, I do think he values honesty.  

 

Time of Death is an episode which should be forgotten when they create the DVDs of the season. it was a horrible episode for all the characters. While most of season 2 isn't something I'll rush out to watch again, ToD should be banned to the seventh circle of hell or at least salted and burned by the Winchesters. 

 

Felicity's screen time was diminished (proven fact) but I can't argue against her importance being raised. However as a member of the original Arrow trio, her importance was always there. It was present in S1. It was present in S2. It'll be there until she is no longer a card-carrying member of Team Arrow. Why? Because she was brought in by Oliver and brings something to the table. Plenty of other characters were given screen time. I get it if you aren't a fan of Olicity. It must hurt to watch Laurel be sidelined. However, you can't blame Felicity. If it wasn't Felicity it would be Oliver's baby mama, Sara, or the next female he encounters on his morning run. Laurel and Oliver are even farther away from a relationship than they were when Laurel and Tommy were together. Sara pretty much sank Lauriver to the depths with Davey Jones' locker.  

 

If I was a Laurel fan, I could blame Felicity I guess. However, I still maintain I don't know how fans of Laurel could want her with Oliver again. Felicity gets a clean slate with Oliver. She has knowledge of his past but didn't live it. Laurel has been repeatedly cheated on by Oliver and lied to for years. He kept his identity as the Arrow from her and the knowledge Sara was alive. Where is the epic love in their story?

  • Love 11
Password

Password

Time of Death is an episode which should be forgotten when they create the DVDs of the season. it was a horrible episode for all the characters. While most of season 2 isn't something I'll rush out to watch again, ToD should be banned to the seventh circle of hell or at least salted and burned by the Winchesters. 

 

Where is the epic love in their story?

 

ToD? What? There was an episode called ToD? I recall there being a jump in episodes because what they came up with was so terrible it was left on the cutting room floor. (Yes I am that bitter about that darn episode)

 

There really is no epic love story. If there was, they kind of put it to shame with Oliver hooking up with Shado on the island, then Sara back in Starling City. Even though I thought they were toxic together in season 1, season 2 put the nail in the coffin for me.

 

I think people have every right to have opinions about characters and their effects on a show/other character. I'm cool with that. But I also think once you put your opinion out there you open yourself up to criticism, and seeing as Felicity is a beloved character, these things happen. I really like her character, and I think she was right to call Oliver out on being so selfish. But hey, to each their own.

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statsgirl

statsgirl

Guggenheim said in the TV Fanatic interview that they look at the emotional arc they are telling with the characters in that episode and in the season arc, and then they look at the pressure points to bring out the emotions and those pressure points are the villains.  So if you believe him, The Clockmaker really was written to be Felicity's emotional pressure point, and if that's true, I kind of feel sorry for all the flack the writers got for that episode.

 

The problem was, as it was in much of the second half of s2, that everyone else's emotional beats got lost in the Lance Family Drama which ate the show.  Including Sara's, who went from "I'd rather die than go back to the LoA"  to "Hey, Nyssa!  Wait up!  I'll just hand over this jacket and I'm yours."

  • Love 5
dtissagirl

dtissagirl

Yeah, it felt like the Clock King was a villain FOR Felicity, but the episode was so badly executed. I get that they were trying to pile up insecurities on her, but her internal turmoil came off looking like she was reacting to Sara's presence WAY MORE than feeling outsmarted by a dude who was as good as she is with computers.

catrox14

catrox14

I actually liked Time of Death. I thought it was about Felicity feeling she was losing her place in thArrowcave as a result of Sara's presence and The Clock King beating her at her own game. I never thought she seemed petty or immature. To me, she was a normal young, slightly insecure person faced with some massive failure that was going to cost the city some lives possibly and she was losing her confidence as a result.  I never thought it was about her being jealous of Sara because of Oliver and she seemed to like and respect Sara which IMO made it even harder for her because she knew Sara wasn't actively trying to hurt her or run her out of the Arrowcave.  

  • Love 6
statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

I think the Lance family story had to happen once they brought Sara on. There was no avoiding it..so yes Felicity and Diggle were less focused on (even though the former still had her focus).  

I think the problem was that they were trying to juggle too many balls in the air at once.  There was Sara's return to Starling City and her family, of course but that episode was also the culmination of Laurel's addiction arc because after Oliver told her off in the hallway, she admitted to it and started going to AA.  Then they also had Slade's arc going on through the episodes since 2x07 (State Versus Queen) whenThe Count admitted he was funded by someone, who hated Oliver.   Oliver himself was looking for the man in the mask and Roy had been already been shot up with mirakuru.  And there was also Oliver's double life in the background, trying to juggle CEO and Arrow duties.  So it shouldn't have been surprising that even though the episode was supposed to be about Felicity's insecurity about her role on the team now that Sara was there. kicking ass with Oliver and Diggle and scanning bloodwork, Felicity got lost in the shuffle.

 

I liked the twist that Felicity was never jealous of Sara being with Oliver, and that her insecurities were about her inability to do her job (both find the Clock King and prevent the lair from being blown up) while Sara was super competent at both fight and lab work, but it was almost like digging for truffles to find it.   You can hear the motif more clearly if there is just one or two instruments than if the orchestra is playing five melodies at once.

Edited by statsgirl
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quarks

quarks

Small rant:

I keep seeing in various places the argument that Felicity hasn't had any character development. Now, as far as Felicity having very little backstory, granted. As far as most of Felicity's character development being tied to Oliver and Team Arrow, also granted.

But I don't think that translates to no character development at all. It's even specifically acknowledged in the script. Felicity goes from a normal office worker/IT person - a job she loves and is good at, but is basically a regular job - to working with a vigilante turned hero and becoming a hero herself. She goes from panicking and telling Oliver and Diggle to get away from her when the Dodger puts a bomb collar around her neck and needing Oliver to yell at her to get her to stay focused "Talk to me Felicity!" (although, to note, she does something when she's damselled in distress unlike a certain other person) to just gulping and then helping to take down Slade with no instructions or encouragement while remaining relatively calm. She goes from feeling physically sick and actually getting physically sick with heights to waiting for Oliver to zipline down with her and being fine after this. And she goes from telling everyone not to put her up for bait for a serial killer again because it's terrifying to willingly doing so later.

Yes, it's all tied into Team Arrow/Oliver, but it's there. She hasn't been static.

  • Love 5
Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

I don't think she's lacking in character development.  I think she's lacking in rounding, I can't even say she's one dimensional because she's really not.  She's also not just the comic relief since she tosses out encouragement and heroic speeches almost as often as she does funny one liners.  But I think they need to give her a life outside of Team Arrow/Oliver in order to fully round the character out.

  • Love 2
catrox14

catrox14

Felicity is a fully realized, three dimensional character already.  For me it's all in the performance and the inner life that EBR gives Felicity and in the way others respond to her.  Her parents, her siblings if any, her time at college, are just details that IMO won't inform what I already think about Felicity and who I think Felicity seems to be. 

 

EBR reminds me a little bit of how Jensen Ackles took a character that was kind of one note in Dean Winchester in the first couple of episode and then filled him with an inner life that the writers couldn't ignore and made him a whole other three dimensional character.  Even more credit for EBR because she grabbed what she could in one episode! And blam here we are. 

  • Love 2
tv echo

tv echo

I agree that Felicity has had some character development (as analyzed above), partly due to EBR's acting, but needs more back story.  What I don't like is that, if she has reduced screen time, she's criticized as being a 2-D character or comic relief, but if she gets more screen time, she's criticized for that as well.

 

(If you like Jensen Ackles' development as an actor, watch his early work in Dark Angel, Season 2.  He was compelling even then.)

  • Love 1
BkWurm1

BkWurm1

Being a well rounded character and being a character with a fleshed out background really are two different things.  That's not always the case, but with Felicity, we know who she is without having to know where she came from.  I want to know that background stuff not so much to make me understand her more, but just because I want to know her more.  It's just details but they fill out the picture.

 

I think it is fair to say that Oliver doesn't start out as a well fleshed out character in the beginning either and more so, it took IMO the flashbacks over a period of a couple years to make me feel like I was really starting to understand him.  We had facts about him, son of a billionaire, lost at see, cheated on his girlfriend with her sister, stranded on island, back for vengeance, but I didn't understand or sympathize much with him in those early episodes.  I barely tolerated him.  Now watching some of those scenes make me tear up. 

 

So yeah to more info on Felicity, but I don't think more focus means she was lacking as  a character before. 

  • Love 1
catrox14

catrox14

For me, even with some of her reduced screentime it hasn't affected that I think she is still fully realized even without the backstories. It's her present and future that matter more to me, than how she got here. She's young enough that MIT grad is a good enough jumping off point to her future. And I don't think that makes her incomplete.  I feel like I don't need to meet her mother, to know that Felicity was self-motivated enough to go to college in spite of whatever obstacles were in front of her. I never had the sense that Felicity was born with a silver spoon in her mouth and that she has earned everything she has gotten. 

 

(re Ackles. Oh yes. I went back and watched every single thing Ackles has done post Days of Our Lives except for Devour.  Alec is my second favorite character that he's done and at times I'm not sure if I like Alec or Dean more. And FTR Ackles has vaulted into my favorite 5 actors of all time.  Yup and I'm not young anymore.). 

catrox14

catrox14

Again, for me it was all in EBR's nuanced performance if not the overt writing or dialogue that showed Felicity's progression. 

 

She was pretty confident in her first episode about what kind of nonsense Oliver was feeding her with the headtilt of "Really?" when he brought her the laptop with bullet holes. Then that steadily grew to realizing that Oliver is full completely full of shit and that there is more going on here. I thought we saw how Felicity really freaked out when Oliver shows up in the back of her car, which progressed to "I'm terrified and unsure about fighting criminals but I'm going to try" to "I'm a little less scared and unsure" to "I'm still scared but I'm a pretty great IT person/hacker so let me not forget that" to "Yes,  I'm willing to put my life on the line for my team and the city'". I think it's been really well done without hitting me in the face.

  • Love 2
dtissagirl

dtissagirl

I love this discussion of character development vs. backstory because this is a show that gets characters to develop by setting up contrasting and/or paralelling backstories. And for me it's fascinating that for a character we haven't seen in any flashbacks, I'm pretty comfortable with the development we got so far. I clearly see where Felicity started, the events that prompted all the changes she went through, and where she is right now as a clear-cut evolving arc. And I'm dying to know where she's going next, because FAVORITE.

 

However. I do want the flashbacks/backstories because this is how the show operates, and I hope they're set up in a way that informs the story going forward. Plus, it's about time they give Felicity her dues.

statsgirl

statsgirl

I think it was Natalie Abrams at TV Guide who said after the s2 finale that Oliver couldn't love Felicity because he doesn't know anything about her.

 

I'm in the camp that thinks we know a lot about her, just not a lot of facts.  Part of that is the writing, that they deliberately don't give us facts but they give us character development, and part is in EBR's portrayal with early Felicity's scepticism about the truth of Oliver's words to her current b.s. detector.

 

It's consistent that Felicity is scared of a lot of things and she continues to be scared but she goes ahead and does what she thinks needs to be done. Felicity's fear of heights was first talked about in s1 during the Merlyn office building caper.  Diggle's 'thank you for not throwing up until we landed' in 2x01 continues to amuse, as does his comment about the parachutes 'just in case we actually made it here'.  Presumably she's still afraid of heights since in Unthinkable she was the only one who didn't zipline down on her own, she waited for Oliver to take her.

 

 

And she goes from telling everyone not to put her up for bait for a serial killer again because it's terrifying to willingly doing so later.

While still being terrified.  That's actually a nice progression for the character, to go from "it's fun" in the Dodger and finding out it can be deadly too, to being willing to go undercover in the casino for Walter's sake, to being bait for the Dollmaker and saying she never would again, to wanting to help fight Slade, the most terrifying of them all.   They are really small notes and it's hard to hear them in the great orchestral crash of the show but they are there.

 

Her 'no kill unless you have to' has also been consistent from The Dodger when she walked out on Oliver because he wasn't, and it was a part of changing Oliver into the hero he ended s2 as.  In contrast, Diggle has always been willing to kill when it expedites things, as has Sara.

 

I don't think she's lacking in character development.  I think she's lacking in rounding, I can't even say she's one dimensional because she's really not.  She's also not just the comic relief since she tosses out encouragement and heroic speeches almost as often as she does funny one liners.  But I think they need to give her a life outside of Team Arrow/Oliver in order to fully round the character out.

I think (hope) they've finally come to the point where they're will to do that.  There was a lot of information to get through in s2, not to mention Sara coming back and Roy joining and Thea needing a reason to go away with Malcolm.  Hopefully the EPs will take the time out to give us some more info on Felicity now.

  • Love 1
catrox14

catrox14

Don't get me wrong. I won't mind Felicity backstory but I don't need it to appreciate her characterization.

 

As to the TV Guide writer's comment, for her to say Oliver can't be with her because he doesn't know anything about her is pretty rich. Oliver is a lying liar that lies (which I don't mind because he has to for superhero reasons) but I don't think he has to know her history to love her anyway. He loves the woman she is NOW with him.

  • Love 1
formerlyfreedom

formerlyfreedom

Hey gang, first everyone is entitled to their opinion. Second, if you disagree with someone on another forum please have the discussion there. No need to bring comments from other websites here to discuss how you disagree with them. Thanks. 

 

Folks, we talked about this just yesterday. What's discussed on other forums on the internet stays there. Don't make us say it again. To paraphrase an old favorite, "You won't like it if we have to say it again..."

 

Thanks.

wonderwall

wonderwall

I don't understand how people can say that there's way too much Felicity being shoved down their throats when she barely gets a couple of lines per episode (bar the last two)? 

 

I'm actually really having trouble understanding, could any of you explain why? Because logistically, Felicity had just as much screentime as Digg. And Digg even got his own episode...

  • Love 2

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