Law & Order Discussion Topic (2019 - 2021)

[shapeshifter]

9 hours ago, balmz said:

what real life cases since it first went off the air would you like to see them cover?

Nothing we can talk about here—at least not in detail. But there is a wealth of cases from one particular date early this year. 
Although if the cases have to be in the NYC jurisdiction, that likely narrows it down to a few.

Dear Mr. Wolf,   
Perhaps consider Law & Order: DC.  
Note how nicely the title abbreviates to a findable Google search. 
Sincerely,   
shapeshifter

I’m sure a reboot would cover pandemic mandates, but I don’t really want to watch more of that. And probably there will be episodes in which people sue one another for causing the death of a loved one during the pandemic. Depending upon how they’re handled, those could be good. 

[Cristofle]

20 hours ago, balmz said:

here's a good one hopefully, what real life cases since it first went off the air would you like to see them cover? hopefully they could do it more subtly then svu does 

It's sad that I almost immediately assumed both with the Shanann Watts and the Gabby Petito cases that SVU would get to them shortly. Although I'm not sure they HAVE yet covered the Watts case? So maybe that's an option. Petito is (hopefully) too soon, although I remember one case later in the original show I DIDN'T like them covering was the Long Island "wrong way" crash, and I also thought it was too soon. The Lori Vallow case has been a really wild ride. 

If Law and Order ever did DC, as a DC area native, I only ask that they film here. It was often really obvious Bones did not ;) 

[Xeliou66]

I just watched another very frustrating episode - Age of Innocence - the fact that the jury didn’t convict the manipulative asshole Reverend Dwyer left a bad taste in my mouth. Good episode but those people (the Lamar family and Dwyer) drove me nuts - the woman was in a vegetative state and had been for years, she wasn’t getting better, but for whatever reason they couldn’t let her go and Dwyer came along and manipulated all of them. And yeah Steven Lamar took the fall for Dwyer as Jack said, while Steven did plant the bomb and deserved to be convicted Dwyer orchestrated the whole thing. I loved Fontana calling Dwyer a “bomb throwing phony” - I’m not a big Fontana fan and frequently he came across as an asshole but he did get in some good one liners sometimes. 

[Jaded]

21 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I just watched another very frustrating episode - Age of Innocence - the fact that the jury didn’t convict the manipulative asshole Reverend Dwyer left a bad taste in my mouth. 

I’m not a big Fontana fan and frequently he came across as an asshole but he did get in some good one liners sometimes. 

I was watching that episode and the marathon last night too. I'm watching tonight too. Fontana's run on the show occurred around the time Katrina hit which affected my Mom's and my living situation. I was bummed enough about that and the fact that Lennie was no longer on the show made me pause my viewership for awhile. Watching reruns years ago was my first real exposure to Fontana's run and his asshole behavior which at times felt like he went out of his way to exhibit rubbed me the wrong way too. It made more sense once I found out he was a former police officer (his character got pissed at that guy in that one episode when he called Fontana a cop).

The episode where Branch told McCoy "Jack. You know, you're a great prosecutor, but you'll never be a district attorney." was on last night too. That scene always pisses me off when I see it and I caught myself saying "F you" out loud to the TV in reaction. After years of Adam Schiff as the main DA character Branch was a PITA to deal with as a viewer in comparison. I didn't mind Nora the couple seasons she was on. It didn't seem like her character was written like there was an intention of her being there long term.

When Jack was moved up to DA I always kind of wished that Connie had been moved up to fill in his old position instead of Cutter. Connie and Cutter didn't seem like they were that far apart in age and it would have been nice to see some progression like that. 

I realize that quite a few of my opinions aren't really popular ones based on previous reactions I've had to my posts in this thread.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Jaded

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, Jaded said:

I was watching that episode and the marathon last night too. I'm watching tonight too. Fontana's run on the show occurred around the time Katrina hit which affected my Mom's and my living situation. I was bummed enough about that and the fact that Lennie was no longer on the show made me pause my viewership for awhile. Watching reruns years ago was my first real exposure to Fontana's run and his asshole behavior which at times felt like he went out of his way to exhibit rubbed me the wrong way too. It made more sense once I found out he was a former police officer (his character got pissed at that guy in that one episode when he called Fontana a cop).

The episode where Branch told McCoy "Jack. You know, you're a great prosecutor, but you'll never be a district attorney." was on last night too. That scene always pisses me off when I see it and I caught myself saying "F you" out loud to the TV in reaction. After years of Adam Schiff as the main DA character Branch was a PITA to deal with as a viewer in comparison. I didn't mind Nora the couple seasons she was on. It didn't seem like her character was written like there was an intention of her being there long term.

When Jack was moved up to DA I always kind of wished that Connie had been moved up to fill in his old position instead of Cutter. Connie and Cutter didn't seem like they were that far apart in age and it would have been nice to see some progression like that. 

I realize that quite a few of my opinions aren't really popular ones based on previous reactions I've had to my posts in this thread.

Interesting observations. Fontana seemed to often go out of his way to be a prick to people it seemed, often times he was a dick to people they were talking to for no apparent reason. It’s why I’m not a big fan of him. I’m glad they made him very different from Lennie, but he was unlikable a lot of the time. He was better than Detective Beauty Queen though, because at least he had a personality.

While I like Arthur overall and found him much better than the very bland Nora Lewin, I was annoyed with his comment to Jack that he would never be District Attorney as well. Obviously Arthur had changed his mind by the season 17 finale because he clearly wanted Jack to take his place as DA.

It would’ve been interesting to see Connie as lead prosecutor, I really like her and think it would’ve worked, but I like Cutter for the most part as well and I really like the chemistry of the final cast - the McCoy/Cutter/Rubirosa tandem was the best legal team L&O had had in years, and I liked Lupo/Bernard as well.

[GHScorpiosRule]

"Fixed" was also in my queue and I watched it again last night and the retcons still me off.

First, Carla was no innocent victim who Lowenstein managed to get under his control/charm whatever. She was as much of a narcissist as he was. Not saying she deserved to get beaten, but she was just as abusive to Ezra. I still remember the boiling hot water she was going to put his hands in before Mike and Max arrived to save him.

And I understand that jury nullification is real. That this jury probably thought it was okay to shirk the oat they took because Lowenstein was a piece of shit who deserved to die. But Draper was no angel. How the jury could believe her "I don't know HOW Lowenstein's DNA could have gotten on my car...other people have access to my car" bullshit. And that Jack didn't state whoever else could have had access wouldn't have known him or a reason to kill him. He wasn't nationally infamous within the show's universe. Her whole testimony was just so unbelievable. If the murder victim had been anyone else, that jury would have convicted her.

 

[shapeshifter]

9 hours ago, Jaded said:

I was watching that episode and the marathon last night too. I'm watching tonight too. Fontana's run on the show occurred around the time Katrina hit which affected my Mom's and my living situation. I was bummed enough about that and the fact that Lennie was no longer on the show made me pause my viewership for awhile....

The episode where Branch told McCoy "Jack. You know, you're a great prosecutor, but you'll never be a district attorney." was on last night too. That scene always pisses me off when I see it and I caught myself saying "F you" out loud to the TV in reaction....

I realize that quite a few of my opinions aren't really popular ones based on previous reactions I've had to my posts in this thread.

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Interesting observations. Fontana seemed to often go out of his way to be a prick to people it seemed, often times he was a dick to people they were talking to for no apparent reason. It’s why I’m not a big fan of him....

While I like Arthur overall and found him much better than the very bland Nora Lewin, I was annoyed with his comment to Jack that he would never be District Attorney as well....

I only watched original airings sporadically during the last few seasons Law & Order. 
Reading these👆 2 posts I *finally* understand the general viewer animosity towards Fontana--as well as a few other popular opinions that have been head-scratchers for me. 
@Jaded, I think your opinions are very popular, especially among any viewers who watched the show when it first aired. However, I suppose this means that as time marches on, your opinions might become less popular. But you could just preface them with something like, "Watching this episode when it first aired, before [XYZ happened]...."

2 examples of my perspective as a late-to-the-show viewer:

1. While I adore the character of Lennie as much as anyone, I was not watching the show in 2004 when he retired after 13 years on the show(?!) and was replaced with Fontana. Watching the show 10 or more years later, out of sequence, I was introduced to the character of Fontana without any sense of emotional loss on my part for the character of Lennie. Lennie was just as available to me in reruns as Fontana. And I already knew that Fontana was just a short-term replacement, show-wise, while Lennie was long gone after a run that completely eclipsed Fontana's.
   So.
   This makes me wonder if the show runners/writers/creators deliberately made Fontana a bit of a tool on purpose so the fans would have someone on whom to vent emotional loss for the long-beloved character of Lennie. Rather than hate TPTB of the show, the audience could hate Fontana.
   
   Maybe when I have time, I will do a deep dive into locating any interviews that reveal this strategy (I still have access to searchable old newspaper databases). Or do any of you recall reading about this at the time?
    
2. Likewise, the episode in which Branch tells McCoy, "Jack. You know, you're a great prosecutor, but you'll never be a District Attorney" (16.1 "Red Ball" 2005) actually makes me chuckle because I have never viewed it without already knowing that Jack does indeed become DA just 2 years later on the show (which I probably first watched 10 years later). I get to view it with a silent "neener neener neener" to Branch, with none of the righteous indignation I would have likely felt had I first viewed it live in 2005. 
   
   And now I'm wondering if TPTB knew Branch (Fred Thompson) was leaving in 2 years, and if they already planned to make Jack (Sam Waterston) DA? Maybe it was just a vague possibility that was being thrown around, and the line was a joke for their future selves if it happened.

[wknt3]

19 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Interesting observations. Fontana seemed to often go out of his way to be a prick to people it seemed, often times he was a dick to people they were talking to for no apparent reason. It’s why I’m not a big fan of him. I’m glad they made him very different from Lennie, but he was unlikable a lot of the time. He was better than Detective Beauty Queen though, because at least he had a personality.

 

10 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I only watched original airings sporadically during the last few seasons Law & Order. 
Reading these👆 2 posts I *finally* understand the general viewer animosity towards Fontana--as well as a few other popular opinions that have been head-scratchers for me. 
@Jaded, I think your opinions are very popular, especially among any viewers who watched the show when it first aired. However, I suppose this means that as time marches on, your opinions might become less popular. But you could just preface them with something like, "Watching this episode when it first aired, before [XYZ happened]...."

2 examples of my perspective as a late-to-the-show viewer:

1. While I adore the character of Lennie as much as anyone, I was not watching the show in 2004 when he retired after 13 years on the show(?!) and was replaced with Fontana. Watching the show 10 or more years later, out of sequence, I was introduced to the character of Fontana without any sense of emotional loss on my part for the character of Lennie. Lennie was just as available to me in reruns as Fontana. And I already knew that Fontana was just a short-term replacement, show-wise, while Lennie was long gone after a run that completely eclipsed Fontana's.
   So.
   This makes me wonder if the show runners/writers/creators deliberately made Fontana a bit of a tool on purpose so the fans would have someone on whom to vent emotional loss for the long-beloved character of Lennie. Rather than hate TPTB of the show, the audience could hate Fontana.
   dignation I would have likely felt had I first viewed it live in 2005. 
    

I don't know if it was about giving the fans a chance to vent, but I'm sure it was a deliberate choice. I think it was about trying to do something different, realizing there was no way they could recapture the same dynamic. They didn't try to replace Lennie even though the characters were very similar demographically. Instead they shook things up a lot and inverted things. Where Green had been in more of the hothead cowboy role in the partnership he was now the by the book one. And while they were both old school Briscoe had matured and realized that the good old days of policing had their problems and while he might "kick the ball on the fairway" occasionally he wasn't slicing it into the rough and then dropping it on the green like Fontana did. I've said here before that Dennis Farina and Fontana saved the show. If they had tried to replace Briscoe or went the way the network wanted and gone younger and hotter I think there is a good chance the show would have ended in a couple years. And a lesser actor couldn't have pulled off such an abrasive character and made him still watchable.

 

Quote

And now I'm wondering if TPTB knew Branch (Fred Thompson) was leaving in 2 years, and if they already planned to make Jack (Sam Waterston) DA? Maybe it was just a vague possibility that was being thrown around, and the line was a joke for their future selves if it happened.

I doubt they knew. Nobody took the idea of Fred Thompson running for President seriously even after he announced! (I kid - he was the flavor of the month for a bit and his departure was very classy - he waited to formally enter the race until the network reruns of his last season were done so that the rest of the cast and writers could get those royalties as the shows couldn't be aired under various regulations and policies once he was an official candidate.)

Edited October 21, 2021 by wknt3
ducking autocorrect

[Xeliou66]

Interesting stuff - I agree that had the show gone with someone like Beauty Queen to replace Lennie the show might not have lasted as long as it did, like I say, at least Fontana  had a personality and made things interesting even if he wasn’t likable. And it is interesting to compare the dynamics between Briscoe/Green and Green/Fontana - while with Briscoe, Green was the more hot headed and intense one compared to the laid back Lennie, with Fontana, Green was the more smooth, even-keel detective. And while Lennie might’ve kicked the ball in the fairway on occasion, he was not at all like Fontana who just seemed to have no ethics, he would lie at the drop of a hat about anything and all too often seemed to want to go back to the “good old days” when there were no rules for police. That and his general dick-ish attitude are why I’m not a fan of Fontana, but I would still take him over Beauty Queen any day. 

[WendyCR72]

Always fascinated me how Dennis Farina was a real Chicago cop before he got cast in a minor role in some movie - which led to his big break in Crime Story in the mid '80s on NBC.

Funny how art imitated life, since on L&O, wasn't Fontana also originally a Chicago cop that moved to NYC?

[Ailianna]

I think that's something that was deliberate, and a few times they would take details from an actor's real life and make it kind of an inside joke, like all the times Briscoe said he didn't get theatre or why anyone would pay to see Broadway shows. An in character attitude for Lennie; an inside joke re Jerry Orbach who was such a well known theatre actor he now has a theatre named after him on 52nd St.  

[Door County Cherry]

I think the truth is there are more cops like Fontana than those we love the most who care about justice.  I appreciated that part of his character even if he wasn't a ton of fun to watch sometimes. 

I saw The Cost of Capital against last night. Whew.  That's such a good, cold-blooded twist.  Borgia threatening the doctor was one of her greatest character moments, IMO. 

[Xeliou66]

16 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

I think the truth is there are more cops like Fontana than those we love the most who care about justice.  I appreciated that part of his character even if he wasn't a ton of fun to watch sometimes. 

I saw The Cost of Capital against last night. Whew.  That's such a good, cold-blooded twist.  Borgia threatening the doctor was one of her greatest character moments, IMO. 

Cost of Capital is probably my favorite season 16 episode - such an interesting case and both the killer mom and the rapist grandpa were such evil, cold blooded characters. I hated them both and was thrilled to see them go down. Borgia confronting the scumbag doctor who covered up the rape is my favorite Borgia moment, Borgia didn’t have many moments that were good but I loved that one. I also liked Fontana bluntly saying that the handcuffs were necessary when they arrest the mom and grandpa started complaining. Good investigation and legal stuff, very good episode.

[wknt3]

11 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Always fascinated me how Dennis Farina was a real Chicago cop before he got cast in a minor role in some movie - which led to his big break in Crime Story in the mid '80s on NBC.

Funny how art imitated life, since on L&O, wasn't Fontana also originally a Chicago cop that moved to NYC?

 

11 hours ago, Ailianna said:

I think that's something that was deliberate, and a few times they would take details from an actor's real life and make it kind of an inside joke, like all the times Briscoe said he didn't get theatre or why anyone would pay to see Broadway shows. An in character attitude for Lennie; an inside joke re Jerry Orbach who was such a well known theatre actor he now has a theatre named after him on 52nd St.  

In this case I suspect it was a bit more prosaic - they needed some way to explain why a NYC detective sounded like Dennis Farina. The character trait that was a non-pragmatic nod to real life was his fashion sense which was also art imitating life but unlike his accent could have been easily changed,
 

8 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I think the truth is there are more cops like Fontana than those we love the most who care about justice.  I appreciated that part of his character even if he wasn't a ton of fun to watch sometimes.

Agreed. Which is one of the reasons I was so disappointed to read Dick Wolf's comments in the press last year about his show's were apolitical and that they featured only good cops as they were better stories. Not only were they shallow, but it demonstrated an ignorance of his own show, both the many stories that explored police corruption and abuses of power and the complicity of "good cops" in both, and the difficulties of using the current system to try to curb those abuses and also the fact that for years it featured a lead character who brought those issues to the forefront. There were many episodes where it was clear that Green and more importantly Van Buren weren't comfortable with some of his tactics, but accepted them because he was an effective investigator. I know he was mostly worried about the money after the first few seasons, but I don't think it is too much to ask to be well versed on your flagship series. Unless he was just being purposely vague because he knew Chicago PD was indefensible both on content and aesthetic grounds so he was willing to throw his baby under the bus to avoid talking about it...
 

[Katy M]

26 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

was so disappointed to read Dick Wolf's comments in the press last year about his show's were apolitical

Wait, did he say Law & Order was not political?  That show was full of politics.  They discussed constitutional interpretations several times. There were a lot of cases that touched upon, if not outright revolved around, hot topic political issues such as abortion and immigration.   

[wknt3]

27 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Wait, did he say Law & Order was not political?  That show was full of politics.  They discussed constitutional interpretations several times. There were a lot of cases that touched upon, if not outright revolved around, hot topic political issues such as abortion and immigration.   

Perhaps non-partisan would be a better word, but some of his comments went further IMHO saying his shows examined social issues in a non-political way. I would say it is fair to say that the mothership (unlike the lesser series in his stable) always tried to make sure both sides of the issues were represented honestly and fairly, but “If you go back over the years you can’t find evidence of anything I’ve done being politically oriented. If you do that 50% of the audience is [angry] from the first frame,” is out of touch at best and disingenuous at worst and I remember statements that went even further. Dick Wolf the producer only cares about money and will put anything on the air that makes money simultaneously glorifying police power and woke hashtag feminism, but Law & Order the series had a POV although one that didn't necessarily fit neatly in a particular ideological box and as I said above always tried to be fair to both sides of the issues.

Edited October 21, 2021 by wknt3

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

Perhaps non-partisan would be a better word, but some of his comment went further IMHO saying his shows examined social issues in a non-political way. I would say it is fair to say that the mothership (unlike the lesser series in his stable) always tried to make sure both sides of the issues were represented honestly and fairly, but “If you go back over the years you can’t find evidence of anything I’ve done being politically oriented. If you do that 50% of the audience is [angry] from the first frame,” is out of touch at best and disingenuous at worst and I remember statements that went even further. Dick Wolf the producer only cares about money and will put anything on the air that makes money simultaneously glorifying police power and woke hashtag feminisim,, but Law & Order the series had a POV although one that didn't necessarily fit neatly in a particular ideological box and as I said above always tried to be fair to both sides of the issues.

Agree with this. "Life Choice", one of my favorite episodes from the first season did this well. You saw both sides of abortion in a nuanced way. You had Mike and Max knocking heads over it.

How Ben told Adam he could separate his own beliefs when prosecuting those responsible for the bombing.

But I love this episode for how Ben shut up Rose Schwimmer at the end.

Oh SNAP!

[Xeliou66]

4 hours ago, wknt3 said:

 

In this case I suspect it was a bit more prosaic - they needed some way to explain why a NYC detective sounded like Dennis Farina. The character trait that was a non-pragmatic nod to real life was his fashion sense which was also art imitating life but unlike his accent could have been easily changed,
 

Agreed. Which is one of the reasons I was so disappointed to read Dick Wolf's comments in the press last year about his show's were apolitical and that they featured only good cops as they were better stories. Not only were they shallow, but it demonstrated an ignorance of his own show, both the many stories that explored police corruption and abuses of power and the complicity of "good cops" in both, and the difficulties of using the current system to try to curb those abuses and also the fact that for years it featured a lead character who brought those issues to the forefront. There were many episodes where it was clear that Green and more importantly Van Buren weren't comfortable with some of his tactics, but accepted them because he was an effective investigator. I know he was mostly worried about the money after the first few seasons, but I don't think it is too much to ask to be well versed on your flagship series. Unless he was just being purposely vague because he knew Chicago PD was indefensible both on content and aesthetic grounds so he was willing to throw his baby under the bus to avoid talking about it...
 

Wow I didn’t know Dick Wolf said that, disappointing. The L&O franchise examined police corruption many times and did plenty of stories about the various shades of gray in the justice system. I guarantee his response was like that because of Chicago PD, which is a morally bankrupt glorification of police misconduct and brutality, but it’s still disappointing from Wolf.

4 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Agree with this. "Life Choice", one of my favorite episodes from the first season did this well. You saw both sides of abortion in a nuanced way. You had Mike and Max knocking heads over it.

How Ben told Adam he could separate his own beliefs when prosecuting those responsible for the bombing.

But I love this episode for how Ben shut up Rose Schwimmer at the end.

Oh SNAP!

I really like Life Choice as well, Greevey was an ass for a lot of it but that was Greevey, he was frequently an ass. I liked the discussions between Schiff/Stone/Robinette, and how Schiff said it was one sided how 3 men were sitting around talking about what rights a woman should have over her body, and I liked that Stone was able to put aside his own personal beliefs about abortion and prosecute the case. 

[Cristofle]

18 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I really like Life Choice as well, Greevey was an ass for a lot of it but that was Greevey, he was frequently an ass. I liked the discussions between Schiff/Stone/Robinette, and how Schiff said it was one sided how 3 men were sitting around talking about what rights a woman should have over her body, and I liked that Stone was able to put aside his own personal beliefs about abortion and prosecute the case. 

I think this episode is really a stand-out for Stone from Season 1, because you can see his respect for the law and how he approaches his cases from that respect, rather than focusing on his own personal beliefs. Also, the way he shut the woman down in cross in the end was outstanding. I'm definitely more "Team Logan" in the arguments Logan and Greevey had, and I appreciate that they allowed Logan to be frank and unapologetic over his own ex-girlfriend having an abortion, but even though Greevey wasn't a favorite, I like that he necessarily wasn't a caricature. He struggled with his own beliefs versus what happened. He's clearly uncomfortable at one point about the girl's father when they thought she was the bomber, he had a great line about the father "not losing a daughter but gaining a martyr", or something like that. This is maybe in my top three from the first season. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

57 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I think this episode is really a stand-out for Stone from Season 1, because you can see his respect for the law and how he approaches his cases from that respect, rather than focusing on his own personal beliefs. Also, the way he shut the woman down in cross in the end was outstanding. I'm definitely more "Team Logan" in the arguments Logan and Greevey had, and I appreciate that they allowed Logan to be frank and unapologetic over his own ex-girlfriend having an abortion, but even though Greevey wasn't a favorite, I like that he necessarily wasn't a caricature. He struggled with his own beliefs versus what happened. He's clearly uncomfortable at one point about the girl's father when they thought she was the bomber, he had a great line about the father "not losing a daughter but gaining a martyr", or something like that. This is maybe in my top three from the first season. 

Absolutely!

And I loved how when Max confronted Mike about the issue, he said, yeah! One did, got an abortion; but now she's happily married with kids somewhere (I'm blanking on where), which shut Max up.

Yeah, Max was judgmental--there was the episode where that guy was thought to have committed suicide accidentally, because he was into S&M, and Max wanted off the case. Loved Cragen's sarcasm that they only investigate cases for those that were without sin or something. And then Max again is shut up when the victim's daughter says he would never commit suicide because he was Catholic.

My other favorite, definitely top five Ben Stone moment is when he's telling Adam about controlling his own rage over Lowenstein murdering his daughter in "Indifference"; and then going after him on the stand, asking how could he not see all that blood the size of a small rug.

When we had a full forum here, I posted my favorite scenes and quotes. I think they're here, several pages back.

Michael Moriarty was so good; it still hurts me that he went Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs in real life.

Edited October 22, 2021 by GHScorpiosRule

[Cristofle]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yeah, Max was judgmental--there was the episode where that guy was thought to have committed suicide accidentally, because he was into S&M, and Max wanted off the case. Loved Cragen's sarcasm that they only investigate cases for those that were without sin or something. And then Max again is shut up when the victim's daughter says he would never commit suicide because he was Catholic.

I think one of my all-time favorite early Logan moments is in The Reaper's Helper, when their victim turns out to be gay and Greevey seems unable to believe some cops might be gay. He has a line about if your left eye blinks before your right eye, the department knows you're gay, and then he winks at Greevey, who seems to be half-going along with him up to that point, lmao. Logan was ahead of his time in some ways, and Noth's delivery of the wink was perfection.

[Xeliou66]

Good points being made - I agree Greevey wasn’t a caricature but he did annoy me with his judgmental attitude. I loved the scene in Prisoner of Love where Greevey wanted off the case because the sex stuff made him uncomfortable and Cragen bluntly told him request denied. Cragen is such a good character, he gets overshadowed by the equally awesome Van Buren on the Mothership because he was only on for 3 seasons but he was great.

Stone was a great character, him and McCoy were extremely different but both great, and I also liked the scene in Indifference where Stone told Adam about his rage surrounding the case and we saw how disgusted he was in court. It was the most visibly upset Stone ever got, that case was chilling.

[Cristofle]

22 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Cragen is such a good character, he gets overshadowed by the equally awesome Van Buren on the Mothership because he was only on for 3 seasons but he was great.

I really loved Cragen and Logan in particular. It was obvious that when Logan was upset, it got to Cragen. 

I'll never forget S. Epatha's actual first episode back in S1, as the mother whose baby got shot because the killer got the address wrong. Her screaming when Greevey and Logan told her was so chilling. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I'll never forget S. Epatha's actual first episode back in S1, as the mother whose baby got shot because the killer got the address wrong. Her screaming when Greevey and Logan told her was so chilling. 

"Mushrooms"

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, Cristofle said:

I really loved Cragen and Logan in particular. It was obvious that when Logan was upset, it got to Cragen. 

I'll never forget S. Epatha's actual first episode back in S1, as the mother whose baby got shot because the killer got the address wrong. Her screaming when Greevey and Logan told her was so chilling. 

I loved when Cragen returned in the season 5 episode Bad Faith and talked to Logan about the cop that committed suicide that was Logan’s friend who had been abused by the pedophile priest, that was a really good episode and I liked the conversation between Cragen/Logan at the restaurant.

Cragen had really nice rapport with the detectives, it was interesting how they usually called him by his first name, calling him “Don” or “Donny”, whereas none of the detectives called Van Buren “Anita”.

[Cristofle]

2 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I loved when Cragen returned in the season 5 episode Bad Faith and talked to Logan about the cop that committed suicide that was Logan’s friend who had been abused by the pedophile priest, that was a really good episode and I liked the conversation between Cragen/Logan at the restaurant.

Bad Faith is SUCH a good episode. I think it's some of Chris Noth's best work. "We called you Father." His delivery of that line gets to me every time.

I will say I think one of my all-time favorite communications between a captain and a detective is between Logan and Van Buren in what is also one of my favorite overall episodes, Mayhem, after one of their victims in the episode gets his...member cut off. 

Logan: "Maybe he has loftier pursuits."

Van Buren: "What, you think he plays the clarinet?"

Logan: "I HOPE he plays the clarinet." 

 

[wknt3]

27 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I loved when Cragen returned in the season 5 episode Bad Faith and talked to Logan about the cop that committed suicide that was Logan’s friend who had been abused by the pedophile priest, that was a really good episode and I liked the conversation between Cragen/Logan at the restaurant.

Cragen had really nice rapport with the detectives, it was interesting how they usually called him by his first name, calling him “Don” or “Donny”, whereas none of the detectives called Van Buren “Anita”.

I think you mean nobody called her that twice. Remember when Logan thought they could be on a first name basis? As far as Cragen was concerned he was a longtime friend and former partner of Greevey and Cerreta was his Sergeant and #2 and the familiarity carried on with Logan and to a lesser extent Briscoe who was also an old timer whom he could relate with on a personal level. When Van Buren came in there was none of that past history at play and they were simply two of her subordinates. Even if they were the two that seemed to catch an extraordinary number of high profile cases that tied in to hot button social and political issues while guys like Profaci got them donuts and worked all the cut and dried cases nobody cared about...

Edited October 23, 2021 by wknt3
ducking autocorrect

[Xeliou66]

17 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Bad Faith is SUCH a good episode. I think it's some of Chris Noth's best work. "We called you Father." His delivery of that line gets to me every time.

I will say I think one of my all-time favorite communications between a captain and a detective is between Logan and Van Buren in what is also one of my favorite overall episodes, Mayhem, after one of their victims in the episode gets his...member cut off. 

Logan: "Maybe he has loftier pursuits."

Van Buren: "What, you think he plays the clarinet?"

Logan: "I HOPE he plays the clarinet." 

 

Bad Faith is a great episode I agree, very compelling stuff for Logan and I loved seeing Cragen again. 

 

6 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

I think you mean nobody called her that twice. Remember when Logan thought they could be on a first name basis. As far as Cragen was concerned he was a longtime friend and former partner of Greevey and Cerreta was his Sergeant and #2 and the familiarity carried on with Logan and to a lesser extent Briscoe who was also an old timer whom he could relate with on a personal level. When Van Buren came in there was none of that past history at play and they were simply two of her subordinates. Even if they were the two that seemed to catch an extraordinary number of high profile cases that tied in to hot button social and political issues while guys like Profaci got them donuts and caught all the cut and dried cases nobody cared about...

Yes I remember when Logan called her “Anita” in Privileged, that was funny, and that was the only time one of the detectives tried calling her by her first name. But yeah Cragen had history with Greevey as they were partners and that carried over with the other detectives, while with Van Buren they didn’t have that, same way as on SVU the detectives didn’t have the past with Cragen so none of them called him by his first name.

And we don’t know what cases Profaci, LaMotte etc caught, we only saw the cases the 2 main detectives caught.

[Xeliou66]

Season 17 was on today, and while I think it is definitely the weakest season of L&O, I do think it ended strong, I like the last 4 episodes of season 17 -

Fallout is a pretty good case about the Russian human traffickers and I liked seeing Jack’s daughter at the end, it was a nice touch to see them meet up since they had mentioned that they hadn’t spoken in 9 years at the start of season 17, I liked how L&O didn’t focus heavily on personal stuff at all but had little moments like that that gave insights into the characters.

Captive was one of L&O’s most disturbing cases IMO, while I believed Tory knew what he was doing was wrong when he killed the other kid, I still felt a lot of sympathy for him given that he had been kidnapped by that pedophile scumbag Roger and given that his stepfather was physically abusive. It was an interesting trial, and like Jack said at the end, no one won in that case.

Over Here is a really good episode, compelling case and investigation and I liked McCoy’s outrage at the conditions at the VA hospital and how he went ahead with exposing the situation when the defense couldn’t, and I liked the final scene between him and Branch when Arthur said he would have good representation at the contempt hearing and Jack asked “you?” and Arthur replied “yes and at a reasonable fee!” I love Arthur’s colorful personality.

And of course the season finale, The Family Hour, has been discussed here before but it was a wild, sensational but gripping case from start to finish. As I’ve said before I understood where both Jack and Arthur were coming from when they were discussing whether or not to notify the judge of Rodgers error, but I think Jack was right. I loved Connie’s closing argument, and the final scene between McCoy and Branch. While I never liked Beauty Queen Cassady, and Van Buren rightfully berated her in this one, she did do a good job testifying when she said she could’ve shot the senator when she found him with the knife over his daughters body if she really had it in for him.

I really liked the McCoy/Rubirosa/Branch legal side, and this was the best lineup of prosecutors in several seasons, Connie is one of my favorite ADA’s and she really added a spark to the show, if the show had continued with the dull as dirt Borgia, I think there’s a good chance the show wouldn’t have lasted until season 18.

So while I think season 17 is the weakest season overall, it did end with 4 good episodes IMO.

[balmz]

on the youtube channel they were airing scenes from human flesh search engine and people were commenting on how the episode seem to predict cancel culture and internet shaming, thought it was pretty amusing and the episode was pretty great, 

 

what's your thoughts on the episode and it seeming to predict those things

[wknt3]

9 hours ago, balmz said:

what's your thoughts on the episode and it seeming to predict those things

Everything old is new again...

Seriously though I don't think they predicted anything, but instead ripped from the headlines of the day and we need to remind ourselves and the pundits that not everything is as novel and unprecedented as it might seem. Outrage and mob mentality have been around forever and the internet has facilitated it as long as it has existed.

I have always enjoyed this episode. Some great writing especially the comedic beats. Plus it is always fun seeing one of The Daily Show greats pop up. This era's writers really should have written more loudmouthed a-holes.

[shapeshifter]

13 hours ago, balmz said:

what's your thoughts on the episode and it seeming to predict those things

4 hours ago, wknt3 said:

Everything old is new again...

Seriously though I don't think they predicted anything, but instead ripped from the headlines of the day and we need to remind ourselves and the pundits that not everything is as novel and unprecedented as it might seem. Outrage and mob mentality have been around forever and the internet has facilitated it as long as it has existed.

I agree.
I'm imagining John Munch in a cross-over saying something like, "Cancel Culture? If you want to see Cancel Culture in action, check out the McCarthy hearings and the blacklists of the last century. Or better yet, how about the Salem witch trials? They sure had some creative ideas for canceling people."

I (and John Munch) could go on ad nauseum. Literally ad nauseum.

However. There's an argument that Anti-Cancel Culture is new, to which I say (in my best Munch impersonation):
You want to see Anti-Cancel Culture? Read up on the French Revolution when the streets were clogged with blood and the beheadings went as high as 30 per day (alphahistory.com/frenchrevolution/reign-of-terror/#Streets_clogged_with_blood). 

 

[Xeliou66]

I like Human Flesh Search Engine as well, it’s an interesting episode. And it has one of my favorite bits of comedic dialogue in L&O history, it goes something like this

Bernard (to someone on the phone) “Screw you!”

Van Buren “I take it that wasn’t your mother”.

Bernard “It was somebody calling me a Nazi. You know an hour ago I got a call from someone saying I need to go on a diet”.

Lupo “Maybe that was your mother!!”. 
 

Van Buren’s expression after Lupo’s quip is priceless!! That exchange makes me laugh every time. 

 

[wknt3]

4 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I like Human Flesh Search Engine as well, it’s an interesting episode. And it has one of my favorite bits of comedic dialogue in L&O history, it goes something like this

Bernard (to someone on the phone) “Screw you!”

Van Buren “I take it that wasn’t your mother”.

Bernard “It was somebody calling me a Nazi. You know an hour ago I got a call from someone saying I need to go on a diet”.

Lupo “Maybe that was your mother!!”. 
 

Van Buren’s expression after Lupo’s quip is priceless!! That exchange makes me laugh every time. 

 

That's one of the exchanges I was thinking of when I mentioned great comedic beats. Along with the legal side -

"McCoy: That place on the World Wide Web?

Connie: Actually, they don't call it that anymore.

McCoy: I'm sorry, should I have said "wireless telegraph"?"

[balmz]

5 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

That's one of the exchanges I was thinking of when I mentioned great comedic beats. Along with the legal side -

"McCoy: That place on the World Wide Web?

Connie: Actually, they don't call it that anymore.

McCoy: I'm sorry, should I have said "wireless telegraph"?"

classic line, you know that line partly inspired my what plots wouldn't work nowadays because of technology advances post i wrote before

[balmz]

https://deadline.com/2021/11/jeffrey-donovan-star-law-order-revival-nbc-1234865979/

 

some news about the possible cast for the revival

not familiar with this actor at all really

[LakeGal]

I have never cared for Jeffrey Donovan.  This news does not please me.

[Door County Cherry]

Hmm.  Burn Notice was okay.  There are people who really love him. I don't hate him but I think it's telling that my favorite role of his was when he was a smug, arrogant killer on Monk. (Even though I think I heard he's a nice guy in real life but it just fit so well. )

I think the thing that surprises me the most is his age.  I would think they'd want to add a younger cop to the mix if Anderson is really coming back.  

 

[Xeliou66]

Interesting. I didn’t know they are trying to get Anthony Anderson back as Bernard, I would like that. But I really hope they can get Sam Waterston to return as Jack McCoy on a full time basis though, that would be awesome and would be a huge boost to the show, I’m still not sold that it’s a good idea to bring it back but if they get McCoy on board, well that would greatly change my perception of things.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, LakeGal said:

I have never cared for Jeffrey Donovan.  This news does not please me.

I remember him as the religious zealot of a father who had killed he’s daughter’s teacher on this show. All because she wasn’t a virgin and I can’t recall if she said her teacher had raped her.

BLEAGH.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I remember him as the religious zealot of a father who had killed he’s daughter’s teacher on this show. All because she wasn’t a virgin and I can’t recall if she said her teacher had raped her.

BLEAGH.

He wound up killing the wrong person. It was her counselor who had sex with her. She pinned the blame on her teacher (whose only crime was to teach evolution) to protect the counselor, and her dad killed him. She didn’t come clean until Jack and Connie figured out she was lying.

That nutjob had Melnick as his defense, and we all know she just LOVES defending zealots. Ugh.

[Door County Cherry]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I remember him as the religious zealot of a father who had killed he’s daughter’s teacher on this show. All because she wasn’t a virgin and I can’t recall if she said her teacher had raped her.

BLEAGH.

Ooh right.  Well at least it keeps up the tradition of using people who have been on the show before. 

He was creepy good in that role.  Perhaps too good. 

[Xeliou66]

Oh yes I forgot it was him who played that role in the episode Good Faith - that’s a really good episode and he was great in the role of the murderous religious zealot father. I’ll reiterate what I’ve said before about that episode - fuck Danielle Melnick and fuck her defense - at the end she was all self righteous and said it was the “right principle” fuck you Melnick, trying to give religious fanatics a free pass for murder is NOT the right principle. Her client was a fanatic who was guilty of murder no matter what his motive was. Her defense was laughable and stupid - I loved when Jack said that his faith had lapsed so why hadn’t he burst into flames, and Arthur was right saying that judge should be thrown off the bench for allowing the defense. But yeah that episode just cemented my hatred of Melnick, I already thought she should’ve been disbarred for her actions in Open Season, and Good Faith just cemented my disdain for her.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Xeliou66