Law & Order Discussion Topic (2019 - 2021)

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 10/16/2020 at 3:34 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I loved when Briscoe went after Hellman in the bathroom, he was ready to fight him. I like that episode a lot, I liked seeing the interactions between the various characters.

I watched Charm City the other night, the crossover with Homicide: Life on the Streets, and I thought Lennie was gonna fight Pembleton. He and Rey had been clashing with Frank and Bayliss, and just as they're about to leave to go back to Baltimore there's a very quick exchange before Jack shuts it down.

Frank: "Shove it, okay?"

Lennie: "Shove it where?"

Seriously, Briscoe gets up from the arm of the couch where he's sitting with a look on his face that's like, "Oh, you want to start with me right now?"

 

[Xeliou66]

23 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I watched Charm City the other night, the crossover with Homicide: Life on the Streets, and I thought Lennie was gonna fight Pembleton. He and Rey had been clashing with Frank and Bayliss, and just as they're about to leave to go back to Baltimore there's a very quick exchange before Jack shuts it down.

Frank: "Shove it, okay?"

Lennie: "Shove it where?"

Seriously, Briscoe gets up from the arm of the couch where he's sitting with a look on his face that's like, "Oh, you want to start with me right now?"

 

Yes I remember that well - Pembleton rubbed Briscoe and Curtis the wrong way from the start - Pembleton had something of an abrasive style at times but he was an interesting character. I really like the Homicide crossovers for the interactions between the various characters, the Briscoe/Munch interactions were particularly awesome, but it really fucking sucks that they never show part 2 of the 3 crossovers, and you have to go online or have the Homicide DVD’s to watch them. 

[WendyCR72]

J.K. Simmons, who rocked as Dr.  Emil Skoda, will be playing actor William Frawley, a.k.a. Fred Mertz, in an upcoming I Love Lucy biopic.

[Scarlett45]

On 2/10/2021 at 7:39 PM, WendyCR72 said:

J.K. Simmons, who rocked as Dr.  Emil Skoda, will be playing actor William Frawley, a.k.a. Fred Mertz, in an upcoming I Love Lucy biopic.

That should be a good choice. 

[Xeliou66]

Dazzled was on tonight - I love the quip by Briscoe at the start of this episode, it’s one of his best - when investigating the death of a woman who fell off the roof into her neighbors yard, and Green talks about how nice the yard is, Briscoe replies “no wonder the neighbors keeping dropping in!!”. Makes me laugh every time and Green’s reaction was funny as well. One of my very favorite Briscoe one liners.

The case was interesting and there were a lot of suspects, I did think it was a bit odd how all of the sudden Jack and Serena just happened to think the daughter had motive and was guilty, there was no real evidence that pointed them in that direction. I didn’t really feel sorry for the daughter, her parents hated each other and they weren’t getting back together and it wasn’t really the victim’s fault, and the murder seemed premeditated. I wonder what kind of sentence the killer daughter got? 

[balmz]

18 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Dazzled was on tonight - I love the quip by Briscoe at the start of this episode, it’s one of his best - when investigating the death of a woman who fell off the roof into her neighbors yard, and Green talks about how nice the yard is, Briscoe replies “no wonder the neighbors keeping dropping in!!”. Makes me laugh every time and Green’s reaction was funny as well. One of my very favorite Briscoe one liners.

The case was interesting and there were a lot of suspects, I did think it was a bit odd how all of the sudden Jack and Serena just happened to think the daughter had motive and was guilty, there was no real evidence that pointed them in that direction. I didn’t really feel sorry for the daughter, her parents hated each other and they weren’t getting back together and it wasn’t really the victim’s fault, and the murder seemed premeditated. I wonder what kind of sentence the killer daughter got? 

interesting viewpoint

 

i always wondered if she more wanted the family to stick together because of her little brother more then the parents themselves

 

I think jack and serena since the parents were a tough sell started to wonder if the daughter did since there were a few vague hints, like the daughter finding the mom in the tub and her earlier being protective of the brother, just a theory

 

agreed about the victim, even if she was a golddigger and different statements from people in the episode seem to suggest she was, that does not make it okay for the daughter to kill her

 

one thing i always thought would be hilarious is if it went to trial her lawyer attempted to argue an eed for the daughter but the lawyer's argument is the parents toxicity and fighting caused it ironically, not the lady she killed

 

not sure though the parents would go for that defense since that would make them look really bad in court (though they already did that themselves), maybe the mom might go for  it since when she was confessing, the mom said not to throw her life away

 

another idea i had partially based off the episode who's monkey is it, the little brother actually takes a bus to the da's office during the day and tries to give an impassioned plea for his sister to the da's office, they then call in the parents to get the kid and discuss a deal, the daughter managed to get bail and comes with them, the parents are furious at the son but then jack snaps at the parents to shut up and that the youngest one in the family is the most mature ironically, he offers man 1 which the parents object to but the daughter wants to take the deal, the parents start to  fight with each other again and the daughters snaps at them saying she'd rather be in jail then live with them anymore and that they have killed any part of her which cared about them anymore or cared about wanting to keep the family together which finally makes the parents be quiet as they realize what their fighting has caused

 

the daughter then takes the deal and jack or serena or nora make a quip how the youngest was the only one who really cared about the family and was the most mature in a fighting family

[BW Manilowe]

22 hours ago, balmz said:

I did think it was a bit odd how all of the sudden Jack and Serena just happened to think the daughter had motive and was guilty, there was no real evidence that pointed them in that direction.

Jack & Abbie did the same thing, I thought, in the episode “Panic” (the 1 where the lesbian [Bisexual?] novelist’s manager was accidentally shot & killed while walking down a NYC street with her & it was apparently because of jealousy over an affair the novelist—the real target— was having with either the husband or wife of a married FBI agent couple who were technical advisors for her novels). After finding out the wife was the novelist’s paramour & the husband was actually the spurned romantic partner of both women, instead of the paramour & having the spurned husband suddenly plead guilty to the shooting, which ended up being because Jack & Abbie began suspecting the married couple’s daughter of being the shooter though she was supposed to be babysitting for a neighbor’s baby at the time & had said she never left the apartment. Turns out she did it & her father took the 20 or 25-to life rap to keep her from having to go to juvenile or adult jail.

[CrazyInAlabama]

I always enjoy the episodes that have a disclaimer that they're not based on real life incidents, and are fiction.    Of course, they are based on real cases, and I like seeing how they differ from the real case. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I always enjoy the episodes that have a disclaimer that they're not based on real life incidents, and are fiction.    Of course, they are based on real cases, and I like seeing how they differ from the real case. 

Yes, while “Ripped from the Headlines”, the show put its own spin. Like season Two’s “Wages of Love” with Shirley Knight’s “We were married for 25 YEEEEEEEEERS!” (That will never get old for me 😂😂😂), was from Betty Broderick; Season One’s “The Serpent’s Tooth” based on the Menendez brothers, etc.

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, BW Manilowe said:

Jack & Abbie did the same thing, I thought, in the episode “Panic” (the 1 where the lesbian [Bisexual?] novelist’s manager was accidentally shot & killed while walking down a NYC street with her & it was apparently because of jealousy over an affair the novelist—the real target— was having with either the husband or wife of a married FBI agent couple who were technical advisors for her novels). After finding out the wife was the novelist’s paramour & the husband was actually the spurned romantic partner of both women, instead of the paramour & having the spurned husband suddenly plead guilty to the shooting, which ended up being because Jack & Abbie began suspecting the married couple’s daughter of being the shooter though she was supposed to be babysitting for a neighbor’s baby at the time & had said she never left the apartment. Turns out she did it & her father took the 20 or 25-to life rap to keep her from having to go to juvenile or adult jail.

In Panic, they started contemplating the daughter’s guilt because an officer came forward (that Schiff hilariously referred to as “Officer Van Winkel”) saying that he saw the defendant/father out jogging on the night of the shooting, and so that cast doubt on his guilt, that’s when the prosecutors started suspecting the daughter. The father then decided to plead guilty and Jack and Abbie had no choice but to let him because they couldn’t be sure who committed the crime but it certainly looked like the daughter did. Good episode. I can see the comparison with Dazzled, but in Dazzled the prosecutors just suddenly started suspecting the daughter without anything really pointing in that direction which I thought was a bit odd. 

1 hour ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I always enjoy the episodes that have a disclaimer that they're not based on real life incidents, and are fiction.    Of course, they are based on real cases, and I like seeing how they differ from the real case. 

Most episodes of L&O are based on real cases or at least inspired by real life situations and issues. 

[balmz]

On 2/14/2021 at 6:26 PM, Xeliou66 said:

In Panic, they started contemplating the daughter’s guilt because an officer came forward (that Schiff hilariously referred to as “Officer Van Winkel”) saying that he saw the defendant/father out jogging on the night of the shooting, and so that cast doubt on his guilt, that’s when the prosecutors started suspecting the daughter. The father then decided to plead guilty and Jack and Abbie had no choice but to let him because they couldn’t be sure who committed the crime but it certainly looked like the daughter did. Good episode. I can see the comparison with Dazzled, but in Dazzled the prosecutors just suddenly started suspecting the daughter without anything really pointing in that direction which I thought was a bit odd. 

Most episodes of L&O are based on real cases or at least inspired by real life situations and issues. 

maybe the prosecutors were trying the old saying, throw some stuff at the wall and see what sticks, just a thought

[Xeliou66]

On 2/18/2021 at 10:35 PM, balmz said:

maybe the prosecutors were trying the old saying, throw some stuff at the wall and see what sticks, just a thought

Yeah that’s why they were trying in Panic when it appeared the daughter was guilty, they called the family into the office to try to get to the bottom of the situation, but instead the daughter just ranted at the mom and then the dad said he would plead guilty. And because they couldn’t be definitely sure one way or the other they had to accept the dad’s plea. As Schiff said at the end “I guess we’ll have to wait for PK Todd’s (the victim) next novel to know who did it”. Panic is a good episode, as I’ve said before I love season 10 - arguably my favorite cast lineup and almost every episode was really good. 

[shapeshifter]

14.3 "Patient Zero" (10/08/2003) is airing on ION right now, in which:

Quote

The investigating New York City police detectives [Briscoe and Greene] will have to search for a biochemist with sinister motives after looking into the recent carjacking of a vehicle, which was discovered containing several vials of a deadly virus.

They've already mentioned "Corona virus" twice three times.

Edited February 20, 2021 by shapeshifter

[Xeliou66]

13 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

14.3 "Patient Zero" (10/08/2003) is airing on ION right now, in which:

They've already mentioned "Corona virus" twice three times.

Yeah it’s definitely eerie how that episode centered around a coronavirus outbreak. And that episode has a completely infuriating ending with the pathetic bitch of a wife lying for her evil child murdering husband and letting him get away with it. Fuck both of them. 

And the opening contains a classic Briscoe one liner when the officer says the perp drove off like “bat out of H E double hockey sticks” and Briscoe replies “what precinct are you from, Sesame Street?”. 

[balmz]

44 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

 

And the opening contains a classic Briscoe one liner when the officer says the perp drove off like “bat out of H E double hockey sticks” and Briscoe replies “what precinct are you from, Sesame Street?”. 

heh i was just remembering that today and was debating making a post related to it

 

what are your favourite really minor characters in the show's history, like not perps or victims or the police or da people but just really minor one off characters

 

one amusing one was back with logan and his partner, they need pictures that a guy developed and then logan has to pay for it as money is tight for the owner, not sure why but it was amusing to me

[Xeliou66]

On 2/20/2021 at 10:55 PM, balmz said:

heh i was just remembering that today and was debating making a post related to it

 

what are your favourite really minor characters in the show's history, like not perps or victims or the police or da people but just really minor one off characters

 

one amusing one was back with logan and his partner, they need pictures that a guy developed and then logan has to pay for it as money is tight for the owner, not sure why but it was amusing to me

Good question about minor one off characters - here are some of my favorites 

Pete, the mentally challenged guy from the season 19 episode Challenged who turned out to be the brother of the victim and of the killer, he was a really likeable, memorable character who helped them solve the case - I was glad his mother stood up for him in the end, his dad was an ass, I also liked Lupo’s compassion for Pete. He’s one of my favorite one off characters.

 Mike Bodack, the suspect/turned witness from We Like Mike, he was memorable and I liked him a lot. Also the donut shop owner from that episode that Briscoe and Curtis interviewed was quite a cranky, memorable guy. 

The medical examiner from the very first episode aired, Prescription for Death, who testified and said something like “it’s possible death rays from Mars could’ve killed her”. He only appeared in that episode but I liked him a lot. 

I’m sure I’ll come up with more later 

BTW, what episode was it that you are describing with Logan needing the pictures developed? I’m drawing a blank on that. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Xeliou66

[balmz]

36 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Good question about minor one off characters - here are some of my favorites 

Pete, the mentally challenged guy from the season 19 episode Challenged who turned out to be the brother of the victim and the killer, he was a really likeable, memorable character who helped them solve the case - I was glad his mother stood up for him in the end, his dad was an ass, I also liked Lupo’s compassion for Pete. He’s one of my favorite one off characters.

 Mike Bodack, the suspect/turned witness from We Like Mike, he was memorable and I liked him a lot. Also the donut shop owner from that episode that Briscoe and Curtis interviewed was quite a cranky, memorable guy. 

The medical examiner from the very first episode aired, Prescription for Death, who testified and said something like “it’s possible death rays from Mars could’ve killed her”. He only appeared in that episode but I liked him a lot. 

I’m sure I’ll come up with more later 

BTW, what episode was it that you are describing with Logan needing the pictures developed? I’m drawing a blank on that. 

don't remember it off hand sadly

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

The medical examiner from the very first episode aired, Prescription for Death, who testified and said something like “it’s possible death rays from Mars could’ve killed her”. He only appeared in that episode but I liked him a lot. 

“It’s possible death rays from Mars could’ve killed her.”  
Heh. Great line. 

[KHenry14]

Watching "Bounty" today. Show begins with a writer in a sleezy hotel who cant write because of loud metal music from the next room. He goes nuts and pounds on the door and discovers a dead body.

Later upon investigating the murder, Ed calls the writer 'F. Scott FitzStupid"    LOL, I love that line

Edited March 4, 2021 by KHenry14

[Xeliou66]

I watched Bounty as well tonight, and I love Green’s “F Scott Fitzstupid” line, that was hilarious. 

Bounty is a great episode, I’ve always been a bit puzzled by the ending though, with how Kellogg immediately took a plea when McCoy revealed they knew about his relationship with Denise, a white woman, I guess he thought the jury wouldn’t buy his defense about the pressures of affirmative action when they realized he was involved with a white woman, but I wasn’t so sure how connected the 2 things were. 

Dworkin was awesome as usual in this episode - his episodes are always entertaining, he only appeared in 5 episodes, 3 on the Mothership and 2 on SVU, but he’s one of the most memorable defense lawyers in the series. 

I love season 14 - it’s one of the very best seasons of L&O, so many terrific episodes. It’s definitely in my top 3-4 seasons of L&O.

[Xeliou66]

I watched Good Faith tonight, while I like the episode a lot overall and think it’s one of the better season 17 episodes (17 is the worst L&O season in my book but still better than the vast majority of the crap on tv), Melnick fucking infuriates me in this one (as she did plenty of times). She acted like it was the “right principle” to try to get a religious nutbag off the hook for murder simply because he believed it was justified due to religion, and that’s downright insane. As Jack said “if religious beliefs justify murder let’s give a free pass to Osama Bin Laden”. Melnick acted like she had the moral high ground when all she was arguing is that religious zealots should be free to commit murder in the name of their faith. I really can’t stand Melnick, she was so self righteous and smug. 

I had mixed feelings about the killer’s daughter - on one hand I felt sympathy for her as her dad had really screwed her up with his religious zealotry and her guidance counselor likely took advantage of her state so he could have sex with her, but on the other hand she told her dad the victim was the one she was having sex with knowing how unhinged her dad was and he got killed as a result. 

I liked the pairing of McCoy and Rubirosa on the legal side, Rubirosa was a big improvement over Serena and Borgia in that role. But Cassady sucked and had no chemistry with anyone and really dragged season 17 down. 

[shapeshifter]

48 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Melnick fucking infuriates me in this one (as she did plenty of times). She acted like it was the “right principle” to try to get a religious nutbag off the hook for murder simply because he believed it was justified due to religion, and that’s downright insane.

Doesn’t Melnick always wind up being a loser who really does lose out?

[Xeliou66]

39 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Doesn’t Melnick always wind up being a loser who really does lose out?

I hate Melnick - not only was she smug and self righteous, but she should’ve been disbarred after the events of Open Season when she blatantly disregarded a court order and was completely unapologetic about it. It made me sick that McCoy went to bat for her and got her out of trouble, and I didn’t feel any sympathy for her when she got shot at the end. 

And in Good Faith, Melnick acted like she had the moral high ground when all she was doing was trying to get a murderous religious zealot off the hook, and even when the truth came out about why her client really killed the victim, she still said it was the “right principle, wrong client”. What principle is that, giving religious fanatics a free pass for murder? Fuck Melnick. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Has anyone noticed how much the actress on the series FBI, Missy Peregrym, resembles Carmichael on L&O (Angie Harmon)? Same mannerisms too.  This is an older clip, but she resembles her more now. 
 

 

 

[shapeshifter]

22 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Has anyone noticed how much the actress on the series FBI, Missy Peregrym, resembles Carmichael on L&O (Angie Harmon)? Same mannerisms too.  This is an older clip, but she resembles her more now. 

 

Definitely see it here, but not when I'm watching them on screen. Different personas? 

Edited March 11, 2021 by shapeshifter

[SunnyBeBe]

I thought it the first time I saw her.  I wondered if they were related.   Odd too, both on Dick Wolff tv shows.  

[shapeshifter]

The "Is this because I'm a lesbian?" "No. Of course not." "Good." dialogue just re-aired.
I have now reached the point where I can laugh at the ridiculously bad writing. 
But how did the actors deliver it?

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 3/9/2021 at 9:54 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Has anyone noticed how much the actress on the series FBI, Missy Peregrym, resembles Carmichael on L&O (Angie Harmon)? Same mannerisms too.  This is an older clip, but she resembles her more now. 
 

 

 

I don't see it.

[wknt3]

On 3/11/2021 at 11:02 AM, shapeshifter said:

The "Is this because I'm a lesbian?" "No. Of course not." "Good." dialogue just re-aired. ...
But how did the actors deliver it?

Woodenly and embarrassedly, respectively.

Edited March 12, 2021 by wknt3
typo

[Xeliou66]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

The "Is this because I'm a lesbian?" "No. Of course not." "Good." dialogue just re-aired.
I have now reached the point where I can laugh at the ridiculously bad writing. 
But how did the actors deliver it?

 

25 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

Woodenly and and embarrassedly, respectively.

Yeah that whole scene was just poorly done, something that can rarely be said about the Mothership. It was stupid to throw in the reveal that Serena was a lesbian in her final scene, it was done just for shock value. And the actors looked embarrassed to be delivering the lines. 

I actually didn’t think it was totally out of the blue that Serena was a lesbian, given how she acted in cases that involved the LGBT community. But the way they revealed it was clumsy and lousy. I don’t think Arthur had any clue she was a lesbian though. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

I actually didn’t think it was totally out of the blue that Serena was a lesbian, given how she acted in cases that involved the LGBT community. But the way they revealed it was clumsy and lousy. I don’t think Arthur had any clue she was a lesbian though. 

Not to mention the question didn't make any sense.  She knew exactly why she was being fired.  She knew the issues they had with her stemming from this case in particular.  And it wasn't even an LGBtQ case, IIRC.  If they wanted that to seem like a reasonable question they should have had a different case that week.  It was just so out of the blue.

I always wanted to see Serena show up in a later episode as a defense attorney.  Where her client was innocent.

[Xeliou66]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Not to mention the question didn't make any sense.  She knew exactly why she was being fired.  She knew the issues they had with her stemming from this case in particular.  And it wasn't even an LGBtQ case, IIRC.  If they wanted that to seem like a reasonable question they should have had a different case that week.  It was just so out of the blue.

I always wanted to see Serena show up in a later episode as a defense attorney.  Where her client was innocent.

Exactly, it didn’t make sense in context because she was being fired for being overly sympathetic towards a defendant (something which happened several times with Serena), and no the case had nothing to do with the LGBT community, it was about the hip hop mogul that was killed and Serena was sympathetic to the defendant who was at the scene with his friend who committed the murder. Serena was simply too soft to be a prosecutor, and her and Arthur just flat out didn’t get along most of the time due to their drastically different views, their relationship was by far the most hostile relationship between any of the main characters in L&O. So it wasn’t surprising that Arthur wound up firing her, in fact it made a lot of sense. The lesbian revelation was just poorly done.

I wish Serena had come back as a defense attorney as well, she would’ve made a good one, and it would’ve been fun to see her go up against McCoy. 

[wknt3]

23 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

 

Yeah that whole scene was just poorly done, something that can rarely be said about the Mothership. It was stupid to throw in the reveal that Serena was a lesbian in her final scene, it was done just for shock value. And the actors looked embarrassed to be delivering the lines. 

Fred Thompson did. I don't think Rohm did, but given how poorly she conveys any sort of emotion who knows?

Quote

I actually didn’t think it was totally out of the blue that Serena was a lesbian, given how she acted in cases that involved the LGBT community. But the way they revealed it was clumsy and lousy. I don’t think Arthur had any clue she was a lesbian though.

I agree. I've said before that this was a poorly done attempt to recapture the jolt of the McCoy/Kincaid reveal and get some buzz.  I don't think that it was out of the blue or made up just for that episode as there are just too many little moments that support it, and nothing to contradict it. It's too bad that they took all that groundwork and squandered it.
 

22 hours ago, Katy M said:

Not to mention the question didn't make any sense.  She knew exactly why she was being fired.  She knew the issues they had with her stemming from this case in particular.  And it wasn't even an LGBtQ case, IIRC.  If they wanted that to seem like a reasonable question they should have had a different case that week.  It was just so out of the blue.

I always wanted to see Serena show up in a later episode as a defense attorney.  Where her client was innocent.

I have less than zero interest in seeing Serena as a defense attorney. She was portrayed as competent, but unlike the best ADAs like Kincaid, Carmichael, Ross, or Rubirosa there was never the sense she was McCoy's legal and intellectual equal. Plus there is the whole think that Rohm had no chemistry with any of the other actors.
 

22 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

 Serena was simply too soft to be a prosecutor, and her and Arthur just flat out didn’t get along most of the time due to their drastically different views, their relationship was by far the most hostile relationship between any of the main characters in L&O.

By far? What about Van Buren and Cassidy? I mean I know Season 17 is forgettable, but...

[Xeliou66]

6 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

Fred Thompson did. I don't think Rohm did, but given how poorly she conveys any sort of emotion who knows?

I agree. I've said before that this was a poorly done attempt to recapture the jolt of the McCoy/Kincaid reveal and get some buzz.  I don't think that it was out of the blue or made up just for that episode as there are just too many little moments that support it, and nothing to contradict it. It's too bad that they took all that groundwork and squandered it.
 

I have less than zero interest in seeing Serena as a defense attorney. She was portrayed as competent, but unlike the best ADAs like Kincaid, Carmichael, Ross, or Rubirosa there was never the sense she was McCoy's legal and intellectual equal. Plus there is the whole think that Rohm had no chemistry with any of the other actors.
 

By far? What about Van Buren and Cassidy? I mean I know Season 17 is forgettable, but...

Was there a huge buzz about the McCoy/Kincaid reveal? That they had a relationship was only confirmed after Claire’s death, in the season 9 episode Sideshow I believe. 

You’re right about their being some hostility between Van Buren and Cassady, but it was mainly one sided, Cassady had nothing against Van Buren, Van Buren just wanted a more qualified and competent detective than Cassady, and really they only had major issues in 2 episodes, the first and last episodes of season 17. Serena and Arthur on the other hand had routine major disagreements and seemed to have a genuine disdain for each other, it was very noticeable and jarring compared to how most of the main characters got along well and at least respected each other even when they had disagreements, Serena and Arthur just flat out didn’t like each other. 

[wknt3]

12 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Was there a huge buzz about the McCoy/Kincaid reveal? That they had a relationship was only confirmed after Claire’s death, in the season 9 episode Sideshow I believe.

I don't think there was a huge buzz about McCoy/Kincaid and you are correct that they didn't explicitly confirm it until "Sideshow". It was well received though and did make a lot of viewers realize that there was more to the show than just the COTW that drove the plots and just because they didn't focus on soapy personal stories didn't mean they were ignoring building real complex fully realized characters. They did want to generate buzz with this reveal though. It was Dick Wolf's idea to use it in writing her off and he actually takes credit for writing the scene and thinks it was great "water cooler" television. No such thing as bad publicity and all that.

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, wknt3 said:

Quote

actually didn’t think it was totally out of the blue that Serena was a lesbian, given how she acted in cases that involved the LGBT community. But the way they revealed it was clumsy and lousy…

I agree. I've said before that this was a poorly done attempt to recapture the jolt of the McCoy/Kincaid reveal and get some buzz.  I don't think that it was out of the blue or made up just for that episode as there are just too many little moments that support it, and nothing to contradict it. It's too bad that they took all that groundwork and squandered it.

Now thinking again about the "Is this because I'm a lesbian?" "No. Of course not." "Good." lines, I realize they would have worked if it was between Serena and Jack, with Jack delivering the news on Arthur’s behalf. 
Right!?!?
Maybe that’s how they were originally, and then someone thought it was wrong for Jack to be delivering the lines (maybe even Wolf himself), so they shot them between Serena and Arthur, and the rest is Cringe History. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by shapeshifter

[Xeliou66]

14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Now thinking again about the "Is this because I'm a lesbian?" "No. Of course not." "Good." lines, I realize they would have worked if it was between Serena and Jack, with Jack delivering the news on Arthur’s behalf. 
Right!?!?
Maybe that’s how they were originally, and then someone thought it was wrong for Jack to be delivering the lines (maybe even Wolf himself), so they shot them between Serena and Arthur, and the rest is Cringe History. 

I don’t really think it would’ve worked between Serena and Jack, because Jack didn’t have the power to fire Serena, and I definitely think Arthur would fire her face to face, he wouldn’t have Jack deliver the news on his behalf. And the dialogue would’ve been just as cringeworthy no matter who she was talking to. 

[txhorns79]

On 3/12/2021 at 8:08 PM, wknt3 said:

She was portrayed as competent, but unlike the best ADAs like Kincaid, Carmichael, Ross, or Rubirosa there was never the sense she was McCoy's legal and intellectual equal.

Honestly, the only assistant who I thought might come close to equaling Jack's legal acumen was Ross because she was older and came to the office with a lot of experience.  As much as I like Kincaid, Carmichael and Rubirosa, Jack had 20+ years experience on them.  I mean, Jack is the Executive ADA, which at least within the L&O world, appeared to essentially be the second in command.  His assistants were all intelligent, capable attorneys, but my impression of them was they were mostly lawyers with a couple of years under their belt, and had a lot to learn. 

[Xeliou66]

25 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Honestly, the only assistant who I thought might come close to equaling Jack's legal acumen was Ross because she was older and came to the office with a lot of experience.  As much as I like Kincaid, Carmichael and Rubirosa, Jack had 20+ years experience on them.  I mean, Jack is the Executive ADA, which at least within the L&O world, appeared to essentially be the second in command.  His assistants were all intelligent, capable attorneys, but my impression of them was they were mostly lawyers with a couple of years under their belt, and had a lot to learn. 

I don’t exactly agree - I thought a lot of the female ADA’s were very sharp lawyers and we got to see them show off their abilities on occasion when they would sometimes take the lead on doing questioning or something. While Jack was older than them and had more experience and is a great lawyer, I thought Ross, Carmichael, Rubirosa and Kincaid were were very sharp and could hold their own with Jack. Serena and Borgia were the only 2 that I didn’t think were as good but that may have been because they had very little personality and were dull. Robinette was very good as well, although we didn’t see him work with McCoy, he held his own against him as a defense lawyer. 

So while I know some people view the ADA’s as being just pretty faces who didn’t add much, I disagree, I thought they added a lot and most of them were very sharp. 

[shapeshifter]

16.1 "Red Ball"--

Quote

When a five-year-old girl is abducted from her mother in broad daylight during an apparent car jacking, Detectives Fontana and Green canvass the streets, only to uncover a more sinister motive when they discover the car intact but no trace of the girl. The investigators soon unearth an ex-convict with the child's bloodied dress who refuses to talk until his release is guaranteed. With time and leads running out and the prospect of the girl's safe return looking unlikely, EADA McCoy and ADA Borgia consider a deal with severe legal and political ramifications.

--examines legal and moral ethics of making deals within the context of dealing with an unscrupulous deviant criminal to maybe save the life of a child. The script covers a lot of ground in 42 minutes, from Van Buren pulling the plug on the interrogation when the perp who knows the whereabouts of the missing child asks for a lawyer, to the kidnapper's lawyer's choices, focusing on Jack's choices, as well as Arthur Branche's politically tinged thoughts, and ultimately the judge's.

One nit to pick: When they finally make the deal with the perp to learn the location of the kidnapped child, he reveals that she is in a garage at his mother's house. Really? Van Buren, Fontana, Greene, et al. wouldn't have already banged on that door? 

Also, an almost amusing coda to watch now: Branch tells then-Executive Assistant District Attorney (EADA) Jack he will never make DA, which Jack is exactly 2 seasons later.

 

 

 

[Xeliou66]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

16.1 "Red Ball"--

--examines legal and moral ethics of making deals within the context of dealing with an unscrupulous deviant criminal to maybe save the life of a child. The script covers a lot of ground in 42 minutes, from Van Buren pulling the plug on the interrogation when the perp who knows the whereabouts of the missing child asks for a lawyer, to the kidnapper's lawyer's choices, focusing on Jack's choices, as well as Arthur Branche's politically tinged thoughts, and ultimately the judge's.

One nit to pick: When they finally make the deal with the perp to learn the location of the kidnapped child, he reveals that she is in a garage at his mother's house. Really? Van Buren, Fontana, Greene, et al. wouldn't have already banged on that door? 

Also, an almost amusing coda to watch now: Branch tells then-Executive Assistant District Attorney (EADA) Jack he will never make DA, which Jack is exactly 2 seasons later.

 

 

 

Yeah it’s been a while since I’ve seen that episode, it’s a pretty good episode, but yeah I remember thinking it was absurd that the police hadn’t already checked every property belonging to the kidnapper or relatives of the kidnapper in the area, I mean they had an all hands on deck search going for the missing kid but they didn’t bother to search property in the area belonging to the kidnapper’s mother? That was ridiculous.

One thing that I did like in the episode was how they mentioned Cragen and SVU at the start, with an officer telling Van Buren Cragen had reached out and offered SVU’s assistance. Very nice continuity. 

[shapeshifter]

Recently I caught 2 different crossover episodes that paired Lennie with Munch from SVU and wondered if at the time they were considering a spinoff ––which I don’t think would have worked. They’re too much alike. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by shapeshifter
typo

[Xeliou66]

On 3/16/2021 at 9:46 PM, shapeshifter said:

Recently I caught 2 different crossover episodes that paired Lennie with Munch from SVU and wondered if at the time they were considering a spinoff ––which I don’t think would have worked. They’re too much alike. 

Yeah Briscoe and Munch were very similar, I don’t think having them together in every episode of a show would’ve worked, but it was always entertaining when they worked a case together. It just pisses me off to no end how we don’t get to see both parts of the crossover episodes. 

[balmz]

this has been posted on reddit several times and i thought it'd be interesting to get people's pov here

 

what was your thoughts on carmichael's treatment of the girl in punk?

a fair amount of people on reddit really objected to how she acted towards the girl who had the guy killed

for me i am not sure myself but here's a few interesting things from reddit and tvtropes(not mine)

 

Wow, Carmichael really has it in for that girl.

She committed a minor offence that would not normally see time but was put away because Carmichael suspected she knew more and was holding back. As a result, the poor girl ended up being in situations beyond her control that she never would have been in otherwise and her life got further screwed up.

Instead of acknowledging any of this Carmichael doubles down on insisting she is bad and deserves to be in prison. She doesn’t even bother to learn the how or why of the further offences she committed in prison. McCoy’s invitation for her to cross examine the girl is basically so she can be confronted by the context and extenuating circumstances that she refused to listen to before.

In the end it’s the girls reaction on cross to being raped that gets to Carmichael and makes her give some leeway but I kinda wish she would have eased up just from realising she had been wrong about the girl without her reaction to being raped as the reason. Also that prison is seriously messed up

 

from tv tropes about the girl on punk

Alice Simonelli from "Punk". She wouldn't stop screaming that Abbie Carmichael framed her for drug possession, even though her story for what happened that night was ridiculous. She killed a prison guard who was raping her and kept her under his thumb by threatening to send her to another prison, which actually would have solved her problem and gotten her away from her abuser, but she said she couldn't let it happen because the other prison was too far away from her daughter. Except, she was previously up for a work-release program which would have allowed her to be with her daughter again, but was removed from the program when she was caught smoking marijuana. So to recap, spending time with her daughter was so important that she was willing to kill for her, she just wasn't willing to stop doing drugs for her.

It is interesting to see another perspective but I wouldn’t say it’s an entirely accurate one.

Her motive for killing the guard was because, in addition to raping her repeatedly, he had another guard track down and approach her daughter at a park as a way to threaten her after she tried to get him to stop. She didn’t have him killed to spend time with her daughter, she had him killed because he was threatening both herself and her daughter.

She was arrested for allegedly driving a guy to a drug deal, he took off and she was left with a car that had small amount of drugs in it and money with cocaine residue on it in her pocket. Her story was she was just giving the guy a lift, didn’t know his name, and he gave her the money for gas. It’s unlikely but I wouldn’t say it was ridiculous.

She does yell at Carmichael that she ruined her life a lot but it’s not constant and in half the time Carmichael is saying sarcastic judgemental stuff to provoke her. Carmichael is the one who decided to give her jail time for a first time/minor offence because she said she didn’t know the other guys name. Given she’s just spent the past few months being raped and sexually abused in prison I see why she wouldn't be happy to see Carmichael reappear and act all judgemental.

Sorry didn’t mean to write so much I just fell into essay writing mode. I love exploring tvtropes though I’ve tried to avoid looking up the law and order pages except for the recaps on episodes I already watched. Am I right in thinking it’s from a ymmv page?

 

 

so what are your thoughts?

 

 

[Xeliou66]

I had mixed feelings about Punk and Abbie’s behavior in the episode - on one hand I thought she was overly harsh and lacking sympathy towards Alice, Alice deserved more sympathy from her and I understood why Alice did what she did. On the other hand, Alice was partially responsible for her problems. On the whole, I would say I found Abbie to be overly harsh towards Alice, she just didn’t seem understanding at all. 
I like the episode a lot, it’s an interesting case, and I didn’t find the victim sympathetic at all, but of course vigilante justice and taking the law into your own hands can’t be tolerated. It’s been a while since I’ve seen the episode, but I found Abbie to somewhat overboard, I sometimes found Abbie to be overly harsh even though I liked her overall.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 3/23/2021 at 2:57 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I had mixed feelings about Punk and Abbie’s behavior in the episode - on one hand I thought she was overly harsh and lacking sympathy towards Alice, Alice deserved more sympathy from her and I understood why Alice did what she did. On the other hand, Alice was partially responsible for her problems. On the whole, I would say I found Abbie to be overly harsh towards Alice, she just didn’t seem understanding at all.

Abbie actually went a little out of her way to have a talk with Alice's parents, who said they didn't know how things went the way they did. She had some kind of scholarship to go to school, but then dropped out, possibly because she got pregnant but I can't recall. While behind bars, she fell in with a gang, and another woman in the gang gave her a contact to have the hit on the guard done. He did have someone approach her daughter with a condom, and the girl told her grandparents, who told Alice what happened. It's worth noting that Melnick represented Alice (and for once wasn't that annoying), but Alice putting most of the fault on Abbie's shoulders was a bit much. She was given an opportunity for a lighter sentence in exchange for testimony against the guy who was in the car with her, and she turned it down. That wasn't Abbie's doing, and Alice could have chosen to just not give the guy a lift to wherever. It's not in the job description to be helpful if the accused person acts like they don't want to help themselves. Unless you're Serena Southerlyn. 🙂

[shapeshifter]

“Punk” seemed to me to be written to highlight women incarcerated for failing to give incriminating evidence about male drug dealers and how this practice typically destroys the women’s lives. I saw the episode after hearing about a similar case from my daughter who was a volunteer educator in jails during college and later. The incarcerated woman my daughter was tutoring was an exceptionally bright Southeast Asian immigrant who was on track to get her GED until she instead “graduated” from jail to prison because she would not give evidence against her brother. 

[wknt3]

On 3/25/2021 at 1:13 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

 It's not in the job description to be helpful if the accused person acts like they don't want to help themselves. Unless you're Serena Southerlyn. 🙂

Is this because she's a lesbian?

[shapeshifter]

17.19 "Fallout" re-aired on ION, which, BTW, is now running L&O 5am-11am EDT M-Thu, and 5am-9am EDT Sat-Sun.
From https://lawandorder.fandom.com/wiki/Fallout: 

Quote

Green and Cassady get mixed up with the Russian consulate after Peter Rostov dies of ricin poisoning. Their investigation leads them first to his work, where they learn he spent a great deal of time traveling back and forth between Russia, and secondly to his brother, Karl. It isn't long before they link the Rostov brothers to an illegal prostitution ring trafficking in young Russian woman, but McCoy is faced with trying to get the remaining Rostov brother to testify so he can prosecute Brezin, the father of one of the trafficked girls who is also ex-KGB. They eventually learn that the girl is not dead as believed but was saved by the man who was ordered to kill her. Things don't seem to be going well until they realize that the father was waiting for Rostov for over an hour and thus knew where to find him. They question the man who held the girl captive after rescuing her and he reveals that he told the man under threat. While he could have told him his daughter was still alive, he didn't because the man had sold her to Rostov. Confronted by this, the man breaks down and explains that he was a Moscow police officer after leaving the KGB and when he refused a bribe, Rostov kidnapped his daughters to force him to comply. He eventually agreed to only return one of them and the man chose to save his younger daughter since she was weaker and wouldn't be able to survive what she'd be put through. When he thought his daughter got killed, he blamed himself and went for revenge. A sympathetic McCoy offers a deal of ten years in prison, the best he can offer and the man accepts it despite his lawyer's protests.

Two things about the episode that stood out to me:

• When Green and Cassady chase the ex-KGB, ricin-poisoning, father (Brezin) of a trafficked girl to the doorsteps of the Russian Consulate, and then try to convince the Consul to not allow Brezin to take refuge in the Consulate, although Green (Jesse L. Martin) looks desperate to prevent the escape of Brezin into the Consulate, Green doesn't even mention that Brezin is wanted for using weapons-grade Ricin to murder someone. Wouldn't Green mention this in hopes that the Russian Consulate guys wouldn't want to die by even accidental ricin poisoning and so would block Brezin's entry? 
   
• Near the end of the episode, when Brezin takes the guilty plea, he comes across as pitiful and sympathetic to both McCoy and the audience. The international, multi-lingual actor, Mark Ivanir, pulls this off where many others could not, given what we know of the character's role in his daughters' trafficking. The actor's varied background includes an actor-grandma and a stint as a professional clown (wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Ivanir).

Edited March 29, 2021 by shapeshifter

[Xeliou66]

Fallout is a pretty good episode, one of season 17’s stronger outings. I found the defendant sympathetic, he was placed in an impossible position basically, but vigilante justice isn’t okay and by poisoning his victim with ricin, he potentially exposed others to it and could’ve caused a panic. His final sentence of 10 years was fair I thought.

It’s a good episode, I liked seeing McCoy and Branch deal with the Russian consulate, and I liked seeing Jack’s daughter at the end, it was the only time in the show we ever saw her. While Detective Beauty Queen sucked and dragged the season down, I liked the McCoy/Rubirosa/Branch legal side, Rubirosa was a great addition and was so much better than Borgia or Serena.

Good point about them not mentioning the ricin poisoning to the Consulate, but I’m sure the Consulate found out about it soon afterwards, I doubt it would’ve changed their minds.