All Episodes Talk

[Ms Blue Jay]

Daphne knew that Martin had been a cop, but she thought that Frasier was a florist.

There was also that mess where she wanted to say no to Donnie's proposal because she pictured a man with a red bow tie.  That actually never materialized.  Niles just went ahead and bought one and wore it after hearing about the dream.

She also had this vision:

Daphne gets another vision of her mystery man holding a dragon. She interprets this as a sign that everyone was right and it was just a representation of her fears. The episode then cuts to Niles in his office opening the present Roz got him: a statue of a dragon.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ailianna]

Did the red bowtie never materialize or was Niles fulfilling it when he wore it? Was it self-fulfilling or just Nikes being a "jackass"? The world may never know.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Ailianna said:

Did the red bowtie never materialize or was Niles fulfilling it when he wore it? Was it self-fulfilling or just Nikes being a "jackass"? The world may never know.

Depends on how you feel about Niles towards Daphne. I find him really creepy. So I think he was a jackass because Daphne came to him for help and instead of really helping her his first reaction was to say he didn't have a red bowtie. Then later shows up wearing one. While Frasier actually did help Daphne. 

[jird]

11 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Depends on how you feel about Niles towards Daphne. I find him really creepy. So I think he was a jackass because Daphne came to him for help and instead of really helping her his first reaction was to say he didn't have a red bowtie. Then later shows up wearing one. While Frasier actually did help Daphne. 

Yeah, all the Niles behavior toward Daphne does not hold up well. I'm glad they at least had the one episode where Frasier made him address some of that. "You were in love at her" sums up so much.

[Mabinogia]

6 hours ago, jird said:

Yeah, all the Niles behavior toward Daphne does not hold up well. I'm glad they at least had the one episode where Frasier made him address some of that. "You were in love at her" sums up so much.

I ship Niles and Daphne hard, but I do agree that the storyline doesn't hold up well, but I loved the actors chemistry together so I still ship them, mainly because they're not real. If they were real I'd tell Daphne to be very careful around Niles. 

[StarBrand]

On 11/21/2022 at 11:41 PM, andromeda331 said:

So I think he was a jackass because Daphne came to him for help and instead of really helping her his first reaction was to say he didn't have a red bowtie.

Yes, his first instinct was to selfishly push Daphne towards turning Donny down as well as trying blatently to be the man in her visions, despite him not being a believer himself. Frasier had to remind him that if he was really interested in Daphne's happiness, he wouldn't stand in the way of her happiness, even if that meant she married another man. 

[tessaray]

I bounce between cheering for Daphne and Niles and finding his behavior over the years creepy. But to be fair to Niles, at the beginning of that conversation, he's almost giddy thinking that she is working up to naming him and he  gets ahead of himself. It's a nice bit of acting. 

During most of the show, Niles is the stickler for psychiatric ethics and Frasier not as much so this episode was good for flipping that around.

[Ailianna]

I have a similar problem. Knowing Niles, and being utterly charmed by David Hyde Pierce, I know Daphne is safe and he would genuinely never hurt her.

BUT without those two factors (and DHP is the overwhelming factor), it would be creepy, scary, and signs of a horrible and dangerous obsession. They even call it out when Daphne says a secret admired is sick and creepy, in the one where Frasier gets the gifts from Maris to Niles by mistake and thinks he has a secret admirer.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Ailianna

[andromeda331]

I love Niles except for when it comes to Daphne. The rest of the time he's really great. 

[andidante]

10 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I love Niles except for when it comes to Daphne. The rest of the time he's really great. 

I agree! I felt he was a bit creepy and obsessed with her I actually liked her with Donny. 

[chessiegal]

Donny was a scumbag. He's the kind of lawyer that gives lawyers a bad name. Niles and Daphne all the way.

[Ailianna]

9 hours ago, chessiegal said:

Donny was a scumbag. He's the kind of lawyer that gives lawyers a bad name. Niles and Daphne all the way.

Can you refresh my memory as to specific things Donny did that make you think he's a scumbag?

Edited November 26, 2022 by Ailianna

[Bort]

27 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

Can you refresh my memory as to specific things Donny did that make you think he's a scumbag?

Donny filed lawsuits against Daphne and Frasier after Daphne jilted him. Then he married someone else later and tried to get back together with Daphne right in front of the new wife. He became a little unhinged.

[Ailianna]

Was he married to Bridget or just engaged? I agree that was tacky and excessive, but not related to his status as a lawyer. 

The lawsuits were poor judgment and obviously a reaction from the pain of being jilted. But anyone could have sued by hiring a lawyer. And the suits would have been thrown out, or dropped pretty quickly anyway as there's a lot of law on what you can or cannot do regarding a broken engagement. Not really a reflection of his lawyering. Or of his overall personality. The bits we saw of his actual lawyering didn't seem egregious.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I never liked Donny either.  He had moments of sweetness and kindness, but overall I just thought he was icky.  I never got over that first meeting in his office with Niles and Frasier where he's naked from the waist down by the end of it.

[Bethany]

I never really thought too long or hard about the way Niles could sometimes behave with Daphne.  To me it was obvious that Niles and Daphne getting together was always going to be the end game so I was rooting for those crazy kids all the way.  Of course it did help that they made Maris so totally unbearable right from the start.  It would have been a whole 'nother ballgame for me if they hadn't chosen to do that. 

I guess they went the same route with Donny too - turned him from being a little over the top and boorish but essentially a kind person into a total jerk who used his legal skills to create problems for Daphne and then  turned around and got married to someone else - did they ever say how that marriage turned out?  Can't remember.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Elizabeth Anne

[Athena]

Donny was uncouth from the get-go. He also didn't really seem to know Daphne very well. He didn't know her favourite brother and he had a lot of surprises for her that made their relationship chaotic. Donny showed tendencies of love bombing Daphne. He obviously wanted to start a family fast and that was the reason his and Roz's relationship didn't last. I don't think Daphne and Donny would have lasted even if you take out Niles from the equation.

[peacheslatour]

On 11/20/2022 at 1:11 PM, MisterGlass said:

Daphne could sense the approach of Lilith, so she did have her moments.

To be fair, Martin got chills when she approached and Eddie would hide. She was just that evil.😅

[tessaray]

I'm a Lilith fan. If Bebe Neuwirth doesn't appear somewhere in the reboot, I cry foul. 🙂

[andromeda331]

1 minute ago, tessaray said:

I'm a Lilith fan. If Bebe Neuwirth doesn't appear in the reboot, I cry foul. 🙂

So am I. I still think Lilith is still the perfect woman for Frasier. 

[StarBrand]

Watched "Moon Dance" again-which was Kelsey Grammar's directorial debut. I think it's the first time the writers really gave romantic pathos to Niles' crush on Daphne.  Daphne decides, at the ball, to help Niles put in a show to disprove his "friends" perception of him as being a pathetic loser post-Maris, (which they certainly did) not realizing that her act, when revealed, completely devestated him.  He was legitimately having the time of his life, completely elated, thinking at long last he had what he wanted...(small wonder this incident was etched forever in his mind in regards to her) only to realize he was no closer than he'd ever been.  Prior to Daphne accepting Donny's proposal in front of him, I don't think we'd ever see Niles look so crestfallen.

What also amazes me, is that no less than eight (!!) writers are credited, which usually signals an episode will be a mess, but that's not what it is at all.  Doesn't surprise me at all to find it's a favourite of DHP and Leeves.

[StarBrand]

On 11/27/2022 at 2:12 PM, andromeda331 said:

Lilith is still the perfect woman for Frasier.

She is, in many ways-she's a hell of a lot like him, and the one he turned to for advice when he questioned to himself if he was capable of allowing himself happiness.  Grammar and Neuworth have amazing chemistry together onscreen no matter what the state of their relationship is.

[Annber03]

13 hours ago, StarBrand said:

What also amazes me, is that no less than eight (!!) writers are credited, which usually signals an episode will be a mess, but that's not what it is at all.  Doesn't surprise me at all to find it's a favourite of DHP and Leeves.

Yes! I'm always struck by that when I watch that episode, too! I wonder why there were so many writers on this episode, but yeah, they made the effort look so seamless. It's cool that Grammar directed the episode, too - I like that they gave Frasier a good excuse to be away for much of the episode, to make it easier for Grammar to focus on directing. 

I love that that's one of Pierce and Leeves' favorite episodes, it's one of mine as well, if not my favorite, so yay for being in agreement :D! Honestly, though, it doesn't surprise me that they'd like that episode - from interviews I've seen and read, I swear, I think they shipped Niles and Daphne about as much as the viewers did, if not more :p! But you highlighted part of what makes it such a great episode - it's funny and sweet and yet there's the underlying longing and heartache, and the episode balances all of those emotions so perfectly. 

Plus, I know that Jane Leeves had training as a dancer at some point prior to becoming an actor, so I could easily see her enjoying the episode for that reason as well. Good opportunity to show off her talent in that arena, and all that :). 

[StarBrand]

9 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Good opportunity to show off her talent in that arena, and all that :). 

That, she did.....:)

Niles always lost his composure with Daphne's inadvertant physical teasing, or any suggestive  comment, which didn't waver once they got together. The only difference afterwards was that she often did so on purpose. I remember the episode where Daphne was looking at Martin's old pictures, and was amused by how many of them featured a hunched over Niles looking at her ass.

"I might have permitted myself a fleeting glance once....or twice.....many, many times..."

[Annber03]

14 hours ago, StarBrand said:

That, she did.....:)

Niles always lost his composure with Daphne's inadvertant physical teasing, or any suggestive  comment, which didn't waver once they got together. The only difference afterwards was that she often did so on purpose. I remember the episode where Daphne was looking at Martin's old pictures, and was amused by how many of them featured a hunched over Niles looking at her ass.

"I might have permitted myself a fleeting glance once....or twice.....many, many times..."

LOL, yes, I love how Niles had this whole "repressed desire" thing going on, mostly with Daphne, as you note, but also on a general level in terms of wanting to break free and do anything even remotely wild or crazy. Pierce did such a great job of walking that fine line with the character. 

And yeah, I like that that remained a thing with Daphne even after they got together. And Daphne had fun being able to fluster him like that, even before they got together! She really enjoyed being able to bring him out of his shell at that ball in "Moon Dance". 

[Athena]

11 hours ago, Annber03 said:

And yeah, I like that that remained a thing with Daphne even after they got together. And Daphne had fun being able to fluster him like that, even before they got together! She really enjoyed being able to bring him out of his shell at that ball in "Moon Dance". 

Agreed. I know Mel is a controversial character, but Daphne liked her better once she found out that Mel shared her view about Niles's potential. They both had confidence in him and wanted to it out more. Mel's methods were a tad more manipulative though. 

I think they wrote Niles consistently has having an inferiority complex. He exhibited some self-esteem issues and felt always second to Frasier growing up. His marriage to Maris exacerbated this in his adult life. In flashback episodes, Niles has colder relationships with Frasier and Martin. He also didn't seem to have any friends outside of Maris's circle and she seemed to control him in many ways. Once he got closer to Frasier, Martin, Daphne, and Roz, he started to come out of his shell. When I rewatch the show, Niles has the best character development arc from season to season. The writing and acting reflected that.

[Ms Blue Jay]

That's really interesting.  I never ever even thought about that.  That maybe Niles felt inferior having such a prominent older brother and then repeated the pattern by marrying women who dominated him.  

[Annber03]

12 hours ago, Athena said:

Agreed. I know Mel is a controversial character, but Daphne liked her better once she found out that Mel shared her view about Niles's potential. They both had confidence in him and wanted to it out more. Mel's methods were a tad more manipulative though. 

Oh, yeah, that's a good scene. Both because of Daphne's reaction to Mel's comments about Niles and because, for as manipulative as Mel could definitely be, and as problematic as her relationship with Niles was (and would've been, had they continued to stay together), you did get a sense that she really did care about and love him, at least in that moment. 

I like your analysis about Niles and how his character development and growth mirrors his relationships with the other characters. That's so true. And that's also part of why he wound up with Maris - she brought him into a world where he could, at the very least, have the appearance of feeling important and special. And that's a large part of what made his separation and divorce from Maris so hard, because, aside from the obvious pain of going through a divorce in and of itself*, he really truly came to realize just how little the people in that snooty social circle actually respected him, and he was losing access to a world that gave him a lot of what he longed for. 

*The other sad thing about his reaction to his separation and divorce from Maris is that for as horribly as she treated him and as messed up as their marriage was, there was always still this lingering affection whenever he spoke of her. He genuinely did love her, and that makes what he goes through when he leaves her all the more heartbreaking. 

12 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

That's really interesting.  I never ever even thought about that.  That maybe Niles felt inferior having such a prominent older brother and then repeated the pattern by marrying women who dominated him.  

I can't remember if it was here or elsewhere, but someone once made the point that one reason Frasier was so bothered by Niles dating Mel was because she threatened to take his place in Niles' life. He was used to being the person Niles would come to for advice and support and so forth, and now here comes Mel, ready to take on that role. And he couldn't stand it. Knowing Frasier as we do, that makes a lot of sense to me. 

[Athena]

8 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I can't remember if it was here or elsewhere, but someone once made the point that one reason Frasier was so bothered by Niles dating Mel was because she threatened to take his place in Niles' life. He was used to being the person Niles would come to for advice and support and so forth, and now here comes Mel, ready to take on that role. And he couldn't stand it. Knowing Frasier as we do, that makes a lot of sense to me. 

It didn't help that Mel was quite rude to the family. I say that as someone who liked the actress and I do agree that Mel did care and love Niles. The family doesn't like Lilith and she was cold and precise. Mel was snootier and more competitive about it. 

I think Frasier did feel a little threatened and you can see how he is a bit lonelier without Niles after Niles/Daphne get to a more stable place. Niles and Frasier are very close and they established they were like that growing up which reflects in their adult dynamics as single men ("If you get one, you get the other one"). Even when Niles had issues in his personal life, he was shown consistently to be a great psychiatrist which is why Frasier did go to him for lots of things (and vice versa).

The Niles/Frasier relationship is part of the core aspects of this show. I think for many of us, Niles/DHP was the heart of it and he won the most awards from it as well. Recently Kelsey Grammar said Niles/DHP would not be part of the new show at all and a lot of fans were really dismayed. I think Frasier and Kelsey were obviously important to the show but Niles carried much of the show for some fans.  Frasier did not have the same amount of growth and character development for probably a variety of reasons: Grammar's personal life and being the title character, he had to be kept static to keep up with the premise of the show.

[Ms Blue Jay]

8 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I can't remember if it was here or elsewhere, but someone once made the point that one reason Frasier was so bothered by Niles dating Mel was because she threatened to take his place in Niles' life. He was used to being the person Niles would come to for advice and support and so forth, and now here comes Mel, ready to take on that role. And he couldn't stand it. Knowing Frasier as we do, that makes a lot of sense to me. 

Geez, you guys are blowing my mind.  LOL.

[Mabinogia]

9 hours ago, Athena said:

Recently Kelsey Grammar said Niles/DHP would not be part of the new show at all and a lot of fans were really dismayed.

That's disappointing to hear. Obviously, Martin won't be around either. My favorite thing about the show was always watching the Crane men interact. Niles/Daphne was a very close second. 

[StarBrand]

On 12/2/2022 at 9:33 AM, Athena said:

Recently Kelsey Grammar said Niles/DHP would not be part of the new show at all and a lot of fans were really dismayed

Yeah, that's a blow. I hope fandom doesn't give him shit for it. I don't know if the reason is he's otherwise occupied, or simply doesn't want to portray the character any more. It would be nice if Leeves could appear, though.

It's becoming apparent to me this revival won't resemble the old Frasier in any way, which is good really, because you don't want to retread territory already covered. It seems like if any character from the show appears, it will be in a small role, much in the same way as Frasier's old Cheers buddies would occasionally pop up, not to be seen again for months or years at a time. I don't know anything about where the show's even supposed to be set...last we heard, Frasier touched down in Chicago, after supposedly going to San Francisco..

Edited December 3, 2022 by StarBrand

[Irlandesa]

I think, deep down, Kelsey didn't want to bring in the old characters into the new show either.  Maybe guest appearances, and I hope DHP hasn't completely shut that down, but it's Frasier in a new city and a new phase of life.

I would have preferred that it's Frasier and Niles together in the new phase but I'm not all that surprised DHP said no.

[Athena]

4 hours ago, StarBrand said:

Yeah, that's a blow. I hope fandom doesn't give him shit for it. I don't know if the reason is he's otherwise occupied, or simply doesn't want to portray the character any more. It would be nice if Leeves could appear, though.

3 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I think, deep down, Kelsey didn't want to bring in the old characters into the new show either.  Maybe guest appearances, and I hope DHP hasn't completely shut that down, but it's Frasier in a new city and a new phase of life.

I would have preferred that it's Frasier and Niles together in the new phase but I'm not all that surprised DHP said no.

I would have been fine with guest appearances but I think Kelsey doesn't want to bring in the old characters either. The press for the revival keeps making it out to be very different just like "Frasier" was different than "Cheers". If the show wanted the old cast to be on even briefly, they would make it happen but it doesn't look like they are going to.

The cast are still professional with Kelsey but they are not friendly with him the way they are with each other (Jane is close to both Peri and DHP) so that may be a factor as well.

[Ms Blue Jay]

That doesn't make much sense to me.  A revival should be a lot like its originating material.  A spinoff is the thing that should be different. 

[Camera One]

I have mixed feelings.  Some revivals unfortunately do end up treading old ground, with nothing new to add, so it feels like a pale imitation, with the characters' current ages being a distraction.  I found that with the "Murphy Brown" revival, even though I wanted to like it.  It might have been the writing, but the characters just didn't feel like their quick witted selves from the past.

Other revivals focus on the next generation, which doesn't quite work if you don't care about the young ones.  I felt that with the "The Connors" to some extent.

Revivals can also be damaging if they reverse character development from the original series in order to create conflict or to make some artificial character arc that we already saw decades ago. 

Or even worse, bring back a show and then kill off a beloved character for shock value.

In that sense, it might be a better idea to have Frasier in a different setting.  Of course, that will all depend on the quality of the writing and casting, and if they still have somewhere for the Frasier character to go from here.   I agree with the comment the best aspect of "Frasier" was actually Fraser and Nile's interactions and without that, it's a wildcard.

At the same time, I would have loved to see the old cast reunited. 

Maybe they could have the best of both worlds by having some good cameo episodes.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Camera One

[StarBrand]

I'm sure that Grammar wouldn't have agreed to do the revival unless the showrunners had s unique and clear idea of what it would be about, and that it would not retread old ground.  Grammar never wanted to do Frasier until the writers made it clear it would not be like Cheers in any way, after all.

[Annber03]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

Maybe they could have the best of both worlds by having some good cameo episodes.

That's how I always figured the revival would ultimately play out. It'd largely be centered around Frasier's new life in Chicago, or wherever he is now, if he wound up moving yet again, with the others popping in for the occasional guest spot or something. I know a lot of people imagined the reboot being Frasier exploring his relationship with Frederick further, the way Frasier had to with Martin. I think that would be a good way to bridge that gap while still bringing something new to this third act of Frasier's life. 

But yeah, while it'd definitely be a shame to not have the rest of the cast on the show, for a whole host of reasons, I understand why they might choose to move on. It can be tough getting back into the role of a character you played years ago, even if it's one you played so perfectly and have fond memories of playing. And, on the plus side, if it turns out this reboot doesn't play out very well, well, at least most of the cast not being involved will make it easier to keep their roles/characters/legacies intact :p. 

But yeah, Frasier was surrounded by a good cast on "Cheers", and then he had a good supporting cast around him on "Frasier". Hopefully the people involved in this revival/reboot/whatever will keep that in mind this go-round, too - if they can get that part of things right and give him a new, strong group of people to play off of, then it should work out okay, and may make it easier for viewers to adjust to the rest of the "Frasier" cast not being there. 

On 12/2/2022 at 8:33 AM, Athena said:

It didn't help that Mel was quite rude to the family. I say that as someone who liked the actress and I do agree that Mel did care and love Niles. The family doesn't like Lilith and she was cold and precise. Mel was snootier and more competitive about it. 

That, too, yes, definitely :p. And of course, all the similarities Frasier, and eventually Martin, saw between Mel and Maris certainly didn't help matters, either. I did like this exchange between Frasier and Martin after they met Mel for the first time, though:

Frasier: "Well. She seems a bit much."

Martin: "What do you mean?"

Frasier: "Dining on the terrace, 'you have to know the owner'. Doesn't she remind you of anyone?"

Martin: "Yeah. You." 

Quote

I think Frasier did feel a little threatened and you can see how he is a bit lonelier without Niles after Niles/Daphne get to a more stable place. Niles and Frasier are very close and they established they were like that growing up which reflects in their adult dynamics as single men ("If you get one, you get the other one"). Even when Niles had issues in his personal life, he was shown consistently to be a great psychiatrist which is why Frasier did go to him for lots of things (and vice versa).

The Niles/Frasier relationship is part of the core aspects of this show. I think for many of us, Niles/DHP was the heart of it and he won the most awards from it as well. 

Seriously, I've lost count of how many times I'll come across some kind of countdown of "greatest TV characters" somewhere and Niles is often in there somewhere, and Frasier isn't. He is absolutely the definition of a breakout character, for sure. 

But yeah, one of the running jokes/commentaries was that Frasier and Niles often leaned on each other as kids, partly because they had so few friends and partly because they were really the only ones who "got" each other's interests and tastes and such, so it makes total sense they would struggle a bit without each other as adults, too, and have a hard time fitting into new social circles. 

I read somewhere once that the show wanted to make sure that no matter how goofy Frasier and Niles were acting, they would always be shown as good at their jobs, 'cause it wouldn't be very believable that people would come to them otherwise. Which was a very wise decision, both because it was good to see them doing something right in and of itself and also because for all their snobby attitudes and whatnot, seeing them genuinely being able to help people who needed it, and caring about their jobs as deeply as they did, humanized them and made them more likeable and relatable. It also made the moments when they would analyze themselves or others more logical and interesting, too, because it was a good way to show what all they'd learned from their work, and how they applied those skills to their professional and personal lives. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

I always preferred the character of Frasier over Niles and always could relate to him way more.  I know that makes me an outlier here.  I see what a good actor DHP is obviously but Niles is a more 'extreme' character and I find Frasier more grounded so I could relate to him more like the same way I could relate more to Jerry and Elaine on "Seinfeld" than George and Kramer.  

I'm very close to my younger sibling so I can so relate to the Frasier/Niles sibling dynamic, it's so good to see it played out onscreen and it's incredible because the show was almost not about that.  I have an older sibling too but he's so completely different from us.  He's like our "Martin".

Edited December 4, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm very close to my younger sibling so I can so relate to the Frasier/Niles sibling dynamic, it's so good to see it played out onscreen and it's incredible because the show was almost not about that.  I have an older sibling too but he's so completely different from us.  He's like our "Martin".

Yeah, I have a younger sister and I can see elements of the sibling dynamic with us, too. We're not competitive like Frasier and Niles are, but we do have a close bond. I even live with my mom, like Frasier and Martin did. No physical therapists, though :p. It is a funny thing with me, though - I'm the older sibling, and yet I seem to be drawn to characters, or in real life, befriend, people who are the younger siblings in their families. 

It also seems fitting that our family likes the show, because Frasier works at a radio station, just like my dad did. We seem to have a thing for shows with characters working at radio stations in general - "Frasier", "WKRP", my mom liked a show from the '60s called "Good Morning, World" that was set at a radio station....:p. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

9 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

It also seems fitting that our family likes the show, because Frasier works at a radio station, just like my dad did. 

I feel like I am turning into Frasier.  My apartment number even starts with "19" like his does.  The coincidences are getting eerie.

[StarBrand]

I watched "Hot Pursuit", which was the episode that first leaned into the whole Roz-Frasier pairing. I don't think there would ever have been anything long term there, but the friends-with-benefits thing I could definitely see happening at various points (which it did, a season later). The look the two give each other when the station manager shows up is NOT that of two peaple who think they were about to make a mistake, nor do they appear pleased to be interrupted.  Peri and Grammer sold it.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I started to watch the 1994 remake of "Miracle on 34th Street" and who do I see but Jane Leeves!

And Richard from "Sex and the City", if that means anything to you. 😄

[StarBrand]

I know she never appeared in Frasier, for various reasons, but this is worth noting...

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/kirstie-alley-cheers-look-whos-talking-star-dies-aged-71-2022-12-06/

[Ms Blue Jay]

Wow, that's a shock.

[Camera One]

On 12/3/2022 at 8:07 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I always preferred the character of Frasier over Niles and always could relate to him way more.  I know that makes me an outlier here.  I see what a good actor DHP is obviously but Niles is a more 'extreme' character and I find Frasier more grounded so I could relate to him more like the same way I could relate more to Jerry and Elaine on "Seinfeld" than George and Kramer.  

I think that was the intention with Frasier being the title character, who is usually surrounded by more quirky supporting characters in a typical sitcom.  Frasier had more relatable issues, starting from the main premise of moving in with his aging father.  Niles was a more extreme version of Frasier in some respects, which also made Frasier more "normal" by comparison.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

On 12/10/2022 at 11:46 AM, Camera One said:

I think that was the intention with Frasier being the title character, who is usually surrounded by more quirky supporting characters in a typical sitcom.  Frasier had more relatable issues, starting from the main premise of moving in with his aging father.  Niles was a more extreme version of Frasier in some respects, which also made Frasier more "normal" by comparison.

That makes sense since he's the character followed over from Cheers. 

[SoMuchTV]

I’m not as much of a Frasier expert as some folks here, but Cozi seems to be running a marathon of Christmas episodes. The one where Niles is playing Jesus and Fraser has to pretend to be Jewish for whatever reason, is on now. 

[Egg McMuffin]

Anyone here watch “The Odd Couple”? I’ve rediscovered it over the past few weeks and it really is the spiritual predecessor of “Frasier” (which has two Felixes instead of one). Tony Randall’s portrayal of Felix is very reminiscent of Kelsey Grammer as Frasier. And aside from the characters, even the scripts and stories are familiar; TOC dips into farce the same way that “Frasier” does.

[Annber03]

20 minutes ago, Egg McMuffin said:

Anyone here watch “The Odd Couple”? I’ve rediscovered it over the past few weeks and it really is the spiritual predecessor of “Frasier” (which has two Felixes instead of one). Tony Randall’s portrayal of Felix is very reminiscent of Kelsey Grammer as Frasier. And aside from the characters, even the scripts and stories are familiar; TOC dips into farce the same way that “Frasier” does.

My mom's said she can see a lot of Niles in Randall's portrayal of Felix, too. I can see that. 

I've caught some of the reruns of that show on TV, and yeah, it makes sense that fans of one would probably enjoy the other, for all the reasons you note :). It's a classic show in its own right.