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Annber03
Annber03

"I'm just glad you're all right. I would've assumed she'd killed after mating." 

raven
raven

I know I've commented on "Travels with Martin" before but it is so damned funny, I'm watching it now.  Our heroes are heading back to the border having inadvertently crossed into Canada and Daphne can

Annber03
Annber03

And Niles' reaction to Freddie telling him that his parents were getting back together: *Through forced smile** "What's this joyous news I hear?"  

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tessaray

tessaray

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

Was that David Ogden Stiers? Because I can totally see that.

Yep. The way they ended it with him being gay and Martin all relieved seems silly today. Because Hester could be a managing witch and I could see her doing something like that in some circumstances.  But then they said in another episode that she was pregnant at the wedding, so 🤷. 

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SusanM

SusanM

9 minutes ago, tessaray said:

But then they said in another episode that she was pregnant at the wedding, so 🤷. 

This reminds me of how confused I always was by how old Martin was supposed to be - we're told he met Hester when he was a police officer and she was a Dr who, for some reason (can't remember what now) was attending a crime scene.  So she had to be at least 26-27 and if he was a police officer surely he'd have to be around that same age or not much younger.  Yet we're also told at some point that he was only about 60-61 at the start of the series when Frasier was 40.  So how did that work??

As I said in another sitcom thread I guess the writers just don't worry about these details the way some of us viewers do!

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TruffleHog

TruffleHog

3 hours ago, SusanM said:

This reminds me of how confused I always was by how old Martin was supposed to be - we're told he met Hester when he was a police officer and she was a Dr who, for some reason (can't remember what now) was attending a crime scene.  So she had to be at least 26-27 and if he was a police officer surely he'd have to be around that same age or not much younger.  Yet we're also told at some point that he was only about 60-61 at the start of the series when Frasier was 40.  So how did that work??

As I said in another sitcom thread I guess the writers just don't worry about these details the way some of us viewers do!

I think that the chief writers for each episode varies.  They don't always keep track of what somebody else wrote in a different episode. However,  I always wonder why the actors didn't notice the inconsistencies and bring it up.

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Annber03

Annber03

(edited)

Frasier's another one whose age/birthday seems to bounce around a bit. There's one episode where he mentions his birthday's in March, but then there's the episode where he throws his back out on his birthday (aka, the one where Daphne finds out about Niles' feelings for her)...

...and then the episode immediately following that one takes place at Christmas. So unless they skipped over a WHOLE bunch of months between "Back Talk" and "The Fight Before Christmas"...:p. 

37 minutes ago, TruffleHog said:

However,  I always wonder why the actors didn't notice the inconsistencies and bring it up.

Honestly, the actors may not notice or even think about the inconsistencies all that much, either, much of the time. Either that or sometimes I think some actors prefer to just let the writers do their thing and they keep their focus on the acting. Or they feel it's not their place to call the writers out, or whatever, and just leave it at that. 

I've heard the actors had a pretty good working relationship with the writers on "Frasier", so I'm sure they would've felt comfortable pointing out those inconsistencies if and when possible, but maybe they just felt it wasn't a big enough deal or something? I dunno. 

ETA: I also feel like, for actors and writers who were on older sitcoms, even if they noticed the inconsistencies, they never really brought them up or bothered to try and fix them, because a lot of them never really thought about the fact that a lot of viewers/fans would watch the episodes so often years later and analyze and discuss the details of the show so thoroughly. By the time "Frasier" was on TV, reruns were a common thing, of course, but even then, I wonder if the actors and writers thought there'd be a fandom around it the way there's fandoms for, like, a lot of genre shows that do tend to inspire devoted, invested fandoms (notably a lot of sci-fi shows, for instance)? 

Nowadays, of course, many actors and writers are well aware of how fans tend to watch TV and discuss it and notice little details and whatnot, but back then, I do wonder if they just didn't take that aspect into account as much. 

Edited by Annber03
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Egg McMuffin

Egg McMuffin

I watched it last night. It’s fun catching little things I didn’t notice before, like Bulldog calling Niles “Miles”.

COZI was showing the later episodes over the last few months, and it was the first time I’d seen them in quite some time. While the latter part of the series doesn’t have many gems like “The Innkeepers”, it’s still very good, and stronger than I remembered it.

We haven’t heard anything about the Paramount+ reboot in a while. I wonder if it’s still happening.

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Annber03

Annber03

26 minutes ago, Egg McMuffin said:

I watched it last night. It’s fun catching little things I didn’t notice before, like Bulldog calling Niles “Miles”.

I'll always love the bit where Frasier tells Niles and Daphne to kill five eels, and Niles is, understandably, like, "WHAT?" and asks how Frasier suggests they do that. Frasier's response of, "How should I know, you're the chef! Throw a toaster in the damn tank for all I care!" just cracks me up every time XD. Just something about the way Grammar says that line...

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We haven’t heard anything about the Paramount+ reboot in a while. I wonder if it’s still happening.

As far as I've heard, they're still planning to go ahead with it. Just a matter of when they'll be able to get it filmed, I think, is the big issue at the moment. 

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Egg McMuffin

Egg McMuffin

(edited)

Watching season 3 on COZI right now. The character of Kate was not a bad idea, but casting Mercedes Ruehl was a misstep. I thought her comic chops were lacking ad she was pretty unsubtle in the role. The rest of the cast were playing like finely tuned instruments. And along comes Mercedes who comes across like she’s banging two rocks together.

Edited by Egg McMuffin
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TheLastKidPicked

TheLastKidPicked

(edited)
15 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

So did I. I wish she had been around a little longer. I liked her and Frasier together especially Bad Boy and dirty girl. 

14 hours ago, tessaray said:

Did any of Frasier's love interests ever last more than a half season at most?

14 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

No, but it would have been nice if one or two had

I agree Frasier would have been much happier if he finally found a love interest who worked out long term.  Looking back at the series as a whole, I think the writers knew they couldn't give Fraiser (and us) a happy ending like that.

It is this constant pursuit of a good, long term relationship that made Frasier who he was.  We root for him, and we want him to find true love, but we know it is not meant to be.

Edited by TheLastKidPicked
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jird

jird

49 minutes ago, TheLastKidPicked said:

I agree Frasier would have been much happier if he finally found a love interest who worked out long term.  Looking back at the series as a whole, I think the writers knew they couldn't give Fraiser (and us) a happy ending like that.

It is this constant pursuit of a good, long term relationship that made Frasier who he was.  We root for him, and we want him to find true love, but we know it is not meant to be.

Yeah, it seems like the women who were best for him did not make for good entertainment. He and Claire seemed very good for each other, but I found her to be super boring, which might be because they were so well matched. Frasier was always funniest with a woman who was different enough from him to challenge his habits. Finding that balance is hard.

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Egg McMuffin

Egg McMuffin

I’m trying to remember them all: Kate, Sela Ward (maybe she doesn’t count because she was only in one episode, but I really like her), Patricia Clarkson, Jean Smart, Laura Linney, Felicity Huffman. I don’t think any of them were a great match.

The one he had the most chemistry with was Lilith, because she was just as weird as he was and they were a good match. But I know that wasn’t the premise of this show. I never bought their divorce, though - that was clearly done because Kelsey didn’t want to do a “Frasier and Lilith” spinoff. And I’m not sure Bebe Neuwirth would have been willing even if he had been, because she actually left Cheers partway through its last season.

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TheLastKidPicked

TheLastKidPicked

1 hour ago, jird said:

Yeah, it seems like the women who were best for him did not make for good entertainment.

You said that better than I did.  Thank you for that!

1 hour ago, Egg McMuffin said:

The one he had the most chemistry with was Lilith, because she was just as weird as he was and they were a good match

36 minutes ago, tessaray said:

I did like that Lilith was a constant in Frasier's life

How ironic that Lilith really was the best match for Frasier.

Watch some old Cheers episodes and those two will have you laughing out loud.

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Annber03

Annber03

2 hours ago, tessaray said:

I did like that Lilith was a constant in Frasier's life. 

I like the episode they had in the final season where Frasier and Lilith wind up spending the evening stuck in a hotel together after their planned respective date nights go awry. It's a really sweet final exploration of their history together, and a nice way to show the affection and respect they still have for each other. 

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Irlandesa

Irlandesa

6 hours ago, Egg McMuffin said:

Sela Ward (maybe she doesn’t count because she was only in one episode, but I really like her)

I liked her too.  And of course, Frasier's need for people to know he was sleeping with a model ended up torching what could have been. 

He was able to maintain steady relationships in Cheers but I kind of like that a characteristic of him on Frasier was that he couldn't settle into what he had.  His pompousness undermined any success he started to have.

23 hours ago, tessaray said:

I liked Kate, except for her last episode which was pretty dumb. Bad boy and dirty girl always makes me laugh. (Probably because it's so out of character for both of them.)

I kind of liked how they ended.  They were so wrapped up in their passionate fling that when they had to force themselves to consider something serious, it cooled quickly. 

Does Patrick Stewart count?  Talk about perfect...other than the fact that he was a man.  Ha!

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Ms Blue Jay

Ms Blue Jay

(edited)
On 5/26/2022 at 6:43 PM, TheLastKidPicked said:

Watch some old Cheers episodes and those two will have you laughing out loud.

I always, always want to watch "Cheers" simply for Frasier and Lilith but I can't seem to bear a lot of the rest of it.  My father is a big "Cheers" fan and my brother and I are such "Frasier" freaks.  I wonder if/assume this pattern must repeat itself in other families.

Edited by Ms Blue Jay
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Ms Blue Jay

Ms Blue Jay

(edited)
On 5/26/2022 at 5:30 PM, Egg McMuffin said:

I’m trying to remember them all: Kate, Sela Ward (maybe she doesn’t count because she was only in one episode, but I really like her), Patricia Clarkson, Jean Smart, Laura Linney, Felicity Huffman. I don’t think any of them were a great match.

Sela Ward is so gorgeous.  So is that model from the Bachelor Auction, but I've written about how mad that episode kinda makes me. The Sela Ward one upsets me too!  Frasier CAN NEVER GET HIS WAY.

I can't let a mention of Felicity Huffman go by without mentioning that "A Man, a Plan, and a Gal: Julia" is one of the funniest things, ever, to me.  I didn't really "like" Julia and I agree with Roz she was quite nasty but I do like those Julia episodes.  Like when they have to do a sexual harassment seminar on the weekend because Frasier hits on Julia.  Van, the instructor, tells them all to pick up a sexual harassment booklet and Bulldog pulls out one from his pocket and says something like "I still have mine from last year."

There were soooooooooooo many 1 episode women.  The beautiful Laura Harring who catches Frasier STEPPING OVER Martin who has fell on the floor.  Hhahahaahah.  "What kind of monster are you?"  The crazy artist woman who howled at the moon.  I couldn't stand how Frasier couldn't just accept that they were having casual sex.  He tortured himself and all of his family and friends about it and they were like "Shut up who cares!  Just enjoy it!"  and he couldn't because he thought it was immoral that they didn't know where it was going.  Oh my lord.

Edited by Ms Blue Jay
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Annber03

Annber03

31 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Like when they have to do a sexual harassment seminar on the weekend because Frasier hits on Julia.  Van, the instructor, tells them all to pick up a sexual harassment booklet and Bulldog pulls out one and says something like "I still have mine from last year."

I love the bit during the harassment seminar where they're recreating Frasier and Julia's conversation and how Frasier asked her if she was as turned on as he was. The instructor asks everyone at that point what Frasier did wrong in that scenario, and Bulldog raises his hand and says something like, "People stopped using the term 'turned on' years ago." :p. 

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The crazy artist woman who howled at the moon.  I couldn't stand how Frasier couldn't just accept that they were having casual sex.  He tortured himself and all of his family and friends about it and they were like "Shut up who cares!  Just enjoy it!"  and he couldn't because he thought it was immoral that they didn't know where it was going.  Oh my lord.

YES. I mean, I totally agree that things wouldn't have lasted long term between him and that artist, but yeah, that was the point, they weren't meant to last. It's fine if he realizes he's not the casual sex sort, not everyone is (I wouldn't be, either), but yeah, there was no need to agonize over it to the extent that he did. Either end things or just enjoy them for what they are, it doesn't have to be that complicated. 

43 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I always, always want to watch "Cheers" simply for Frasier and Lilith but I can't seem to bear a lot of the rest of it.  My father is a big "Cheers" fan and my brother and I are such "Frasier" freaks.  I wonder if/assume this pattern must repeat itself in other families.

My parents did watch "Cheers" sometimes when it was on originally, but they weren't, like, huge fans or anything. In fact, my mom always talked about how she didn't really "get" Frasier and Lilith when they were on "Cheers", but she loved them on "Frasier". 

I did work my way through "Cheers" last year, and there was a lot I did like about it - the cast played well off each other, I thought the show handled the transition from Diane to Rebecca well, and it was great to get a glimpse into Frasier in his early years, and his relationship with Lilith, as well as the one he had with Diane. It gave me a much better context for and understanding of all the jokes and references made on "Frasier" in regards to those two relationships, and Frasier's life in Boston, I totally get why the show became so popular and beloved.

But yeah, in a lot of ways the humor does seem to hit differently on that show than it does on "Frasier", so I can see why some might have a harder time getting into that series as easily. 

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peacheslatour

peacheslatour

10 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I always, always want to watch "Cheers" simply for Frasier and Lilith but I can't seem to bear a lot of the rest of it.  My father is a big "Cheers" fan and my brother and I are such "Frasier" freaks.  I wonder if/assume this pattern must repeat itself in other families.

We used to watch Cheers in it's first run but even though I really liked Rebecca and the rest of them, I didn't like Sam. Like at all. And I hated that the show wrote him as being irresistible to women. I just didn't think he was attractive at all.

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tessaray

tessaray

We can't really watch Cheers anymore. The Sam/Diane relationship was so toxic, in retrospect.  And I hated how the writers trashed Lilith towards the end. But if we do end up with it on for some reason, I  always hope it's a Coach episode. 

The artist girlfriend was the actress who played Cuddy on House. It's fun to see people in small roles that have gone on to bigger things.

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Irlandesa

Irlandesa

(edited)
On 5/29/2022 at 12:56 AM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I always, always want to watch "Cheers" simply for Frasier and Lilith but I can't seem to bear a lot of the rest of it.  My father is a big "Cheers" fan and my brother and I are such "Frasier" freaks.  I wonder if/assume this pattern must repeat itself in other families.

I was a big fan of Cheers during the Diane years.  I'll still rewatch those episodes.  I don't hold the Rebecca years with the same affection even though they can make me laugh.  I think I mentioned it elsewhere in this thread but I think they did something that Frasier, for the most part, avoided.  And that is turning some of their characters into caricatures. Sam got so dumb.  And Rebecca so pathetic. 

Here's a list of the best Frasier and Frasier/Lilith episodes from Cheers.  If you can't bring yourself to watch Cheers.  This at least will narrow down the episodes you watch to those with a significant Lilith presence which was not always the case.  Sometimes she'd just have a quick appearance as, unlike Frasier, she didn't really hang at the bar that much. For instance, I think this scene might be her only one from the episode but is a fave of mine for obvious reasons.

Another 1 or 2 episode love interest I liked for how spectacularly Frasier mucked it up was Teri Polo. She was Frasier's lawyer who he felt overcharged him. 

Edited by Irlandesa
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Annber03

Annber03

11 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Another 1 or 2 episode love interest I liked for how spectacularly Frasier mucked it up was Teri Polo. She was Frasier's lawyer who he felt overcharged him. 

Oh, he was doing so well by distracting her with an attempt to pretend that e-mail he'd sent her was actually a sexy one. And then he had to accidentally hit "print" :p. 

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Ms Blue Jay

Ms Blue Jay

(edited)

Even Frasier is too much of a cad for me sometimes.  He's always trying to find some much younger single woman out there.  Having casual sex with the wolf lady is fine - they were both on the same page and neither had any misled expectations. But the way Frasier goes to every party always trying to sniff out new opportunities makes me roll my eyes.  And he usually goes after women for their looks - not in the case of Kate, but usually.

We didn't talk about Cassandra and Faye.  Or the woman who had an athletic line that he took to Bora Bora - Madeleine?  I liked her and their romance was good but of course LILITH shows up!

I think in retrospect, Faye is kind of growing me, but I used to find her annoying.  That was a woman Frasier actually liked for her brain and even the fact that she was a great pastry chef.

Edited by Ms Blue Jay
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Annber03

Annber03

2 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Even Frasier is too much of a cad for me sometimes.  He's always trying to find some much younger single woman out there.  Having casual sex with the wolf lady is fine - they were both on the same page and neither had any misled expectations. But the way Frasier goes to every party always trying to sniff out new opportunities makes me roll my eyes.  And he usually goes after women for their looks - not in the case of Kate, but usually.

We didn't talk about Cassandra and Faye.  Or the woman who had an athletic line that he took to Bora Bora - Madeleine?  I liked her and their romance was good but of course LILITH shows up.

Yeah, I think you hit on something with the age issue being a factor, too. I think that's one reason things with Faye and Madeline didn't work out - they acted far more mature than Frasier did for much of their relationships. Frasier obsessed more over getting back at Lilith during that vacation than he did on spending time getting to know Madeline, and then with Faye, he had a good thing with her and yet he still wasn't satisfied with just her. And yet with any younger women he dated, it was a fun fling, but much harder to form a long-term commitment because they're at different stages of their lives and him struggling to acknowledge his age would get tiring for the women after a while, since his supposed "older mature man" deal would've been what they found so appealing in the first place. 

There's also been the moments when Roz has pointed out that Frasier comes off a little TOO desperate when pursuing a woman ,especially if it's been a while since he's dated, and how that can be a real turn off for women. And as usual, she's right. 

I imagine it would be very hard to throw oneself back into the dating pool after multiple divorces and being left at the altar - that fear that you might screw things up yet again, and all that, it would be very scary, for sure. So on that level I get why he struggled sometimes relationship-wise. But yes, much of the time, a lot of the reason his relationships ended was because he spent WAY too much time in his head and overanalyzing things and always trying to look for "the one" instead of just enjoying each relationship as it came and seeing where it took him/them. 

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jird

jird

9 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

We used to watch Cheers in it's first run but even though I really liked Rebecca and the rest of them, I didn't like Sam. Like at all. And I hated that the show wrote him as being irresistible to women. I just didn't think he was attractive at all.

Same! I never got his appeal either for his appearance or his personality. 

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Athena

Athena

My partner loves Cheers and Frasier so we watch both. I watched the tail end of Cheers growing up and I found a lot of the characters a bit unpleasant compared to on Frasier. On rewatch, they aren't so bad except I find the relationships problematic.

I agree that I didn't get the Sam appeal but I was too young. Having rewatched earlier Cheers eps and Ted Danson in other things, I understand it a bit better now. I also never warmed to Rebecca and I can't dissociate the actor and the character now. I do rewatch eps of it a lot for Frasier and Lilith. Bebe as Lilith is fantastic in both shows.

I agree that I never liked Frasier's relationship drama on this show but I think it was a theme on sitcoms of the era: Cheers, Frasier, Friends, Seinfeld, etc. I really appreciated that Niles only had a handful of relationships or interests on the course of the show.

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