Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[SmallScreenDiva]

The way they write her is truly mind-boggling. They set up a hero journey for her but they saddle her with a storyline where she lies to her father about her sister's death (Then even had her impersonate her dead sister to perpetuate the lie). They can't even come up with a solid rationale for why she's taken up the mask. One moment it's because she's avenging her sister; the next she's got a fire in her belly that needs to be quenched. During the big season finales where everybody has hero moments, she's left holding files or is a damsel in distress (no, her punching the Mirakuru'd guy is not a hero moment). And yet, the character and the actress gets trotted out to big events such as the TCAs and that sucky superheroes promo (I know, they're sorta tied together). It's all rather schizophrenic.

[nksarmi]

Things would have gone a lot better with the Sara lie if Laurel had tried to tell her and he started getting pains in his arm or something or felt light-headed and needed to sit down - something that would have shown the viewers there might be a serious health risk to telling him in that moment.  And they should have never done the fooling him thing.  He should have confronted her early about dressing up like her sister and she should have copped to it, started to tell him about Sara and then stopped.

 

In fact, you know what I think I would have liked so much better - if Laurel didn't know Sara was dead at all herself.  I think I would have preferred that she was inspired by her sister and started training to get stronger (perhaps like Ray because she didn't like feeling weak and helpless during the siege), then have her only suit up because Oliver was gone and she was frustrated about criminals going free and she wanted to do something for the Glades/the city but couldn't as an ADA so she copied her sister and worked with Roy all without realizing Sara was dead.

 

Then Ra's could have really messed around with people by telling Laurel and Quentin that Sara was dead, Malcom was the one who did it, and Oliver was protecting him.  I think I would have liked that much better.

[wonderwall]

Laurel's rise to vigilantism seemed so rushed and so not thought out properly. It just seemed like the writers were going "ugh let's just get this over and done with so we don't have to focus on it later" which is why the writing for it is so sloppy and why it only took like, what, 2-3 episodes for her to put on a mask and earn the title BC? How utterly ridiculous especially when compared to the fact that it took almost a season to for Roy to become Arsenal and 3+ seasons for Oliver to become Green Arrow. 

[statsgirl]

That's what doesn't make sense to me. Why are they rushing Laurel becoming the BC, getting the suit and the title

and the canary cry

if she's going to be on the show next season?  It seems to me that gradually making her the Black Canary would be more realistic and give them more story to tell. As is it, I have no idea what they can do with her next season.  Putting her in the Arrow lair is going to fundamentally change the tone of the show because that's the kind of character she is.

 

The only times I've liked Laurel was when she was being a good lawyer, e.g. in 2x01 and 3x17 when she was standing up to Ray.  As a fighting part of Team Arrow, it's hard not to resent her.  I wish they had taken more time with the character.

[kismet]

I feel like the writer's room has a picture of LL up and they stare at it just like OQ did in S1 and wonder so many things. How did we get here? Will she or audience ever forgive us? Man, we really screwed up. Will we ever get back to what we wanted? We really had a plan... why can't they understand us? Why am I stuck with this picture? Who just gives someone a picture. When we get back we'll figure it out. Somewhere fluctuating between love & hate. Just to name a few thoughts that run through my mind when I think about how they are stumbling with her character for 3 years in a row. Maybe its all supposed to be some grand experience for the audience to understand OQ. Its like some method exercise for the writers & audience.

[ostentatious]

Who just gives someone a picture. 

 

The only people who have any business giving anybody an unsolicited picture as a gift are A. Parents giving pics of their babies/children to those the grandparents and B. 15-yos on the last day of summer camp before they go back to like Toronto and Phoenix, respectively. And even with B it's ugh, it's just forgivable.

 

But Laurel's hero's journey is better suited to a teenager too, so whatever.

[statsgirl]

C.  Narcissists, who can't imagine someone not wanting to take their picture with them on a week long journey.  Not that they have any business giving someone a picture, just that they tend to do it.

[looptab]

By the way, Oliver went on the Gambit in 2007- By that time most people had already ditched print photos. Surely he had a pic of her on his phone? Lauriver fans resent the Fern, but really, the Picture of Doom is at the top of the idiotic things this show has served us.

[TanyaKay]

The only people who have any business giving anybody an unsolicited picture as a gift are A. Parents giving pics of their babies/children to those the grandparents and B. 15-yos on the last day of summer camp before they go back to like Toronto and Phoenix, respectively. And even with B it's ugh, it's just forgivable.

But Laurel's hero's journey is better suited to a teenager too, so whatever.

C. Narcissists, who can't imagine someone not wanting to take their picture with them on a week long journey. Not that they have any business giving someone a picture, just that they tend to do it.

Ever since we saw the flashback where she gave her photo (whoever came up with the title 'Picture of Doom' deserves a lot of praise) randomly to Oliver, this has been bugging me. I mean it takes next level narcissism to think anyone - esp a boy with history of cheating - would want your photo and hold onto that. I remember physically cringing in embarrassment and asking my boyfriend to kill me if I ever did anything like that. I am grateful to both of you for coming up with reasons. Edited April 15, 2015 by TanyaKay

[wonderwall]

D. She was that insecure about her relationship with Oliver and was worried that he might forget about her, therefore she gave him a picture to remind him who his girlfriend is. 

 

E. Oliver didn't actually have any photos of Laurel which is why she gave it to him -- which in itself is quite sad because it would've been more romantic if Oliver had the idea of taking that photo along with him, not Laurel. Then again, Oliver was heading on a boat to bang her sister so I don't even think he'd be up for romantic gestures 

 

lmao I still wonder who thought it was a good idea to have this toxic backstory for a main couple? 

 

KC was really cute in that scene the way she put the photo on her nose, but I never really understood the whole photo thing. I've never seen a couple do that before, not in reality and not in fiction. Especially not for a boyfriend who was only supposed to leave for a couple of weeks. A half a year? Sure. And the fact that Oliver had that photo in his pocket whilst having sexytimes with Sara is just so off putting. 

Edited April 15, 2015 by wonderwall

[ostentatious]

In the earlier flashback in that ep where she brings up moving in together and in the pic giveaway, Oliver is IMO at his absolute douchiest because he honestly looks like he's laughing his ass off at her and kind of enjoying it. Like this is a huge joke, she's a joke. She actually comes off fairly sweet. I feel incredibly embarrassed for her in both scenes because she can't seem to tell he is laughing at her, not with her. Like, God I have the lamest girlfriend. Seriously why is my gf so lame.

And yes about having a pic on his phone. It was 2007. He was 22. They've been together two years. The only new picture that guy would genuinely have been pleased to have received from her would've been a nude selfie. Any normal clothed pics of her that he cared to have would've been on his phone. Even...a pic of them together would've been better. Like if she'd just gotten back the prints from some sorority formal or something.

The laughing at her and seeming to kind of get off on how he's fooling her is another mommy connection. If he's working out his Moira issues, pulling the wool over Laurel's eyes would feel like successfully thwarting mommy's attempts at controlling him.

Edited April 15, 2015 by ostentatious

[dtissagirl]

I think Laurel was the unfortunate vehicle with which the picture arrived at the island. It feels to me like there was very very little thinking about what that meant for Laurel as a character, to give Oliver her picture.

 

But none of that mattered to the narrative. What mattered was that Oliver needed a tangible representation of Laurel with him in the island during the pilot. A reminder of what he needed to atone to -- a sin that was his alone, and not his father's. Because in the pilot, cheating on Laurel with Sara was Oliver's biggest sin. The stuff they were setting up for the Hood was Oliver trying to fix his father's mistakes.

 

...If only Laurel/Oliver had worked out for them, really.

[ostentatious]

I bet those three prods sat through the early dailies alternating shots of vodka and Mylanta. What a horrifying feeling it would be to realize the hook you'd planned to build your career upon was an irrevocable failure.

[CabotCove]

But why would they want to prop Sara at Laurel's expense when they knew that Laurel was going to be their hero Black Canary and Sara was going to be dead, dead, dead?

 

Hence why it doesn't make sense?

Edited April 15, 2015 by Conell

[dtissagirl]

It's on them, though, because I would bet serious money that they had one single concept development meeting about Laurel, and it went exactly like this:

 

1. Starting a rewatch of The Dark Knight

 

2. OMG LET'S STEAL RACHEL DAWES

 

3. Turning off the movie before she was fridged

 

4. Four hour discussion on how it's a brilliant idea, really, to steal a lady character from Christopher Nolan, a guy so well known for his rounded, complex lady characters

 

5. Young lady intern shyly raises her hand: But... what about the Black Canary-ness of it? Shouldn't we at least read some Gail Simone?

AK: EXCUSE YOU, I AM ANDREW KREISBERG AND I WROTE DOORMAT BLACK CANARY FOR LIKE 18 MONTHS A DECADE AGO, THAT'S THE ONLY BLACK CANARY THAT MATTERS.

MG: Also, that's a concept meeting for season three, who cares now.

[Carrie Ann]

4. Four hour discussion on how it's a brilliant idea, really, to steal a lady character from Christopher Nolan, a guy so well known for his rounded, complex lady characters

 

HAAAAAAAAAA. Yes, good, great work all around gentlemen, that's a wrap on the Black Canary origin story.

[Chaser]

I do find it really funny that instead of modeling Oliver after the Green Arrow and Laurel after the Black Canary, the inspiration was Bruce Wayne and Rachel Dawes by way of Christopher Nolan. Seriously? If you were looking for Nolan inspiration for a female lead I would have gone with Anne Hathaway's Selina Kyle.

[KirkB]

I get that that EP's wanted to do the Dark Knight but were forced to do Green Arrow instead. They decided to pattern Laurel after Rachel Dawes (instead of after, you know, Dinah Laurel Lance), and yet they somehow managed to do it wrong. Rachel was a DA whose boss was killed, and she went on to convict criminals caught by Batman. Laurel was a DA whose boss was killed and she went on to...umm,what HAS she done as a DA anyway? Seriously, I'm drawing blank here. They opened the season by having her partner with Oliver in the whole "catch and cook" thing, then proceeded to do nothing with it I can remember. As the season went on I thought maybe they were going to have her see the corruption and legal tricks and get disenfranchised with the system and starting to think maybe Oliver was right and begin her training with Ted. Instead, there have been a couple of episodes where it's mentioned she was busy doing paperwork, she worked with Ted for a couple more before he disappeared, and then they just crammed her into the Canary suit and put her out on the street. The whole thing boggles my mind. They had two and a half seasons to set up the groundwork for her to be, or become, a fighter and a costumed vigilante, yet never bothered to show she even had any such inclinations until the second half of this season? Diggle was a soldier. Roy had years of fighting and parkour on the streets to give him an edge. We're still watching Oliver's journey. He's not even the Green Arrow yet and she is already the Black Canary?

[nksarmi]

Well in fairness to Laurel as an ADA - Oliver hasn't caught many criminals this season, has he? I mean there's Brick and he kind of had nothing to do with that.  And he's letting one the most serious criminals on the show sleep on his sister's couch even though she doesn't want it.  They should have done the "you catch em, I'll cook em" in season two when Oliver still fought bad guys.

[tv echo]

From Paul Blackthorne's ET Online interview (posted in the News thread)...

Blackthorne: It’s tragic for Lance. He’s lost one daughter running around in a mask and leather outfit, now here he is with another daughter doing exactly the same thing. [Laurel] was the one who grew up as a bookworm and Sara was the adventurer and the fighter, so it makes no sense [to Lance] whatsoever that Laurel is pursuing this line. It breaks Lance’s heart that he could lose another daughter in such away. That’s one of the reasons he’s so upset with her too. He thinks she’s a fish out of water and she has no business in this world, and he’s going to do everything in his power to stop her from doing that but she’s a hard-headed woman. She’s got a strong will. She’s doing it whether he likes it or not.

It makes no sense to me either.

Edited April 15, 2015 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

Laurel in the mask makes no sense to us viewers either, Paul. 

 

I still don't get how Laurel can go by her comic name when she's no where near ready to be out in the field, while Oliver can't go by his. 

Edited April 15, 2015 by Sakura12

[looptab]

I expected Barry going 'Uh?' When Felicity told him Laurel was Black Canary. Are we supposed to believe that her heroics have reached and are well-known in Central City?

[FurryFury]

I prefer to think Barry just didn't care.

[Delphi]

I'm sure she just didn't care. I would have loved it so much more if she had just been like, "Laurel is pretending to be her sister." But that wouldn't really lead viewers into next week.

[SonofaBiscuit]

From MG's tumblr :

 

Marc, are you and your writers aware of the legacy of Black Canary?! Seriously EVERY SHOW you guys are minimizing her capabilities. In comics she's known as one of the best fighters in the universe - yall made her the worst. She's known to be a metahuman - yall give her some device. She's one of the only ppl to actually

go into the Lazarus pit - y'all are doing that to Thea

. You also gave Sin to Sara & Laurel can't ride a motorcycle. WHAT ARE YOU DOING??! Why are you mistreating the character?

 

 

Honestly, I think that maybe the expectations are too high here.  The Laurel that we know had some basic self defense training and a few months of boxing lessons.  She's hardly prepared to be one of the "best fighters in the universe."  And the Canary Cry thing might look awesome in comics (I guess, don't know), but watching Laurel break people's eardrums by screaming at the top of her lungs would be awful.  Fucking awful, in fact.  As for the motorcycle?  Yeah, no.  If they had shown her riding a motorcycle back in season 1, maybe I could buy it, but I have a hard time picturing Laurel zipping around town in her pantsuit and biker helmet.  Just curious, do you guys see many Laurel fans that are unhappy with her development, or is this comment an anomaly?

[Sakura12]

Laurel fans of have complaints with what us Sara fans were sure made Sara the Black Canary, with her being a master martial artist, master of multiple weapons, rode a motorcycle, took in an orphan named Sin, fought for women, and had sonic scream devices which the comic BC did use at one time. That is the comic BC. 

 

I don't know what Laurel is supposed to be. If Ray's lame Iron Man, Laurel is lame Canary. 

[wonderwall]

 

yall made her the worst

 

This little sentence gives me life because it tells MG that even Laurel fans don't like her :p It's not the sort of thing you want to tell MG. So that comment, while it was supposed to tell Marc to do better with Laurel, it actually tells Marc that even to Laurel fans think she's a failure. 

[Carrie Ann]

Most of the complaints I see from Laurel-BC fans seem to want her to just automatically be the Best At Everything like BC is in the comics, and the problem is that's not how Laurel was written. But a lot of BC fans get up in arms every time she isn't the best or isn't given everything on the show. She's the female lead, in case you haven't heard.

 

The problem is in the formation of the character, and honestly, I don't think comic BC fans are ever going to get what they want out of Laurel or this show. It would be completely unrealistic if they did. Like, when is Laurel going to turn into the World's Greatest Martial Artist? When she's 40? That takes a hell of a long time, and she's too old to just start from scratch now and the show will be over before they should even TRY selling that. I appreciated MG's response there, even though I don't really buy it because I DO think they're going to rush this BC thing along faster than I will find believable.

[Chaser]

I have no idea how Laurel fans feel about her arc. But I can imagine a fair share of them felt as soon as she put on the mask and got the name she would be The Black Canary comic fans knew and TV fans were told about. Instead she has the mask and the name but her fans get to watch her get her butt kicked, have to be saved all the time and frankly only shown as competent when she is playing the lawyer card. Sara didn't help; they probably feel owed after Sara came in and was basically everything you would expect the Black Canary to be. I can imagine they thought Laurel would be on par right off the bat. Episodes like 3x19 can't help either, we all thought that when she became BC she would be A-Plot all the way but she was regulated to one lawyer scene and not involved in Oliver's emotional arc, the villain take down or presumably saving Roy - Everything that Team Arrow (with guest star Palmer) was doing.

 

Even with a suited up Laurel, in some ways she is still separated from the core dynamic. As much as some of us has complain about the lessening of Team Arrow this season, whenever Oliver has an emotional moment its with Diggle or Felicity (with an occasional appearance of Roy). His scenes with Laurel tend to be aggressive or superficial. 

[Sakura12]

They want Laurel to be comic BC, but we already had comic BC, even the comic BC and Arrow team up last season. 

[nksarmi]

Basically - Sara was the Black Canary from the comics. 

 

Laurel is a made up character going by that name. I'm disappointed they didn't setup her backstory better.  I think almost everyone on this board has come up with something Laurel could have done as a teen that would have set her up for training later in life. Even if they didn't want to make her a badass fighter as a teenager, they should have made her a gymnast or a dancer so we know Laurel has some natural grace and sense of balance and things that a fighter needs.  I do happen to have a friend who just earned her black belt a couple of years ago in her late 30s, so I believe you can start late - but she isn't going to be the "greatest fighter ever" either. :)

 

Anyway, while it kind of sucks that the EP's made Sara the BC from comics and seem to be doing something else entirely with Laurel - fans are just going to have to accept it.  The EPs need to focus on what will make their character work and stop having her do things that are going to make fans like her less (like lie to her dad about Sara's death).  The character just can't take anymore strikes against her.  Do they hate the actress or something?  Do they want to fire her, but can't?  Because it's starting to look like they have a real thing against this poor woman.

[KirkB]

I think the issue for some people is that we're watching Laurel's journey to becoming Black Canary. We haven't really had to see anyone else go through this. When we first meet Oliver Queen he is already a bad ass fighter and arrow shooting machine. Diggle is a former special ops soldier. Even Roy was doing parkour and street fighting before he showed up. This is made worse by the fact that Laurel's sister, her younger and immature sister, showed up alive and well for the first time on the series wearing the costume of and having virtually every single trait of what people who knew of the character expected of her,,,except the name. I don't know why they want to show this aspect of Laurel's development when they have deliberately avoided it with every other character, but it's backfiring in the worse possible ways since most non-Laurel fans don't want screen time wasted watching her train and most Laurel fans just want her to be the Black Canary already.

[Sakura12]

I used to think they loved KC, but the way they treat Laurel and have her do idiotic things does make it look like they hate her. 

 

They didn't even have to show us Laurel's story. They could've already started that from the pilot. She's a Lawyer that takes martial arts classes or she could've already been a black belt. But they wanted her to be the damsel so Oliver can save her, they mention she has basic self defense training but barely let her use it, she beat up a spoiled club owner that didn't know she was there and gets in one punch then gets held hostage. With that I consider her training very basic. 

 

Laurel is a made up character going by that name.

 

^ This so much.

[Chaser]

I think the issue for some people is that we're watching Laurel's journey to becoming Black Canary. We haven't really had to see anyone else go through this. When we first meet Oliver Queen he is already a bad ass fighter and arrow shooting machine. Diggle is a former special ops soldier. Even Roy was doing parkour and street fighting before he showed up. This is made worse by the fact that Laurel's sister, her younger and immature sister, showed up alive and well for the first time on the series wearing the costume of and having virtually every single trait of what people who knew of the character expected of her,,,except the name. I don't know why they want to show this aspect of Laurel's development when they have deliberately avoided it with every other character, but it's backfiring in the worse possible ways since most non-Laurel fans don't want screen time wasted watching her train and most Laurel fans just want her to be the Black Canary already.

Technically, they are showing Oliver's development in flashbacks. In a way, Sara's as well because of the time they spent on the island together and we at least know her history with the LOA. Diggle fought in a freaking WAR. I think this can add to the problem because can Laurel's really compare? I understand losing Tommy, but her 'crucible' in S2 was of her own making. So were some elements of S3, choosing to lie to her father destroyed that relationship. 

[tarotx]

I personally think they should give Laural the Manhunter suit. They can still call her Black Canary (with the potentially stupid cry) but have her in a suit that helps her out. After a summer training with Nyssa and the manhunter suit she could be a lot closer to the crazy good fighter Of the comic books.

And that just leaves her to have an emotional and mental growth.

[wingster55]

Technically, they are showing Oliver's development in flashbacks.

 

Poorly. Because I still view this Oliver as being 10 times the fighter past Ollie is. And they don't show him learning Mandarin and I doubt we'll see him learn Russian next season (or season 5) 

[nksarmi]

Poorly. Because I still view this Oliver as being 10 times the fighter past Ollie is. And they don't show him learning Mandarin and I doubt we'll see him learn Russian next season (or season 5) 

This used to really, really bug me.  In season one they said he spoke Mandarin so well he could be mistaken for a native speaker and then this season he can still only speak a few words of Chinese.  Plus I don't feel like we got enough of him training with Shado to know her/her father's moves. 

 

BUT with all that has gone wrong with the present day story - including Oliver's stupid motivations for keeping Merlyn alive - I've given up on them adequately checking off all the boxes to bring past Oliver up to code with season one Oliver.

[looptab]

As for MG's explanation, I agree. I don't think that's it at all. I think Oliver refuses to train Laurel or help her in any way because he wants her to give up the vigilante life. In a way, yes because he cares, but also because he doesn't think she fits. Not just into his team, but as a vigilante at all. He's all about control, superior skill, sacrifice. And Laurel is reckless, unskilled and selfish (in her motivation for becoming a vigilante). As for Ray, I think Oliver trains him a) because he needs him to accomplish this particular mission and that means getting him up to snuff, and b) yes, because he doesn't care, but also because while he doesn't know Ray enough to know if his heart is in the right place, he's willing to trust Felicity's judgment in this case.

I've read some complaints about Oliver's (and the writers) double standards regarding Laurel's vigilantism and everyone else's. His attitude towards her is pretty much "if you have to be here at least try and don't stand in my way/don't get yourself killed". He has opposed her in the beginning and now he's just resigned, while with Ray/Roy, for as much as he was opposed to them going out in the field, in the end he supports them and even gives them pep-talks and encouraging speeches.

 

Now, I can see why people would be pissed off about this. Why does he have to be a controlling dick just with the woman, of all the incompetent vigilantes?

The "I care about you" stuff only goes so far. And I believe this is the writers' messed up way to put Laurel in a better light, showing how she doesn't give a damn and goes her own way. Even with everyone against her, even if she sucks, she comes out on top (or at least that's what they like to tell us).

 

If I cared about the character at all I think I'd be pissed, too. The point is that I couldn't care less, so whenever Oliver/the show/the pizza-delivery man points out how much of a liability she is, I can't help but cheer them on. Because he is right, and that's not her place, and hell, I'd believe more Akio being a fighter than her.

#sorrynotsorry

 

Thoughts?

Edited April 17, 2015 by looptab

[KirkB]

Thoughts? Well, for one, now I want to see Akio in the buckle suit.

[tarotx]

Roy had experience and Ray has his suit. Laurel is a lawyer. Plus Oliver worked and trained with Sara and even the huntress a bit. It's just Laurel he doesn't want to train or maybe be around period.

Eck I keep misspelling Laurel. >.<

Edited April 18, 2015 by tarotx

[steeledwithakiss]

I too still believe she has no business being a vigilante. I don't believe in her reasons for being one, i don't think she has the skills nor that she could realistically one day acquire them. Quentin pisses me off but what she's doing to him, becoming a vigilante after that life killed her sister and knowing how that destroyed her family strike me as being very selfish. Sara and Oliver went through hell and I understand them thinking they can't ever have a normal life because they've changed so much during those 5 years. Laurel has lived through tragedy but so has Quentin and we don't see him running in leather. He decided to use what he was already doing, a cop and sometimes work with the Arrow for the good of the city. It's supposedly her calling but why? She's never talked about wanting to being one, on the contrary it seemed to go against everything she believes in. Can't she be a lawyer that fight in the courtroom? I'm angry everytime I see her in the field and I'm glad Oliver is too. I know by the end of the season he'll probably ok with it but I don't think I'll ever be.

[lizonthefritz]

I've read some complaints about Oliver's (and the writers) double standards regarding Laurel's vigilantism and everyone else's. His attitude towards her is pretty much "if you have to be here at least try and don't stand in my way/don't get yourself killed". He has opposed her in the beginning and now he's just resigned, while with Ray/Roy, for as much as he was opposed to them going out in the field, in the end he supports them and even gives them pep-talks and encouraging speeches.

 

Now, I can see why people would be pissed off about this. Why does he have to be a controlling dick just with the woman, of all the incompetent vigilantes?

The "I care about you" stuff only goes so far. And I believe this is the writers' messed up way to put Laurel in a better light, showing how she doesn't give a damn and goes her own way. Even with everyone against her, even if she sucks, she comes out on top (or at least that's what they like to tell us).

 

If I cared about the character at all I think I'd be pissed, too. The point is that I couldn't care less, so whenever Oliver/the show/the pizza-delivery man points out how much of a liability she is, I can't help but cheer them on. Because he is right, and that's not her place, and hell, I'd believe more Akio being a fighter than her.

#sorrynotsorry

 

Thoughts?

 

My take on the difference between Laurel and the other vigilantes: Oliver doesn't trust her. Doesn't trust her skills, doesn't trust her motives. And another difference between her and the others is that he's forced to go out and fight with her, not knowing if her inexperience is going to become a liability to him in said fight.

 

All the other vigilantes Oliver comes across have their own motives, their own fights. But Laurel just sort of tags along on his missions for some ungodly reason. Shouldn't she be out there finding her own missions? Helping others because it's the right thing to do?

Edited April 17, 2015 by lizonthefritz

[dtissagirl]

I think the excuse is true: Oliver doesn't want this life for Laurel, so he's not gonna help her. He comes off super controlling, sure, but that works for Oliver. I'm also forever amused that Stephen kind of makes Oliver look at Laurel with WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE? written on his forehead, in all foundry scenes, so I'm good with that.

But I also think it's external factors mostly. They seem to have realized that a Black Canary origin story could not be tied to Oliver, hence Laurel bucking up when Oliver wasn't there. Done deal and accepted by the rest of the team when he came back. I also suspect they try to keep the Laurel and Oliver scenes to the strict minimum required, because of the fatigue/frustration of the previous two seasons, and their relationship collapse.

Edited April 17, 2015 by dancingnancy

[steeledwithakiss]

What a weird dynamic those two have (O/L). They supposedly loved each other but they don't look like they even like each other.

 

After Sara's death I don't think I could ever buy Oliver training her. He can't stop her but I appreciate that he doesn't help her either. And I agree, Laurel is always on about wanting do this for her own reasons, how she doesn't need his blessing, how she's not part of his team. Still she's a the lair every day, acting like she is part of the team.

Edited April 17, 2015 by steeledwithakiss

[lizonthefritz]

I think the excuse is true: Oliver doesn't want this life for Laurel, so he's not gonna help her. He comes off super controlling, sure, but that works for Oliver. I'm also forever amused that Stephen kind of makes Oliver look at Laurel with WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE? written on his forehead, in all foundry scenes, so I'm good with that.

But I also think it's external factors mostly. They seem to have realized that a Black Canary origin story could not be tied to Oliver, hence Laurel bucking up when Oliver wasn't there. Done deal and accepted by the rest of the team when he came back. I also suspect they try to keep the Laurel and Oliver scenes to the strict minimum required, because of the fatigue/frustration of the previous two seasons, and their relationship collapse.

To me, this doesn't count as a strike against Oliver because the only reason he comes off as super controlling is because she's always horning in on HIS mission. Like, if she'd only go off and do her own thing, he wouldn't have to tell her to get some training because HE WOULDN'T BE THERE. So why does she keep tagging along where she's not wanted instead of doing her own thing? (Other than for plot reasons.)

 

Honestly, as much as I don't care for more screentime for Laurel, pleeeease give her her own story, and her own supporting players so she can get the hell off of Team Arrow.

Edited April 17, 2015 by lizonthefritz

[ostentatious]

Stephen's performance just gives me the overall sense that he finds her presence unpleasant, and why should he train a lawyer who annoys him? It's not like she's needed. At least with Roy, he liked the guy, and found the lil bro/big bro dynamic compelling. The fact that Roy admired him and looked to him for guidance tripped a switch. Without heroing, Roy was lost. He needed it. Laurel is better off doing her actual job. Everyone is better off when she's doing her actual job.

If I have a skill set does that mean I have to pass it on to anyone who is interested even if I don't like being around them? I do believe Oliver cares about Laurel, but I also believe that if he never saw her again he'd be relieved, as long as he knew she was ok. He does. not. like. having her up in his business.

Edited April 17, 2015 by ostentatious

[looptab]

 I'm also forever amused that Stephen kind of makes Oliver look at Laurel with WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE? written on his forehead, in all foundry scenes, so I'm good with that.

 

The same expression we all have, so? :)

 

I don't know how much of a matter of trust it is, however. True, he doesn't have to go out with Palmer, but I wouldn't say Oliver trusts him. I'm fine with the "trusting Felicity's judgement", except Felicity apparently is still resenting from that explosion in the premiere, because she has been siding with laurel, too. She is not all that reliable on this matter :D

Edited April 17, 2015 by looptab

[Sakura12]

Plus the other vigilantes Oliver came across were already skilled fighters. He even wanted to test Sara and took her to fight the mayor. She more then proved herself so he gladly took her with on missions last season. He took Helena too.

So I don't see it has Oliver doesn't like Laurel going out there because she's a woman. He doesn't want her out there because she has no training. As for not training her. It's not his job and I take it also has his respecting what Sara would want (not what Laurel thinks, because she never really knew her sister). She wouldn't want Laurel out there.

[lizonthefritz]

The same expression we all have, so? :)

 

I don't know how much of a matter of trust it is, however. True, he hasn't to go out with Palmer, but I wouldn't say Oliver trusts him. I'm fine with the "trusting Felicity's judgement", except Felicity apparently is still resenting from that explosion in the premiere, because she has been siding with laurel, too. She is not all that reliable on this matter :D

I don't really mean "trust them as a person", but "trust them as a vigilante". He knows enough about Laurel to know her skills are limited and her motives are shaky at best.

[looptab]

Yeah, I totally agree. I don't think he has a problem with her being a woman. The point - which is not even My point, I just read it around the net and thought of bringing it here- is that he is opposing the woman among the newbies. All of the newbies are untrained. He did train Roy. He encouraged Ray. But he hasn't trained her (For outside reasons we know). He snaps at her and tells her she is an addict - which I enjoy way more than I should (and, which strangely, some people see as a foundation for a love/hate relationship-how?! whatever)

 

It's a bit tricky, objectively speaking.

 

@lizonthefritz: Yeah, I know what you meant. Still, I wouldn't say he trusts Ray's ability in the field. And with reason, because for all of his supersuit Ray got his ass kicked repeatedly. :)

Edited April 17, 2015 by looptab