Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Carrie Ann]

I've seen a lot of people who felt Laurel was really improved in this episode, but to me, this just seemed like more of the same. Like that scene with Quentin. How did it actually go down? Laurel came in with takeout, trying to give a peace offering or just bring things back to normal, and then she basically told him that there's a pattern for this dynamic with them (where she sucks, he gets upset, has a delayed reaction, and then they make up), and that she's impatient for him to just get on with it already. She demanded that he act the way she wanted him to. To his credit, he didn't. But I'm not going to feel sorry for her that she was an awful human being for five months and now her father isn't handling it the way she wants him to, on her particular timeline. Do the writers think I will? That's where I'm confused. It really feels like they want us to take Laurel's side, or at least feel sympathetic to both sides, and I just don't.

 

And yes, the continued delusion and defensiveness about being skilled. It would go such a long way if the show would let Laurel be humble--truly humble, doubtful, deferential. But it's like they want her to have the BC attitude with no skills to back it up, and that just does nothing good for LL as a character. But I don't think they don't care about her character. They care about her name and her costume.

 

So I will say that I sort of liked the feeling of the scene with LL/Nyssa, but I still find it hard to root for it, because it does just feel like one more thing she gets to have that Sara doesn't. It's a reminder that Sara was sacrificed for Laurel, and now she gets to pick up all the pieces Sara left behind, without the trauma or years of training. Win-win! Anyway, I will hope against hope, and against all previous evidence, that they let Nyssa's training truly humble Laurel. That they will let it progress at a believable rate, in a plausible way. That Nyssa will not just be on propping duty. And that for the love of all that is holy, they will never ever explore a Laurel/Nyssa relationship.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[bethy]

 

And yes, the continued delusion and defensiveness about being skilled. It would go such a long way if the show would let Laurel be humble--truly humble, doubtful, deferential. But it's like they want her to have the BC attitude with no skills to back it up, and that just does nothing good for LL as a character. But I don't think they don't care about her character. They care about her name and her costume.

 

 

This is what kind of kills me about how they're dealing with Laurel's rise to Black Canary. They say, "Hey, she won't be instantly a bad ass. She'll get beat up!" and then talk about how "tough" and "strong" she is to keep on fighting. But it's not tough or strong to repeatedly put not just yourself (that, to me, would be a different issue), but your team and others in danger because you aren't sufficiently trained. It's not admirable to me that the character is reckless. It's not admirable to me that Laurel continues to be smug and bitchy when she's incompetent at this point. 

 

If they would let Laurel truly fail and admit her short comings and have others actually acknowledge the issues and then help her overcome them, I'd be so much more interested in this character. That's the kind of growth I'd like to see, and I just haven't. 

[Chaser]

I think what helped Laurel in the Quentin scene is that Quentin was having an appropriate response to her actions. If he had forgave her, people would not be so forgiving to Laurel. It would be another person bending to make Laurel work. This is what I mean when I say that how characters respond to each other is just as important as the characters themselves. Laurel is the one at fault, not Quentin.

 

Were they implying that Laurel hasn't been training? She rolled her eyes at Oliver when he pointed it out to her. I really do get the impression that Laurel goes to work at the DA's office and suits up with no thought to training.

[calliope1975]

I did watch some of the Laurel scenes last night and found the same off-putting, entitled, rude character I'd seen before. Without the skills to back up the attitude, I can't sympathize or connect with the character. I do understand why some found her more palatable with Nyssa, but I think she's too far gone for me. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

For me personally, the biggest issue with Laurel is not the writing, but one of the problems with the writing is that when the character gets to a place where detractors find her either tolerable or likable, the writers have Laurel do something absolutely heinous.  It seemed like people were warming up to her earlier this season, but then she continued to hide Sara's death from her father and went way too far over the line with the voice modulator fakeout.  So honestly, I'm fully expecting her to do some completely awful shit before this season is over.

[wonderwall]

I think more and more people are still warming up to her. I don't see a lot of people/critics chastising Laurel for her decisions. Instead, I saw people commending Laurel for finally telling her father the truth. And then the writers made Quentin extremely harsh which also offers Laurel some points because now people are saying "poor Laurel". So the writers seem to be doing something right? I just think that her interactions with Nyssa might save her character for a lot of people. I'm not one of them, but I'm seeing Nyssa have a positive effect on how people take Laurel

[slayer2]

I'm really excited about Nyssa training Laurel. I really didn't want her trained by a man and I adore Nyssa probably more than most on the show.

[Sakura12]

I'm not excited about that, all that shows me is Laurel got Sara's name, her costume, her legacy, and now her ex girlfriend. Laurel didn't have to do any work to earn any of that. Sara dying is how she got everything. Laurel bitching about Sara stealing her life (which was nothing but a fantasy) when in fact Laurel has stolen Sara's life. I'm sure if Bex wasn't on another show, Sin would've been given to Laurel too. 

 

We got what 3 episodes of Sara and Nyssa, the two that have known each other for 5 years and were dating. But get a whole bunch of scenes/episodes of Laurel and Nyssa talking about their feelings.  That's where the disconnect lies with me. I wanted to see Sara/Nyssa not Sara dead, with Laurel getting all the screentime with Nyssa. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by Sakura12

[slayer2]

You can't stand Laurel so of course you're not excited about it, don't kill my vibe.

I hope they have some really intense training scenes, I really believe Nyssa to be the second down from Ra's wrt fighting so I can only imagine how hurt she is. Her and Laurel will have plenty to talk about in terms of not measuring up and I'm excited to see her have a female friend again. I miss Joanna (my Charlie's Angel) but this is a wonderful way to get Nyssa on the show on a full-time basis and Laurel can learn so much more from her than from Oliver. I think this will add to a very exciting conclusion by season's end.

Edited March 19, 2015 by slayer2

[Carrie Ann]

This is the reason I'm open to the Nyssa training piece (though I have concerns). I don't think Oliver should train her, and there's really no other current Starling resident who can/should either. Even Ted Grant isn't the right thing, because why did they even have her go to a boxing instructor in the first place??? She's not using those moves at all. (I don't understand why they couldn't just make TG a mixed-martial arts guy anyway; it's more contemporary and would have been more appropriate for BC.) So I'm glad it's Nyssa, and I hope they do it justice.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Starfish35]

I'm actually fine with Laurel training with Nyssa. And I'd rather Laurel be friends with Nyssa than with Felicity, because that's actually a connection that makes sense to me. And if it gets her out of the Arrowcave so much the better. Ideally she and Nyssa will take off together at the end of the season to recruit women for their own pseudo-Birds of Prey team, away from Starling City. (I know. Let me have my dreams.)

I think, for me, the news about Caity Lotz being in the spinoff and thus it being likely (though still unconfirmed) that Sara's returning, has taken a lot of my bitterness about her death away. I still think that it was stupid. But frankly as long as I get Sara back, Laurel can do whatever she wants (excluding Oliver).

Edited March 19, 2015 by Starfish35

[apinknightmare]

I hope they have some really intense training scenes, I really believe Nyssa to be the second down from Ra's wrt to fighting so I can only imagine how hurt she is. Her and Laurel will have plenty to talk about in terms of not measuring up and I'm excited to see her have a female friend again. I miss Joanna (my Charlie's Angel) but this is a wonderful way to get Nyssa on the show on a full-time and she can learn so much more from her than from Oliver. I think this will add to a very exciting conclusion by season's end.

 

I really like Nyssa, and I think Laurel could learn more from her than anyone else too. Mainly because the only other person who could teach her is Oliver, and apart from that not being ideal or a good idea for many reasons, they're just too adversarial, all the time, even when it's not called for, to be in a student/teacher kind of relationship. I'm actually surprised they've managed to be out in the field together largely without incident. 

 

I hope this team-up does lead to Nyssa being on more often, not just this season, but going forward. And I really hope they do the training/relationship development justice without having large amounts of it happen off screen as these idiots tend to do. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by apinknightmare

[slayer2]

This is a good point. At this stage Oliver and Laurel tolerate each other at best at worst, I don't even know. It's not the right type of chemistry for successful mentoring. Plus I'd just be offended if Oliver trained her anyways. I want her to come into her fighting independent of him (and of any man frankly) so I think this is the perfect solution. I also am excited to see Nyssa in the mentorship role and I think by season's (if not this season then next) end she will more than prove that she is the rightful heir of the throne.

I would like to see Laurel continue her friendship with Felicity because I do truly enjoy it and I think it's important on a show like this and for a character like Black Canary to bond with women.

I think wrt to the Bex comment that she has that relationship already with Thea. I enjoyed Laurel trying to protect her against Nyssa however entirely futile (because c'mon!) but I loved where her heart was in that moment.

Edited March 20, 2015 by slayer2

[catrox14]

I still can't believe Laurel makes everything about her. Every single time. Even her argument with Lance, which BTW he is absolutely entitled to take as much time as he needs to get over his anger or to never get over it. There is no requirement that Lance forgive her either.

 

I thought when she went to his office it was a nice gesture and then she brings up the dinner from last season with Sara which broke Lance's heart because that's when he discovered that Dinah had a boyfriend. Why on earth did she even bring that up? That was also the dinner in which she screamed at Sara about stealing her life.  That whole thing was weird and did nothing to make me feel sympathetic to Laurel.  Sigh. I just don't get that character at all.

[apinknightmare]

Laurel wasn't talking about the dinner with Sara - she was talking about Quentin's general cycle of working through his anger with her. Cold shoulder ---> blowing up ----> working it out over a dinner that Laurel makes him go to. That dinner with Sara wasn't something she hosted to get Quentin to forgive her for something, it was something Quentin convinced Laurel to do because he was hoping to get back together with Dinah. 

 

It was nice of her to bring him dinner, but her forgiveness entitlement is not a good look. I get that she wants/needs it since Quentin is all she has left (except for those rare occasions when this show remembers that she actually has a mother too), so there's understandable anxiousness there since in her mind she was doing what she did to protect him (and yes, I know this is arguable from a narrative perspective, but that was always Laurel's reasoning). But she's had months to work through her grief and didn't do such a good job of it at first, so she needs to give the man some time and stop expecting him to work within her timeframe. 

Edited March 20, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Menrva]

Quentin doesn't owe Laurel anything - and he never has to forgive her, damaging as it might be for both of them. And it's unfair of her to expect her father to forgive her just so she can stop feeling guilty. As always, it's about Laurel and her feelings. Concealing the truth of Sara's death wasn't about sparing her father the pain as it was about giving her the permission to assume Sara's identity and crusade.

 

It appears that the EP's plan is working on getting the viewers to accept Laurel as BC; I've seen many, many posts here about how Laurel wasn't as annoying, people didn't mind having her around, etc.  Wear us down and we have no choice but to continue watching and tolerate Laurel's presence (much like Oliver does!) or simply walk away.

 

On the other hand, as awkward and implausible as I found Nyssa seeking Laurel's company at the end of the episode, their interaction gave me some hope. First, if it means seeing more Nyssa, then I guess I'll take seeing her train Barbie Canary. (See, EPs! You've even got me grudgingly accepting Laurel. Grumble grumble…) I realized that I need to see more Katrina Law on my screen. But more importantly, it seemed that Laurel recognized that Nyssa feels ostracized and alone and that she chose to give comfort to a person in need over her immediate desire to be alone. It's a small example of generosity from a consistently selfish person, but I'm hoping it will lead to some more positive changes in Laurel.

[catrox14]

I think Nyssa is using Laurel. Given the reveal at the end of The Offer, IMO she is going to work to turn Laurel against Oliver to prove how capable she is of being the Heir.

[KirkB]

You're probably right, in that Nyssa is using Laurel to get information and leverage against Oliver and her father, but I think she also is genuinely lonely and being around Laurel is the closest thing she has to Sara.

[statsgirl]

Katrina Law really sold it in that scene when she goes back to Laurel because she literally has no one else.  The League follows her father, Sara is dead and she has no other life.  Laurel is the only one she can talk to.

 

Quentin also doesn't have anyone.  He hasn't been seen talking to anyone on the force since his partner was killed, he's lost Dinah, Sara is dead and now he can't trust Laurel.  Even his "partner" the Arrow has let him down.  (I really wanted to take Laurel aside and smack her for forcing Quentin to forgive her when he's clearly not ready.)  Meanwhile, Laurel still has her mother, she has Team Arrow, and she has whatever friends we never see on the show.  Even her hardship isn't the work, as put in context by the latest Lord Mesa drawing.

 

This is a problem the show continually does, that they want us to sympathize with "Everyone leaves me" Laurel, when really she's got it the best on the show.

[catrox14]

Quote

Cold shoulder ---> blowing up ----> working it out over a dinner that Laurel makes him go to. That dinner with Sara wasn't something she hosted to get Quentin to forgive her for something, it was something Quentin convinced Laurel to do because he was hoping to get back together with Dinah.

I thought that was a direct call back to that dinner. I don't recall there being a pattern established that Laurel does something shitty, Quentin gets mad and yells at her over dinner. But to be fair, I spend most Laurel centric scenes rolling my eyes so I might have missed this cycle. I do remember Quentin asking Laurel to dinner to get her to go to an AA meeting after she got caught drunk driving.

Quentin was going to host that dinner if I recall, but Laurel said, no, Dad your apartment is too small and that she would do it at her place. Then it all fell apart when Sara showed up with Oliver, which I get her being upset about that. Quentin felt like Laurel ruined HIS dinner party and it was his dinner party, because she couldn't/wouldn't keep quiet about Sara and Oliver. Laurel could have waited until after the party to yell at Sara. But then we wouldn't have had her throwing the glass at the door either. And then Quentin was heart broken about Dinah. Laurel had been pretty much a selfish asshat for most of s2. So for me in The Offer her mentioning this supposed pattern fell flat for me because I just don't remember said pattern.

Edited March 20, 2015 by catrox14

[KirkB]

I think at least some people WOULD be able to sympathize more with Laurel if they didn't have her demanding it every other episode. She's not the only one on the show who has lost someone, she just seems to act like it. Yes, she is allowed to grieve however she needs to, as is everyone else, which she also seems to have a hard time with. The way they have her treating Quentin, whether they intend it this way or not, comes across (to me) as "I know you're upset Dad but don't you see how Sara dying and my lying to you about it for so long and now you being upset hurts ME?" What the EP's, in my opinion, are overlooking this season is while putting on a mask and getting to be the Black Canary is great for Laurel and her fans, there has to be more to a character arc than just "I have a costume too now!" 

Edited March 20, 2015 by KirkB

[catrox14]

I think at least some people WOULD be able to sympathize more with Laurel if they didn't have her demanding it every other episode. She's not the only one on the show who has lost someone, she just seems to act like it. Yes, she is allowed to grieve however she needs to, as is everyone else, which she also seems to have a hard time with. The way they have her treating Quentin, whether they intend it this way or not, comes across as "I know you're upset Dad but don't you see how Sara dying and my lying to you about it for so long and now you being upset hurts ME?" What the EP's, in opinion, are overlooking this season is while putting on a mask and getting to be the Black Canary is great for Laurel and her fans, there has to be more to a character arc than just "I have a costume too now!" 

 

Not only that, re the bold part, they have spent 2.5 seasons making Laurel unlikeable in general whether that was intentional or not, I can't say, but essentially that was the end result. What they should have done/should be doing is making Laurel likeable or at least rootable BEFORE shoving her into a mask, especially after killing off a Black Canary that seemed was already kicking ass and taking names and seemed generally well liked by much of the audience. And even if not liked, I don't think she was actively loathed like Laurel has been for the most part.  By just handing her a mask (see also stealing Sara's mask ) they are not making her that much more likeable, just something I feel like I must accept or stop watching. Now, I would be perfectly fine if they just decided to make Laurel a villain and then all of her being yucky for 2.5 season would have a decent payoff.  For me, any way.  YMMV

[Sakura12]

I still hate that we are getting so much Nyssa and Laurel, why couldn't they have Nyssa around more when Sara was alive? What was the point of putting them in a relationship if we weren't going to see them together all that much? Instead they have Nyssa hanging around more with Sara's straight sister. 

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sakura12

[KirkB]

Simple. They underestimated how popular Nyssa and Sara as characaters, not to mention Nyssa AND Sara, were going to be. But they are aware of it now and are hoping to use Nyssa's popularity to drum up support for Laurel.

[Sakura12]

Well that seems to be working, since people will be happy if Nyssa takes Laurel away from Team Arrow. While as a Sara fan I'm pissed that Laurel is just being given everything Sara had including her friends. 

 

I have no idea what the EP's were thinking when the brought in Sara and not only made her an already costumed hero they gave her everything that makes the Black Canary, The BLACK CANARY. Then kill her off and just start handing everything of Sara's to Laurel without Laurel doing any work and say she's the Black Canary. 

[catrox14]

Well that seems to be working, since people will be happy if Nyssa takes Laurel away from Team Arrow. While as a Sara fan I'm pissed that Laurel is just being given everything Sara had including her friends. 

 

I have no idea what the EP's were thinking when the brought in Sara and not only made her an already costumed hero they gave her everything that makes the Black Canary, The BLACK CANARY. Then kill her off and just start handing everything of Sara's to Laurel without Laurel doing any work and say she's the Black Canary. 

 It really is one of the biggest blunders either way. 

[icandigit]

I was pretty turned off by her scene with Nyssa. She comes off pretty stank. And it's like I guess you mere heir to the demon is worthy of my precious time. Can't stand her. But, as long as it gets her away from Oliver. Makes sense she has no friends.

Edited March 20, 2015 by icandigit

[statsgirl]

I got them impression that Laurel and Quentin had a pattern -- that Laurel would do something that made Quentin upset, he would avoid her for a while, she would drag him to a dinner and he would forgive her. This time he's not accepting her offerings of food and she's angry that he won't forgive her on her timetable

.

Simple. They underestimated how popular Nyssa and Sara as characaters, not to mention Nyssa AND Sara, were going to be. But they are aware of it now and are hoping to use Nyssa's popularity to drum up support for Laurel.

Like they tried to do with the scenes with Felicity, and that really back-fired on them.

 

While I resent Laurel getting everything Sara had just because Sara had the wrong name, I think Nyssa can stand up to scenes with Laurel better than Felicity or Roy could.

 

But the best thing they could do for Laurel is cut down on the narcissism.  I don't think they need to change the character completely, but if she had gone in asking for Quentin's forgiveness and talking about how she felt that she couldn't lose him if he did have a heart attack rather than demanding he make up with her right now, she would have got a lot of good points.

[kismet]

I got them impression that Laurel and Quentin had a pattern -- that Laurel would do something that made Quentin upset, he would avoid her for a while, she would drag him to a dinner and he would forgive her. This time he's not accepting her offerings of food and she's angry that he won't forgive her on her timetable

.

Like they tried to do with the scenes with Felicity, and that really back-fired on them.

 

While I resent Laurel getting everything Sara had just because Sara had the wrong name, I think Nyssa can stand up to scenes with Laurel better than Felicity or Roy could.

 

But the best thing they could do for Laurel is cut down on the narcissism.  I don't think they need to change the character completely, but if she had gone in asking for Quentin's forgiveness and talking about how she felt that she couldn't lose him if he did have a heart attack rather than demanding he make up with her right now, she would have got a lot of good points.

Absolutely correct, narcissism is a good way to describe some of her behavior. It fits her pattern of me first and her inability to see how some of her actions are destructive to herself and others. I know she dedicated a lot of her life to "trying to save the world" as many people on the show have mentioned. But one has to wonder if she did all of that in part because she enjoyed the recognition & praise she got from it. I'm not saying it is her primary reason, but there has to be some external motivation she feels when people praise her for always wanting to save the world.

 

It would have been a completely different and still powerful scene if she had chosen to go to her father and express her reasons for not telling him. Explaining her fears and that what she did it was out of love. Her being open & vulnerable would have been a welcome change. I do not think it would have changed Lance's mind and rightly so. He may love his daughter but this betrayal is going to be a hard thing to forgive. I think he will most likely forgive the Arrow before he forgives his daughter. The Arrow owed him the truth, but they are not family so the betrayal is not as high. But as it stands now, even knowing her reasons still find what her character did reprehensible & unforgivable in the near future. The Arrow not telling him, I think can be attributed to not his place to tell, especially since Laurel was so adamant not to tell. I wonder if QL

finding out that OQ is the Arrow will have any influence on how if & when he forgives them for their roles in covering up Sara's death.

. The other major difference is that OQ never directly lied to QL about Sara's death, where LL actively made up lies and willingly misdirected her father on multiple occasions. Thats a betrayal that runs deeper than just not telling him.

[chaos is welcome]

Bringing this over from QUARKS post on the ep thread for the Offer.

 

 

Don't get me wrong: I appreciate that the show isn't making Laurel an instant vigilante. But continuing to go into the field after this sort of failure rate doesn't make me admire her - although I get that the show thinks it should. It makes me think that what she should be doing is exactly what she originally said she would be doing: pretend to be the Canary to intimidate criminals, rather than actually try to be the Canary until she's trained to do so - or learns how to properly use Sara's sonic device. I'll be honest, too: part of me is reacting this way because until/unless Thea and/or Nyssa join the group, Laurel is the only Team Arrow woman fighting in the field  (I'm not counting Felicity running over Isabel in the van) - and it bothers me that although Oliver, Diggle and Roy have also needed to be rescued, they haven't needed it quite as often.

 

SO MUCH THIS.  I really think this is why I will never, ever get behind Laurel's buckle canary.  Sara was a fully formed female hero with a dark past, but a good heart.  Laurel has a history of self imposed problems and always starts her sentences with "I".  I will never forgive them destroying the Sara Canary for this version and giving us Buckles instead. Because she is a female super hero I can never, ever get behind or route for.  

[BkWurm1]

I was pretty turned off by her scene with Nyssa. She comes off pretty stank. And it's like I guess you mere heir to the demon is worthy of my precious time. Can't stand her. But, as long as it gets her away from Oliver. Makes sense she has no friends.

It's interesting.  I rewatched that Nyssa/Laurel scene and it's true, Laurel has a horrid attitude like normal.  She's snide, she's abrupt, she's ungrateful and acts completely superior.  It's not that Laurel is a better behaving human being around Nyssa, or even that Nyssa is so fun that I forget about Laurel (though that IS a part of it) it's that  for me Nyssa has a completely believable reason for wanting to be around Laurel and on top of that, Nyssa manages to be sympathetic enough that I find myself wanting Nyssa to get what she wants even if that is hanging with Laurel. 

 

It's also helpful that I know if Laurel steps too far out of line Nyssa probably would just kill her, lol. 

Edited March 28, 2015 by BkWurm1

[shadow2008]

^ I would have to agree with those sentiments. To my surprise, I really enjoyed the Nyssa/Laurel scene in 3x16 but when I rewatched it, I was struck by Laurel's rude tone towards Nyssa. I don't know what it is, but there is just something about the way KC delivers her lines that always makes her character seem snippy and unlikable. It reminds me a lot of Laurie Holden in The Walking Dead, whose character Andrea always came off smug no matter the scene she was in. I guess I still like the Nyssa/Laurel moment, but mainly because it allowed us to see a new, softer side to Nyssa's character. I don't think we have ever seen her be that vulnerable on the show before. So, I guess I am still looking forward to the upcoming Nyssa/Laurel interaction because I see it as an opportunity for positive character development for both women, but Nyssa in particular.

[wonderwall]

You know this episode showed me that Laurel COULD work on this show. To me she'd only work as a secondary character who is usually in the background with a few moments. She works as a hardass Lawyer because that's the most believable to me. Laurel actually contributes as a lawyer instead of being a nuisance as a vigilante. I wish this was her only role... Alas we aren't so lucky. 

[wonderwall]

Interesting discussion in the spoiler thread. Question, do you guys think that laurel should train and be mostly competent before she galvants around town in a mask? Or do you think it's fine that even though she has little to no skills that it's okay because she can learn on the job?

[apinknightmare]

I think it's impossible to be "fully trained" before going out and being a masked vigilante. There are always things you can only learn on the job. I do think Laurel went out too quickly and that she's still a liability to the people who are out with her, but they're not concerned enough about it to leave her behind, so I'm not gonna be. Of course, plot dictates it, but...y'know. 

[wonderwall]

Lol yeah I know one can't be completely trained which is why I said mostly competent or capable. :)

[statsgirl]

Laurel thinks she's competent enough and she's not going to let anyone stop her from going out.

 

On the whole, letting her go out with them so they can keep her from getting hurt too much seems to be the best option.

[apinknightmare]

Lol yeah I know one can't be completely trained which is why I said mostly competent or capable. :)

 

Yeah, I know, I just...she's pretty competent for what she does for the most part, isn't she? She can hold her own well enough, apart from the times she's blatantly needed to be rescued in order to remind us that she still needs work - she hasn't gotten herself nearly killed in a while. Progress!

[statsgirl]

It wasn't a question in the last episode (ep 317) because she didn't go out as BC. The one before that (316), Oliver had to save her from a truck driving through her.

 

I thought Laurel was the best she's ever been in Suicidal Tendencies when she metaphorically kicked Ray in the balls and helped save Oliver.  I don't understand why they're making her a barely competent BC instead of a kickass lawyer. Other than Comics! that is.

[catrox14]

Laurel thinks she's competent enough and she's not going to let anyone stop her from going out.

 

On the whole, letting her go out with them so they can keep her from getting hurt too much seems to be the best option.

 

Except then she's a liability because the rest of TA is worrying about protecting her from herself instead of protecting themselves. So yes IMO she needs a crapload more training before being out there galavanting with TA.

[Sakura12]

If Laurel is going out into the field she needs more training then 2 boxing lessons. Cops, FBI, Military, CIA are all trained before going out into the field. If Laurel is going to play in the big leagues she should know how to first. We can even do sports analogies. you don't take someone that played basketball in their backyard twice by themselves and just put them in the NBA. That's essentially what they have done with Laurel and it's tarnishing the Black Canary name. 

[Chaser]

I think jumping the gun is very much in line with Laurel's personality. But on show that made the other heroes earn their masks, it looks bad.

[dtissagirl]

All I get from the training vs. going out untrained is that it looks like the only complaint the EPs ever heard about Laurel is that she can't be a vigilante without training.  So two things happen repetitively, in a show that's already too repetitive:

 

- she gets kicked a lot

- people tell her she's gonna get kicked because she has no training

- she talks about traning a lot

- other people mention she needs training

 

This is basically Laurel's entire schtick after buckling up. I know they lost the actor playing Ted Grant, and most likely had something else planned for him and Laurel, but I just want anything related to training to be GONE from the storyline, and for them to find something else for Laurel to do/talk about.

[apinknightmare]

^I agree. 

 

My perception is cloudy here because normally I would say yes. Train, train, train, prepare yourself up to your eyeballs. But because I don't really want to watch Laurel get that training, I don't really care if she has it. I'm willing to watch her be insta-good if it means I don't have to have storylines focused on her taking her lumps. This last ep was a perfect example. She has her cast and Oliver brought it up so we know she's been working with Nyssa. If they want to get her all buckled up and part of the storyline without showing me the other parts, I'm 100% good with it. 

[dtissagirl]

I'm forever grateful for the lack of training montages since Ted Grant, but I'm annoyed about the talk about the training. All it does for me is it lampshades the fact that the way they deal with the valid criticisms about Laurel is to mention them out loud on the show. I mean, the entire reason for hallucination!Sara and hallucination!Quentin in 313 is to raise all questions fandom has about Laurel. "There, we talked about it, it's solved." They're doing the exact same thing with the training.

 

I do hope that this season ends with Laurel signing up for a 5-month superhero training bootcamp somewhere, and comes back mission-ready in S4.

Edited March 30, 2015 by dancingnancy

[kismet]

I think we mentioned it before that LL needs to have some humility. I can't stand the training scenes for any of the characters. Working out is completely different story, but actual training to learn I find that boring in a show. So if they just wanna show her finishing up a train session or do the offscreen but onscreen with cast, Im good with that. But I think what would do her character the best is to have her admit that she might need training. Every time someone mentions she needs more training she gets this obnoxious face like how dare you question my skills? She needs to know her strengths and weakness, and for that she needs to show that she needs & is willing to accept help. Nobody is an automatic fighter. Even Thea's accelerated training regime/skills has been attributed to drugs.Even if you want to do something like superhero vigilantism, you need to train. Same reason I think Ray also needs to train. Masks & suits are not automatic protections. That's the one thing I did like with her new friendship with Nyssa, she actually seemed willing for once to accept help, so that is a start. But yea, I could do with more offscreen training, that miraculously translates quickly into onscreen fighting. But honestly, I find her more convincing as an attorney until noticeable improvements in her physical fighting ability.

Edited March 31, 2015 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

Nobody is an automatic fighter. Even Thea's accelerated training regime/skills has been attributed to drugs

 

I think there is some confusion.  Malcolm drugged Thea to commit the murder, not to train her. There hasn't been anything that led me to believe Malcolm used drugs to accelerate her training.  She did commit to an intensive routine that their whole lives seemed to revolve around and yet she's still no match for someone from the LoA. 

 

 

Interesting discussion in the spoiler thread. Question, do you guys think that laurel should train and be mostly competent before she galvants around town in a mask? Or do you think it's fine that even though she has little to no skills that it's okay because she can learn on the job?

 

 

 

If Laurel is going out into the field she needs more training then 2 boxing lessons. Cops, FBI, Military, CIA are all trained before going out into the field. If Laurel is going to play in the big leagues she should know how to first. We can even do sports analogies. you don't take someone that played basketball in their backyard twice by themselves and just put them in the NBA. That's essentially what they have done with Laurel and it's tarnishing the Black Canary name. 

 

 

 

^I agree. 

 

My perception is cloudy here because normally I would say yes. Train, train, train, prepare yourself up to your eyeballs. But because I don't really want to watch Laurel get that training, I don't really care if she has it. I'm willing to watch her be insta-good if it means I don't have to have storylines focused on her taking her lumps. This last ep was a perfect example. She has her cast and Oliver brought it up so we know she's been working with Nyssa. If they want to get her all buckled up and part of the storyline without showing me the other parts, I'm 100% good with it. 

I think it's two issues -

 

First, should she have been allowed to put on the mask and be taken the least bit serious (vs sent home not to try it again until she'd spent waaaay more time training)?  I think the answer to that question is clearly no, she shouldn't have been allowed to go out there full time.  She didn't meet the standards of minimum training we'd seen previously on the show so yes, she should have perhaps at the most gone out there once or twice to be some kind of symbol and then stepped back to the shadows since she needed WAY more training before I should have had to try and take her serious.  BUT...

 

Now that the deed is done, should we have to suffer through the tedium of constantly checking in on her progress or even the repetition of constantly waiting for them to mentioning her lack of skill...while still watching her succeed for the most part?  It's a tough choice. Since I can't get my first choice and have her meet the standard of the show, I at least need to keep the reminders that she's nowhere near good and I needed Nyssa's intervention because at least now Laurel has a chance of gaining credibility.    

 

But unless it is part of the plot, I don't need to see her training.

Edited March 31, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

I thought it was mentioned that malcolm had used some type of drug similar to steroids or focusing/concentration drug to help thea thru her training, especially cuz it was so vigorous? If not, I stand corrected on that point. However, I still do believe that nobody is instant fighter training needs to be done even if not shown.

[looptab]

In my opinion the issue with Laurel is execution, as always. I believe what bugs is that they're not consistent with her progress. As noted, one day she jumps off a window, the next day she can't even get out of the way when a van is about to hit her and has to be saved by Oliver.

It also makes every other character look stupid, because if she is a liability, the logic answer is that they would train her, right? Since apparently they can't tell her not to go out and face criminals with a stick. Except, she can't be trained by any member of Team Arrow, otherwise people would lose their minds and the balance of the universe would be forever out of place.

 

I think they rushed her journey, and it would have been so much better if she had started suiting up and going out next season.

This season, after Sara, they should have just showed that she was becoming restless, feeling the injustice, wanting to do good but not having the means. Start training, drop some comments about her training every now and then, and help the team in legal matters; ramp it up in the last episodes and then send her to train with Nyssa or whatever. 

[kismet]

They should have shown her getting closer to Sara in S2 and maybe starting to train w/ Sara for something (fun, justice, perhaps as means thru her darkness); so that when Sara was killed she could be not only honoring her sister but taking up the torch for her fallen teacher. It also would have avoided all the overdone Lance Drama that sucked up so much of season 2b.