Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Sakura12]

Felicity, Sara, Moira and Sin are women and they are popular with the fans. So how does hating just Laurel make someone a misogynist?

 

People have many reasons for hating Laurel and NONE of it is because she's a woman. 

[doesntworkonwood]

I'm just going to post something that I posted on tumblr a few weeks ago...

 

Disliking a female character because she’s badly written or poorly acted or has qualities that you don’t see as positive does not instantly make you a woman-hater. It does not instantly mean you’re anti-feminist, or that you’re engaging in misogyny.

As long as you don’t have double standards for characters, specifically male vs female characters, you’re just watching a show and deciding on the bits that you like or don’t like, or the bits that make sense or don’t make sense to you.

I get that you want more inclusion of women, and that you hate that there’s double standards between men and women, but surely you should be advocating for writers to write better women, to write three dimensional women, to write more consistent women, rather than labeling anyone who doesn’t like a certain female character as a misogynist, who hates women, and does not want any positive representation of women in fiction.

And, just to add, female friendships don’t have to be either ‘I hate her so much,’ or ‘OMG I love her, we’re besties.’ That’s not how women work in real life, that’s not how they should work in fiction. Just because a person doesn’t see two women being best friends, does not mean they expect them to hate each other (and are against female friendships).

 

 

I don't think that I've got double standards when it comes to Laurel. My biggest gripe with her is that she is so inconsistently written that she pretty much lacks any characterisation at all, and for the most part was used as a plot device as and when she was needed (in season 1 at least). 

 

Just as a note, I find that a lot of writers put a lot of effort into fleshing out and creating 3D male characters, over female characters. Surely if I'm not going to have double standards, I should expect that same level of effort put into my female characters, and be dissatisfied when I don't get it? 

Edited September 21, 2014 by doesntworkonwood

[dtissagirl]

Whoa. One of the reasons I hate Laurel is BECAUSE I'm a feminist, and she's clearly a construct of what white dude showrunners see as the "Strong Female Protagonist" trope. Which is problematic on its own [the idea that a good lady character has to be strong], but with specific regards to Arrow is even more so, because these EPs think "strong" means "badass and hardened", and "female" means "love interest".

Also, Black Canary is one of my favorite characters from the comic books, and I see exactly ZERO of Dinah Lance in Laurel. It was only reading the posts here that I realized they pilfered Laurel from Nolan's Rachel Dawes, and that made me realize in hindsight that I was basically duped by the showrunners.

Also also, I liked the comparison with Mike Ross from Suits, because REALLY hate Mike, and hell yes, he's basically the male Laurel. But I can see Patrick J Adams has chemistry with the other actors on Suits, and I don't get distracted by his acting choices, and the writing for him is about a hundred times more consistent. So I'm not taken out of the narrative and/on made to feel uncomfortable when I'm watching Suits like it happens in almost all scenes Laurel is in. I hate Mike from within the narrative. I hate Laurel for all external reasons.

Edited September 21, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Sakura12]

Most male writers think that a woman is either a love interest or kicks someone's ass and that's all the characterization you need. So it's up to the actress to flesh that character out and add some humanity to them. When we see Sara, yes we see a badass but we also see someone in a lot of pain. A wounded bird as Geoff Johns put it. Caity while not the greatest actress in the world is able to show us a softer, vulnerable side of Sara just with her facial expressions and body language. That is the actor bringing that to the character not the writer. 

 

KC's facial expressions and body language more often than not give off a smug, elitist attitude when it's supposed to be soft and vulnerable. Something like that changes how we see the entire scene. Her tone of voice when talking about Felicity (never actually to her mind you) sounds like someone that sees her only as the Help. I know she didn't know what she was to Oliver yet, but you still don't go around acting like you're above everyone. I remember getting mad at the way Laurel treated her mother in S1 (pre-dumb alcoholic problem). She seemed so happy that she was right about the woman in the picture not being Sara that she didn't even care when her mother ran away crying. 

 

A writer can write the lines, anyone can read those lines. But it's the actor's job to bring the meaning to those lines by the way they say them and the way they carry themselves when saying those lines.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Sakura12

[willpwr]

It's interesting that while calling people that dislike Laurel a misogynist, the writer took on the "misogynistic" view that the only reason Laurel is disliked is because people view Felicity as a more viable love interest, she stripped them both of everything else that they are and put them in that one role while acting disgusted towards others because she assumes they are doing the same as her. I might be wrong but that's the way I view it, posts like that make me glad that I mostly stay away from certain sites unless I'm looking for something specific. 

 

Mike Ross is the reason why I'm taking a break from watching Suits, I'll start again soon, though because I love that show. Arrow, unfortunately is not in the same caliber as Suits in either writing or acting so if I take a break, I might not come back and most of that would have to do with Laurel.

[wonderwall]

Mike Ross is the reason why I'm taking a break from watching Suits, I'll start again soon, though because I love that show. Arrow, unfortunately is not in the same caliber as Suits in either writing or acting so if I take a break, I might not come back and most of that would have to do with Laurel.

It's really telling how bad a character is based on ones willingness to quit a show. I mean, I definitely don't watch for Laurel by far, I've fallen in love with the other characters: Diggle, Felicity, and Oliver, but whenever the EPs go on an interview and say this is Laurel's year or whenever they say she's so fantastic KC delivers an emmy worthy performance and I don't see it, it just grates me to know that the EPs aren't seeing what we're seeing. 

 

I truly hope you stay and watch the show, I love reading your posts! Oliver+Digg+Felicity > Laurel. But as soon as they screw up that team dynamic for good, I'm out. Laurel will never be a part of the core team, she will always be an outsider to me, and the second they try to make her a core member is the second I leave. 

[icandigit]

I think Laurel's level of involvement in Team Arrow would cause me to stop watching the show. Seeing her in the arrow cave moved me from gleefully hate-watching to blind rage. I remember someone posting about the idea of a first meet in regards to romantic relationships. Laurel first intro to team arrow was horrible.

General question: a lot of posters here dislike Laurel, when did she become an issue for you?

I binge -watched the show on Netflix and Amazon this spring. I was indifferent in season one until she hooked up with Oliver the second her and Tommy broke up. I hate watched her most of season 2 because the level of bad acting was a thing to behold. And then Laurel in the arrowcave = blind rage. As a Olicity/Felicity fan I find the whole thing of equating being a fan of one and hating the other hilarious. I just don't get how Laurel sucking has anything to do with Olicity/Felicity.

[Sakura12]

Laurel's first meeting or first scene with everyone was horribly done. Her first scene with Oliver (her supposed main love interest), Sara (her sister), her introduction to Team Arrow. She made all of her first meets with other characters all about her. And she made both her parents feel like crap for no real reason. 

 

Why are we supposed to like this woman is the real question? What has she done that makes us want to root for her to do anything? What is her purpose? Becoming Black Canary because comics say so, is not a good reason. Especially not if the story they've shown so far gives her no reason to want to be a super hero. 

[quarks]

A couple of things to add to the Laurel/feminism issues:

 

If the TWOP's forums were still up, I could point to multiple posts that had issues with Laurel before the pilot even aired, concerned about Katie Cassidy, the suggested love triangle, the way the show seemed to be ripping off Nolan's Batman by making Laurel an attorney, or how an attorney could work with a vigilante. Again, all concerns voiced before the pilot. When the pilot aired, opinions about Laurel were mixed, both on TWOP and other fan sites, though again to be fair, the only characters who were immediately liked were Diggle and the housekeeper.

 

The second episode, though, was where the Laurel hate got going, and what's interesting is that at the time, it was based on two factors, one that could be interpreted as misogynistic, and one explicitly feminist:

 

The possibly misogynistic factor was the reaction to the way Laurel treated Oliver - particularly in that courtroom scene, where she made everyone around her uncomfortable so that she could say something nasty to him. Many viewers - and this is where it's possibly misogynistic - responded by implying or outright saying that she had no right to talk to Oliver that way. I tended to agree - not because Laurel didn't have that right, but because the time and place was inappropriate. Laurel was with a client, and her interactions with Oliver visibly made that client uncomfortable. At the same time, saying that a woman has no right to say something, or no right to anger - well, that often comes down to policing women's speech, or denying their anger, or forcing them to act in certain ways because, well, men; it comes up in conversations about how the perception (not necessarily reality, before people jump on me, but the perception) is that anger in a workplace can benefit a man but backfire on a woman, as it did here, as it did here with many viewers. (Including me.)

 

The explicitly feminist factor, though, was focused on later in the episode: when Laurel insisted that she didn't need police protection - only to almost immediately need to be rescued by men, doing nothing to defend herself during that entire scene. Intended or not, it was a repeat/reflection of several explicitly misogynistic movies/films that feature an uppity woman who insists that she can take of herself only to get kidnapped/beaten up and rescued by a man. (Gone With the Wind's Klu Klux Klan scene is the exemplar, but this appears in multiple other films from the 40s onwards.) That later, in that same scene, Laurel - the ex-girlfriend who should have known better - fails to question or even notice Oliver's amazing knife throwing, when the bodyguard who barely knows him does - just added to the problem. Viewers watched this scene and noted that this was a woman who couldn't defend herself, and that something she should have noted was instead noted by a man, and objected.

 

That's a pretty feminist criticism.

 

And it began the "Wow, Laurel is really useless," criticism, especially since this was the second episode where Laurel was unable to bring down her enemies or even defend herself without Oliver's help - and to have a professional, intelligent attorney treated this way didn't enthrall many viewers.  I don't think it helped that in direct contrast by the second episode the show had already given us at least two women who came across as stronger than Laurel, Moira and China White. They also were shown to have more direct agency, and as actors in their own story, not reactors.  This was all before Felicity Smoak came on the screen or was treated as a love interest.

 

For what it's worth, the viewers I've encountered in real life sometimes ship Oliver/Felicity, sometimes don't, sometimes don't care; they sometimes love Sara, sometimes don't, sometimes don't care. But they all fall into one of two categories: either they hate Laurel and want her off the show, or they hate the way Laurel has been treated on the show. Interestingly, this second group consists mostly of women who identify as feminists, who are infuriated that the show has chosen to sideline and damsel the ambitious, hardworking, professional, lawyer while elevating the party boy/party girl into the cool hero/anti-hero action roles, and are furious that Laurel gets kidnapped so often and - despite her legal training - seems clueless so often. I know three women that rage quit the show after Blind Spot when Laurel was kidnapped again, and - in their viewing - punished for doing the same thing that Oliver does, i.e., investigate and go after villains. (I would argue that Oliver has been punished for this as well - he lost his best friend at the end of the first season, and his mother and his company at the end of the second season, but as of Blind Spot it did seem to be an uneven balance.)

 

I'm not going to argue that Arrow is a feminist show.  To date, both of the women CEOs on the show have been violently killed, although more than half the men CEOs have survived (Frank and Robert, dead; Oliver, Walter, Malcolm, alive.) It doesn't help that both women CEOS were portrayed as grey or evil, while Oliver and Walter are good guys, or that the other woman in a powerful supervisory role, Amanda Waller, is not only grey at best, but keeps having men tell her to stop shooting drones at people, to the point where Diggle and Lyla freed men - but not women (sorry, Harley) to stop her. The show has fridged at least two women (and also Tommy) to generate man pain for Oliver and Slade (you can arguably add Malcolm's not seen on screen wife to that list.) In the first season, the strongest women with the most agency tended to be grey or evil (Moira, Helena, China White) until - interestingly enough - Felicity joined Team Arrow and Shado joined Team Slade and Lyla joined Team Diggle. The show greatly improved this in the second season with Sara, Sin, Nyssa, Amanda Waller and Isobel, all independent women with agency, and by turning Thea into a successful club manager - and then countered that by killing off Shado, Isobel and Moira, having men point out just how wrong Amanda is, letting Thea be manipulated by men (mostly), and having Sara's entire freaking second season journey tossed aside while Laurel smiled - even as Oliver and Slade succeeded in their journeys. (Sure, Slade ended up in jail, but not after succeeding in making Oliver's life pretty damn miserable.) I think feminists can legitimately object to any or all of this, and I'm not sure how much having Lyla save the day with a bazooka, Nyssa show up leading a pack of assassins, and Felicity turn the damsel in distress role against Slade really helps. 

 

But a large part of the reason why Arrow is not a feminist show goes back to Laurel, and how the show treats Laurel. I would also argue that a part of the "please don't make Laurel Black Canary" argument comes explicitly from a feminist perspective: viewers who do not want to see a woman who has, on screen, successfully fought for and defended women without the help of a man, replaced by a woman who, on screen, almost always has needed the help of a man to accomplish anything - winning court cases, saving her non profit agency, capturing the Hood (the SWAT team she assembles is male), realizing she's an alcoholic, and shooting a light weight compound bow. Yes, sometimes it's a woman - Sara or Kate Spencer - but usually a guy.

 

For what it's worth my two least favorite characters on the show are women - Laurel and Amanda Waller. But my favorite character?  Powerful, manipulative, ice queen Moira Queen who doesn't hesitate to kidnap her own family members when she needs to and who lies to absolutely everyone around her.  Because Moira Queen, everyone, was not about to let Malcolm Merlyn get away with his crap - well, not completely. Moira Queen kidnaps her own family members when necessary. Moira Queen betrayed Frank Chen before he could betray her again. Moira Queen contacted the League of Assassins to let them know Malcolm was alive. Moira Queen died to save her daughter's life. Moira Queen, everyone, is AWESOME.  And that, I think, is pretty damn feminist.

[statsgirl]

One of the things which bothered me about Laurel seeing Oliver for the first time and her response was Tommy was standing right there. Oliver's best friend, Tommy, who was overjoyed to see him. Laurel may have had a right to her anger, but she could have saved her response to a time when it was just her and Oliver. Instead once again it was all about how Laurel was feeling and what Laurel wanted. Instead Tommy stood witness to the reality the woman he cared for and his best friend would probably never be in the same room together. Oliver didn't know they were together, but Laurel did. Her response was all about her which is pretty much the only consistency going for her character.

 

I'd equate it to a friend marrying someone I think isn't good enough for them. I'd be happy because they are, but I'd have reservations. No need to rain on their parade. 

I hated how she treated her mother at the end of Salvation, having the woman in the photo show up just like that instead of telling Dinah that she was wrong about Sara being in the photo.  Huge levels of cruelty and wanting to stick it to her mother.

 

There was a link earlier to the difference between personality and character.  I didn't get it though.  I think state/trait is a better differentiator.  A trait is what is a part of you (like Felicity's fear of heights), a state is how you are now (jumping out of the plane to bring Oliver back). 

For Laurel, I think expecting everyone to agree with her and getting angry at them (and vengeful) is a trait.  She wanted Tommy to reject Oliver too, she wanted to punish her mother and father for hoping Sara is alive,

 

I binge -watched the show on Netflix and Amazon this spring. I was indifferent in season one until she hooked up with Oliver the second her and Tommy broke up. 

One minute she's saying she wants to fight for her relationship with Tommy, the next she's climbing Oliver like a tree.  Was she lying to herself when she said that she wanted Tommy?  In the season premier she told Oliver Tommy was the one she loved, and a few episodes later she's expecting Oliver to sleep with her.

 

She made all of her first meets with other characters all about her. And she made both her parents feel like crap for no real reason. 

 

Why are we supposed to like this woman is the real question? What has she done that makes us want to root for her to do anything? What is her purpose? Becoming Black Canary because comics say so, is not a good reason. Especially not if the story they've shown so far gives her no reason to want to be a super hero. 

Exactly.

 

I think making all of her first meets about her is also a trait.  She makes everything all about her, including giving Sara advice on how to be in a relationship with Oliver.

[icandigit]

A couple of months I tried to get my sister into Arrow. I didn't tell her anything about Laurel because I was trying to get her to actually watch the show. We were watching some courtroom scene with Laurel early season one she was already like WTF? Mind you I didn't say anything negative or reactive negatively towards Laurel. I need my sister to watch so I can talk to someone about the show. My dad watches occasionally but he only watches the Oliver shoots arrows in people car chase show. I actually envy him. But,  my sister was barely antiquated with Laurel and was turned off. I don't think she even made it to the Felicity episode. She did leave the trip addicted to Orange is the New Black so, not a total bust.

[Betweenthisandthat]

I don't think Laurel has been written perfectly, but I can't think of anything that she's done that has been worse than the other characters.  Moira, I love, but what she's done, her penchant for lies and manipulation of everyone and everything in her life is criminal and wretched.  She paid a hefty price, but because of her complicity in Merlyn's plans, hundreds of people have died.  Do people hate her character for that?  Would Laurel have gotten away with that arc?  Malcolm killed people.  He's done some horrible things, and he is a character who gets more love. 

 

There are few things in my mind that Oliver doesn't make about him.  The same day or day after he tells Tommy to basically fight for Laurel, he goes to her apartment hoping to get back with her?  What?  But it's Laurel who'se wishy washy?  Tommy dies and Oliver runs back to the island, tending to his own wounds and leaving everyone else to begin to pick up the pieces.  I don't hate him for any of this or any of the other things he's done that have bothered me, but he struggles, sometimes selfishly, with a lot of things, and I doubt Laurel as a character could get away with that.  He cheated on her several times, and she seems to get blamed because she wanted to commit?  Sara and Oliver start dating again, which would be a difficult thing for anyone in real life to deal with, but she's supposed to be okay with that?  Would anyone be able to be as close to Oliver and Sara after everything as she is now? 

 

Everyone else is allowed to be selfish and wrong but when Laurel seems to do it, that's when it becomes an issue, or so it seems to me.  Laurel is in a bad position because from the very beginning of the show, she starts off as the wronged one.  Everyone mourned Oliver and Sara's "deaths" but none of them were screwed over by them as much as Laurel was.  She has sadness and a kind of anger to deal with that no other character experienced.  What they did to her IS about her.  Everyone can try to welcome Oliver and Sara with open arms, but Laurel can't, and how could she without some inner conflict?  So that's where I see her coming from since the first episode, and to see that character be on good terms with Oliver and Sara is a sign of her capacity to forgive.  No one else really had to forgive Oliver and Sara upon their return except Laurel, and in my mind, that is one of the reasons why I think she is a target of such anomosity.  She wasn't on the island.  She isn't an assassin, but she still suffered in her own way that no other character did, but it leaves her in a difficult place as a character who seems to have not been through so much on the surface.

 

Immediately, she's coming from a "bitchy" place.  She's pissed and has been for years.  That doesn't mean she didn't love Oliver or Sara, but that was mixed with a sense up feeling betrayed because she was betrayed.  Perhaps she'd have more fans if she was instantly forgiving and didn't hold a grudge and was rooting for Oliver to kick ass from minute one, even though that seems totally unrealistic.  I get where Laurel's coming from, as a feminist, a woman, a tv viewer, or whatever label I can put on myself.

 

I like her because of her relationship with her father, how she seems to be with Oliver and Sara now.  I've always been a fan of her as a lawyer especially in the first season when she was working with the non-profit and trying to help the same people Oliver was as the Arrow but in her own, much more legal way.  Class inequality is such an important aspect of the show, and without Oliver and entirely on her own, fixing that and standing up for families who can't afford that kind of help was probably what first draw her to me.  She's just as much focused on justice as any other character on the team.  Laurel has been just as much self-sacrificing as almost every other good guy on the show.  Why am I not supposed to root for her?  Why is she not supposed to be relevant to the show?  I only wish the writers can show some more investment in her as a character who belongs on this show in season 3.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Betweenthisandthat

[icandigit]

It's not really about character making mistakes or not making mistakes.  It's about the ability for the audience to connect with the character. And often times that comes from the ability of the actor to help you connect. My sister and others I've witness were turned off before they even knew a storyline, character trait anything. And honestly that's just what happens sometimes. Things just don't work. People get miscast. Fans and the creators celebrate the chemistry between SA/EBR because it doesn't happen all the time. Its rare. Now how the show has handled this situation is their fault.It's such a waste of time for me to actually invest in Laurel when the people who create her don't take the time to.

 

Laurel's kidnapping by the Dollmaker was one of the most horrific things I'd seen on the show. If it had happened to Thea it would have moved me. I have no investment and have been given no reason to invest in Laurel so I didn't care. I could sit here and recite all of Oliver's flaws and mistakes pretty easily. With Laurel I have no idea, I don't even care enough to think about it or go find out. It's like when people forget that Laurel was actually poisioned not drunk in that one scene. Some people aren't paying her that much attention and don't care.

[statsgirl]

I think part of the problem with Laurel is that she rarely admits to her own role in what goes wrong and instead blames it on other people (Oliver, her father, Sara, etc.), unlike Moira who took responsibility for Robert's death even though all she did was encourage him to stop Malcolm Merlyn.  

 

 She blamed her father for Sara's death and both her parents for abandoning her by their divorce and she was often mean to them to take revenge, as if she was the only one who suffered.   Laurel did eventually acknowledge that she had a role in Tommy's death after blaming the Hood for months for not saving him.

 

Oliver has apologized so many times for taking Sara on the boat, and in The Undertaking, he told Laurel that they should have talked to each other five years earlier.   I'd really like to see a scene between Oliver and Laurel where they both admit to mistakes, where Laurel acknowledges that she and Oliver never really knew each other in the past, that they were in love with fantasy images of each other, and that she pushed Oliver too hard and ignored all the signs that he was cheating on her, including Sara's outright statement.  (Laurel responded "Why can't you be happy for me?". No wonder it pushed Sara onto the boat with Oliver.)  That would go a ways to redeeming Laurel for me.

 

 

No one else really had to forgive Oliver and Sara upon their return except Laurel

I only know of a few people in real life, a lucky few, who haven't been cheated on at one time or another.  You suck it up, decide to learn from it, and go on.  On the show, Moira got cheated on regularly.  Thea thinks Roy cheated on her too.

 

Oliver apologized to Laurel, a number of times.  Many of us don't get even that.  So while I acknowledge that to have your boyfriend cheat on you with your sister is an awful thing to have happen to you at the time, I can't with Laurel still being so angry about it especially given that she got on with her own life just fine.  What it does is contribute to the general impression of immaturity I have about Laurel.

Edited September 21, 2014 by statsgirl

[Nanrad]

Betweenthisandthat, people's perception and reactions to characters are more complicated than right and wrong--it's about authenticity, believability, being relatable, (acting), etc. It's about being told one thing and seeing another, it's about the writers doing everything to make Laurel "likable" (including how she does nothing wrong and/or isn't called out for it) to get fans to like her, rather than, putting actual care and consideration into Laurel's character, which did not happen. 

 

Moira wasn't created in order to be likable, she was created to be complex and grey and allowed to stand on her own as a character, which is why some people love her. Laurel actions either serves to help the plot of the week, are contradictory to what the writers want us to believe, and it's clear the writers are trying to make us like her. There are many other things that is wrong with her as well.

 

Oliver does many crappy things, but this isn't about him--it's about Laurel. Oliver can still be that person and it wouldn't subtract from people's dislike of her. They can both be unlikeable. At the same time, Oliver isn't shown in the same positive light as Laurel is both pre and post island. And he is also called out on bad behavior, which Laurel really isn't minus the addiction arc. Oliver wasn't being wishy washy to tell Tommy to pursue Laurel, and then had sex with her--we already knew that Oliver still had those feelings, but tried to fight to stay away. Either way, what he did was crappy, but that's not wishy washy. Wishy washy is saying that Oliver doesn't care about others deep down, and then saying that she knows Oliver like she knows her own name (that's mostly contradictory though, but there are some legit examples other people can provide). I think posters on here admitted that they would let Laurel get away with some stuff if they liked her, but they don't.

 

Laurel doesn't get blamed for wanting to commit and why Oliver cheated (he cheated way before then most likely), she is given the side eye for ignoring her sister's warning as well as getting upset with Sara. Laurel is supposed to be smart, responsible, observant, Oliver's good friend, and knows him the best, but can't seem to believe that Oliver cheated on her or, at least, give reasons why she think he didn't besides the plans she made for them. Laurel wasn't supposed to be okay with Sara and Oliver dating, she just wasn't supposed to act like a child. 

 

And that's the problem: we are supposed to as a wronged person rather than a person who wronged. This is supposed to make her an immediately sympathetic character who we root for. You don't think Moira had it worse than Laurel--I'm not really trying to compare grief, but she lost a husband, a son, and other innocent people on the boat as a part of a deal or whatever. She was left as a single parent and wouldn't leave her room for months. Yet, she moved on with her life and wasn't defined by what had happened. By framing Laurel as a victim, that makes people less likely to want to root for her. The anger and sadness that Laurel has to deal with is something that needs to be addressed with within herself. When you forgive someone, it's not only for them, it's for yourself. Laurel's grief isn't special, it's just different. Laurel is a target because of her victim status and making everything about her. Even though the affair was about her, when Sara and Oliver came back, they had been through too much for Laurel to even think it was an appropriate feeling to act upon. Being a good person is recognizing that sometimes you have to put your feelings aside no matter how much it hurts to tend to a greater issue. 

 

Answer me this: what if they didn't come back alive? What then? 

 

That's why forgiveness comes from within. Laurel didn't have to immediately forgive, but her reactions are largely selfish because she only thinks about herself. What they did was flat out wrong, but I don't think seeing them again for the first time in 5/6 years after she believed they had died was the right reaction at that moment. That is where she lost some people. As a feminist, as a person, a woman, I DON'T get where Laurel is coming from. It wasn't about her rooting for Oliver, Laurel gained detractors in part because of inconsistency as well. 

[scarynikki12]

For me it all comes down to if the show is presenting the character in the same way the audience is perceiving that character.  The show wants us to see Laurel as a compassionate, passionate, stubborn, lawyer always fighting for those who can't fight for themselves and who knows what she wants from life and knows Oliver so well she can influence his actions.  I'd actually say that some of that has been successfully shown.  I do think Laurel is stubborn, generally knows what she wants for her life, and is happy to use the law to help the less fortunate.  When it's impersonal, I think she does show these qualities.  When it comes to personal relationships, though, I believe she falls short.  That doesn't bother me in the slightest, as that dichotomy makes for interesting characterization and opens up story potential. The problem is that we are supposed to see her this way in her personal life even when it doesn't make sense and often results in character inconsistencies. 

 

I do agree with you that Laurel probably did feel very lonely during those missing years, she does deserve a genuine apology from both Oliver and Sara, and she felt that she couldn't give into her anger due to their deaths and doesn't know how to handle it now that they're back.  The difference is that I don't believe that Laurel's loneliness was adequately presented to us.  It's one thing for us to objectively understand that anyone in her situation would feel so angry and sad at their betrayal that she bottled it up inside and it's been eating at her ever since.  It's another to actually show it.  I don't believe that the writing has done enough to show this and the miscasting of Cassidy resulted in her portrayal failing to add the necessary expressions and body language to make up for the writing failures.  Her anger coming to the surface now that both are alive has also been inconsistent.  I have no issue with Laurel snapping at Oliver and Sara when they first return, telling them she wants nothing to do with them, and letting loose and screaming that Sara stole her life.  When we get angry, really angry, in real life so many of us will give into irrational impulses as part of the venting process.  It's only when that anger has been completely released, and perspective returns, that we can recognize that, no, we didn't mean even half the things we said but were trying to be as hurtful to the other person(s) as they were to us.  What bothered me was that the scripts did an abrupt change, often in the same episode.  No one gets over true anger that quickly, especially if it's been festering for five or six years.  I think the best thing that could have happened to the character of Laurel would have been for her to stay angry with Oliver.  That first season, let her anger be ever present when they share scenes and she's only civil for Tommy's sake.  In the second, she chooses to start letting it go to honor Tommy's memory.  Then Sara returns, all the anger and hurt that she caused comes rushing to the surface and she decides that she's not going to let Oliver off the hook after all.  I think that it's best that Laurel eventually let her anger go but it needed to be long term and clearly be for her sake only.  Having her let her anger to Oliver and Sara go one episode after learning they're alive doesn't do her character, or the story, justice.

 

If I may make a comparison, look at Elena, Damon, and Stefan on The Vampire Diaries.  That show has always had issues with how those three characters are being presented versus how they're coming across.  It was honest with Damon in the first season, making clear that he was a violent, unrepentant, serial killer who loved nothing more than victimizing humans, women in particular.  Then the showrunner changed and the triangle from the books became the primary focus and Damon, whose behavior never changed and who has never apologized to the few victims who are still around, was now supposed be seen as redeemed because that's the direction the show wanted to go with his character.  Then there's Elena.  From the beginning, the audience was supposed to see her as filled with Compassion, the character who is able to relate to anyone so well that she can feel sorry for vampires.  Instead, it came across as Elena only cared about the vampires (male ones at that) and didn't give a damn about their human victims, even when those victims were life long schoolmates, her BFF, her brother, and even herself.  This was consistent until last year when the showrunner changed again.  All of a sudden, the show was being honest about who Elena really was this whole time.  Other characters called her out when she prioritized male vampires (Damon in this case), she didn't need to be the center of every story going on, none of her friends even noticed when she was possessed by another vampire known for being cruel and selfish, and the only reason they realized it is because a third party let it slip to one of the humans who then texted his friend.  There's also Stefan who, like Elena, has been presented by the show as a Good Person, who feels for the humans, who only drinks animal blood, and who feels overwhelming remorse for the kills he'd made when he first became a vampire.  What we've seen, on the other hand, is a character who doesn't have a problem with humans being targeted and victimized when other vampires do it, who doesn't actually do anything to make amends to those he's hurt, and who only seems to care that his reputation remains in tact rather than making steps to fix the problems. 

 

It's all about perception.  On TVD, I still hate Damon deeply, I would be willing to love Stefan if the show ever got honest about him, and I flat out adore Elena now that the show has been honest about who she really is.  Another poster mentioned Gossip Girl and Serena Van Der Woodsen.  I hate the same reaction to her.  I didn't like the show version very much because she was so often presented as a Good Person even though she didn't think before she acted and ended up hurting people more often than not (though I find Blake Lively delightful).  I enjoyed the book version far more, bad writing aside, because it was made very clear that Serena didn't really care about anyone but herself and Blair and that all she wanted to do was party, shop, and be the center of attention.  The book was honest about Serena while the show was not, so I had issues with the character.  Interestingly, it was Katie Cassidy's Juliet that made me enjoy Serena in GG season 4.  The two played off one another very well and I wish Juliet could have been kept as a regular antagonist for the rest of the series run.

 

So perception plays a big role.  Moira was honestly presented to us and that let us perceive her the way she was intended.  The same was true for Thea, Quinten, Tommy, Diggle and Walter from the pilot.  I think Oliver was honestly presented to us from the start but not everyone feels that way so I left him off that short list.  If the show became honest about how Laurel's been presented, rather than try and convince us that we're watching wrong and that more Laurel will change out minds, then I guarantee that there would be more positive reactions to the character. 

 

Ultimately it is very complicated when it comes to reactions to characters and there are always a lot of different factors but I do believe that perception, writing, and acting are the three big ones.  Unfortunately, all three failed the character of Laurel in the eyes of so many of the audience.

[apinknightmare]

Hi, Betweenthisandthat. I don't think I've seen you post here before, so welcome!

 

You are absolutely right that Laurel as she is now couldn't have gotten away with being a part of something like The Undertaking. The thing of it is, the writers on this show gave Moira, who was morally grey and not a nice person, good motivation that drove her, so even though I don't condone her behavior, I understand why she did what she did. I didn't necessarily root for her, but I was actually invested in her story. Moira was shady as hell, but she loved her family and would do (and did) anything for them. I understood her.

 

The problem with Laurel is that at any given time I don't know what in the hell is going on with her. Yeah, she fights for justice, but she's not particularly good at it. And that would be fine if that were part of her character, but that's never really acknowledged in the show (and I don't expect that it will be next season

considering she's supposed to be the DA

. So, we see either see her failing, or we see her succeeding with Arrow's help, and she reaps benefits from that.

 

So then we have Oliver and Sara. Past Oliver and Sara? Absolute dicks. What they did is 100% on them - if Laurel was being too pushy for commitment, then it's on Oliver to tell her that, not take her sister on a boat and/or cheat repeatedly. I don't blame Laurel for any of that and she is absolutely right to be both devastated and angry about what they did to her. I thought she was head-over-heels in love with Oliver, and just kind of naive because of it. But come to find out, she knew he was cheating on her and still wanted to be with him. Still pushed for them moving in together. So...why? The flashback of her and Sara talking about it made it seem like she was in that relationship for the status, which is fine. That actually could've been an interesting facet to her character, but the writers never did anything with it. So...it's not really so much that she loved him in the past, it's that she loved what being with him could do for her (which, again, I think could've made her more interesting, if the writers had explored that). It's great that she's forgiving him in the present, but why is she doing that? Why does she want anything to do with Oliver at all? Is it just for the sake of forgiving him so that she can be a good person?

 

Her anger at Sara, I get. Laurel should feel more betrayed by Sara, and yet she didn't spend even remotely as long being angry at her as she did at Oliver. Not only did SHE apologize to SARA, but she did it on the same night as her outburst! And then the next episode she's giving Sara and Oliver relationship advice? Wha-what?

 

Laurel and Oliver, as far as we know, are barely talking to each other. But when she finds out that Oliver is the Arrow, she goes right to him and tells him he's important to her, and gives him a hug. Doesn't say jack to her sister, though. They leave that off-screen for whatever reason. So, now they've made it seem like Laurel's only interested in Oliver because he's the Arrow, which makes her seem superficial, which is not at all what I think was intended by that. She doesn't know what Oliver went through on the island, doesn't know why he took up the hood, doesn't really even know anything about him since he came back to the island (arguably didn't really know him all that well before the island), but she knows him down to her bones? Knows him like she knows her own name? Okay. Then at the end of the season, she's smiling like a lunatic when her sister hands her a jacket and then runs off to be an assassin again.

 

She has moments of being a do-gooder, then she's blackmailing people. She can kick ass when it's needed as a plot device, but she's kidnapped more than anyone. Which is it? Now she's going to try to follow in Sara's footsteps? Why? Just because she's "Dinah Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world," I guess. That's the problem (for me) with Laurel. What they're telling me and what they're showing me are two different things, and they change based on whatever the writers are trying to sell me at the time because whatever previous thing didn't work. I don't care if she's selfish - let her BE selfish. I don't care if she's angry - let her BE angry. If she wants to be an ass-kicker like Sara, SHOW ME WHY. I don't need her to go through her own island - she's suffered in her own way. What I need to know is why she's compelled to do it, and they so far have not shown me that, and I don't have faith that they will. Laurel's character needs some nuance and consistency. Maybe they can give her that in S3, but I'm past the point of caring now.

Edited September 22, 2014 by apinknightmare

[quarks]

Sara and Oliver start dating again, which would be a difficult thing for anyone in real life to deal with, but she's supposed to be okay with that?

 

 

I would say no, but on the show, she ended up being ok with it by the end of one episode, and offering them dating advice a couple of episodes later. 

 

This one continues to baffle me. 

[Sakura12]

If they let Laurel own being a smug bitch, I probably would've loved her character. I would've liked to see her dressing down Oliver and the bad guys she was trying to put away as a Lawyer. But we got was Laurel acting like a smug bitch while we were supposed to see her as the nice, caring good-doer. Her facial expressions, tone of voice and body language never matched what I was supposed to be seeing.

 

She's supposed to be upset and scared but her face barely moved so I didn't see the emotion behind it, she's supposed to be drunk and she acted the exact same way she does when she's sober. How am I supposed to know she has real problem with that? She's supposed to be angry that Sara stole her boyfriend 6 Years ago and just came back from the dead, fine she had right to be but all I saw was someone angry that everyone was paying attention to Sara and not her. 

 

KC is not letting me see Laurel as a person and that is her job not the writers. They have paper, she's supposed to bring their vision to life. Acting is one the most important parts of making a show enjoyable. Take Orphan Black for example, that show would not be nearly as popular it if wasn't for the awe inspiring talent of Tatiana Maslany.  She makes that show what it is. She makes a show that no one cares that it doesn't make any sense a show that people will watch. We also have Outlander a show that managed to make a love scene, awkward, humorous, intimate and sensual all the same time because of the two actors involved in that scene.

 

With that said none of the actors on this show are near Tatiana Maslany league but they managed to make me care about their character, root for their character whether it's doing good things or bad things and want them to succeed or fail depending on what is they are doing. I should be angry when they do something OOC because the writers needed a plot. With Laurel I don't even know when she acts out of character since I don't even see her as a character in the first place. 

[Nanrad]

Sakura, current actors? I don't know if I'll agree about Susannah.

[Sakura12]

I meant with the main characters mostly. However she's miles above the younger cast but I haven't seen Susannah in anything else to compare her too. Actors should be able to play multiple characters but being able to play multiple characters in the same show where you forget they are the same actor is something else in my book. If I see Susannah Thompson in other roles maybe I'll change my mind but as of now, no she's not Tatiana Maslany.

 

I need to see an actor play more than one role so I know that they are not just good playing that role. Like Eliza Dushku, she is Faith in my book but that's the only character she can play well. It seems it's that way with KC, she does well playing a bitch but can't do anything else. Which is why all her characters come across very similar and it only works if it's supposed to be that way. 

Edited September 22, 2014 by Sakura12

[Nanrad]

I think TM warrants all the praise she gets, but despite knowing the difficulty of playing multiple characters in a believing manner, it's hard for me to put actors/actresses above those who don't have roles like that if I think they are already good. Actors playing multiple characters in a movie/TV series isn't common. But, you are entitled to your opinion. It's just hard for me to do the same. 

[Sakura12]

I'm not saying they need to play multiple characters in one show. I need to see them play a different character than just one. I've only seen ST with her role as Moira Queen. I need to see more roles to make a call on her acting ability. I gave examples of seeing other actors do well one particular role like KC with playing bitchy women. I need to see an actor play a completely different role to show me they can act. As I said if I see ST in another role and she blows me away maybe I'll change my mind. But as of right now TM is the actor I'm comparing all tv actors with. 

[Nanrad]

Oh, I misunderstood, my bad. I just know I've seen others use that as a justification for ranking someone higher.

[wonderwall]

I was reading a post on tumblr about Laurel and this description came up:

 

Sara snuck out to a secret party at Tommy’s house because she knew Oliver would be there and had a crush on him (that Laurel knew about).  Laurel called the cops on the party and got Sara grounded. By the time Sara wasn’t grounded anymore, Laurel & Oliver had begun dating.

And it just makes me hate Laurel so much. These two sentences basically show that Laurel's always been a selfish, unsupportive, self-centered, jealous, vindictive asshole. I wonder how Sara must've felt after Laurel started dating Oliver. She must've really hated Laurel for doing that to her. And to think that Laurel never apologized for her actions it just rubs me the wrong way for some reason...

[scarynikki12]

I have to admit that reveal by Sara didn't bother me a bit.  It definitely made Laurel feel more real and relatable, especially since it was a rare scene where the show was intentionally presenting Laurel in a negative light.  What ultimately kept it from bothering me, though, was the knowledge that Sara being grounded wouldn't have stopped Oliver from dating her if he truly wanted to and it wouldn't have made Laurel more attractive for him if he didn't find her such already.  Oliver was very much an asshole in how he conducted himself and treated others but he never seemed like the type of guy who had to be manipulated into wanting to sleep with someone.  I think he was really attracted to Laurel back then, but had to put time in and be in a relationship with her in order to sleep with her.  I could never buy Laurel Lance willingly becoming another notch on Oliver Queen's bedpost.  No way.  If he wanted to sleep with her, then he needed to take her out on actual dates and be in an actual relationship before that would happen.  Then, once they were in a relationship, I can buy that Oliver liked it on some level, especially once he realized that he could cheat on her and she'd look the other way, and that's why he didn't dump her after they first slept together.  Since he didn't even remember Sara being at that party, I don't think her grounding made any difference, unless the show was insinuating that Oliver would have entered a relationship with Sara in order to sleep with her like he likely did with Laurel.  It's not the best moment for Laurel, but it's one of her more honest ones so I have no issue with it.  I will say, if the show does have her apologize for it at any point in the series (assuming the character even remembers it as I bet it left her memory almost as soon as it happened and that kind of thing stays with the Saras longer than the Laurels), I'm going to get very worried for Sara's safety.  That kind of scene would scream of the show putting all of Sara's affairs in order, including full reconciliation with Laurel, before killing her off.  I'd just as soon as keep that bit of information as part of Sara's memory surrounding the beginning of Oliver's and Laurel's relationship before the shipwreck.

[wonderwall]

I have to admit that reveal by Sara didn't bother me a bit.  It definitely made Laurel feel more real and relatable, especially since it was a rare scene where the show was intentionally presenting Laurel in a negative light.  What ultimately kept it from bothering me, though, was the knowledge that Sara being grounded wouldn't have stopped Oliver from dating her if he truly wanted to and it wouldn't have made Laurel more attractive for him if he didn't find her such already.  Oliver was very much an asshole in how he conducted himself and treated others but he never seemed like the type of guy who had to be manipulated into wanting to sleep with someone.  I think he was really attracted to Laurel back then, but had to put time in and be in a relationship with her in order to sleep with her.  I could never buy Laurel Lance willingly becoming another notch on Oliver Queen's bedpost.  No way.  If he wanted to sleep with her, then he needed to take her out on actual dates and be in an actual relationship before that would happen.  Then, once they were in a relationship, I can buy that Oliver liked it on some level, especially once he realized that he could cheat on her and she'd look the other way, and that's why he didn't dump her after they first slept together.  Since he didn't even remember Sara being at that party, I don't think her grounding made any difference, unless the show was insinuating that Oliver would have entered a relationship with Sara in order to sleep with her like he likely did with Laurel.  It's not the best moment for Laurel, but it's one of her more honest ones so I have no issue with it.  I will say, if the show does have her apologize for it at any point in the series (assuming the character even remembers it as I bet it left her memory almost as soon as it happened and that kind of thing stays with the Saras longer than the Laurels), I'm going to get very worried for Sara's safety.  That kind of scene would scream of the show putting all of Sara's affairs in order, including full reconciliation with Laurel, before killing her off.  I'd just as soon as keep that bit of information as part of Sara's memory surrounding the beginning of Oliver's and Laurel's relationship before the shipwreck.

IDK, my being upset about that scene had more to do with how Laurel treated Sara regardless of how Oliver felt. That moment just rubbed me the wrong way because do sisters really do that in real life? I would've much preferred it if Laurel was honest with Sara about Oliver not liking Sara or whatever. Based on your post I assume you think Laurel knew that Oliver liked Laurel? Because if Laurel didn't know (which I'm kind of sure she didn't) and she did it for her own gain then that's a pretty shitty thing to do to a sister. 

[scarynikki12]

It came across as Sara thinking that Laurel knew that she liked him and Sara believing that was why Laurel got her grounded, to use that time to get her hooks into him.

[dtissagirl]

I honestly think this was another miscalculation from the writers, which only highlights the fact that they don't know what to do with Laurel, and how badly they are at writing women in relation to one another.

Both Sara telling Oliver about Laurel getting her grounded, and the flashback with Sara asking Laurel about the rumors Oliver had been fooling aroud with a bunch of girls were an attempt to justify/explain why Sara went on the Gambit with Oliver. I think they were going for a ~it's complicated~ vibe there, but whatever the intention, the execution fell apart because Sara already had enough vulnerability, and likeability -- and it was clear she felt guilty, and had suffered A LOT -- when we meet her in present time Starling.

So the whole thing looked to me as if the EPs thought they had to redeem Sara in the flashbacks AS WELL, which wasn't necessary. [And this was a huge problem with almost all flashbacks in S2: they seldom taught us anything new. They were either retconning crap, or overexplaining stuff that audiences had already inferred from the present time narrative.] And, surprise: the unpredicted result was that it just ended up making people reject Laurel even more. She came off petty for wanting to steal the guy her sister had a crush on, and blind and stupid for dismissing Sara's concern that Laurel wanted to move in with a cheater.

For me, in particular, it only aggravated the cognitive dissonance I feel from what the EPs intend to show for Laurel [good-doer, victim], and what I actively see on screen as end result [entitled, self-righteous].

[writersblock51]

General question: a lot of posters here dislike Laurel, when did she become an issue for you?

 

I'm asking because I asked someone to acknowledge that it is possible to have valid reasons for not liking a female character (she loves Laurel) that has nothing to do with hating woman (she said all reasons were misogynistic). I was then called an anti-femist who needs to take a good hard look at my life choices and what I believe, because if Laurel was a man I would love him (she compared how broken Laurel was to characters like Sherlock). And because my dislike must have started when an love interest (Felicity) came into play.

 

I'm so angry I could punch someone.

 

I think Season 2 has brought up a lot of misconceptions and assumptions about what liking or disliking Laurel means.  Tumblr is, as some have noted here, a hotbed of overreaction, shaming and bashing, too.

 

I came into the pilot episode prepared to like Laurel because (1) she was one of the main characters on a show that I was looking forward to watching and (2) I'd read that she was to become Black Canary.  As a fan of the Green Arrow comics, I was all in. 

 

Then the pilot aired - I was underwhelmed by Laurel to a degree but not turned off.  I totally understood her anger at Oliver - bought the reasons why, 100%.  Overall, I thought she played angry, hurt & betrayed alright but there was stuff missing.  As in - why didn't she ask about Sara's last moments?  If my sister had died under those circumstances, I would have (angrily, I'm sure) asked that - did she suffer? was she alone? did you do everything you could to save her?   But NOTHING.  So while I didn't think Laurel's reaction in the pilot was badly done or anything, I just felt there was some dialogue missing.  This was on the writers, not KC.

 

As the season progressed, I liked Laurel's reluctance to forgive Oliver and it made sense to me.  I liked her and Tommy's 'should we tell him?' debate and their obvious (to me, at least) affection for each other.  I thought her job was well intended.  I was more interested in Oliver's transition back to present day than watching Laurel work, though - and that had nothing to do with the character or actress.

 

But then the waffling between Oliver and Tommy began, when Tommy was clearly trying to show her how much he cared and - most importantly, I think - respected her.  Oliver may have loved her in some fashion but he did not respect her, not pre-island and not in present day.  He lied to her constantly.  He lied to everyone but it was jarring to see how much he didn't want to tell her the truth.  Which, to me, was a HUGE retcon in S2 when they talked in the lair - he never intended to tell her, so his speech in S2 was full of BS.

 

Laurel's treatment of her father bugged me but was, to some extent, understandable.  Being the child of an alcoholic, even a grown child, is tough and packs a lot of issues.  However, her treatment of her mother really bugged me - as did the "Surprise, Dad! Mom's here!" moment with Quentin.  I don't doubt Laurel loves her parents but she's treated them pretty shittily for much of 2 seasons, now.

 

But Season 1 all comes down to 2 key points for me when it comes to my dislike of Laurel by the time the finale finished airing:

- flipping between Tommy & Oliver.  She's not the only one I disliked about that, Oliver comes off even worse to me

- not listening to ANYONE about staying out of the Glades the night of the 'earthquake' - for the reason that I dislike people who stay in risky areas during a natural disaster, even after official warnings to evacuate, and putting rescue personnel in grave danger... this really bugged me as it was happening.  Then when Tommy died, good heavens

 

Season 2... I was already annoyed with Laurel and wished she had died instead of Tommy.  So Season 2 wasn't going to start on a high note in regards to Laurel.  Season 2, Ep 1 just confirmed what I was feeling - she was still blaming everyone else but herself.  I get now why she did that but it didn't help endear me to her at all.  Then the Dollmaker episode brought her some clarity and her and Quentin closer.  That was fine but by then, Sara in full blown BC garb & skills had shown up.

 

So now we have a BC who is NOT Laurel.  And I'm still pretty much in the Ugh, Laurel line of thinking. 

 

The legal stuff regarding her career just made my eyes roll to the back of my head, but by now I've gotten used to legal stuff being utter nonsense on TV, so I just went with it and hoped it wouldn't prove too much of a distraction (sadly, it did with Moira's trial).

 

But the addiction storyline, and to a large degree, how KC played it, cemented not only my strong dislike of Laurel but also my fervent hope that she NEVER become BC.  There was NOTHING in her journey, even after she started getting clean, to explain why she'd want to become a vigilante or how she'd ever surpass Sara as Black Canary, specificially.

 

I can understand that the show may not have wanted to write an accurate, gripping addiction story - it takes time to do it right, for one thing, and it takes a strong actor to be able to do it convincingly.  Arrow rushed it with an actor who couldn't "play drunk" well.  We barely saw her spiral or her reasoning for it. 

 

Then the EPs started touting her performance, the terms "island" and "crucible" were uttered in interviews.  And my disgust, and disappointment, was very high. 

 

Bottom line: I wanted to like Laurel and I was very much looking forward to her becoming Black Canary.  However, what may have been proposed did not pan out in any way on screen.  My dislike didn't happen right away but it did happen fairly early in Season 1.  

 

Now I'm one of those people who will give up on the show if she becomes Black Canary.  I can't fathom any way that the writing and acting will be able to convince me that this is a better version than Sara's.

[kdm07]

I'm new here but I just wanted to add my view on Laurel. I started watching Arrow over the summer after a rec by a friend. He didn't say much about the characters but he told me to see out Season 1 (ha!) because Season 2 would be worth it.

 

By the time I had finished the two seasons, my friend asked me what I thought about the characters and I told him, quite frankly, the only one I can't stand is Laurel. Something about her, whether it be the writing or the acting, just doesn't sit well with me so I'm a little freaked out by the news that she might end up being the Black Canary (according to my friend) because I just don't see how the writers or the actress will be able to carry the character at all. The character feels weak and not grounded to me and I don't know if that's a writing choice or not because if it is, they need to change it asap.

 

My two cents.

Edited September 22, 2014 by kdm07

[Nanrad]

Laurel calling the police of Sara bothered me because that's just something you don't do to siblings--I mean, what was her justification? Was she trying to protect her or was it because of Oliver? I'm inclined to believe Sara's story not because I dislike Laurel, but rather, Laurel never defended herself against the accusation. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm quick to clear up any confusion or misplaced blame, but Laurel didn't if that wasn't the case. 

 

As Wonderwall said, it's not about how Oliver felt, but rather, how Laurel treated her sister either way. Sure, we can say that action humanized Laurel, but it's still extra grimy either way. IMHO, I think Oliver may have had a thing for Sara even if it was just sexual. Somehow her and Oliver missed each other at the party, and then cops came. Laurel used the time while her sister was on punishment to make a move on Oliver because the competition had been neutralized. I really don't think Oliver dating Laurel screams that he liked her more. I think he may have liked her confidence in him and how she made him feel or just the fact that she liked him in the first place. The way he treated her back then makes it hard to believe for me that he honestly liked her.

[Nanrad]

This is another thing that bothers me, which I mentioned a while back: Laurel, Oliver, and Tommy were all supposed to be childhood (best) friends. Why doesn't/didn't Laurel ever act like it? That was another thing that made me feel disconnected from her. She only acted and was treated like the ex girlfriend. Then, when plot of the week needed it, suddenly, she was the former friend who knew Oliver well. Laurel would've been better received by if she did behave in some way that an ex who had also been a friend behavior, such as displaying knowing a close friend would know, being confused as to why a close friend/boyfriend would do that to her, etc. For Laurel, it's the little things (as well as the big thing). 

 

Even when you look at Tommy, he was supposed to be her friend too. I only remember this criticism when someone else brought up that Laurel should've waited to confront Oliver because his friend was happy to see him and that she should've been mindful of that. Laurel was Tommy's friend too. And, I don't know, but if you are close friends with these guys, you know how they act. Laurel was far too judgmental as well as behaving like she had only heard of their behavior from others rather than seeing herself or hearing about it through them. So, her behavior with Tommy was off-putting for me. 

[JJ928]

I don't hate Laurel, I just don't care about her. She adds nothing to the narrative to me. However, there was one instance in season 2 where the character just failed for me. In episode 19 when she's putting together her Oliver/Arrow board, and she goes to the hospital to see Sara (at this point we know she had put two and two together), and she walks in to see her changing - sees her scars. She didn't react.

 

I was waiting for a reaction, for her to be horrified. I kept thinking if that were my sister I would have been in tears, because she knew Oliver was tortured in season 1 and seemed genuinely upset for him. I got nothing for her own sister. I don't know if it was the writing, or if the actress failed to deliver suitable emotion for me, but I was left totally annoyed. Sara was no angel, and though I love her, she's done a lot of terrible crap. Still, I thought that would be their moment, that would be where Laurel finally really allowed herself to let go of the past and forgive her, because I still don't feel like she really has. I know the EP's told us she has, but I don't feel like that was properly portrayed on the show. 

Edited September 22, 2014 by JJ928

[tv echo]

Before Arrow debuted, I was looking forward to the Laurel character (among other things).  After watching the pilot episode, I was disappointed at how Laurel was portrayed and her lack of chemistry with Oliver.  As Season 1 progressed, I got more turned off Laurel.  Watching her and Oliver interact was not fun and one of the reasons I almost stopped watching Arrow during Season 1.  I wanted to like her but just couldn't.

Edited September 22, 2014 by tv echo

[blixie]

 

Both Sara telling Oliver about Laurel getting her grounded, and the flashback with Sara asking Laurel about the rumors Oliver had been fooling aroud with a bunch of girls were an attempt to justify/explain why Sara went on the Gambit with Oliver. I think they were going for a ~it's complicated~ vibe there, but whatever the intention, the execution fell apart because Sara already had enough vulnerability, and likeability -- and it was clear she felt guilty, and had suffered A LOT -- when we meet her in present time Starling.

 

Yup, this was a huge WTF, and so unnecessary. I think it really speaks to everything that's wrong with the writers. They say one thing about Laurel, and do something else entirely on screen. Telling us to love Laurel, but expending all their energy making us like SARA. Again Sara was the female lead in S2, I really can't see it any other way, and I can't see how that aids in some overarching "plan" to make Laurel rootable as BC. It's self-defeating in the extreme and that bit of writing undermined a character in Laurel, that was already pretty vilified. It's like Bizarro verse in the writers head between what they think they want to do and what they actually end up doing.

 

 

So while I didn't think Laurel's reaction in the pilot was badly done or anything, I just felt there was some dialogue missing.  This was on the writers, not KC.

 

Exactly that was only one of many many many missed opportunities to give us insight into Laurel via some fucking WRITING. Of course KC could play the role better, she could make her less bitchy and more vulnerable, but then IMO she'd just be Thea who I mostly didn't give a shit about until the moment she shot Malcolm. KC could at best be an inoffensive CYPHER. 

[writersblock51]

I don't hate Laurel, I just don't care about her. She adds nothing to the narrative to me. However, there was one instance in season 2 where the character just failed for me. In episode 19 when she's putting together her Oliver/Arrow board, and she goes to the hospital to see Sara (at this point we know she had put two and two together), and she walks in to see her changing - sees her scars. She didn't react.

 

I was waiting for a reaction, for her to be horrified. I kept thinking if that were my sister I would have been in tears, because she knew Oliver was tortured in season 1 and seemed genuinely upset for him. I got nothing for her own sister. I don't know if it was the writing, or if the actress failed to deliver suitable emotion for me, but I was left totally annoyed. Sara was no angel, and though I love her, she's done a lot of terrible crap. Still, I thought that would be their moment, that would be where Laurel finally really allowed herself to let go of the past and forgive her, because I still don't feel like she really has. I know the EP's told us she has, but I don't feel like that was properly portrayed on the show. 

 

I'd forgotten this scene - you're absolutely right, there was a big chance for a reaction that wasn't there.  And that seems to be a pattern with Laurel - missing chunks.  I don't know why - are these types of scenes simply not written? (and if that's the case, why not?)  Or were they written but not filmed?  Or were they filmed and deleted?  I don't recall seeing them in any deleted scenes on the DVDs for either season.

 

This flies in the face, I think, of the EPs professed 'love' for Laurel (and, possibly, KC) - there are a lot of wasted opportunities for her across 2 seasons.  Maybe such scenes were intended at some point, and the EPs who rave about her know about them.  But the audience hasn't seen them, so we have no idea what they're talking about.

 

The discussion about when Laurel and Sara were teens - and Laurel called the cops to get Sara in trouble.  My sister and I had a very rocky relationship when we were teens, seriously but that was nothing we ever would have done to each other.  I know of circumstances where kids (but not siblings) tried to get other kids in trouble, so it happens.  Siblings?  That's just messed up. 

 

There's no secret that pre-island Oliver was an immature, cheating, lying, disrespectful and spoiled brat.  How and why Laurel stayed with him has been speculated to a large extent but the show has never actually showed us.  At this point, I don't need to see it especially if they will never be hooking up again.  But it may have helped Laurel's characterization if we'd seen a bit more of her emotional needs vs her logical reasoning (she must have, on some level, known that he was cheating) when she was younger OR have her talk about it with someone (Quentin, Tommy, Dinah, Sara). 

 

If Oliver's son ever shows up, perhaps that include be a brief conversation between Laurel and Oliver - she realizes now that she never actually knew him then, that she is smarter now about what kind of person deserves to be with her, etc etc etc.  One scene that could go a long way in establishing a long needed truth, on her part, about who they both were all those years ago.  And to forgive each other now and move on.

 

Anyway, Laurel does seem to suffer, from a writing standpoint, from one wasted opportunity after another.  Some characters have complete gaps of background missing, but her background seems to be spotty and inconsistent. 

[JJ928]

 

This flies in the face, I think, of the EPs professed 'love' for Laurel (and, possibly, KC) - there are a lot of wasted opportunities for her across 2 seasons.  Maybe such scenes were intended at some point, and the EPs who rave about her know about them.  But the audience hasn't seen them, so we have no idea what they're talking about.

 

See I don't feel like the writers really love Laurel/KC at all. I think most of her praise has been their way to support the actress, which I'm fine with. Lets face it, apart from her fans she has little to no media support. Almost all of the reviews I read during last season either failed to mention her (even when she had a role in the episode), or outright trashed the character. I feel like the writers come off as more frustrated than in awe of this character.

 

If you look at the way they speak about Caity/Sara & Emily/Felicity, compared to Katie/Laurel, I think there is a real difference on their level of excitement. It's one of the few reasons I'm not worried about Sara, YET. Marc, Andrew, Greg (even Geoff), talked about how awesome Caity was at comic-con and how much they loved working with her - compare that to their KC has been a champ attitude.

Edited September 22, 2014 by JJ928

[dtissagirl]

There's also some weird thing going on with Laurel that relates character likeability versus that character being a nice person. These things should not be connected in the first place -- you might love Moira, or Malcolm, or Slade, but most [sane] people would never ever want to be friends with them, or think the horrible things they did are WHAT make them likeable.

Audiences like characters when they 1. understand their motivation, and 2. are either surprised positively by their reactions to events, or are able to predict what they'll do in any event. The positive surprise usually has to do with the text challenging our expectations of where the plot is going; and being able to predict what a character is going to do has to do with consistent characterisation and development. But liking a character has nothing to do with morally agreeing with them, or condoning their actions.

And I can see that the Arrow writers have been trying to show the audience that Laurel is A Good Person. That intent is clear. SHE was the one wronged by Oliver and Sara, she was the one who took care of Quentin, she was the one working for a not-profit to help the disenfranchised. But because the exectution failed over and over again -- in the writing, in KC's acting choices, in the lack of chemistry between KC and Amell, in the bringing of other characters much better written and acted that replaced Laurel's narrative functions -- she doesn't come off as the Good Person the EPs want her to be. And so, it's not even that audiences are rejecting Laurel because of her faults. The rejection comes from the failure of matching the writers' intent for her with how she is perceived. There's a huge ass communication breakdown between script, production [acting, directing and editing], and final product the audience is watching.

And the bigger problem I see, based on panels and interviews, is that the EPs are ignoring the fact that the audience is NOT SEEING their intentions for Laurel. The audience is in fact seeing THE OPPOSITE of their intentions. And there's also some blaming the audience for that failure, as if viewers are collectively ~meanies ganging up on poor Laurel, probably because their egos are not keen on admitting their creation is not working. So they're gonna keep on writing Laurel as A Good Person, because in their heads she's never been anything but, and audiences are gonna continue to feel uncomfortable while watching her because the final result doesn't match the text's intention.

[Nanrad]

There's also some weird thing going on with Laurel that relates character likeability versus that character being a nice person. These things should not be connected in the first place -- you might love Moira, or Malcolm, or Slade, but most [sane] people would never ever want to be friends with them, or think the horrible things they did are WHAT make them likeable.

 

lmfao.

 

I wouldn't even want to be related to these people--they seem to have it the worse.

[Sakura12]

I don't hate Laurel, I just don't care about her. She adds nothing to the narrative to me. However, there was one instance in season 2 where the character just failed for me. In episode 19 when she's putting together her Oliver/Arrow board, and she goes to the hospital to see Sara (at this point we know she had put two and two together), and she walks in to see her changing - sees her scars. She didn't react.

 

I was waiting for a reaction, for her to be horrified. I kept thinking if that were my sister I would have been in tears, because she knew Oliver was tortured in season 1 and seemed genuinely upset for him. I got nothing for her own sister. I don't know if it was the writing, or if the actress failed to deliver suitable emotion for me, but I was left totally annoyed. Sara was no angel, and though I love her, she's done a lot of terrible crap. Still, I thought that would be their moment, that would be where Laurel finally really allowed herself to let go of the past and forgive her, because I still don't feel like she really has. I know the EP's told us she has, but I don't feel like that was properly portrayed on the show. 

 

That was a big wtf? scene for me too. Laurel saw Sara's scars and the Doctor just told her that Sara's extensive injuries looked like someone that had been in combat. There was barely a reaction from her. She had a bigger reaction to Oliver's scars. I know Sara did shitty things to Laurel but come on, that's her little sister. Then instead of talking to Sara about her injuries she runs to Oliver all excited to tell him how much she knows him and supports him or something. She doesn't even confront her sister about being a vigilante with the Arrow. All she cares about is knowing that Oliver is the Arrow and she loves him now. 

 

We were told that Laurel took care of Quentin when he was drowning himself in alcohol. But I can't imagine that she did that great a job with the way we've seen her handle Dinah when telling her that Sara wasn't the girl in the picture and that seeing her little sister all scared up meant nothing to her. I'd believe that Quentin brought himself out of his stupor than anything Laurel said or did for him. 

Edited September 22, 2014 by Sakura12

[Betweenthisandthat]

Is Laurel a favorite of mine?  No, but I do feel like she needs defending because she does get blamed for the weirdest things.

 

Like she killed Tommy.  No, Malcolm did that when he set the Glades to ruins.  Is she to blame for being at work when she shouldn't have been and endangering herself?  Yes, but she didn't "Kill" Tommy, yet she's blamed for that.  Sara had a crush on Oliver, but didn't Oliver and Laurel know each other for decades, perhaps even longer than Sara knew Oliver?  Couldn't there have been something between Laurel and Oliver that Sara didn't see or didn't want to see?  And how does that justify sleeping with her sister's boyfriend?  That was a bad move for anyone to make.  Doesn't make me hate Sara, in fact I love that character, but it's not like Laurel stole Oliver away from her.  Didn't Oliver love Laurel half his life?  Did he feel anything like that for Sara?  Because it seems like Sara liked Oliver, resented Laurel for their relationship while Oliver saw Sara as just there and a way to get out of a relationship in the absolute worst way possible.

 

Her relationship with Tommy:  She did care for him but those feelings for Oliver came back.  She's to blame for not knowing her own heart, but Tommy did dump her. He didn't fight for her; he was willing to let her go and he did.  He knew Oliver felt something for Laurel and she for him although she couldn't admit it.  Tommy wasn't wrong, but Laurel was available to explore her feelings for Oliver.  None of this is wrong, but what I didn't like was when Oliver told Tommy to fight for Laurel while running back to her as well.  It was like he told Tommy he wasn't an option then and then went back on that to woo Laurel.  I felt badly for Tommy, but Malcolm is to blame for his death.  Tommy is to blame for dumping a woman he wanted to be with. Oliver is to blame for being wishy washy about what his intentions were toward Laurel.  Laurel is to blame for following her feelings with Tommy and Oliver.  Everyone did crappy things but none of that made them hateful. 

 

Laurel called the cops on Sara or some party she was attending.  Was Sara underage?  Was she a wayward teen?  Why did Laurel do this?  From what we hear of her past, Sara seemed to be a mess, and that gets whitewashed somehow to make Laurel look like the real asshole in the situation.  From what I can see Oliver, Laurel, and Sara made some mistakes and all suffered in their own way and they've taken the blame for their situations.  The problem with Laurel is that she wasn't tortured on an island for 5 years so any suffering she claimed to have experienced seems much less on a superficial level.  She isn't allowed to claim her pain because it seems on the surface to be trivial when it isn't.  I don't mean to stick up for Laurel but I do think her she's allowed to own her pain and loneliness.  She finished law school, made herself a lawyer, dealt with an alcholic father and can only guess was the only one - seeing as her mother left - to help him back on his feet.  In all the time Oliver was "dead" the only person she was with was Tommy.

 

In a universe where these characters are so gray, somehow everything with Laurel is black or white.  People can like or dislike whoever they choose, and but I felt like Laurel gets blamed for decisions that weren't entirely hers or that overlooks the decisions other characters make. That's my objection as I've tried to state above.  The writers haven't done the best job with her in season 2, but there was a lot about that season that didn't get the care it deserved when it came to character motivations.  Maybe the show has mishandled her backstory too.  It's not that hard for me to imagine what she went through those five years, what anger she kept inside of herself that didn't come out until the Oliver returned.  I imagine her personal life was stunted, that she focused on helping other people and neglected her emotional needs. Perhaps that's not something other people imagine and it should be shown, not inferred. I really don't know.  I suppose that's all I have to add, and I'll hop off my soap box now. I look forward to all the Arrow ladies to get some good stuff to work with this season and to stay alive and continue to be onscreen!  I do worry that the show will discard of Laurel which will make me rethink my investement in Arrow, not out of love for Laurel specifically, but because I'm not a fan of shows discarding characters under pressure like that. Especially female characters. I supposed I'd feel the same if they kill off Sara, but for other reasons. I'm still kind of pissed about Shado's death and how that was handled.  Now that was problematic to me on multiple levels. 

Edited September 22, 2014 by Betweenthisandthat

[catrox14]

Like she killed Tommy.  No, Malcolm did that when he set the Glades to ruins.  Is she to blame for being at work when she shouldn't have been and endangering herself?  Yes, but she didn't "Kill" Tommy, yet she's blamed for that.

 

 

Even the most ardent Laurel detractor knows that Malcolm was responsible for the murders of 500 people.

 

She didn't just endanger herself, she endangered anyone that gave a shit about her and wanted to save her.  Laurel holds culpability in the sense that she was told REPEATEDLY to leave the building and she went back in anyway. Tommy would not be dead if he didn't go into the burning and collapsing building to save Laurel.  So, yes his death is on her head for her actions. 

 

But for me, that isn't the reason for the dislike. It's because she then claimed that Tommy LEFT HER. When he fucking DIED.  I understand feelings of abandonment but that is not one of those cases.  She should feel guilty for her actions that got him killed, but we never saw that. Only WOE IS ME Every one leaves me.  No, girl, your stupidity got your boyfriend dead and you refused to accept any responsibility for the actions that got him there. (well I think she finally did but that was such a badly acted scene that I didn't care).

 

As to Laurel's pain, I've not seen any argument that Laurel isn't entitled to her own pain.  The problem is they never did a good job acting wise or writing wise to make me believe that Laurel was so wounded, so upset, so traumatized by her sister and boyfriend's death and resurrection that she would start drinking and popping pill.

 

She didn't call the cops because she was being a good-doer and was worried about the underage drinking. She called the cops because she was being petty.  Remember Laurel's ethics allow her to blackmail her way into a job.  I don't think calling the cops to ruin a party because she's jealous and petty are beyond her wheelhouse and probably informs why she could easily go the blackmail route. 

 

ETA: And by calling the cops...telling her Dad who is a cop.

Edited September 22, 2014 by catrox14

[Nanrad]

Between, I think it's over exaggerated just how much fans blame Laurel for that. Sure, some people have admitted to it, but I don't believe it's a majority opinion. They blame Laurel for being stupid, but most knows that she isn't at fault. Just like I think it's stupid to blame Oliver for Sara's "death". Yeah, they cheated, but Sara decided to go on that boat herself and the reason the boat went down was because of a larger, sinister reason. It doesn't matter if Laurel knew Oliver longer, she called the cops on her sister, which resulted in being grounded for a month all because Sara was interested in him too. She didn't talk to Sara and was like, "I really like Oliver, can you back off?" Until/if it's clarified, it looks like Laurel said nothing about her feelings, and then got her sister in trouble so she could get with Oliver. Even though they were friends for a while, that doesn't mean that they would have feelings for one another. But, ultimately, this all falls on how Laurel treated her sister when Sara was trying to pursue Oliver. Even if she and Oliver had something, Laurel clearly thought her sister was a threat if she called the cops. I haven't seen anyone justify Sara sleeping with Oliver, at least, not here. Laurel didn't steal a boyfriend from Sara, but she was cutthroat in making sure they never got together. Oliver says he loved Laurel for half of his (short) life, but was a terrible boyfriend to her while together--what does that say about his love?

 

Tommy dumped Laurel because he would've been fighting a losing battle--why fight for a woman who will eventually leave or cheat on you with the other guy anyway? All it would've done it set him up for heartbreak. Tommy is at fault for trying to pursue someone who needed time alone to sort out her feelings overall and wasn't invested in him anyway. Laurel is at fault for not being honest with herself. Oliver is at fault for nailing Laurel within a day of them breaking up. Again, it's not wishy washy: Oliver always wanted Laurel, but didn't think he deserved her. 

 

Let's be honest here: how many siblings, especially close in age, call the cops on their brother/sister, not many. It's an unwritten rule. Laurel calling the cops changed nothing about Sara's behavior. Contrary to the belief of some, Sara's behavior doesn't get whitewashed (especially to make Laurel look like an asshole). Many fans acknowledge that Sara was a party girl/out of control. but as of now, Laurel's intentions doesn't seem to line up with looking out for her sister. Oliver and Sara take the blame, Laurel doesn't. Laurel cannot claim her pain because she is too inconsistent for it to resonate with the audience. The amount of people she was with means nothing to me because she was technically single. 

 

It's been discussed the the issues with Laurel are threefold: writing, acting, and in universe behavior. She's inconsistent, a hypocrite, seems to serve no purpose, comes off as judgmental, isn't called on her crap, etc. Laurel is disliked based on her own merit. The other problem with Laurel is there is too much guesswork to understand her motivations--it's hard to get a handle on her character. Ultimately, it's up to Laurel whether or not she wants to move on from what happened to her. There is only so long she can hold on to that anger before it consumes her or becomes tiresome to hear about.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Nanrad

[Orion]

I'm going to agree and disagree with you @Betweenthisandthat.

 

In regards to Tommy's death, did Laurel kill Tommy? No a steel bar did that but would Tommy have been in CNRI (would anyone have been in CNRI) if Laurel wasn't there? No. We don't blame first responders who rush into danger to save people when they fail to evacuate an area when a natural disaster is coming. We blame the people who didn't listen to repeated warnings. Laurel, someone we are told repeatedly is a smart woman, ignored Oliver, Moira on the news, and her fathers tearful begging to leave that building, she does deserve the blame for her actions. Unfortunately, actions have consequences and Laurel made choices that directly led to Tommy's death. She's not the only one to blame, certainly Malcolm and Tommy made choices that lead up to that moment but the problem is that Tommy is dead and Malcolm is a villain so the majority of the blame falls on Laurel's shoulders.

 

You bring up good points that we don't know Laurel's motivations about a LOT of things as others pointed out above. We don't know why Laurel called the cops on Sara, we don't know how long Laurel and Oliver were together, we don't why they got together, etc.  It could be that Laurel saw Sara's feelings for Oliver and she wanted him for herself, so she insured Sara was out of the picture. It could be that Sara was a wild teenager, drinking and doing drugs at a party and Laurel had the best of intentions by calling the police. The problem is we don't know because the writers haven't included those scenes. So we are left to either A. make assumptions based on our feelings towards the character or B. take what the story has given us and not look at it further. It seems to me that your filling in the blanks the story has given us and finding the good in Laurel (that's absolutely okay to do), I'm much more of a literal viewer, so I tend to take what is shown on screen and try not to read into it beyond that. Sara views what happened as Laurel throwing up a roadblock to a possible relationship between Oliver and Sara and we never got Laurel's POV on the story so I'm left siding with Sara because that's the person's perspective we were given. I tend to assume if we were suppose to view that scene differently than Sara does, the writers would have showed us the other side it. It's just a different way to view the story and neither is wrong.

 

I agree that almost ever character in this show has shades of grey. The problem with Laurel for me is that she's not owning up to her grey. Oliver doesn't claim to be a good person, Sara sees herself as a killer, Diggle wonders if he's still a good person after his mission in the war.  Laurel just flip flops around in her own story.  She's given shades of grey but then goes right back to staking her claim on the moral high ground. In Season one for example, she likes that the Hood helps her, likes the results that he gets but as soon as she has to personally witness him beating someone up, then she has a problem with it.  If the writers would stop telling everyone that she's a do-gooder I think it would go a long way for her character for some people.

 

I'll also blame the writers for Laurel suffering from not understanding "time and place". A lot of the anger Laurel feels is justified however, the moments she picks to express that anger are just wrong. In the pilot, she's mad Oliver is back, so she turns off the TV in a room where other people are watching it, she's mad when Oliver shows up at CNRI to talk to her and let's him have it on a street corner in front of Tommy. In Season 2 she freaks out on Sara, throwing a glass at her, in the middle of her parents happy reunion with the daughter that they thought was dead for 5 years, and then in the middle of the dinner from hell, where her father is having his dreams of a reunited family dashed in his face she throws a temper tantrum. All of those scenes have valid emotions that anyone would be feeling in those moments, however there are points in life when you have to put on your big girl panties and realize that other people are hurting more than you and wait to express yourself. If she had gasped in horror at the news report on the TV and walked away instead of turning off the set, if she had told Oliver that the street corner in front of Tommy was not the place to talk about everything that happened 5 years ago, if she had let her parents have their moment with their daughter and walked away to drink her wine in another room, if she had held her rage at Oliver and Sara at that dinner and gone and put a supportive hand on Quentin, all of that would have done wonders for her character. Instead all those scenes were all about her.  Any sympathy she should have had from the audience was lost.

 

Laurel doesn't have the advantage of the back story that makes the average viewer feel sorry for her. I got up and left the room when she told Sara that she felt like she drowned on that boat too. You know who felt like they drowned on that boat, the people who actually did, Laurel. The writers can not include things where Laurel compares what she went through to what Oliver and Sara went through. The more they do that the less sympathy I feel for Laurel. She has had it tough, but she didn't react at the time that the tough things happened. If they wanted me to link Laurel's addictions to Tommy's death then it should have happened right after Tommy died not 7 months after the fact. If they wanted me to believe that loosing Sara and Oliver broke her then she should have been struggling all along not getting her law degree and having an overall good life.

 

But again, all of this is perspective and I wish I was like you and had the ability to enjoy or even tolerate Laurel's character. I would enjoy the show a lot more. Unfortunately, the way it stands I'm going to end up not watching if they continue on with Laurel the way she has been and that will be my loss.

[Sakura12]

Since we're talking about friends and family that watch Arrow. My mom watches it. She's a casual viewer that tunes in every week, she doesn't know anything about comics and barely thinks about the show after it's over. However sometime around the middle of season 1 when we were watching the show together at her place she said "The girl who plays Laurel is a terrible actor". My mother never talks about anyone's acting. All she cares about is if the show is enjoyable. So I was pretty shocked to hear her make that comment.  She's also another that doesn't believe that Laurel will become Black Canary, she thinks it's just not possible because her job is to be the damsel in distress. Sara's the Black Canary. 

[wonderwall]

Ahh, I love the scent of people being schooled in the afternoon... Check out this person's interpretation of the whole Laurel/Oliver/Sara flashback debate... 

 

X

[Sakura12]

theapplefour and Arrowfan1 are probably known by everyone in the Arrow tumblr fandom. They attack anyone that says anything negative about Laurel and go on long rants of why Laurel's a saint that is better than everyone else. Which I guess makes sense if you're a Laurel fan since the character seem to see herself that way. 

[wingster55]

(would anyone have been in CNRI) if Laurel wasn't there? No.

 

You mean other than her friend and all the people we saw before? Laurel just stayed longer...so that part isn't as bad as some think imo..it was clear to me that all of the CNRI employees were trying to save the files or what not.

 

"Schooled" isn't the word I would use (partly because I hate that word)

..those two never made Laurel out to be a saint from what I've seen.

[wonderwall]

"Schooled" isn't the word I would use (partly because I hate that word)

..those two never made Laurel out to be a saint from what I've seen.

Agree to disagree :)

 

And if you've seen their other posts, you'll see that Sakura's statement is true. Regardless, I agree with the OP in that link. 

Edited September 22, 2014 by wonderwall