Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Lord Kira]

@willpwr When Supernatural season 3 aired and Katie Cassidy appeared as Ruby... she was pretty much hated. Yes, she had a few good scenes but not much. It wasn't until KC left the show and the next actress to play Ruby was even worse that everyone came to the sudden realization "You know what, KC was good as Ruby." The fact that her replacement was terrible had a lot to do with people suddenly liking her as Ruby.

 

Note: I'm speaking about the fandom who watched the series live as it aired years ago. I can't speak for the people that binge-watched on Netflix, TNT, and the DVDs.

 

I was pretty involved with the fandom back then. That was before the fandom went nuts.

 

@10Eleven12 I think making Laurel a lawyer was a combination of an EP being a lawyer as well as their love of ripping off Nolan Batman movies.

 

I hope they don't expect me to just ignore the fact that she blackmailed someone for her job back.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Lord Kira

[KirkB]

I wouldn't say she was 'good' as Ruby, so much as she was fun to watch. She seemed to be enjoying herself and Ruby was very dynamic. Demons on Supernatural get to be way over the top. On the other hand, until I started going to TWoP for Arrow I had no memory of KC being Ruby, and while I seem to be in the minority I actually thought the second actress did a better job with the character.

 

You know what might Laurel a tiny bit more enjoyable in season 3, if they continue with the villains randomly showing up at Laurel's door to tell her the secrets everyone's been keeping from her.

 

That would be hysterical.

[Lord Kira]

That would be hysterical.

 

Malcolm: "No, Laurel. I am your father."

Edited September 19, 2014 by Lord Kira

[Chaser]

It is kind interesting to me though that SPN was KC breakout CW role. That that was the role that got the network interested in her because I got the impression she didn't enjoy it and left under cloud.

Edited September 19, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[statsgirl]

I haven't ever stopped watching a show because of one character, but I have stopped if the characters that I like get too little screentime and the show is full of things or characters I'm not interested in. That's why I was ready to give up in 2b, between the Laurel time and the flashbacks.

A lot of times I'm taken out of the story in the Laurel scenes because I feel the other actors are reacting to the good-doer altruistic heart of gold Laurel that maybe is in the scripts? While KC is playing her as invulnerable hardened unreacheable future-superhero just you wait I'll be BC one day Laurel. So I either think the other characters are dealing with Laurel like we deal with children/crazy people -- do not poke the beast -- or I have trouble understanding why Quentin/Sara/Tommy/Oliver even want to interact with her in the first place.

Whenever I read a fic where Tommy is still alive and is trying to win Laurel back, all I can say is "Why???????"

 

I honestly wouldn't put to much into Laurel being at CNRI.  I know a couple of people who either went or applied to jobs in that direction because those were the jobs available (not that they didn't want to help, but it wasn't their first interest).  So perhaps it was just Laurel needing a job (student loans are rough). 

I think the reason Laurel was at CNRI, a non-profit legal aid clinic, was to show what a wonderful heart she has. Here she is, fighting for the little people who can't fight for themselves when she could have been making big bucks at a major law firm because she's so smart.

 

Huh, how much does a non-profit law firm pay? Considering the fact that Laurel's never really won a case on the show, she probably didn't get paid a lot. It's something I never really understood because if Laurel worked for a non-profit and needed to pay off student loans, wouldn't she still be in debt because of student loans? All I know is, is that Law School is super super expensive. 

That just shows what a wonderful person she is.

 

Those places are run from either government grants or donations from rich people or large corporations but the pay has to be minimal and the work unsteady in case they lost funding, as they did in s1, and Tommy proved his love by throwing Laurel a fund-raiser..

 

 

Malcolm: "No, Laurel. I am your father."

 

I'd love to see Malcolm take her on.   it. Quentin deserves better than someone who is always throwing his drinking and marital failure in his face.  

 

If

Laurel does become DA, four years after she graduated from law school,

 I'll know the EPs haven't learned anything from the mess they made of the character last season. At this point, I think the only way to save Laurel is to minimize her involvement with Team Arrow and the whole show itself, make her a consistent character that KC is able to play, and work her in slowly.  Putting her front and center, whether personally (addiction arc) professionally, or as the Black Canary is IMO a mistake for a number of reasons.  Yes, it was the jerks who blocked her out or cut her out of the s3 poster but i'd venture to say there were a lot more people who would have preferred she not be at Oliver's hand.

Edited September 19, 2014 by statsgirl

[SmallScreenDiva]

I've never seen Supernatural, been waiting for it to end so I can binge watch it, was she really that good as Ruby?

 

Well, good might be too strong a word ;) There were no heavy acting demands on the character; Ruby was pretty much one note, IMO. And Katie had good chemistry with Jared Padalecki. But nothing sensational. The other posters are right, though. The praises for Katie's Ruby came out only after Genevieve Cortese (now Mrs. Padalecki) took over the role, LOL!

Edited September 19, 2014 by SmallScreenDiva

[willpwr]

Oh okay, so it was more like campy fun rather than good acting, I guess. I think I would prefer that to what I'm seeing on my screen, though.

[fantique]

Actually just had a horible thought. What if now everytime someone raises an objection to Laurel's invasion (sticking to that term) of the Foundry TPTB rationalise them away to just be the manifestation from those "haters" that will never be sastisfied. Oh Poster Jerks!!!!! What have you done!!!!! This could further drive their delusions that Laurel is just misunderstood and needs more time to prove herself... Sigh

[Lord Kira]

I'm scared now with all the hubbub about KC/Laurel "hate" that people who don't like Laurel will be accused of bullying and the show will keep KC prominent as a "you can do your part against cyber-bulling" thing.

 

Now that people who don't like Laurel have been made to look like the bad guys, I'm a bit nervous about the future. Hopefully I'm just overreacting (I've been known to do that).

[Chaser]

Unfortunately, I think people who express their displeasure at Laurel get put into two categories: People who hate watch KC and People who hate LL because they think she gets in the way of Olicity. I'm sure some fans do fall into those categories, but I don't think the majority do. But the show runners can use that as an excuse to not fix her character.  

 

Hopefully the EPs can weed through clutter and find the constructive criticism in it all. I'm not holding out much hope for it though so I try to keep to two general roles when commenting on entertainment sites: talking about what I enjoy (including Sara as BC) and do not mention Laurel. 

[calliope1975]

Well, the show will do what the show wants to do. However, viewers have the choice to watch or not. Laurel seems to be a make or break character for a lot - as in increased screen time may lead to decreased viewers. It's a risk on both ends. The show may lose viewers and, for me, I may lose the entertainment I enjoy from watching. It's sort of interesting for me to see since I can't remember a character being so divisive on anything else I've ever watched. (Lori never truly bugged me on TWD though I didn't really like her.)

 

No actor should ever be attacked online or in person, but I feel like that, maybe, because the criticisms of the character seem to have been ignored (this might not be the right word) in that they increased the screen time of a controversial character in an attempt to redeem her, viewers are now lashing out at the actress, too. I'm not saying what's in my head very well here. I hope this makes sense. It's like the bitterness towards the character is bleeding over onto the actress.

 

Also, some people online are just dicks. 

[statsgirl]

It does make sense because last season a lot of us were frustrated with what we were seeing on 2b, having been set up with high expectations from 2a.

 

Any negative comments about Laurel just made the EPs praise her more and it seemed like put her onscreen even more, although that may be a result of the delay between plotting an episode and when we finally see it.

 

It's not right to attack the actor (although sometimes difficult not to when she says something particularly stupid).  But sometimes there seems like nothing else you can do, just as I assume that fans of Laurel/KC blame EBR for stealing her leading lady role.

[Matt K]

Next to nothing, especially right out of law school. She'd be making around $40-45K, if that. (And I realize that's not nothing, but compared to a first year associate at a mid- to large-sized firm, it's a pittance.)  She wouldn't be making too much more than that at the DA's office, BTW, especially as a young attorney with less than 5 years of practice experience.

 

That's why if the speculated "Laurel helps Oliver buy back Verdant" storyline happens, I'm going to cry extreme bullshit.

 

I would say about $50-$60k.  At least that was what I was looking at when I applied to one of those jobs about 10 years ago, which was comparable to what a smallish sized firm would pay.  The again at the time there was a glut of lawyers so unless Laurel was top 10% of her class, $60k would probably be the best she could make without any connections.  As for how these places can pay well enough, some states require (others request) active lawyers to pay towards a legal aid organization (i.e. a service providing legal services to the poor). 

 

More on topic though, I do blame KC (somewhat) since I feel she's a bad actress (at least here).  While it's true that better material can help (my take on Roy, he's not a great actor but they at least write to his strengths) but it is an actor's job to elevate the material.  That said, I don't really care what the writers do at this point since I'm done with the show (an so far I've never come back to a show that I've dropped, to many other things to watch).

[Lord Kira]

I know I've been accused of being an Olicity shipper just because I don't like Laurel. I'm ignored when I try to point out that I disliked Laurel before Felicity ever appeared on the show. 

 

This season being the season of Olicity and Laurel in training for BC I think it will only get worse.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Lord Kira

[calliope1975]

That said, I don't really care what the writers do at this point since I'm done with the show (an so far I've never come back to a show that I've dropped, to many other things to watch).

 

Just curious, Matt K. Was it Laurel that made you quit watching or a combo of other aspects of the show? 

[Matt K]

No actor should ever be attacked online or in person, but I feel like that, maybe, because the criticisms of the character seem to have been ignored (this might not be the right word) in that they increased the screen time of a controversial character in an attempt to redeem her, viewers are now lashing out at the actress, too. I'm not saying what's in my head very well here. I hope this makes sense. It's like the bitterness towards the character is bleeding over onto the actress.

 

I agree completely, although there is a difference between attacking and critiquing.  I was think though that another issue with KC and Laurel is that if the actor is at least personable then I feel it's easier to forgive the issues with the acting and the character.  Actors with abrasive personalities seem to get more hate (for lack of a better word) but that makes sense.

[Chaser]

I don't think questioning an acting choice is the same as hating an actor. What does irritate me is that the media (and actors) act like hating a character is the same as hating the actor. Which I feel encourages the audience to interchange the names. 

 

When I see KC in interviews I don't have a problem with her. She seems a little reserved, but no red flags. However, when I read her interviews I just don't understand where she is coming from. That makes it hard to read Laurel.

 

I think the Laurel hate is going to get worse. As the character starts getting more screen time the audience is going to cling even more to their favorites and thinking things like "that scene should have Diggle/Felicity/Quentin/etc." Two seasons in, its really hard to get the audience to change their mind. I was indifferent to Laurel at the start of S2 and then when her character came back full force and I couldn't stand her. Of course, that was also the writers fault because the story was horrible. 

Edited September 20, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[Matt K]

Just curious, Matt K. Was it Laurel that made you quit watching or a combo of other aspects of the show? 

Check out > But suficet to say it was a combination but Laurel was one of the major issues.  The lack of character development was another (the characters stopped acting like people and it was more of at the whim of the plot) and finally the fridging of Shado and Moira as well as the constant potential of fridging Sara, which is Laurel's "fault".

 

That said, Laurel was so superfluous to the show and as such took over plots that better belonged to other character.  Coupling that to the fact that KC's acting was so bad and the plots were so poorly written it ended up being the point where I just didn't look forward to watching the show anymore And at that point, like a number of other shows I gave up on, I stopped watching. 

 

That said if anything about this upcoming season sounded amazing I would be back but nothing has sounded that great to me so I'm out.

 

 

ETA: Also Waller, how could I forget her.  Waller possibly being more prominent along with Laurel made the decision to drop the show at lot easier (Brandon Routh didn't help either, although I did like him in Dylan Dog despite the ending being pretty awful). 

[TanyaKay]

Malcolm: "No, Laurel. I am your father."

 

it would be so much fun if John Barrowman randomly knocks on people's door and tell them that he is their father.

[Sakura12]

That said if anything about this upcoming season sounded amazing I would be back but nothing has sounded that great to me so I'm out.

 

That's where I'm at. Nothing they said or released so far sounds interesting to me, most of it is making me not want to watch. More Laurel is one of the bigger issues for me. I know she's sticking around but I don't have to get used to it. I can just stop watching. 

Edited September 20, 2014 by Sakura12

[statsgirl]

Sometimes I wonder, is it just me, am I making too big a thing about Laurel and her screen time?  And then I remember how disappointed I got every time Laurel took centre stage and I lost Team Arrow, and I think, even if it's just me, it's too much.

 

I would say about $50-$60k.  At least that was what I was looking at when I applied to one of those jobs about 10 years ago, which was comparable to what a smallish sized firm would pay.

That explains how she can afford her apartment.   ( I knew I should have applied to law school. In my field even with a PhD I'm probably going to end up doing volunteer work until I can get a job for less money thatn that.)

Edited September 20, 2014 by statsgirl

[Starfish35]

I thought I was done with the show after the season two finale, after the jacket hand-off. I was so angry. But since Lauriver's been taken off the table, Laurel isn't becoming insta-Canary, and Sara still holds the Canary title for the time being, I'm cautiously giving it a chance, because outside of Laurel I actually do enjoy the show (mostly - season two had issues apart from this that I should probably take to the Bitterness thread). But I don't know how it's going to go. I'm never going to get over the resentment about the Sara situation, and I don't know how they can fix that without giving up on Laurel being BC. And even with her greatly reduced role in season two, the times she did get more screentime were almost always the worst parts of the season for me. Not quite always - there were rare moments. But I just have a hard time seeing a way to fix this whole situation.

And I agree that it's probably not going to go well fandom wise. The writers made the mistake in season two of letting us learn what a Laurel-lite version of Arrow looked like, and at least for myself, I discovered it was a vast improvement (and I think I'm probably not the only one). And fandom seems to come unglued at the idea of her actually being on Team Arrow. There was the huge outcry last season when the pictures of her holding Oliver's bow came out, and now this poster thing. I don't know what will happen when the season actually starts - if people will be like "oh well this isn't so bad" or if they'll be "hell to the no - get her out of here." Guess we'll see.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Starfish35

[ahisma]

Laurel was one of the major issues. The lack of character development was another (the characters stopped acting like people and it was more of at the whim of the plot) ...

That said if anything about this upcoming season sounded amazing I would be back but nothing has sounded that great to me so I'm out.

This is me. Laurel's whiplash emotions to manufacture drama were bad enough, but I actually stopped watching when Oliver decided, after steadfastly defending his mother against all criticisms including accusations of mass murder, to suddenly hate her for her very understandable handling of his sister's parentage. Then I found out Moira got killed off, and was really glad I stopped watching, as she was one of my favorite characters.

If I hear Laurel fades into the background (or gains a coherent personality), maybe I'll come back, but it doesn't sound likely.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

That's where I'm at. Nothing they said or released so far sounds interesting to me, most of it is making me not want to watch. More Laurel is one of the bigger issues for me. I know she's sticking around but I don't have to get used to it. I can just stop watching. 

 

There are limited portions of S3 which sound interesting to me. I want to see if the reasoning for Felicity and Oliver to go on one date and then decide they can't be together is complete BS or viable. I hate they are introducing Ray Palmer for a new love triangle because I abhor love triangles with the heat of a thousand suns. I want to see David Ramsey with a baby, but I don't know how I feel about Daddy Diggle and Oliver being at odds. I don't want to play which episode will Sara die in. I want to see the continued stunts and what Malcolm has in store for Thea. I want to see Roy and Oliver figure out the Thea situation.

 

I don't want to see anything to do with Laurel. At this point they need to retcon her or have a third personality appear. They can't keep rebooting her. If you attempt to watch Arrow from the beginning it is ridiculously obvious how inconsistent Laurel is. It is painful. While the writers have struggled with every character, Laurel is clearly the weakest link. It isn't because I ship Olicity or because I prefer Sara. I do prefer Olicity to Lauriver. I do think Sara is a kickass BC. It's because I don't enjoy the character of Laurel She has no compassion despite her supposed caring personality. She's selfish and makes everything about her. Her "dead" sister came back to life and Laurel threw things at her. I don't have sympathy for her regarding Oliver cheating on her, she never gained perspective on the situation.  

 

If my sister "died" on a boat with my boyfriend, I'd be pissed until the grief overtook me. If he came back to life, I'd immediately want to know everything about my sister's final moments on Earth even if I had to speak to him. I might be upset he made it back and she didn't, but I'd come to grips with it. I'd never wish anyone death. If my sister came back to life, I'd be a mess. Spontaneous crying would probably happen. My immediate response would never be about how my life was ruined because she died and came back to life.

 

If Laurel had ever had what I'd call a reasonable response to any of the situations we've seen her in, I might like her enough to care. Instead I don't care and her presence is making me indifferent to others on the show. I might give it two or three episodes, but if lessons weren't really learned from S1 and S2 then I'm out. Arrow isn't must watch TV, it isn't rewatch TV, and it isn't own the DVDs TV. I watch to see a couple of characters, but most episodes become easily forgettable. 

[Lord Kira]

Wasn't Laurel supposed to have been "letting the darkness in"? They could have at least made her a villain, but they never brought up the darkness in her again.

 

The character is just so sloppy. So consistently inconsistent. 

Edited September 20, 2014 by Lord Kira

[KirkB]

Even if I hated Laurel I would keep watching the show because I like literally every other character to one degree or another. Even with increased screen time, even if she does become the Canary, hell even if Sara dies for her, I can't be bothered to give enough of a crap about Laurel to let her ruin the show for me. They would probably have to change the show from Arrow to Arrow and Canary for it to really become an issue. So as far as I'm concerned they can do whatever they want with Laurel and I will just continue to ignore her.

[Sakura12]

Wasn't Laurel supposed to have been "letting the darkness in"? They could have at least made her a villain, but they never brought up the darkness in her again.

 

I think we were supposed to see that as Laurel's a badass moment. When it came across as Laurel's dumb enough to listen to the advice of a crazy murderer. I don't even know what darkness she even let in. Blackmail while not a good-doer thing to do is not that dark especially the way she used it. 

 

Like most everything else, they have other characters like Sara talk about the real darkness inside of them and it just makes Laurel look stupid. 

 

Laurel saying she knows Oliver better than she knows her own name, when everyone and their mothers know Oliver better than her. Laurel saying she's dark while we've seen Sara and Oliver have to kill people to survive. But lets go with Laurel's intermittent drinking problem makes her dark.  I think they're smoking something that's gone bad when they write Laurel scenes. 

 

I couldn't ignore Laurel when she was barely part of the show. If her screentime increases and she has more scenes with the characters I do like, then It'll be more and more difficult to just ignore her. I like Sara too much to ever want Laurel as the Canary. So that right there is the deal breaker for me. 

Edited September 20, 2014 by Sakura12

[apinknightmare]

 

I don't even know what darkness she even let in.

 

Maybe she decided to stop getting her roots touched up. #badass

[KenyaJ]

How are you going to feel about

Laurel now being the DA as a lawyer with less than 5 years experience

?  LOL

 

I'm gonna have to shut off my brain for those scenes and make sure I don't have any projectile objects nearby.

Edited September 20, 2014 by KenyaJ

[Starfish35]

I actually stopped watching when Oliver decided, after steadfastly defending his mother against all criticisms including accusations of mass murder, to suddenly hate her for her very understandable handling of his sister's parentage.

Replying in Bitterness thread.

[apinknightmare]

I'm gonna have to shut off my brain for those scenes and make sure I don't have any projectile objects nearby.

 

I convinced a lawyer friend of mine to watch Arrow (in exchange for me watching Hart of Dixie), and every time a legal scene comes on, I receive a flurry of angry text messages. When I told her about Laurel

becoming the DA

, she nearly had a rage blackout, haha.

 

(In all fairness, she's super critical of all fictitious legal proceedings, but she doesn't like Laurel, so her rants about Arrow are extra hilarious.)

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I convinced a lawyer friend of mine to watch Arrow (in exchange for me watching Hart of Dixie), and every time a legal scene comes on, I receive a flurry of angry text messages. When I told her about Laurel

becoming the DA

, she nearly had a rage blackout, haha.

 

(In all fairness, she's super critical of all fictitious legal proceedings, but she doesn't like Laurel, so her rants about Arrow are extra hilarious.)

 

You got the short end of that stick. I watched almost two full seasons of Dixie. I had to stop. You want to talk about poor writing.

 

To keep it on topic. Zoe Hart might actually be more of a self-absorbed character than Laurel Lance. Although it would be a photo finish.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I've never seen Supernatural, been waiting for it to end so I can binge watch it, was she really that good as Ruby? TBH I'm not too familiar with KC's work which I find is normally better for me when I start watching a show because I don't have any preconceived notion about the actor or any expectations so it's usually easier for me to see them as the character rather than the actor. I don't know what went wrong with Laurel, though because all I see is KC and I'm usually pretty good at getting caught up in a fantasy world. I can't even blame the interviews, I looked them up afterward to try to make sense of what was going on in the screen and all it confirmed for me was that that's pretty much how KC is in interviews.

 

Meant to reply to this earlier. 

 

I was watching SPN and posting at TWOP when KC was Ruby. There was an outrage over Ruby because fans felt Kripke was being forced to add female characters. At the time female regulars were pretty much hated. Fans didn't want love interests. Only original Meg was welcomed without reservation. KC was decent but not memorable. A lot was going on in the SPN world when KC's Ruby was on.

 

I liked Harper's Island. I liked KC on Harper's Island. Harper's Island was in KC's wheelhouse. She played a spoiled, rich girl marrying a peasant. She dressed up and bitched out a former boyfriend. She had a few scenes where she had to be happy with her fiancee (Chris Gorham) and then all hell broke loose on the island. She proceeded to spend a lot of time bitching before 

she eventually was killed by the fiancee.

The character wasn't a stretch for her. There was automatic sympathy because people around her were being impaled and her 

father was split in half with a whaling knife.

She didn't have to work to get sympathy. Elaine Cassidy did far more with her character though. 

 

Harper's Island is also why I don't believe Katie's excuse for not having chemistry with Amell. She rode Gorham like a jockey at the Kentucky Derby in a deleted scene. She also had intimate moments throughout the show which didn't hit the cutting room floor. He has more children than Amell and has been married longer. Also it wasn't just the sex scene which was lacking with Amell. Pretty much all their scenes together fall flat. The air is sucked right out of the room.

 

Katie also had a bit part in Taken. She played a teen who goes to Europe to follow U2 around. Given her friend's financial situation and the family apartment she was staying out, I'd infer she was from a upper class family. She didn't make a splash but she managed to convey she was a rich girl willing to party with the cute boy she shared a cab with. 

 

Are you seeing a trend? Katie does well in roles in which she is rich and spoiled. She at least handles those roles without too much effort.

Edited September 20, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[FurryFury]

You got the short end of that stick. I watched almost two full seasons of Dixie. I had to stop. You want to talk about poor writing.

 

Hart of Dixie was stupid, but fun... Until they made the male romantic lead cheat on the heroine - after that, I was out (and I know I wasn't the only one). I simply can't root for the pairing that has one person cheat on the other (without any really weird circumstances, like thinking they are dead/they will never see each other again/being mind-controlled, etc.) This actually concerns Oliver/Laurel, too. How could they be so tone-deaf to expect the audience to root for a pairing that was so completely unappealing in the past? Oliver may have redeemed himself, to an extent, but Laurel was still the person who was delusional enough to overlook his treatment of her, and Oliver still would have probably felt guilty for all that he's done in the past (although we've never really saw that, sadly). There was simply no reason to root for them, and considering Laurel's main role was love interest, the utter failure with the romance damaged her character so much she didn't recover.

The lesson, I guess, is not to set the main LI in stone from the beginning. Just create one, maybe two possibilities, but don't go "star crossed lovers" from the pilot, ease into this, see what people (fans, critics, anyone) think.

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's stay on topic in here - this is where we talk about Laurel Lance and our like or dislike of her, the character, or the choices of the actress playing her. Comparisons to other actresses aren't prohibited, but extended discussion is off-topic. Thanks for your cooperation!

[dtissagirl]

I watch Hart of Dixie too. I find Zoe insufferable, and I just CANNOT buy it that she's a doctor. Also, oh yes, the writing is super stupid most of the time, it's all love triangles and miscommunication 24/7, but still, Rachel Bilson adds vulnerability to her scenes, and the show itself mocks the fact that Zoe is almost impossible to deal with on a daily basis. Also, just like the audience, the characters doubt her talents in her profession, and call her out when she makes stupid romantic decisions, and they even mock her ridiculous outfits in the text of the show [well, Lemon mocks her to my endless amusement], so I'm never really taken out of the narrative like it happens with Laurel.

 

Which is why I would really love it if one or two characters on Arrow *would* find Laurel abrasive and irritating. I mean, pretty sure Diggle already does, but he's never said anything to her face. I'm hoping someone -- maybe Roy? He's good at snarky -- becomes the audience's avatar with regards to Laurel in the text of the show, so that as a viewer, I can identify with reactions to Laurel in the text FOR THE FIRST TIME OMG.

[Sakura12]

I'm sure we'll see Laurel with yet another personality transplant that's supposed to make her awesome this time but make no sense story wise. She'll be working a high profile job with long hours, while also training and fighting crime at night.  Oliver's time was mostly spent on fighting crime, that's why he sucked at his job as CEO and he's already trained. Sara was a bartender which also makes no sense but it's also a job that doesn't take a lot prep time and it's one that is easily replaceable. So somehow Laurel will have time to have a more than full time career, train at a gym and fight crime because she's special and has more than 24 hours in her day unlike everyone else.

 

Is that really how they want us to see it? Do they really think that will make people love Laurel?

[Chaser]

Storylines like that just foster resentment to a character. I think we may see a situation like Haley in the Originals. Haley was universally hated on TVD - for good reason. But she seems to be a favorite on The Originals. I asked a friend who watched a couple episodes what the difference with her character was and she told me that they act like her bad actions never happened, just pretend she is a strong woman who was victimized. I can see a similar scenario with Laurel - They don't mention any of her questionable actions, just want a strong woman she is for want she has overcome. I think they are going to write her 'tough' with one-liners to lighten her up. Probably just gloss over her actions in S2. 

[Morrigan2575]

But the difference with Haley is that we're talking different shows. Yes, The Originals is a spin-off but there's always leeway when taking supporting chatacters from one show and making them main characters on a spinoff.

Attempting something like that with a main character going into S3 if an established show should cause a massive backlash....that's not to say they won't attempt it but it will result in WTF? From the audience.

[Chaser]

I think they will attempt it - its not a straight reboot but its close. I also don't think it will be successful.

[FurryFury]

I very much suspect that Haley became popular mostly because she's the one fangirls project onto while dreaming about hot vampires she is/was involved with. I don't watch Originals (because Klaus is the worst), but that's my impression from outside of the fandom. On Arrow, there's already Felicity for that (of course, she's more than that, but among the cast, she's definitely the fangirl surrogate). Actually, it's another reason why Laurel's so unpopular. It's pretty hard to imagine yourself in her shoes, and there's usually a part of the audience that needs/wants to.

[KenyaJ]

I convinced a lawyer friend of mine to watch Arrow (in exchange for me watching Hart of Dixie), and every time a legal scene comes on, I receive a flurry of angry text messages. When I told her about Laurel

becoming the DA

, she nearly had a rage blackout, haha.

 

(In all fairness, she's super critical of all fictitious legal proceedings, but she doesn't like Laurel, so her rants about Arrow are extra hilarious.)

 

LOL! My dad was a surgeon and I used to hate it when he watched ER with me, because he used to nitpick it to death and point out every inaccuracy. But ever since I finished law school, I haven't been able to watch legal shows, because I do the same thing and annoy myself. The only exception for me is The Good Wife, which is so good that I can overlook the way they always go to trial 3 days after being retained by a client.

 

Legally speaking, the most egregious "hell no" moment for me with this show was Laurel being allowed to help prosecute Moira, and even worse, going to visit Moira in jail. That was so many different kinds of unethical. And I know it's entertainment, blah, blah, blah, but I'm still mad at Marc Guggenheim for even letting that make it to screen. 

[foreverevolving]

LOL! My dad was a surgeon and I used to hate it when he watched ER with me, because he used to nitpick it to death and point out every inaccuracy. 

really? i'm no medical expert, but i do know people who worked in big metropolis ER's and they all said that as far as accuracy goes ER always got it right 98% of the time.

[wonderwall]

Legally speaking, the most egregious "hell no" moment for me with this show was Laurel being allowed to help prosecute Moira, and even worse, going to visit Moira in jail. That was so many different kinds of unethical. And I know it's entertainment, blah, blah, blah, but I'm still mad at Marc Guggenheim for even letting that make it to screen. 

I really feel as though they only did this because they wanted Laurel to actually do something. When I saw this (I'm not even a lawyer, I just watch The Good Wife :p) I was literally groaning because there's no way in hell Laurel would've been able to prosecute Moira because of the whole 'conflict of interest' thing. Also, in the end, I was proven right when Laurel helped out Moira's case. But to me it didn't make Laurel look any better, considering the premise was ridiculous. Why is it that all logic/character development/character competency has to fly out the window in order for Laurel to look good?

Edited September 20, 2014 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

Wasn't Laurel supposed to have been "letting the darkness in"? They could have at least made her a villain, but they never brought up the darkness in her again.

For some reason, maybe because of the name Dinah Laurel Lance, AK and MG seem to be completely unwilling to write what KC does best, play rich, spoiled and entitled, so they keep trying to either write around  the flaws (Felicity and Sara as love interest, Sara as Black Canary), or give her big story chunks that end up turning a lot of people off.  In season one, Tommy died trying to save her because she insisted on going to CNRI in spite of the danger, in season 2 Sebastian Blood died, proving her right, then Kate Spencer died (please, not to make Laurel DA), and we're constantly worrying that Sara is going to die so Laurel can be the Black Canary.  When this many people die just so a character can be relevant, it screams that there is a big flaw in that character.  I know people died for Oliver, but that's to progress his character (not to be a killer, not to give in to Slade), not because he needs a new role to justify his existence on the show.

 

Speaking of ER, there were two addiction stories that ran pretty much one after the other.  The first was Carter's addiction to pain pills after his stabbing, and the second was Abby's fall off the wagon into alcoholism again.  Maura Tierney told the producers that she wanted Abby's fall to be realistic and gritty, and it still stands out among addiction stories on TV. It took two years for the fall (because she was a functioning alcoholic) and the recovery, and even after she was clean and sober again, many of her co-workers took a long time to forgive her.

 

In contrast, Carter's addiction lasted a bare handful of episodes. He was doing pills, there was a big intervention scene, he got clean over the summer hiatus and spent his enforced AA meetings doing crossword puzzles.  He pushed Abby into be his sponsor because he didn't want to talk to a stranger (wrong twice because she was female and she was a friend from before) and we were supposed to think it romantic.  Two seasons later he got very drunk and missed work and no one said a word about addiction.  Carter pretty much remained a dry drunk till the end of the season but it was never commented on.

 

I don't know if it was Noah Wyle who didn't want Carter to be tarnished by being a realistic addict, or the show-runners who wouldn't go there, but I think it hurt the show, and that's how I feel about how Laurel is being written. Whether it's MG and AK who won't let Laurel go dark, or KC herself who doesn't want it (that doesn't make sense because it's her acting forte), but how Laurel is being written hurts not only the character but the show itself.

 

This actually concerns Oliver/Laurel, too. How could they be so tone-deaf to expect the audience to root for a pairing that was so completely unappealing in the past? Oliver may have redeemed himself, to an extent, but Laurel was still the person who was delusional enough to overlook his treatment of her, and Oliver still would have probably felt guilty for all that he's done in the past (although we've never really saw that, sadly). There was simply no reason to root for them, and considering Laurel's main role was love interest, the utter failure with the romance damaged her character so much she didn't recover.

It's a pretty awful backstory. But there are worse.  I don't watch Game of Thrones but people tell me that the sibling incest storyline is compelling.

 

But Amell and Cassidy generate anti-chemistry together, unlike just about every other actress he works with. Those two flaws put together should have killed Lauriver a long time ago.

 

Which is why I would really love it if one or two characters on Arrow *would* find Laurel abrasive and irritating. I mean, pretty sure Diggle already does, but he's never said anything to her face. I'm hoping someone -- maybe Roy? He's good at snarky -- becomes the audience's avatar with regards to Laurel in the text of the show, so that as a viewer, I can identify with reactions to Laurel in the text FOR THE FIRST TIME OMG.

Ironically, I think if some characters reacted to Laurel like that (Diggle and Roy I'm counting on you), it would actually make me like Laurel more.  It's the gaslighting of how wonderful and justified Laurel is that makes it worse.

[TanyaKay]

Ironically, I think if some characters reacted to Laurel like that (Diggle and Roy I'm counting on you), it would actually make me like Laurel more.  It's the gaslighting of how wonderful and justified Laurel is that makes it worse.

 

I do agree, if she is mocked for being the way she is, then we will laugh at the character in a more sympathetic way and not want to kill her for being oh so irritating but I don't think Arrow writers of even the cast members have that kind of self effacing sense of humour which is tragic.

[wonderwall]

I'm trying to think of Laurel's flaws and I'm having trouble because in season 1, most of the time she was painted as this perfect person... Personality wise, I don't see how many flaws she has. 

 

Could you guys help me out? What are Laurel's flaws? And I don't mean the mistakes she's made, I mean, when it comes to her characteristics. 

[willpwr]

I'm trying to think of Laurel's flaws and I'm having trouble because in season 1, most of the time she was painted as this perfect person... Personality wise, I don't see how many flaws she has. 

 

Could you guys help me out? What are Laurel's flaws? And I don't mean the mistakes she's made, I mean, when it comes to her characteristics. 

You mean like smug, self-centered, self-righteous, shallow, rude, etc? I think there are certain characteristic that seem to come out even when she's in "good doer" mode which is why I can't buy her as what they're selling.

 

I'm really curious as to KC's contract, in a show like Arrow who ultimately makes decisions? They have to get permission from DC as well as the network executives from my understanding. DC seems pretty happy from what I've seen with Sara as BC even though it's not canon. Is it the network executives or the Arrow EP's pushing for Laurel to be more involved? Based on all the negativity going around lately, depending on her contract I can see a few different scenarios but I believe S3 is make or break for Laurel unless they really want to continue playing chicken with their audience.

Edited September 20, 2014 by willpwr

[wonderwall]

You mean like smug, self-centered, self-righteous, shallow, rude, etc? I think there are certain characteristic that seem to come out even when she's in "good doer" mode which is why I can't buy her as what they're selling.

The problem with this though is that this wasn't the writer's intention was it? I feel as though it's mostly KCs acting that makes Laurel come across this way. You know the writers are going to be super careful not to write Laurel with these flaws in season 3. 

[Starfish35]

I know what you mean, and I'm not sure I can think of any intentional flaws the character has. Most of the perceived flaws IMO come from the way KC plays her, and the way the writers have butchered her characterization.

I also agree with statsgirl - I think having other characters not like her would help her appear more sympathetic. I understand the reasons that the writers might be reluctant to do that, but if somehow there was more self-awareness within the show, more acknowledgement of how she's coming across, it would help. But the writers seem to resist doing that. For example, lack of chemistry aside, an acknowledgement from Oliver and Laurel that they never really knew each other and their past relationship was based on a false image of each other would go a long way toward allowing them to make a fresh start on even rebuilding a friendship. But instead the writers throw all this crap about how Laurel has always known Oliver better than anyone else, and meanwhile we're screaming "are you out of your delusional mind?"

Another thing would be to have her actually have to work to win over Diggle and Roy, as far as being part of the team. And for the love of everything, if they have her giving relationship advice to Felicity about Oliver (or anyone for that matter) I might actually break something.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Starfish35