Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[KirkB]

I'm not actually trying to defend Laurel or anything, but there is probably a difference between finding out your sister hung out/trained/slept with assassins and seeing the physical markings of her training/fighting in person.

Edited April 22, 2014 by KirkB

[Kromm]

Gosh dammit how did Laurel Lance get 100 replies (and growing)!

I guess it just goes to prove the stupider a character is, the more we have to talk about.

[Carrie Ann]

I'm not actually trying to defend Laurel or anything, but there is probably a difference between finding out your sister hung out/trained/slept with assassins and seeing the physical markings of her training/fighting in person.

You're right--I didn't mean that it shouldn't have affected her, but it just goes to the point about how Laurel is unable or doesn't care enough to connect the dots on things. Like, all this really shows me is that Laurel has still never given much thought to what her sister or Oliver went through. If she did, she would have anticipated those scars and while I hope it would hurt her to see them, she shouldn't have been surprised.

[quarks]

I'm not actually trying to defend Laurel or anything, but there is probably a difference between finding out your sister hung out/trained/slept with assassins and seeing the physical markings of her training/fighting in person.

 

I'm sure there's a huge difference, which means that this is yet another place where the writers did Laurel a disservice. Quick rewrite:

Laurel enters as Sara is dressing.  She stops in dismay. Camera turns to her and we see her swallow several times.

Sara: Laurel?

Laurel, trying to recover:  Sorry - it's just, I knew you had been through stuff, but I never knew it was so bad. And --

Laurel steps forward. Her eyes narrow. 

Laurel: Sara - were those bullet wounds?

Oliver: Hi everyone!

#

Nicely reminds the audience that Laurel knows something but not everything, and as a bonus sets up the ability for Laurel to recognize things like bullet hole wounds if they bring her in as Black Canary or in some other role later where she needs to be able to recognize stuff like that.

[KirkB]

Here I go again. Is it ALL on Laurel? What I mean is, she has seen Oliver naked since he got back from the island. Even though she didn't know he was the Arrow at the time she knew he had been through a lot of stuff and had witnessed some of the aftereffects first hand. But it doesn't seem like Oliver or Sara are too big on sharing. Oliver only tells the others about specific events on the island as they become relevant to the plot. There are still things he hasn't told Felicity and Diggle, or Sarah, and Sarah has shown there are still things (Nyssa for example) she hasn't told Oliver. So while you're right Laurel hasn't asked (as far as we know) for many details from Sarah or Oliver, they haven't exactly been eager to offer them on their own either. Even if Laurel did try, which I will grant she doesn't seem eager to do, Sarah would probably just shrug it off or go running to help Oliver.

Edited April 22, 2014 by KirkB

[quarks]

KirkB, that's true, and I don't think it's all on Laurel. Sara and Oliver are very definitely no saints; in fact that's one reason I don't want Laurel back with Oliver - frankly, she deserves better.   My issue is that the scene played out to suggest that this is the first time it's ever occurred to Laurel that something might have happened to her sister, when previous episodes suggested otherwise. It led to the sense that Laurel had forgotten that her sister probably went through hell.

And it's just another example of a case where a small tweak in writing would have made the character more sympathetic/likeable. I keep seeing a number of these cases, which I find bewildering - if the intent is still to keep Laurel as the leading lady/doomed love of Oliver Queen, then I would think that the show would be trying to keep Laurel either consistent or likeable; preferably both. 

[Sakura12]

I know Oliver and Sara are not big on sharing what happened to them (which would also be a big indicator that it wasn't good). It doesn't seem like Laurel even asked or thought that her sister may have gone through the same hell Oliver has. She's a Lawyer it's her job to ask questions and she has none of either of them after they disappeared for over 5 years? Even if Sara and/or Oliver deflect the questions or say nothing, that at least showed me Laurel cared enough to ask. 

But this show really isn't big on actual character development. Their characters just do things because reasons and it's up to the audience to make up excuses for them. 

Storylines are a big part of shows, but IMO it's the characters that give a show staying power. Look at Firefly, that show ended in 2001 and it's still talked about and still loved. It's not because it had amazing storylines or great action scenes, it was because of the characters. 

[writersblock51]

That's exactly the feeling I've had about Laurel.  In her defense, even "dark" blackmailers need hugs...

The first character who comes to mind is Lauren Reed from Alias ( The fans HATED her.  She was set up in all the wrong ways - unlikeable, powerful daddy, boyfriend stealer, snooty to the heroine - and so they gave up and made her into a villain.  She then got to make out with David Anders and be Evil McEvilPants for an arc, so it couldn't have been that bad. 

One thing I've noticed is that fans have had more influence on the development and progression of shows in recent years; I feel that the Alias case was a result of vocal fan feedback through sites like TWoP.  Earlier shows, like Buffy would probably have been very different in such a climate; Riley wasn't popular, sure. But I don't think he was meant to stick around.  Dawn, on the other hand, would have been 86'd really early on because she started out so annoying. 

This is why I'm really trying to be measured about my criticisms of the Laurel character.  It's been very easy for fans to contribute to an overall feeling of loathing for a particular character (and those characters tend to be female - a troubling symptom), and the reaction to nix them is much faster now than before.  I think it's great for fans to have input on shows, but the shows should also be allowed to develop creatively lest all good showrunners get discouraged and quit because they can't write their shows.

As to whether the Arrow people will do it - the problem is that they're trapped by canon.  And so to get rid of Laurel permanently would mean having to take a pretty big stand and throw canon out the window on that.  I'm not sure if they will take that risk so boldly.

And here is where I get on my Comic Canon Soapbox.

Arrow has created, IMO, an alternate universe.  They have selectively taken parts of comic canon and used them in sync but there are a lot more examples of how they tweaked people, relationships and circumstances to suit this particular Arrow Universe.

The only thing Canon about Laurel is her name.  Everything else (except for running a flower shop) that made Dinah Lance the Black Canary has pretty much been given to Sara.  And Sara wasn't in the comics.  The show clearly created their own take on Black Canary.  I'd even go so far to say that if Sara's middle name is Dinah, Laurel would have 0 ties to the comics.  The show created this entire backstory and present arc for Sara as BC.  They chose to spend a big chunk of the season on her.  Why would they do this to only say 'Canon' and puish Laurel into a role that doesn't fit her.

One of my biggest peeves with the show (writers and EPs) is that they fall back on Canon to justify what I consider a bad casting choice, made worse by inconsistent and terrible writing.  And it started with the pilot: Sara was introduced into the Lance family and running off with Oliver.  If Sara had never been introduced, the show would be dealing with an actress who I don't think is comfortable in the role, more so this season than last.  And the writers certainly haven't done her any favors.

Canon on this show would mean that Team Arrow is Laurel working with Oliver, with Roy as the younger sidekick.  No Thea, Malcom, Felicity, Diggle or Walter.  Given the popularity of Team Arrow, I can't imagine what the show would look like without them. 

[Sakura12]

I also count Arrow as an alternate universe telling of Green Arrow and in this one Dinah Drake Lance never became Black Canary, her presumed dead youngest daughter Sara did. Even with that the next Canary should be younger than the original to keep the fight going longer, so I would take Sara training Sin or even Sara's future daughter taking up the role. 

They haven't given Sara a flower shop but they have shown she has advanced knowledge of plants and flowers since she made that drug that counteracts Ivo's truth serum out of them. So they made it possible for her to work in or own a flower shop if she wants too. 

Laurel only has the name to tie her to the character. You have to wonder why the writers brought in Sara as the Canary. Why bring in a new character give her all the traits of comic Black Canary, then get rid of her so they can give the canon character the same role? Sara wasn't needed to tell Laurel's story, in fact it would've been far more interesting for Laurel to find her own reasons for becoming a vigilante, not my little sister became awesome, so I'll become awesome after she dies. 

[BkWurm1]

in fact it would've been far more interesting for Laurel to find her own reasons for becoming a vigilante, not my little sister became awesome, so I'll become awesome after she dies.

 

If Laurel does end up being BC I can only hope she does it because she thinks her little sister was so awesome.  I'd be more likely to believe she takes up the name so she can get close to Oliver.  Hey it worked for Sara.

[jellysalmon]

My sister watches this show and I've caught an episode or two here and there. It took her about 10 minutes of explaining and 2 episodes for me to understand what was happening in the Lance family. I'm so used to Dinah=BC that it was hard for my brain to get used to these other ones running around. Has there been any indication from the creators why they made the Lance family so different while most everyone else is the same?

[BkWurm1]

Good question, one I suspect even the showrunners won't answer until the show is long over.  Right now anything they say is all about the spin, though I can't tell what the end game is going to be.  They might still plan on Laurel Lance becoming the BC though how and even more importantly, why they would at this point is beyond me.

 

 In the beginning I fully believe the showrunners were just trying to be clever by teasing a Lance in the first episode as the wronged GF hoping to get people to say who is Laurel only to reveal that she does have the right name at the end of the episode.  (or was it episode 2?  I forget)  In those early season 1 episodes they even showed Katie Cassidy using some nice self defense moves.  But in my opinion and I thought in the opinion of the show-runners, the character of Laurel Lance wasn't working .  Her chemistry with Oliver was awful.  So awful that three episodes in viewers looking for a love interest for Oliver grabbed onto an character originally written as a one off appearance.  I know I did.   

 

By the end of the first season I thought the show runners (who now had made the one time IT girl a regular) had abandoned their original plans for Laurel.  This is when Sara as BC was plotted out.  I honestly thought they were reacting to a mistake in casting/writing by going their own way and I applauded them.  We barely saw Laurel in the first half of season 2 and I didn't miss her at all.  Sara was introduced and with emotional weight and believable backstory.  She looks and acts the part.  But she doesn't (as far as I know) have the right name.

 

Then the second half of the show kicked in and its all about Laurel's "journey" which amounted to being back exactly where she had started.  I have no idea where they are going with the character and the uncertainty makes watching it a lot less interesting. 

 

So yeah, their initial intentions seemed clear.  Over the summer they said they were going to bring on an early version of BC and now they've said this season we are seeing the origin of Canary but even though Sara is BC in all but first name and they just spent an entire season setting up her backstory as a credible BC, there is still concern the show runners are going to swoop in and pass off the name to her older sister.  Who has no training.  Who has not been shown to even have mental toughness.  But she has a name, so what does logic matter? 

Edited April 23, 2014 by BkWurm1

[statsgirl]

What interests me about Laurel is the disconnect between what they tell us about her, and what they show.

 

From Seeing Red:

Laurel:  I have to go help Sara with her trigonometry.

Oliver:  I don't even know what that is.

Laurel :You're so cute.

 

Aside from wondering why Sara would even be taking trigonometry since she's been portrayed as not being the academic type, I don't understand Laurel in this scene.  She's been presented as smart and focused but I can't imagine Anaything that would be a bigger turn-off to a character like that than having Oliver say "I don't even know what trigonometry is."  (One of the things that makes Benedict Cumberbatch so sexy as Sherlock is his brain.)  So is what attracts Laurel to Oliver his body?  Would that be enough to put up with his behaviour?  Because if not, then it's his money and that makes her a gold-digger.

 

Not to mention that she still doesn't seem to know that he's cheating on her.

 

What's the reason for writing her this way?  It certainly doesn't make it any easier to make her the Black Canary.

Edited April 27, 2014 by statsgirl

[Sakura12]

They never really said if Sara was an academic or not. All we know is she liked to party, that doesn't make her dumb.

 

However I agree that showing us that Oliver's stupid doesn't help us see why Laurel's with him. Pre-island Oliver doesn't seem like much of a catch besides having money. That once again shows me that the writers really don't think that hard about how they write Laurel's storylines. She was once again an afterthought to that plot. 

[statsgirl]

When Sara came home from college before the ill-fated boat trip, it seemed like Quentin was expecting to hear that she had come home because she was failing, not just to have a weekend off.  Between pushing Laurel into either law school or academia like her mother, I just got the impression that Laurel was the shining academic light of the Lance family. Not that Sara wasn't smart, just that she wasn't academically oriented like Laurel.  Even having to go home to help Sara with her trig makes it appear that Laurel is the smart one in the family.

 

 

Pre-island Oliver doesn't seem like much of a catch besides having money.

He really doesn't. I can understand why they would want to do that, to highlight the chance in him, but I can't understand why Laurel would want to move in with and marry him.  I can see Sara wanting to have fun and party with him, but not Laurel's motivation.

Edited April 27, 2014 by statsgirl

[KirkB]

People are often attracted to or fall in love with people who are wrong for them or have nothing more to offer them in a relationship except perhaps money or even just really good sex. Pre island Oliver was handsome and rich. Laurel can't really be faulted for who she falls in love with, and that's bound to basically blind her to his faults, of which there were many.

 

I think most shows, or movies for that matter, based on a book or comic are 'alternate universe' versions. Which is why I was never really bothered by the liberties Smallville took with Superman. It was that show's version of an existing story, not a shot by shot, line by line retelling of the exact same stories. I feel the same way about Walking Dead. On topic, just because Laurel was Black Canary in the comics doesn't mean she is or ever will be on the show.

[Carrie Ann]

This is really nitpicky, but I took Trig as a sophomore in high school. Sara was taking it in college, so my guess is that she was taking it because she never got that far in math in high school. So, to me, that doesn't signal that she was very academically focused. But that said, I suppose she could have been taking an Advanced Trig course (which is just... calculus? Math people, help me out), which she would have to do if she were on a math/physics/engineering path.

 

Eeek, back on topic. I agree that Laurel's flashback characterization does her NO favors. She comes across as willfully blind to Oliver's true character and the cracks in their relationship. In the five years she had to reflect, you might think she'd have come to some painful realizations about that. But instead, she just took that time to get REAL bitter. That's sort of interesting, from a villain origin story perspective, but not appealing in a heroine. 

[Sakura12]

The flashback was from 7 years ago Sara would've been 18 so she still could've been senior in high school depending on when that flashback happened. She was 19 when the Gambit went down.

 

I guess that was supposed to show us Laurel's book smart but completely dumb when it came to Oliver.  

[writersblock51]

I guess that was supposed to show us Laurel's book smart but completely dumb when it came to Oliver.  

 

That's the least of her problems.  I also think it could be one of the more relatable characteristics but - after seeing the sister swapping, the Blackmail Lawyer after being an inept lawyer, her crucible being minimal compared to what others on the show have and are going through - any appeal she may have had got lost.

[FireFoxy]

I actually feel bad for KC. Olicity/Felicity fans were being extra this week on Twitter. I love Felicity and Olicity but come on people! I wish they would turn Laurel evil. I think KC would totally pull that off.

[quarks]

I have to agree that Cassidy got a raw deal out of this - she's not getting what she was promised from the role, and I think her excitement about that was genuine; the writers keep bouncing her all over the place and keep giving her scenes that don't make sense, or the writers fail to give the tiny little dialogue tweaks that could make the character somewhat sympathetic. 

 

I'm all in favor of letting Laurel go evil - it would give the character something to do. In fact I assumed that's where they were taking the character for at least a season or two - let her go evil, and then let her reform.  But apparently not.

[statsgirl]

Letting Laurel go evil would be the solution to so many problems.     They wouldn't need to keep coming up with ways to write her into the show because she would be working with the bad guys and naturally part of the stories, they wouldn't have to keep forcing her chemistry with Amell, and she could start to do the physical parts of being a super without being in competition with Caity Lotz. The question is, do the producers have enough of an objective view of their show to do it, or are they too in love with KC? 

 

 

People are often attracted to or fall in love with people who are wrong for them or have nothing more to offer them in a relationship except perhaps money or even just really good sex.

You don't really fall in love with money, that's a decision you make to go after this person who has it.  Maybe you can fall in love with really good sex, I dunno.  Oliver was so selfish in the flashbacks, it's hard to believe the sex could have been that good.

 

It's not that Laurel and Oliver are wrong for each other (which they are), it's that it's such a stretch for me to see Laurel as actually being in love with Oliver even in the flashbacks.  She's presented as someone smart and ambitious and middle-class; he's a rich boy who keeps getting kicked out of schools and is a douche.  Did she even know he cheated on her?  I'm guessing she had to have a clue because she went to extraordinary lengths to keep Sara away from him so she must have had an inkling he wouldn't be faithful to her.

 

I have the impression that Oliver liked Laurel because she was pretty and smart and available, and that Laurel liked Oliver because she had made a life plan for herself, he fit into it real good, and she wasn't going to let anything keep her from getting what she wanted..

[writersblock51]

I don't question Katie Cassidy's enthusiasm for the role, especially for when the show started.  I tihnk the role was in a deep hole for a current day relationship with Returned Oliver because of the Sara issue.  So, as an actress, KC had to manage a bunch of emotions right off the bat.  And I don't think she did a good job of it.  For me, I had a two-fold problem with Laurel in Season 1: I didn't like how the character was being written and I didn't think KC did a good job at all.  And I didn't buy her and Oliver as a couple, then or now.  Even the scenes she had with Tommy and Quentin made me wonder just how much experience she'd had.  I hadn't heard of her before "Arrow." 

 

Season 2, her change in her appearance and the inconsistent writing, were challenges.  But her acting did not improve, IMO. 

 

So my current problems with Laurel go beyond the writing - I really don't think KC is a good fit for the role.  Maybe if Laurel went dark?  Many of you seem to think it  would be better, so I'm willing to give that a shot but I don't think the show will go in that direction.

 

Instead, she's getting shoehorned into situations that she has no business being in.  And the projections for her future are not only not interesting to me - they are enough to turn me off of the show.   Her recent interview didn't make me more interested in the show, either.

[BkWurm1]

In season one I think KC played Laurel ok if Laurel was just dealing with the mess of an ex that slept with her sister (and was the reason she was dead) that after five years came back from the dead. You know, just the same old stuff.

 

 The thing is, she was supposed to also somehow make the audience think she and a candidate for worst boyfriend ever (only ex's that could be criminally prosecuted would be worse) should get back together not just for closure but cause they were a one true pair.  No, that didn't come across and really, should it?  That's one of the true problems.  

[Sakura12]

I'm beginning to think Sara's low self esteem has nothing to do with what she's been through. But from growing up with Laurel. 

 

WTF Laurel, you don't just come into some else's place, dismiss their teammates and friends and start demanding the lead spot on the team. You gave one piece of information, come back when you have a few more then we'll see if you are part of the team. Plus you have no useful skills for what they were about too do that's why you couldn't go. 

 

Sara who lived with assassins for past few years was nice and respectful to Oliver's team and became friends with them on her own. Even if she acted like Laurel did she has skills that can help them. But that's not how she chose to act. When Felicity felt left out she noticed, she didn't get mad or pissy or demand that Felicity look up to her. She tried to help her and gave her some tips on defending herself. Then we also had Sara search and find the daughter of guy she knew for about 5 minutes and took care of her. That's the Black Canary. 

 

Not some self centered person that thinks the world should revolve around them. From the way Laurel treats Felicity and Diggle it makes it seem like she thinks they are beneath her because they are a secretary and a driver. 

Edited May 1, 2014 by Sakura12

[quarks]

To be fair, pretty much everyone we've met from the League of Assassins has had lovely manners right up until they start killing people. I think they get trained in polite behavior in between scarf training classes.

 

That said, I found that whole setup really odd. The only people who have come into the Arrow Cave and been rude to people there so far have been Helena, who was established as a nutcase killer, and Slade, who was just there to attack everybody and steal something, not to win friends and influence people. Otherwise, Sara, Barry and Roy were all perfectly friendly. Oliver has been a complete jerk, but even there, Oliver wasn't rude to Sara or Roy, and he was mostly a complete jerk to Barry because he (Oliver) was mad that no one had consulted him before bringing Barry in.  That wasn't the issue here. And although Oliver has definitely argued with everyone in the Arrow Cave before, he usually hasn't been that dismissive - and when he's done the whole "I need to keep you safe" bit the others have argued back in their own defense. Felicity said that if Oliver was staying, she was staying; Sara, Helena and Roy all pointed out that they can defend themselves. None of them pulled the "you're risking the others, not me!" bit. They all focused on how Oliver was treating them which made sense.

 

I don't know. Maybe Laurel was rude because she was hurt and frustrated that Oliver hadn't let her into his secret/life before - but then why not bring that up? Or maybe she thought she really could help - in which case, why say that she would just hang out with a radio and be the eyes and ears - or if that was the plan, why not make a more logical argument: "Oliver. It's dangerous - you need as many people to help you as you can."  Or bring up her skills? Something.

 

And maybe Oliver was rude in return because he was in pain, was ticked that it took Laurel so long to come to the point earlier, and because of how she dismissed Team Arrow.

 

BTW, I've seen comments here and elsewhere that said it's great that the show slowed down and let Laurel and Oliver talk about Tommy and the way Oliver lied to her. I don't exactly disagree with that - I think it was an important conversation to have - but I still don't like the way it played out.  Have Laurel give the information about Sebastian FIRST, have Oliver get ready to go out and face Sebastian, but then have Laurel stop him just as he's heading out:  "Tommy. Tommy knew about you, didn't he?"  Then have her stop for a moment and swallow.  "I'm sorry, it's a bad time." THEN have Oliver and Laurel discuss this.

 

Because otherwise, what I'm seeing here is two out of three episodes where Laurel has something important to say and yet wastes her time in dramatic speeches even when the other person is busy (two episodes ago) or in severe pain, mourning the loss of his mother, suicidal, AND busy (this episode.) It makes her less likeable.

 

And just as she started out this episode actually doing stuff and being likeable and proactive, too. I liked her interactions with Sebastian and Thea.  I also liked that Laurel figured out that Felicity and Diggle work for Oliver - yeah, it's pretty obvious, but given that Laurel earlier couldn't recognize Oliver's chin, it was a nice touch. I was just hitting the point where I figured I could cheer for her...and then.

[quarks]

but right now she just is being forced into the role of some how trying to come off as Ollie's conscience or moral compass.

 

 

Jester said this over in the episode thread and I think it points to a key issue:

 

I liked Laurel in her scene with Sebastian because at that point, she was the only character who could easily walk into Sebastian's office with a valid excuse and plant a bug on him.  

 

But Laurel isn't the only character who can serve as Oliver's conscience/moral compass.  Diggle, Felicity and Thea are already doing that.  For that matter, even the bad guys have managed to serve as Oliver's moral compass -  both Isabel and Sebastian have made some very valid points, as did Malcolm last year and Helena and Slade this year. So when Laurel is pushed into that role, she feels superfluous - especially since we've already had Diggle, Felicity and Thea playing that role in this episode.

 

The same goes when Laurel is brought into a fight scene. She isn't the only person who can fight next to Oliver - the show has Diggle, Sara and Roy for that. She isn't the only person who can be rescued - in fact her frequent need to be rescued was a huge part of the problem with her character last season - but Oliver can also rescue any of the other characters, random people on the street, and even the entire city; that's the point of the show. She served to distract the bad guy so Oliver could shoot an exploding arrow, but the show could come up with any number of ways to distract the bad guy at that point.

 

To me, just as the show was starting to make her relevant again, it made her superfluous, again. Sigh.

[statsgirl]

 

I'm beginning to think Sara's low self esteem has nothing to do with what she's been through. But from growing up with Laurel....

From the way Laurel treats Felicity and Diggle it makes it seem like she thinks they are beneath her because they are a secretary and a driver.

 

I had the same thought.

 

But it's not just Diggle and Felicity. Laurel also treated her mother when she blamed Dinah for leaving her, and she was pretty nasty with her father at the beginning too. And from the flashback before the boat trip, it looked like Sara was always treated as the family screw-up and Laurel the amazing child wonder.

 

If they would just let Laurel be a self-absorbed and selfish person, not bothering with people she thinks aren't good enough for her to pay attention to (I can see her as a Mean Girl) and refusing to pay attention to anything that doesn't fit her world-view, it would fit the Arrow universe that they've created very well.  Bonus, it would also play to Katie Cassidy's acting strengths.

 

 

 

So when Laurel is pushed into that role, she feels superfluous - especially since we've already had Diggle, Felicity and Thea playing that role in this episode.

The same goes when Laurel is brought into a fight scene.

I don't think those scenes make Laurel superfluous, I worry that the producers are setting up Laurel to replace those other characters.

 

She probably won't replace Diggle as Oliver's bodyguard or Felicity as his hacker, but she can be written to replace them as his Voice of Reason or Person He Leans On.  The threat is already there that she's going to replace Sara as the Black Canary.

[quarks]

This episode and that trailer do seem to have been written to lead either to Laurel's death in the season finale (by propping her up) or to having her join Team Arrow as Oliver's partner/the Black Canary, true.

[KirkB]

Oh, I definitely think they're gearing up for something. It's probably the latter, though I hope it's the former. Not that I want Laurel to die, I don't hate her I just don't particularly like her, but it would certainly be dramatic. Though I'm not sure Oliver could handle losing his dad, Tommy, his Mom and then Laurel in such a short amount of time. He'd completely self destruct and might not be able to come back from it.

[statsgirl]

It would be a lot for Oliver to take, although he lost his father 7 years ago and Tommy last year. But on the plus side, it would give him a clean slate with respect to the past. He'd still have to take care of Thea, probably fighting Malcolm for her, but a huge burden of the past would be lifted from him, and he could start to truly re-make himself as the character Diggle and Felicity know on his hero's journey, not the frat boy douche boyfriend of Laurel..

[KirkB]

He had the baby 7 years ago, he lost his father 5 years ago, but your point still stands. Maybe it would be...well, not good for Oliver exactly, but it might give him a chance to really start over and become Green Arrow for real.

[statsgirl]

His father died in the pilot, which was over 6 years ago now, but that's me being really picky.  I think what he went through on the island would have been as traumatic as seeing his father die, if not more. 

[KirkB]

You're right. Sorry. I have a habit of being picky too.

 

For those of you who really hate Laurel and want her either gone or dead, a question. Is the biggest problem the casting or writing? What I mean is, do you think Katie Cassidy does a terrible job and the role would have been better or at least more tolerable in any other actors hands, or is their grasp of Laurel the character so flawed no one could do the role justice?

Edited May 2, 2014 by KirkB

[bluebonnet]

You're right. Sorry. I have a habit of being picky too.

 

For those of you who really hate Laurel and want her either gone or dead, a question. Is the biggest problem the casting or writing? What I mean is, do you think Katie Cassidy does a terrible job and the role would have been better or at least more tolerable in any other actors hands, or is their grasp of Laurel the character so flawed no one could do the role justice?

I'm not a fan of Katie Cassidy.  However, I don't watch CW shows in order to see amazing talent.  I go in knowing that the cast will include mostly sub-par actors, and that's fine.  The network is pretty straightforward with the types of shows and actors it wants.  Katie Cassidy is unable to emote, which makes it a bit more difficult to connect with her, but again, I don't expect awesome talent on the CW.  The biggest drawback with KC is that she has zero chemistry with any cast member.

 

I could look past most of that if the writing were consistent.  There is never the feeling that the writers have a plan with Laurel.  They seem to go well out of the way to include her in a scene without any clear reason why she's there.  They give her dialogue that completely contradicts previous scenes.  As an example, this last episode included Laurel mentioning that she knew Oliver better than anyone, knew him down to his bones.  That dialogue was completely unearned because Laurel and Oliver barely have scenes together and when they do, it's often to show the audience just how little Laurel knows Olly.  I mean, she didn't know that he had an affair with at least two other women (one her sister, the other the mother of his child), she didn't know that he was the Arrow.  She didn't even suspect these things.  There was no legitimate build up to this.  I feel like I can take every single 'big' scene of hers and describe just how unearned and contradictory it is, which is problematic when the showrunners insist in interviews that Laurel is something other than what viewers are seeing.  She's completely unbelievable as a character.

 

As a comparison, I tend to find a lot of Thea dialogue to be annoying.  However, it's believable because it's consistent.  It was annoying when she was having a tantrum and wouldn't sign the documents.  But they've shown Thea to be a sensitive person who, while maturing, is still sort of the little rich princess who wants to get her way.  She has growth, but it's not so fast as to be unbelievable. 

 

Consistency and an appearance of having a clear plan with Laurel would go a long way.  It might not help the lack of chemistry she has with the cast.  Oliver and Laurel often look like they are hugging piles of poop when they are touching.  Compare her hug with Oliver to Felicity and Diggle's scene where they were encouraging him to take a stand.  It's miles apart.  I buy Oliver's connection with Felicity and Diggle.  I still have no idea why the writers insist on Olly and Laurel having a connection.  A large part of that is chemistry, but I think it could be mitigated with some halfway decent writing.  After two seasons, I should be able to define their connection other than "oh, Oliver had a pic of her on the island and Laurel used to be his gf or something."  Ugh, the writers even ruined it when they made a point of telling the audience that Sarah was the one originally interested in Oliver and Laurel was just the big mean sister who swooped in.  Why would they do that while also trying to sell us Oliver and Laurel?  

Edited May 2, 2014 by SystemRemote

[quarks]

KirkB, I think it's a combination of both.

 

Katie Cassidy is probably not going to be given any acting awards. But when she's given a scene where she has a clear goal and a reason to be there, where everything makes sense for her character, she's fine - as in her scene with Sebastian. Charming, likeable, believable.

 

Give her a scene where she has to deliver dialogue that doesn't make sense or is completely contradicted by the plot/show, and she falters. The main example here was the "I know you better than anyone," a statement flat out contradicted by the rest of the show and even that very scene, where Laurel has just confirmed that two people not named Laurel have been working side by side on a nearly daily/nightly basis with him. They had to tell her that Oliver was suicidal - something that she would have known before they did if she really did know him better than anyone. Even fanwanking that Laurel is trying to delude herself here, the statement still makes no sense in the context of the scene, and Cassidy couldn't pull it off.

 

Caity Lotz, also not the strongest actress, could have delivered that line convincingly because it makes sense for Sara.  Susanna Thompson, a stronger actress, could have pulled it off because she's been able to pull off lines and even plots that make no sense (hi, Mayor).  So here it's a combination of both issues, and it's yet another example in a long, long, long list where the script has done Laurel no favors, making me wonder if there's a disconnect between the showrunners and some of the screenwriters.

[Danny Franks]

My view is that the character of Laurel has been mishandled right from the off.

 

In the pilot, she told Oliver she hated him, and then forgave him for no reason that we saw, and then he told her to leave him alone. And then she forgave him again in the next episode. And then he disappointed her by being drunk and embarrassing after she'd advised him to show his mother who he was as a man. And then she forgave him again. And then she kissed him and acknowledged she was still attracted to him. A solution to which, she decided, was to date his best friend who had a lot of Oliver-like qualities. By that point, I'd had enough of her, and thinks just kept going downhill.

 

But Katie Cassidy's acting hasn't helped, because she's just completely blah in the role. Her chemistry with Stephen Amell is very poor, and comes across as awkward and forced at the best of times. Her line readings are flat and her emotional range rarely strays beyond, 'mildly perturbed'. The combination of this and the inexplicable characterisation she's been given, as well as the fact that she has been so tangential to everything of relevance on the show, have meant that most scenes she's in bring the show crashing to a halt. Every time she's on screen, my enthusiasm wanes and I start getting distracted by pretty much anything. She's like the female Agent Coulson.

 

I feel bad for Cassidy, because if the character did make more sense, and if it was more in the wheelhouse that she's comfortable in, she might be doing a decent job. But it seems like everything about Laurel is designed to make people dislike her, and I do not get why any writer would think that is something desirable in a leading lady.

[calliope1975]

For those of you who really hate Laurel and want her either gone or dead, a question. Is the biggest problem the casting or writing?

 

 

It's both for me. I liked KC on Supernatural, but the character was mishandled from the beginning. I think it's gotten worse, especially this season. TPTB isolated Laurel for the most part, and now trying to integrate her with the rest of the cast is annoying. And they're not doing it well. Don't have this divisive character be rude and dismissive of two of the most popular characters on the show. It doesn't endear her to me. 

 

Overall, everything they've tried with Laurel hasn't worked and KC's acting hasn't helped. At this point, I'm tired of them trying; I just want her gone. Increasing her role will probably make me stop watching - something I don't know if I've ever done over one character before. But she's that much of a joy suck for me. 

[ArctisTor]

Gosh dammit how did Laurel Lance get 100 replies (and growing)!

I guess it just goes to prove the stupider a character is, the more we have to talk about.

I think it's just astonishing how much the writers/EPs can screw the pooch on a character that is - or was - the female lead.  While do well to remarkably well with regard to a lot of the rest of the series.  How did they get this one thing so wrong and seem unable to fix it?  Or even seem aware how badly it's broken?  I agree with the disconnect there seems to be between the audience and EPs. Part of me wants to believe they're just blowing a lot of hot air in the press because they're unwilling to acknowledge how embarrassingly they messed up the female lead's arc.  Wouldn't be the first time EPs have lied like crazy to save face in some way, but ... Laurel's arc is still a mess.  Seems like they haven't even tried to fix it?

 

I just have no clue at all what they're playing at.  Even if Sara is killed off or resigns from the Black Canary role for some reason all so Laurel can take up the mantle?  Laurel's BC is going to be compared to Sara's BC every step of the way, especially at the beginning.  The writers/EPs have given us almost no assurance they can pull the transition off without Laurel's BC perpetually coming off like some really paltry substitute.

 

Like... there are times I forget some of those responsible for that atrocious "Green Lantern" movie also have creative positions in "Arrow", yet there are other times....?

[KirkB]

IF they are planning to turn Laurel into the Black Canary, they seem to be going about it entirely the wrong way. They would be basing her on the performance of an actress who many (at least here) seem to think it limited at best, give her little screen time, often incoherent characterization, no background whatsoever to indicate even the slightest predilection for vigilantism (though that one hardly counts since the same was true of Oliver) and worst of all have her following in the footsteps of her sister. Who makes a farinteresting character, is played by a better actress, and let's face it, fills out that suit a lot better than she ever will. At the very least, if they wanted her to be the Black Canary they shouldn't have made Sara BC first

Edited May 2, 2014 by KirkB

[statsgirl]

I'm currently working on the theory that they have changed their game plan to keep Sara as the Black Canary and have Laurel turn into the Red Arrow, since Roy is going to be Arsenal.  It makes Sara fans happy and explains the promo pictures of Laurel shooting an arrow, and why she ran home from the Cave to change her blue coat for a bright red one before hunting down Oliver.  (How did she find him?  Does she have him GPS'd?) 

 

 

For those of you who really hate Laurel and want her either gone or dead, a question. Is the biggest problem the casting or writing?

Ditto to every comment above.

 

In addition, she spoils the episodes she's in by a combination of bringing the action to a screeching halt whenever she has a scene, and forcing the storytelling into convolutions to accommodate the character.  The storylines they create for her take time away from characters I'm more interested in; the A stories she's involved in make her the special snowflake of the show.

 

I didn't mind her so much when she was peripheral to the show, I can enjoy it around her. But when she comes into the Arrow Cave, pushes Diggle and Felicity aside and claims Oliver because she's his true soul mate -- then I wonder why I'm watching.

[BkWurm1]

Every time she's on screen, my enthusiasm wanes and I start getting distracted by pretty much anything. She's like the female Agent Coulson.

 

What?  Agent Coulson closely followed by Fitz and Simmons is the best part of that show.  It's Sky and Ward that put me to sleep (well until Ward went evil and now I rather like him, but the actress cast for Sky was badly, badly chosen.)   So my tie in to Arrow is yes, Laurel might be redeemed if she went evil or better yet, was revealed as evil all the time and then if they wanted they could break the character down completely and bring her back up and let her make better choices this time.

 

I really think this is what the show runners think they did with Laurel's addiction story.  IMO they think she has been reborn but the problem is that not only did her addiction storyline not convince me that she actually thinks she really had a problem (supported by the fact that all she had to do was hit AA meetings for a few weeks and her life is completely handed back to her but now with cool stuff like blackmail and ignoring basic law! ) And she knows the shows big secret!  And knows Oliver soooo much better than his driver and secretary (bah, they are just the help)   And she's the bestest at EVERYTHING!    

 

If they planned on a reboot to Laurel's character they did a piss poor job in making her likable when she came back on line.

 

IF they are planning to turn Laurel into the Black Canary, they seem to be going about it entirely the wrong way.

 

Someone. half joking, over on TWoP made the suggestion that maybe instead of Black Canary the show is planning its own twist on the mythology and will make her Red Arrow.  It would explain the unexpected pimping of Laurel's out nowhere archery skills that we saw in the promo for next week's episode. 

 

Roy should have been Red Arrow and then move on to Arsenal but they seem to have pushed him mentally right to the role of Arsenal.  Thea could still be Speedy, the kid sidekick.  And as Red Arrow, Laurel could be the most bestest and closest partner ever to Olliekins. 

 

I wish I could dismiss it as a crazy idea but it would solve TPTB's problem for now.  BC could keep being Sara (until years down the line she dies or steps aside and Laurel takes over) and Laurel can still become SuperSpeshul!  The whole arrow shooting scene supports Laurel as Red Arrow way more than it does BLack Canary since Canary doesn't use arrows, right? 

 

It's going to be all Laurel, all the time.  At the DA's office, at the police department, out investigating bad guys, in the new Arrowlair training, and wearing skimpy clothes and being smarter than anybody and fixing Oliver with her healing vajaja.

 

And now I've made myself sick. 

 

***Edited to add I should have refreshed my page sooner. Then I would have noticed that Stargirl brought the idea over too.

I'm currently working on the theory that they have changed their game plan to keep Sara as the Black Canary and have Laurel turn into the Red Arrow,

 

Edited May 2, 2014 by BkWurm1

[BumpSetSpike]

 

 

It's going to be all Laurel, all the time.  At the DA's office, at the police department, out investigating bad guys, in the new Arrowlair training, and wearing skimpy clothes and being smarter than anybody and fixing Oliver with her healing vajaja.

And now I've made myself sick.

 

Ugh... just the thought of her having that much involvement makes me ill.

 

I'm not of the camp to stop watching Arrow after this season, but if they do put her into a heavier role like this over S3, I'm not sure how good the show will end up being.  

 

Watching Amell's "acting" in that scene in the lair with Laurel was so painful as it was, most of their scenes are (except for the one where he got to yell at her in the hallway - I swear he was taking out his agression during that one).   Having her more integrated in every aspect of Oliver's life just will kill this show.

[catrox14]

 

Watching Amell's "acting" in that scene in the lair with Laurel was so painful as it was, most of their scenes are (except for the one where he got to yell at her in the hallway - I swear he was taking out his agression during that one).   Having her more integrated in every aspect of Oliver's life just will kill this show.

 

Amell saves every scene he has with Laurel. But gods, it's like Cassidy is just not giving him anything to play off of.  Compare that with the earlier scene with Felicity where she is , in essence, giving him the same pep talk, that difference in quality and interplay is staggering.

[Zalyn]

Someone. half joking, over on TWoP made the suggestion that maybe instead of Black Canary the show is planning its own twist on the mythology and will make her Red Arrow.  It would explain the unexpected pimping of Laurel's out nowhere archery skills that we saw in the promo for next week's episode. 

 

Roy should have been Red Arrow and then move on to Arsenal but they seem to have pushed him mentally right to the role of Arsenal.  Thea could still be Speedy, the kid sidekick.  And as Red Arrow, Laurel could be the most bestest and closest partner ever to Olliekins. 

 

I wish I could dismiss it as a crazy idea but it would solve TPTB's problem for now.  BC could keep being Sara (until years down the line she dies or steps aside and Laurel takes over) and Laurel can still become SuperSpeshul!  The whole arrow shooting scene supports Laurel as Red Arrow way more than it does BLack Canary since Canary doesn't use arrows, right? 

 

If they do that, I may be done with the show.  I hate saying that, but it's not just that Laurel -> Red Arrow makes no sense, but that there is a much better argument for Thea becoming Red Arrow (and Roy Arsenal, perhaps); after all, Thea's Dad is a super archer.  There is absolutely no connection from Laurel to archery, and it's just insulting that people would buy it out of the blue against other much better options. 

 

Although, that could take care of six episodes next season where Oliver makes Laurel just sit and smack water all day long.

[statsgirl]

 

fixing Oliver with her healing vajaja.

Well, the poor guy does get hurt a lot. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they had intended Thea to be an archer and have switched it to Laurel now. Special snowflakes get everything cannibalized for them, especially when nothing seems to be working..

 

 

So my tie in to Arrow is yes, Laurel might be redeemed if she went evil or better yet, was revealed as evil all the time and then if they wanted they could break the character down completely and bring her back up and let her make better choices this time.

On Wednesday over at tvline.com, before the board exploded in Laurel-hate, Matt Mitovich suggested that 

 

Maybe, just maybe, she is the Agent Ward of this show? (Not suggesting that he’ll wear fishnets, but that a major plot twist will “flip a switch” for Laurel.)

 

Even he sees the problems.

Edited May 2, 2014 by statsgirl

[Danny Franks]

What?  Agent Coulson closely followed by Fitz and Simmons is the best part of that show.  It's Sky and Ward that put me to sleep (well until Ward went evil and now I rather like him, but the actress cast for Sky was badly, badly chosen.)   So my tie in to Arrow is yes, Laurel might be redeemed if she went evil or better yet, was revealed as evil all the time and then if they wanted they could break the character down completely and bring her back up and let her make better choices this time.

 

 

In my view, Coulson is awful. Bland, smug, capable of only one facial expression (smug smirk, obviously) and a blackhole of anti-charisma. When he was on screen, I truly found it difficult to stop my eyes from wandering to anything else. I had to stop watching that show, he was so bad. So to me, he's exactly what Laurel Lance is. Both characters are examples of what bad writing can do to already limited actors, and it's painful to watch. Coulson is worse, because the whole ill-advised show has been built around him, and Clark Gregg simply is not up to the job. At least with Arrow, there's a faint hope that Laurel will eventually piss off.

[BumpSetSpike]

 

BTW, I've seen comments here and elsewhere that said it's great that the show slowed down and let Laurel and Oliver talk about Tommy and the way Oliver lied to her. I don't exactly disagree with that - I think it was an important conversation to have - but I still don't like the way it played out.  Have Laurel give the information about Sebastian FIRST, have Oliver get ready to go out and face Sebastian, but then have Laurel stop him just as he's heading out:  "Tommy. Tommy knew about you, didn't he?"  Then have her stop for a moment and swallow.  "I'm sorry, it's a bad time." THEN have Oliver and Laurel discuss this.

 

How do we get you to the writers room?  This would have been a better scene...

[bluebonnet]

It's going to be all Laurel, all the time.  At the DA's office, at the police department, out investigating bad guys, in the new Arrowlair training, and wearing skimpy clothes and being smarter than anybody and fixing Oliver with her healing vajaja.

 

And now I've made myself sick. 

 

I actually wonder if the thought of that makes Katie Cassidy sick.  One of the things that makes CW shows fun, at least for me, is the enthusiasm the actors effuse.  Their lack of talent is made up in droves with their enthusiasm.  As a viewer, that makes a pretty big difference.  It's like being in a terrible mood and walking into a room full of happy people.  It's hard for one's mood not to pick up.  With Cassidy, she almost always appears like she just really hates her job.  I don't know how Amell, Ramsey, Holland or Richards feel about their jobs but at the very least, they make me think that they are just ecstatic to be in the show.  With how miserable Cassidy always seems, I truly wonder if she regrets signing a contract for this show.  

[Sakura12]

For me I think Cassidy is completely miscast for the role of Black Canary, it's been made even more apparent with the casting of Caity Lotz an actress that much like Stephen Amell, looks physically capable of pulling off playing a super hero. And that's added to the fact that she has actual martial arts training. 

 

As for Laurel being Red Arrow that would be as unearned as her suddenly becoming Black Canary. So not something I want to see. It's all tell not show with her and nothing seems to be changing in the writing with that. They keep telling us how amazing and awesome Laurel is and have the characters tell us that as well. But that's not how character building works. I need to see the character work at it and show me they can do things before anyone sings their praises. They've managed to do that with Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Sara and even Roy. 

 

If they want to make Laurel into someone, they should make her Manhunter, who was a federal prosecutor that was fed up of the guilty criminals getting away their crimes. She stole evidence and blackmailed people to get what she wanted or killed the criminals herself. They pretty much have set it up perfectly for her to take on that role with what we've seen on screen. All the illegal things she's done during her hunt for Blood is basically the beginnings of Manhunter.

 

We do have Kate Spencer on Arrow, but like Dinah Lance we have no evidence that she is a vigilante. Manhunter also helped fight with the Birds of Prey at one point, so she could still work with Sara's Black Canary.